Hopeless?? - controversial subject, maybe...

HeDominik85 posted:
BobbyBaseball posted:
RJM posted:

Is he dumber than a tree stump or just lazy? If he’s lazy it means he doesn’t want baseball badly enough. If he’s not very bright he should still be able to make it through the lowest level of high school or vo-tech. If he gets a GED he’s a high school graduate.

I’m not a baseball insider. But if this kid isn’t motivated enough to pass the lowest level of high school where the average graduating gpa is 3.5 what happens when he hits a challenge in the minors? 

Don’t assume Carribean players lack intelligence just because they sign at 16 and come to the US. 

So I'm not talking intelligence....  I'm talking opportunity to shine and REALLY sharpen baseball skills.  Caribbean players have more opportunity than US kids to play baseball. (I know about their life and conditions... talking baseball here, not life in general.  I get it.).  I do sense an unease in the baseball community with the rise of the Int'l player.  Not out of racism or anything like that, but out of knowing that we can play too, but somehow we are stunting our own baseball development.   I could be wrong here.  This is just a subject I'm exploring out of intellectual curiosity.

It doesn't appear that anyone has been bold enough to create a program that circumvents the high school model.   I don't know of any kid that has exclusively gone through club and "made it"...

I just don't think it is desirable. Getting a C- is not that hard. I don't think we want to encourage US kids to forget education and focus everything on baseball.

If you want to play baseball you find a way to get your C-. A few guys don't make it but those aren't high numbers.

Also all the guys already play travel, it is just those 2-3 months a year you play hs. You could replace those with travel too but honestly this is a red flag. If you throw 98 it doesn't matter but a team will ask why:

-can't you follow direction (don't play a team sport then)?

-too lazy to fight for a goal?

-ego issue?

 

I know it is different for Latin players but in the us it will always be education before sports until they are 18 and rightfully so.

90% of drafted players never make the majors so skipping school and focusing all day on baseball is just not a valid career choice.

 

According to a Dbacks GM about ten years ago 98% of minor leaguers do make the majors. Only half of those stick long enough to call it a career. He called it “rationally one of the worst job choices possible.”

The higher or lower a player is drafted places the 1-2% on a sliding scale. A first round pick has high odds of making the majors. A 40th round pick probably has a 1-2% chance of making it to high A ball. 

BobbyBaseball posted:

So it looks like I stepped into Taboo territory here....kinda.  Haha

My purpose for the post wasn’t about dismissing education.  It was more about dismissing how difficult and fleeting baseball / athletic talent can be to maintain.   A season of red card could cost a player nearly 5 mos of reps.

Now let’s consider the extreme that red cards are taken.  I don’t think I said a kid has to be dumb as a rock or lazy to get red carded.  A kid could be a average A, B, And occasionally C student and suddenly run ito a class, say physics, computer programming or calculus... that just whips his arse....  booom! 59% after the first test... booom! Red card... booom! Spiral.  

The arse kicking class thing has happen to a lot of kids... who go on to D1... but then again they might not be baseball players....  I theorize that if it happens to a baseballers at the wrong time, the consequences could be tragic.

what I’m getting at is,  does the zero tolerance (of anything) method really help or hurt baseballers / athletes?

A kid could be a good enough student that an eventual D (by the skin of their teeth) won’t hurt their prospects of getting into a D1.  BUT, the loss of playing time costs him D1 looks, MLB radar time and diminishes skill.  THAT could cost them more than the D they got.  is that a good thing or bad.   How does the zero tolerance thing play out on, skill, visibility and development... it may or may not.  But I have to wonder.  

I only brought up Int’l kids because they don’t have such hurtles.

i could be wrong here, but the whole red card thing is a fairly new phenomenon.  I’d be curious of how that MINDSET would have impacted the path of MLBer of say just  5/10yrs ago.  We’ll never know....  but is the MLBs turn to the Carrabian a symptom of something wrong with youth baseball development?  I say yes..  is this MINDSET a problem overall?

my kids and I have a joke that makes light of that mindset...  when one of them swings and misses during soft toss, I say “that’s it, your NEEEVER making varsity” because of 1 bad swing....  then we laugh...

because it’s becoming true... the mindset that everything hangs in the balance, every test, every class, everything... its a bit much. 

You’re sooooooo far off base it’s unbelievable. High school baseball is an extracurricular activity. Like every other activity (including band and chess club) students have to academically qualify. 

