ILVBB,
I'm sure your baseball experience is vast and distinguished, and thanks for so clearly breaking down the two reasons why kids get hurt in baseball. "Inadequate training or lack of experience" is what you write. You are correct - sometimes. Kids make mistakes and get injured. You are correct again in stating that size is not a factor.
Hold on, wait, maybe not.
If a baseball is struck by let's say a 6-1, 210 pound newly turned 13-year old still playing on a diamond that has a 45-foot pitching distance and 60-foot bases right at a 11-year old who is 5-3 and 91 pounds, well then the size difference very well could be a factor, couldn't it? Hmmm, sounds like one for a physics professor or physiologist and could well be infinitely beyond the ambit of a guy from Northern California whose son plays for a quality D-3 in Texas.
While you have every right to call my premise "stupid," it does not change the fact that having a more than 200-pound batter holding a 31-inch, 20 ounce bat (that's minus-11, even the stupid can subtract) swinging with all the might he can muster with the fast-twitch fibers in an overdeveloped body firing is fundamentally dangerous. Sorry if this opinion flies in the face of your vast experience and expertise.
The laws of physics are not based on poor training or freak accidents. I pray I never have the opportunity to come back on this board to find you after some Little League giant rockets one off the skull of a physically average-for-his-age pitcher to tell you I was right.
Having had some experiance with oversize player's on the field of play for 12/13yr old's. Here's my 2 cent's.
It's not uncommon to have player's that are 5'11" 180#
That can really swing the bat.
Going against player's 5'2" 110#
And all you can do is just Cringe each time the came up to bat,
Hoping nobody get's hurt.
Safety is the overriding priority here.
But I'm not sure if stopping player's because of size is the Answer.
I would be upset if my son was not allowed to play, But
I would also find a place that he could devolep with older player's.
6'8" 250# though would be tough to find any place that said player would fit in.
Remember this is LL and the rules state, only age is the factor on whether you play are not.
Same goes for most organized youth baseball.
Is there an answer, I don't know.
I just sit back and Cringe. EH
It's not uncommon to have player's that are 5'11" 180#
That can really swing the bat.
Going against player's 5'2" 110#
And all you can do is just Cringe each time the came up to bat,
Hoping nobody get's hurt.
Safety is the overriding priority here.
But I'm not sure if stopping player's because of size is the Answer.
I would be upset if my son was not allowed to play, But
I would also find a place that he could devolep with older player's.
6'8" 250# though would be tough to find any place that said player would fit in.
Remember this is LL and the rules state, only age is the factor on whether you play are not.
Same goes for most organized youth baseball.
Is there an answer, I don't know.
I just sit back and Cringe. EH
nd943 - You need to do some research before you make a statement like that. Besides sports related lawsuits, who would have thought someone could sue for a million dollars and win because they were so stupid they spilled hot coffee on themselves. Hello, read the papers.
I would suggest that you keep in mind that a 12/13 year old who is 6-8/260 has no idea what his body is doing---did you watch the kid play?
Much ado about nothing in my mind
Much ado about nothing in my mind
no-e2
Most lawyers follow the law. There were golf clubs/golf balls laying around my school and no teachers supervising. One kid hit the ball which deflected off a metal pole and hit me in the eye while I was playing basketball. My eye was instantly swollen, one of the ugliest things I've ever seen. I went to the hospital in my city and they made me go to Boston because they could tell it was serious. I fractured the side of my nose and had bleeding inside my eye. My eye was swollen shut, but when I opened it all I could see was yellow from the blood. It was very scary, I thought I'd never be able to play baseball again. They told me to stay in bed all day for the next 4 days, very boring for a kid who likes to stay active. After that they said I could walk around, but couldn't do any strenuous activity, which meant no lifting. I didn't get cleared to play till a week before tryouts. My mom wanted to sue the school for the money she lost at the hospital, time missed from work, etc, which is a lot of money. The lawyer didn't want to sue the school because there is no law saying the school is at fault.
As for this thread, I completely agree with TRhit on this one. There's a kid in my school that's 6-5 and didn't have any coordination at all untill he was at least 15.
