How does Perfect game Rank players? on ability ? projections? numbers? why does other scouting services rank differently, I've spoke to a few Scouts and Agents and they said they follow PG numbers .
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
They likely rank on all three, and probably other things as well. Which is most important is anyone's guess. Other scouting services rank differently because, well, they are different scouting services. There is no magic formula, and if there was, they wouldn't give it away.
The good thing about this site is that there is a record of every discussion and this one comes up fairly regularly. Here is a fairly recent thread (from last October) where PG Staff weighs in on the rankings and how they are made.
thx , I have to setup my searching skillz!!!
No coach or scout is looking to Perfect Game to get their recruiting list, I can promise you that.
TIM2014,
How can you "promise" that? I can promise you that if a new player shows up ranked high, he will be on most every power college program's list in a hurry. Whether he stays on that list will be determined later. Same goes for the scouting community.
As always, people can find past rankings from most any year. Compare those lists to what ends up happening at colleges and in the draft. Check and see for yourself if they have been accurate. Then after you have found they are very reliable, ask yourself, why would any college coach or MLB scout ignore those lists?
We live in a world where we communicate daily with college coaches and scouts. The communication is "always" about players. We get questions like this about players they haven't seen... Can so and so play for us? We get these from some of the top colleges in the nation. If they thought we didn't know, why would they ask us?
I've heard way too often, that scouts and recruiters don't pay any attention to the rankings. That couldn't be more wrong.
The rankings are not the end all. It is simply a reference piece. But why would anyone making a living by evaluating players ignore a list of the top players compiled by people who see more players than anyone. This year there will be over 800 players that attended PG events and went on to play in the Major Leagues. Almost anyone that has seen that many future Major League players while they were in high school should have a pretty good idea of how to accurately evaluate talent.
Anyway, to answer the question... Rankings are based on our opinion of the player. The obvious is his current talent and the rankings are heavily based on our opinion of his future talent level. So it is what we see along with what we think we will see several years later. There is no perfection when it comes to scouting. Everyone is wrong at times. Whether our events or somewhere else, every player ranked we have seen. There is no other scouting service that does that, outside of professional baseball. No one else actually sees that many players. And no one else spends the money required to get this done. PG has the largest scouting staff in "all" of baseball. Over the years we have hired former scouts and we have lost many of our younger scouts to MLB clubs.
The one thing that never happens when it comes to recruiting or scouting is PG being ignored!
I apologize if any of the above bothers anyone. But it is something we take extremely serious.
Tim2014 posted:No coach or scout is looking to Perfect Game to get their recruiting list, I can promise you that.
I can promise you that a certain perfect game profile was discussed between me and a certain college coach, recently. 
I can tell you that a certain MLB agents look at PG more than any other services , and I was told to have my son attend the PG events if we wanted to get the best looks ..and prospect out there .
As a dad who just had a "pitcher" get recruited to a D1 this year with a "ok" Perfect Game ranking/score (we knew he basically didn't have much to show at showcases, as all he does is win/get outs 86mph 6'0" RHP), but with a 12 year old on the way who is a "hitter" who will stand out at Showcases, we know that it is important to get him in front of the right people, and we firmly believe (based on results that we've seen from others) that PG is one of the best avenues to accomplish this.
I can also tell you from personal experience that coaches do indeed often look at PG profiles in making their recruiting lists. My own son saw a dramatic increase in attention the week his PG profile went up. He only threw 1.2 innings and it was during the quiet period, so no coaches saw him in person at this event. However he put up a velocity number that at least got him onto some recruiting lists he was not on before.
I need to research PG to learn more. So I have a 12U Travel ball player that has good results on the mound. Removing "daddy" goggles, I get tons of compliments on his pitching and have for a few years. This is last year pitching at 50' and who knows what 54' let alone 60'...but should I get him involved with PG at this age?
Gmnk posted:I need to research PG to learn more. So I have a 12U Travel ball player that has good results on the mound. Removing "daddy" goggles, I get tons of compliments on his pitching and have for a few years. This is last year pitching at 50' and who knows what 54' let alone 60'...but should I get him involved with PG at this age?
At that age, PG tourneys are more or less like USSSA, AAU, Triple Crown or any other organization tournament. No real advantage over anything else a 12u team would do.
Actually we would very much like to see the best 12 year olds. We don't rank them or put a PG grade on them, but we still want to know who they are. We have an interest in following the top players no matter what age they are. Will any of that actually help the young player? Maybe, maybe not. Still we have this curiosity of finding out who the best are and then tracking them to see how things turn out in the future. So along with everything else, we want to keep young kids involved in baseball as they grow older. Many end up specializing in other sports because they don't understand the opportunities in baseball.
I do know that our opinion of a young player would often be much different than the opinion of his parents. I also know that many not so talented 12 year olds will become prospects as they get older. But if you could choose the 100 best 12 year olds out of thousands of players, wouldn't it be interesting to know what happens to them? Worst case, you would be wrong about most all of them and know for sure it is completely meaningless. But we have many reasons to believe, based on experience, that you would be right about most of them. If that were true, just think about the things you can do to help guide them.
Please don't think this has anything to do with eliminating fun or taking away other sports and activities. We understand that young kids need to be young kids. Going fishing with Dad is huge!