A player is more likely to improve his play in 40-50 summer ball games than 20-25 high school games. He’s more likely to be seen by college coaches and pro scouts in the summer. If he’s a good player the summer competition is much higher quality. Not playing high school ball does not get in the way of advancing. It only raises questions that can be answered.

BobbyBaseball posted:
Buckeye 2015 posted:

Bobby....you don't seem to think a kid could "make it" just by playing travel?  That couldn't be further from the truth.  Would he at least need to graduate HS?  Sure, then he could either be drafted or go to a JUCO....but not playing for his local HS team won't necessarily matter....as long as he can at least get thru HS, even if his grades are awful.

My son was a good student, great ACT, but from a small town HS in Ohio.  He ended up with a baseball scholarship to a D1.  I will GUARANTEE you that if he hadn't played travel ball during his HS years that he wouldn't have ended up at a D1.  In 3 years of varsity baseball, in a league that's got a team that has 6 or 7 guys currently in the pros (MLB or Minors) I can tell you that we never saw a D1 guy at any of our games.  A few D2 and D3's from local schools,  but that's all.  My son played the summer between his junior and senior year in HS on a very well known travel club here in Ohio.  They had two 17U teams....and they both played at the same events.  There were regularly 40+ coaches at their weekend events.  D1's from all over the Midwest and East Coast.   You don't have to be a genius to play college baseball somewhere.

 

 

 

Your kind of right about me... I’m sceptical.  I just haven’t seen or heard of that path.... 

What cave on what deserted island have you been hiding in for twenty years?

There’s important factor Bobby is overlooking about going from high school to pro ball. A kid from our high school made this mistake.

When an 18yo signs and goes to pro ball over college he’s competing mostly with 21yo and 22yo men who came from college ball. Unless the kid  is a stud and a reasonably early physical developer he’s increasing his odds of failure. The 18yo is up against it not only physically but in maturity.

A kid from my daughter’s high school years signed out of high school as a 7th round pick. His other option was a HA ranked D1. He was 6’1” 170 competing against men. After it was over he told me it was a huge mistake. He said aside from being physically overmatched, he was homesick and lacked the maturity of others. He wasn’t old enough to hang socially with most of his teammates.  He got to the point where he found a private place to cry every night. 

After three years of sub .200 and way too many errors he was released. He could have been one year away from his junior year draft year. He would have already played in a CWS.

BobbyBaseball posted

Your kind of right about me... I’m sceptical.  I just haven’t seen or heard of that path.... 

Happens with kids from Canada all the time, no HS ball and we still wind up on College rosters, or drafted because of summer ball

If a Kid is good enough to play Pro Baseball, he'd have to do a really good job of hiding to keep from being seen by MLB Scouts.  Also, a high school kid who is enough of a stud to be a Top 10 Round pick can definitely play Travel Ball for free for multiple quality travel teams.  Lack of money is no excuse.

This is 2019.  High School is completely & totally irrelevent in terms of being a prospect.  Jarred Kelenic got drafted 6th overall, in the 1st Round, in last year's draft.   He never played one inning for his high school.  He happened to be an excellent student, but I bet if he had poor grades he might've dropped all the way to 12th overall in the 1st Round.  Maybe

If a kid isn't good enough to be a pro prospect, no amount of finger pointing and excuse making is gonna change that.   Such an attitude might also set a kid up for a life of failure, always thinking "life ain't fair" & it is always somebody else's fault.

3and2Fastball posted:

This is 2019.  High School is completely & totally irrelevent in terms of being a prospect. 

I disagree. Tons of pro scouts come to high school games to see players. Big high school events like the NHSI and Boras Classic are packed with scouts. It's true there are exceptions, but the vast majority -- like 99% -- of prospects play high school baseball. 

Same draft as Kelenic, Cole Winn moved to play high school baseball in a competitive environment. From a Keith Law chat last June:

Allan: How much money did leaving Colorado make Cole Winn? 
Keith Law: Maybe a million bucks? Getting away from the altitude, and also moving to somewhere scouts would see him more often. 

RJM posted:
BobbyBaseball posted:
Buckeye 2015 posted:

Bobby....you don't seem to think a kid could "make it" just by playing travel?  That couldn't be further from the truth.  Would he at least need to graduate HS?  Sure, then he could either be drafted or go to a JUCO....but not playing for his local HS team won't necessarily matter....as long as he can at least get thru HS, even if his grades are awful.