Most lawyers follow the law. There were golf clubs/golf balls laying around my school and no teachers supervising. One kid hit the ball which deflected off a metal pole and hit me in the eye while I was playing basketball. My eye was instantly swollen, one of the ugliest things I've ever seen. I went to the hospital in my city and they made me go to Boston because they could tell it was serious. I fractured the side of my nose and had bleeding inside my eye. My eye was swollen shut, but when I opened it all I could see was yellow from the blood. It was very scary, I thought I'd never be able to play baseball again. They told me to stay in bed all day for the next 4 days, very boring for a kid who likes to stay active. After that they said I could walk around, but couldn't do any strenuous activity, which meant no lifting. I didn't get cleared to play till a week before tryouts. My mom wanted to sue the school for the money she lost at the hospital, time missed from work, etc, which is a lot of money. The lawyer didn't want to sue the school because there is no law saying the school is at fault.
As for this thread, I completely agree with TRhit on this one. There's a kid in my school that's 6-5 and didn't have any coordination at all untill he was at least 15.
Sorry you were injured.
You need another lawyer. The school has a responsibility to maintain a safe environment for all students. The person who struck the golf ball may have acted in a manner to be examined. The school has insurance protecting itself in this type of case. Your mom probably should pursue the matter more extensively.
Both you and TR completely miss my point on the LL size situation. It's not about one big kid on a Saudi team. It's about the dangers of the vast size differencial of players on a small field.
You need another lawyer. The school has a responsibility to maintain a safe environment for all students. The person who struck the golf ball may have acted in a manner to be examined. The school has insurance protecting itself in this type of case. Your mom probably should pursue the matter more extensively.
Both you and TR completely miss my point on the LL size situation. It's not about one big kid on a Saudi team. It's about the dangers of the vast size differencial of players on a small field.
Although I know the school was responsable that's just not how the law works. The lawyer's trying to see if there were any cases in the state that have been similar to see what the outcome is, but that's not important to this thread.
I understand the size differential, I just don't think it's fair. What do the bigger kids do? A lot of them are just big, but not really that good. They don't belong in a league with older kids because the kids are more developed and better than them.
I understand the size differential, I just don't think it's fair. What do the bigger kids do? A lot of them are just big, but not really that good. They don't belong in a league with older kids because the kids are more developed and better than them.
The balance here is fairness vs. safety. Having a huge kid play up one level with players his own size on a larger playing area, to me, is the better choice when the other is having overdeveloped 13s rocketing shots at 90 pound 11 year olds.
I think you can change the age limit, but not have a weight limit. You would force a bigger kid to play in a league where kids are older and better than him. It's not fair to the big kids. Little League really messed up by changing the cut off date. The difference between 12 and 13 years old is huge. The only thing I think they can and should do is make the field bigger.
Went to watch some 7th grade footall on Sat where one team was a freak show, 4 kids over 200 lbs who where playing the line on both sides of the ball. At the end of the game there were 2 big guys standing and two others were on the sideline after being de-cleated on blindside shots by guys more than half their size. My point is that if you are unprepared for a shot regardless if it's a line drive in baseball or a block in football, the size of the giver is not the issue. If I was a kid I would rather face a 6'8" 260lb kid who may get lucky and launch a ball that may replace Pluto as a planet, than a coordinated, well conditioned, hand-eye, player who was my same size. Size does not cause or prevent baseball injuries.
Maybe to be fair to those kids who grow faster an L-screen should be used on all LL fields and if the ball touches the screen it could be either an
A. Automatic out
B. Do Over
c. Live Ball
That is a tongue-in-cheek suggestion however it would satisfy that safety issues, weight limits do not.
Maybe to be fair to those kids who grow faster an L-screen should be used on all LL fields and if the ball touches the screen it could be either an
A. Automatic out
B. Do Over
c. Live Ball
That is a tongue-in-cheek suggestion however it would satisfy that safety issues, weight limits do not.
baseballdad
you miss my point---most kids that size in LL are not a danger to anyone but themselves--they are not even coordinated---our world has to begin getting real and stop trying to change everything every time one thing appears to be different from what we are used to.
Nowadays anytime anyone sees something different they cry out for change
Would you change rules for Randy Johnson or Frank Thomas ? They are not the normal sized MLB player are they !!!!
you miss my point---most kids that size in LL are not a danger to anyone but themselves--they are not even coordinated---our world has to begin getting real and stop trying to change everything every time one thing appears to be different from what we are used to.
Nowadays anytime anyone sees something different they cry out for change
Would you change rules for Randy Johnson or Frank Thomas ? They are not the normal sized MLB player are they !!!!
And then when this is done, maybe they need to have the 90 pound 11 year olds play down with players their own size.
Sounds ridiculous right?
We can argue forever about whether size is important (
) but the fact is, the field needs to be enlarged. Not only because of size of players, but also due to technology improvements of equipment, physical development and skills improvement, etc.
I have enjoyed watching the WS. I think too much attention is being made about the large players while many of the powerful hitters have been "normal" size. Also, people are blaming the age change for this. In some cases this is true, but again, many of the better players are still 12, for example the LH Pitcher from GA that has something like 54 homeruns in games. Also, what about the 13 year old that was 5'1 and 91 pounds. Most likely, this player was too small to make an impact the last 2 years and this gave him a chance.
I do not expect the field to change. I believe there is something like 7,000 Little Leagues worldwide. Think of the expense involved in rebuilding all the fields. Many of the people that work on and maintain the fields. Not only do they probably not have the time to rebuild, but also the ability or knowledge.
Unfortunately, I do not think anything will be done until LL is pretty much forced to make changes either by public sentiment or someone gets hurt and they have to cover their .....
Sounds ridiculous right?
We can argue forever about whether size is important (
) but the fact is, the field needs to be enlarged. Not only because of size of players, but also due to technology improvements of equipment, physical development and skills improvement, etc.I have enjoyed watching the WS. I think too much attention is being made about the large players while many of the powerful hitters have been "normal" size. Also, people are blaming the age change for this. In some cases this is true, but again, many of the better players are still 12, for example the LH Pitcher from GA that has something like 54 homeruns in games. Also, what about the 13 year old that was 5'1 and 91 pounds. Most likely, this player was too small to make an impact the last 2 years and this gave him a chance.
I do not expect the field to change. I believe there is something like 7,000 Little Leagues worldwide. Think of the expense involved in rebuilding all the fields. Many of the people that work on and maintain the fields. Not only do they probably not have the time to rebuild, but also the ability or knowledge.
Unfortunately, I do not think anything will be done until LL is pretty much forced to make changes either by public sentiment or someone gets hurt and they have to cover their .....
TR,
No I didn't miss your point. There is a danger when there is an enormous disparity in size and physical strength in a condensed environment. How about if the 265 pound kid fell on a 90 pound shortstop? That would be an even more likely scenario with your uncoordinated theory, wouldn't it? ASU Ram points out the advancements in technology pertaining to the composition of bats. That is my point. I believe there is a danger. That's all.
I find your Randy Johnson and Frank Thomas analogy juvenile and condescending. I'm talking about Little League. If you really want an answer, let me know.
No I didn't miss your point. There is a danger when there is an enormous disparity in size and physical strength in a condensed environment. How about if the 265 pound kid fell on a 90 pound shortstop? That would be an even more likely scenario with your uncoordinated theory, wouldn't it? ASU Ram points out the advancements in technology pertaining to the composition of bats. That is my point. I believe there is a danger. That's all.
I find your Randy Johnson and Frank Thomas analogy juvenile and condescending. I'm talking about Little League. If you really want an answer, let me know.
Baseballdad1228, I understand your concern, but a huge can of worms would be opened by adding a size or weight rule. This problem of size difference just can't be solved with a few simple rules like in football. When my son was eight years old he played in a small town without many kids available. The Little League combined players from 9-12 years old and still only had enough players for 4 teams. And we were not the only town that had to do this. Because my son didn't turn 9 until June, he was 8 years old and facing stud 12 year olds when he was at the plate.
The beauty of this situation was that the players were able to handle this situation all by themselves without any parental interference. When an overmatched batter would come to the plate the pitcher would take it easy on that batter. I saw it many, many times. The one rule the League did have was that 9 year olds were not allowed to pitch.
I am guessing, Baseballdad1228, that your son held back on throws now and then during Rec ball in his younger days when throwing to a fielder with questionable glove skills.