My son was a good student, great ACT, but from a small town HS in Ohio.  He ended up with a baseball scholarship to a D1.  I will GUARANTEE you that if he hadn't played travel ball during his HS years that he wouldn't have ended up at a D1.  In 3 years of varsity baseball, in a league that's got a team that has 6 or 7 guys currently in the pros (MLB or Minors) I can tell you that we never saw a D1 guy at any of our games.  A few D2 and D3's from local schools,  but that's all.  My son played the summer between his junior and senior year in HS on a very well known travel club here in Ohio.  They had two 17U teams....and they both played at the same events.  There were regularly 40+ coaches at their weekend events.  D1's from all over the Midwest and East Coast.   You don't have to be a genius to play college baseball somewhere.

 

 

 

Your kind of right about me... I’m sceptical.  I just haven’t seen or heard of that path.... 

What cave on what deserted island have you been hiding in for twenty years?

No need to be hostile.  I told you at the beginning, I’m opened a controversial discussion, partly being provacative to advance the conversation. Partly to collect thoughts.  Calm down sir.... 😂  

RJM posted:

There’s important factor Bobby is overlooking about going from high school to pro ball. A kid from our high school made this mistake.

When an 18yo signs and goes to pro ball over college he’s competing mostly with 21yo and 22yo men who came from college ball. Unless the kid  is a stud and a reasonably early physical developer he’s increasing his odds of failure. The 18yo is up against it not only physically but in maturity.

A kid from my daughter’s high school years signed out of high school as a 7th round pick. His other option was a HA ranked D1. He was 6’1” 170 competing against men. After it was over he told me it was a huge mistake. He said aside from being physically overmatched, he was homesick and lacked the maturity of others. He wasn’t old enough to hang socially with most of his teammates.  He got to the point where he found a private place to cry every night. 

After three years of sub .200 and way too many errors he was released. He could have been one year away from his junior year draft year. He would have already played in a CWS.

This is good info...  here’s the thing.  I started this conversation about baseball development.  It was not started to say education wasn’t important but about loss of playing time and its affect on development.  Was probing to see if other creative methods to help kids get better grades without hurting development would come out.  I wanted to see where we are in that regard.  Seems to me that we do lack creativity in this regard.   I suppose that’s why stand and deliver movies are so popular...

So... is a kid like this better off NOT playing HS and concentrating on grades while playing spring travel (which is usually only weekends).  Is he better off doing that because he doesn’t have practice every day and can focus on tutoring or whatever?  Does this hurt his prospects for being drafted or sought after by Colleges because “there are questions about him not playing HS”?

I suspect (I can be wrong) the same people who are getting riled up about my presumed focus on baseball over education (which is wrong), are the same folks that would ask; “why isn’t this kid playing for his HS team, is he selfish, a non team player? Etc.”

As a follow-up:  part of that conversation I was having with another parent about this kid was about how much his skills had slipped.  His Frosh year, he hit 5 HRs and batted +.400 on JV.  Played a good game..  pitched/1st base...was good.  His soph year, he was slated to play Var but was red carded the whole year for one class.  This year, on var, his skills have greatly diminished. What a shame was the crux of the conversation...   He barely plays club ball because of money and, frankly, timid parents who probably don’t go to bat for him.

i can’t help but wonder, how much impact did not playing and the stigma of the red card have on his baseball development?

My son asked A few weeks ago....  “what happen to ______? He was really good... now he struggles. It’s like we left him behind...” 

This is where this post came from.....

 

If he doesn’t play in the spring recruiting coaches will ask why. The first concern is the coach didn’t want him on the team for character reasons. Second would be academics. If a kid is academically struggling through high school a coach will be concerned he can manage college academics. The time demands of college ball are rigorous. So rigorous my kids almost never got eight hours of sleep in a night. 

My kid’s day started early before 8am classes with swimming for upper body strength. They had classes from 8-12. They had practice in the afternoon. They had strength and agility training in the early evening. Then they had homework until midnight. They got up at 6am and did it all over again the next day. What I didn’t put in this schedule is meals and a little bit of socializing.

They considered the season down time compared to the fall. The season just involved bus travel interrupting life. Mid week bus travel is more disruptive than weekend. But doing homework on a long bus ride and getting back to campus at midnight to 2am Sunday night is fatiguing when there’s class at 8am. 