The other problem is talent. It doesn't only come in big packages. Small to mid-size kids can bring plenty of heat and power. I ran into a guy on the ball field and he told me his big moment as a Little Leaguer was when he was 11 years old and played at the North Edison complex. On the main field, where the clubhouse is, he hit a ball onto the roof of the firehouse behind the outfield fence. He was a lefty and to this day is not even 6 feet tall. He is stocky though.
Size(and age) mismatches happen tens of thousands of times in small towns all across the country every spring in Rec Ball, where kids as a whole are not as talented as the All-Star competition we see on TV. I can honestly say that I do not hear any stories about little Johnny getting really hurt by another kid simply because he was big. The smaller and less talented kids will avoid contact with the big kids and the big kids don't look to hurt the smaller kids. They just play ball. And that's exactly what we should let them do.
The beauty of this situation was that the players were able to handle this situation all by themselves without any parental interference. When an overmatched batter would come to the plate the pitcher would take it easy on that batter. I saw it many, many times. The one rule the League did have was that 9 year olds were not allowed to pitch.
I am guessing, Baseballdad1228, that your son held back on throws now and then during Rec ball in his younger days when throwing to a fielder with questionable glove skills.
The other problem is talent. It doesn't only come in big packages. Small to mid-size kids can bring plenty of heat and power. I ran into a guy on the ball field and he told me his big moment as a Little Leaguer was when he was 11 years old and played at the North Edison complex. On the main field, where the clubhouse is, he hit a ball onto the roof of the firehouse behind the outfield fence. He was a lefty and to this day is not even 6 feet tall. He is stocky though.
Size(and age) mismatches happen tens of thousands of times in small towns all across the country every spring in Rec Ball, where kids as a whole are not as talented as the All-Star competition we see on TV. I can honestly say that I do not hear any stories about little Johnny getting really hurt by another kid simply because he was big. The smaller and less talented kids will avoid contact with the big kids and the big kids don't look to hurt the smaller kids. They just play ball. And that's exactly what we should let them do.
For all of you who say a problem does not exist, I can give you some examples. On a LL field, at age 11 my son hit the ball so hard that it hit the pitcher in the belly and stuck there. He was collapsed in a heap and had to be taken out of the game. (Son was out because even after the pitcher fell, the ball was still stuck in his gut.)
The next fall, son was pitching, threw a hard fast ball high and tight. Batter froze like a deer in headlights and before he could react, he was on the ground in a pool of blood, minus 2 molars.
Shall I continue? The denial of a problem is upsetting to me.
THE FIELD IS TOO SMALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The next fall, son was pitching, threw a hard fast ball high and tight. Batter froze like a deer in headlights and before he could react, he was on the ground in a pool of blood, minus 2 molars.
Shall I continue? The denial of a problem is upsetting to me.
THE FIELD IS TOO SMALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think it's a problem, but there's not much you can do about it. A line drive up the middle is a problem at every level of baseball. It doesn't matter if you're playing little league, high school, college, or proffesional ball, it's still not safe. That's the nature of the game.
sluggo, just curious. what size was your son at 11 and 12. I think most people here will agree with you about the size of the field, but the title of this topic is "How about a weight limit in LL".
The premise that size should be a factor in LL is wrong. LL has decided that age is the factor.
Let's just say that size is the factor, do you exclude them based upon height. Is 6' ok but 6'2 too tall. Or is it weight 180 is OK, but 200 is too much. How about short kids, is 5' Ok and 4'8" too short.
If it is safety and you measure factors that impact safety as velocity (both thrown and off a bat), lets say it is ok for a kid to throw 65 mph, but you can not through more. Or altenatively, bat speed that is excessive is not allowed.
The game is the game and kids are kids. Accidents happen, no matter how big or small kids are.
If you want to change the game by changing the field or limiting access you are doing the game and society a disservice.
Let's just say that size is the factor, do you exclude them based upon height. Is 6' ok but 6'2 too tall. Or is it weight 180 is OK, but 200 is too much. How about short kids, is 5' Ok and 4'8" too short.
If it is safety and you measure factors that impact safety as velocity (both thrown and off a bat), lets say it is ok for a kid to throw 65 mph, but you can not through more. Or altenatively, bat speed that is excessive is not allowed.
The game is the game and kids are kids. Accidents happen, no matter how big or small kids are.
If you want to change the game by changing the field or limiting access you are doing the game and society a disservice.
LL is very simplistic in its registration rules. Your age and residence is all that determines the league and division you play in. I appreciate the issues brought by the kid now and then who is off the growth charts, but to change all the rules for the exception 
Besides, not sure if this is an issue here, but this is a transitional year for LL as they changed the age groupings so they no longer run from August 1 of a given year to July 31 of the next.
I think it now runs from from May 1 to the next April 30. With that said, kids whose birthdays fall in the "changed" time period were given the option to move up or stay back and play as a 12 year old again this year. With that, if this particular young man is affected by this, he may well be 13 and nearing 14.
In the past, as the allstar tournament/world series goes well into the summer, many 12s were actually 13 before tournament ended (or 27 in the case of Danny Almonte
).
So, again, if this kid's birthday is in that May-August period, he may have stayed back to play again as a 12 but may well be 13 nearing 14.
As this year break down takes affect beyond this transition year, such things would not happen again in the future.
Besides, not sure if this is an issue here, but this is a transitional year for LL as they changed the age groupings so they no longer run from August 1 of a given year to July 31 of the next.
I think it now runs from from May 1 to the next April 30. With that said, kids whose birthdays fall in the "changed" time period were given the option to move up or stay back and play as a 12 year old again this year. With that, if this particular young man is affected by this, he may well be 13 and nearing 14.
In the past, as the allstar tournament/world series goes well into the summer, many 12s were actually 13 before tournament ended (or 27 in the case of Danny Almonte
). So, again, if this kid's birthday is in that May-August period, he may have stayed back to play again as a 12 but may well be 13 nearing 14.
As this year break down takes affect beyond this transition year, such things would not happen again in the future.
HeyBatter
My objection is to limiting access to sport based upon physical attributes.
It is my understanding that all of youth baseball (not just LL) did it to allow greater participation, especially in the older age groups.
At the LL level, your assesment that it allows 13 year olds (some near 14) to become more prevelent.
It was interesting that they moved the fences back at the LLWS. The question that arises is whether other "rule" changes are waranted.
Changing the field, equipment, ball or other aspects of the LL game may make sense.
However, to exclude anyone based upon physical attributes is wrong.
My objection is to limiting access to sport based upon physical attributes.
It is my understanding that all of youth baseball (not just LL) did it to allow greater participation, especially in the older age groups.
At the LL level, your assesment that it allows 13 year olds (some near 14) to become more prevelent.
It was interesting that they moved the fences back at the LLWS. The question that arises is whether other "rule" changes are waranted.
Changing the field, equipment, ball or other aspects of the LL game may make sense.
However, to exclude anyone based upon physical attributes is wrong.
ILVBB
Is there more than one person using your name on the board? You flipped positions in less than an hour.
quote:If you want to change the game by changing the field or limiting access you are doing the game and society a disservice.
quote:Changing the field, equipment, ball or other aspects of the LL game may make sense.
Is there more than one person using your name on the board? You flipped positions in less than an hour.
ILVBB- Never said anything about limiting anyone, in fact I don't know how that would/could be done. I see no problem with age groupings being the guide as it has been.
Just pointing out that this year is an aberration. LL has changed it's age groupings for the first time ever this season and so this year there are some odd things going on with kids who would've moved on to senior league this year but were allowed to stay back for one more LL season.
My guess is this young man is one of those and so he may well be quite older than his peers and any other year would've moved on to Senior league and a regulation (90' bases etc.) size field.
Finally, my understanding of why LL changed its age groupings was so that kids would play the season under the true age i.e. so if you were 12 you'd be 12 through the LL tournament. Under the old system you could be 13 at tournament time, although classified as a LL 12.
Just pointing out that this year is an aberration. LL has changed it's age groupings for the first time ever this season and so this year there are some odd things going on with kids who would've moved on to senior league this year but were allowed to stay back for one more LL season.
My guess is this young man is one of those and so he may well be quite older than his peers and any other year would've moved on to Senior league and a regulation (90' bases etc.) size field.
Finally, my understanding of why LL changed its age groupings was so that kids would play the season under the true age i.e. so if you were 12 you'd be 12 through the LL tournament. Under the old system you could be 13 at tournament time, although classified as a LL 12.