BobbyBaseball posted:

As a follow-up:  part of that conversation I was having with another parent about this kid was about how much his skills had slipped.  His Frosh year, he hit 5 HRs and batted +.400 on JV.  Played a good game..  pitched/1st base...was good.  His soph year, he was slated to play Var but was red carded the whole year for one class.  This year, on var, his skills have greatly diminished. What a shame was the crux of the conversation...   He barely plays club ball because of money and, frankly, timid parents who probably don’t go to bat for him.

i can’t help but wonder, how much impact did not playing and the stigma of the red card have on his baseball development?

My son asked A few weeks ago....  “what happen to ______? He was really good... now he struggles. It’s like we left him behind...” 

This is where this post came from.....

 

The impact not playing had was probably taking away some of the hunger for the game. If he didn’t play summer ball it was a big mistake. There are a lot of potential recruits on the diamond for D1 and pro. No one is bigger than the game. This kid sounds like a big red flag. 

RJM posted:
BobbyBaseball posted:

As a follow-up:  part of that conversation I was having with another parent about this kid was about how much his skills had slipped.  His Frosh year, he hit 5 HRs and batted +.400 on JV.  Played a good game..  pitched/1st base...was good.  His soph year, he was slated to play Var but was red carded the whole year for one class.  This year, on var, his skills have greatly diminished. What a shame was the crux of the conversation...   He barely plays club ball because of money and, frankly, timid parents who probably don’t go to bat for him.

i can’t help but wonder, how much impact did not playing and the stigma of the red card have on his baseball development?

My son asked A few weeks ago....  “what happen to ______? He was really good... now he struggles. It’s like we left him behind...” 

This is where this post came from.....

 

The impact not playing had was probably taking away some of the hunger for the game. If he didn’t play summer ball it was a big mistake. There are a lot of potential recruits on the diamond for D1 and pro. No one is bigger than the game. This kid sounds like a big red flag. 

On the upside, he has another 2 yrs to get it back.    

This whole thread is strange. 

He's a draft worthy prospect that doesn't play much summer ball, but is also about to miss his second season of HS ball and it looks like he's no longer progressing as a player?

I will say this. The top position players that are draft prospects, play on the summer circuit and hit 90+ consistently all summer. That is how they become draft prospects - since not enough guys in HS ball throw 90+ to confirm the talent. 

I doubt this kid is a pro talent, but for my final thoughts. I don't think there is a problem with the US developmental system, I think there is a problem with this kid's home situation. I don't think any spring league would've helped. He either couldn't help himself or those around him failed him miserably. 

PABaseball posted:

This whole thread is strange. 

He's a draft worthy prospect that doesn't play much summer ball, but is also about to miss his second season of HS ball and it looks like he's no longer progressing as a player?

I will say this. The top position players that are draft prospects, play on the summer circuit and hit 90+ consistently all summer. That is how they become draft prospects - since not enough guys in HS ball throw 90+ to confirm the talent. 

I doubt this kid is a pro talent, but for my final thoughts. I don't think there is a problem with the US developmental system, I think there is a problem with this kid's home situation. I don't think any spring league would've helped. He either couldn't help himself or those around him failed him miserably. 

The point of the thread wasn’t the kid...  I never said he was a prospect,  I was talking potential and hypothetically putting him somewhere else.   He could have been further in his development and turned into a prospect....   so the point was... are we arresting development with some policies?... and is there another way, for someone like him or the system...

but your probably right about his situation.   To you point on 90+ Plenty of prospects are prospects for their hitting.  Although some other tool likely needed to accompany it... I’m sure.

Has he always been a poor student or is this something new. Poor grades don't always equate to laziness or a learning disorder. Personal issues, peer issues, alcohol, drugs, or even some form of abuse can lead to poor grades. Perhaps a few sessions with a therapist can shed further light on the subject.

My own son, a 7th grader, is a prime example. He's been an honor roll student all of his life and takes all advanced placement courses. But his grades this year have been terrible. If not for taking weighted AP courses he probably would not be eligible to play this season. I won't go into details other than saying that for some kids the teen years can be emotionally hard for any number of reasons and sometimes seeking someone to talk to outside of family and school can be a great benefit.

As for the player you mentioned, if "none of the above" in these posts fit and he can't afford travel ball there may be American Legion baseball in your area.

As for Latin American ball, it's not much different than sports in poor neighborhoods in the U.S. where education is undervalued because sports as seen as a quick fix to money woes. And from what I've read exploitation of baseball players is rampant in those countries. That being said, showcases here in the U.S. - with all of the money and costs involved - are our version of player (and paying parent) exploitation.

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