Before anyone thinks I'm nuts, I think I will admit to it. Years ago I heard there was a young 13 year old kid that set the all time local record in sprinting. I found out where he lived and went to talk to him and his parents. My goal was to see if we could get him interested in baseball. When I got to their place it was in the poorest part of town. Big apartment building with half the windows broken and the front entry door wide open. I knocked and knocked until someone finally answered. They told me the kids mom was in jail for dealing drugs and prostitution. I said where is the young kid? They said they hadn't seen him for a week or more. So later I checked with the school and sure enough he had disappeared. They said he had moved to Chicago. End of the story, wish I had known about him a few weeks earlier. I can't help but wonder what ever happened to him. I also wonder about what might have happened had we been able to get him interested in baseball and helped him grow up. It still bothers me a little that I gave up the search.
I never even met this young boy or talked to him. I don't even know what he looked like. All I know is he was an African American and he was the fastest runner at his age ever in our city. Maybe he lacked other skills, maybe not. Guess I will never know.
Maybe someday we will run across others in his situation or others with unusual talent for their age. Maybe that kid will be in a normal living situation, but just needs some guidance. Maybe the kid has wacko parents leading him the wrong way by their example. Maybe his parents aren't experienced in baseball and need some guidance. Whatever the case, it makes me feel good if and when we can help. You see, there are much bigger rewards than just making money. I don't need more money, or compliments, I need more of those other bigger rewards. Can't ever get too many of those!
How does a top 500 list in the class of 2017 have 953? Are 453 players tied?
I knew there was not an exact cutoff at 500 (more of a rounding to 500), but cannot believe that many got lumped in. I know they have finite rankings up through maybe 100 and then start grouping them in buckets of 50 (or at least that is how it is outlined in the College Recruiting rankings - each group of fifty is awarded a different point total - that the entire bottom half on the Top 1000 gets assigned 2 points followed by High Follow getting 1 point)
How did you come up with the total of 953?
19 pages +3 of 50 players listed in the national 500. Could be they are expanding out each position.
The 2017 have not been re-ranked in 3 months which seems unusual as well. Database issues?
Tim2014 posted:No coach or scout is looking to Perfect Game to get their recruiting list, I can promise you that.
Sometimes it's better to remain quiet and thought ........
c2019 posted:thx , I have to setup my searching skillz!!!
I'm guessing you are the 2019 and not the dad. Please don't take this wrong. I'm trying to help. You're on a board with a lot of adults who can help. You would be better served, and respected if you communicated like an adult and not a teen texter. It will also be good practice for communicating with college coaches in the future. Good luck in your quest to play college ball.
Gmnk posted:I need to research PG to learn more. So I have a 12U Travel ball player that has good results on the mound. Removing "daddy" goggles, I get tons of compliments on his pitching and have for a few years. This is last year pitching at 50' and who knows what 54' let alone 60'...but should I get him involved with PG at this age?
Wait until your son is locating the ball in the 80s from 60 feet. Otherwise there's nothing to show.
PGStaff posted:TIM2014,
How can you "promise" that? I can promise you that if a new player shows up ranked high, he will be on most every power college program's list in a hurry. Whether he stays on that list will be determined later. Same goes for the scouting community.
As always, people can find past rankings from most any year. Compare those lists to what ends up happening at colleges and in the draft. Check and see for yourself if they have been accurate. Then after you have found they are very reliable, ask yourself, why would any college coach or MLB scout ignore those lists?
We live in a world where we communicate daily with college coaches and scouts. The communication is "always" about players. We get questions like this about players they haven't seen... Can so and so play for us? We get these from some of the top colleges in the nation. If they thought we didn't know, why would they ask us?
I've heard way too often, that scouts and recruiters don't pay any attention to the rankings. That couldn't be more wrong.
The rankings are not the end all. It is simply a reference piece. But why would anyone making a living by evaluating players ignore a list of the top players compiled by people who see more players than anyone. This year there will be over 800 players that attended PG events and went on to play in the Major Leagues. Almost anyone that has seen that many future Major League players while they were in high school should have a pretty good idea of how to accurately evaluate talent.
Anyway, to answer the question... Rankings are based on our opinion of the player. The obvious is his current talent and the rankings are heavily based on our opinion of his future talent level. So it is what we see along with what we think we will see several years later. There is no perfection when it comes to scouting. Everyone is wrong at times. Whether our events or somewhere else, every player ranked we have seen. There is no other scouting service that does that, outside of professional baseball. No one else actually sees that many players. And no one else spends the money required to get this done. PG has the largest scouting staff in "all" of baseball. Over the years we have hired former scouts and we have lost many of our younger scouts to MLB clubs.
The one thing that never happens when it comes to recruiting or scouting is PG being ignored!
I apologize if any of the above bothers anyone. But it is something we take extremely serious.
PGSTAFF, Thanks for the great info,
So lets say the kid is ranked high as a freshman in his state, PG gives him a AA award, would the kid be on the list(some schools)? , but I've heard the schools cannot contact him until the beginning of his JR year of High school, what does one do until then beside on improving everyday?
thanks ,
c2019 posted:PGStaff posted:TIM2014,
How can you "promise" that? I can promise you that if a new player shows up ranked high, he will be on most every power college program's list in a hurry. Whether he stays on that list will be determined later. Same goes for the scouting community.
As always, people can find past rankings from most any year. Compare those lists to what ends up happening at colleges and in the draft. Check and see for yourself if they have been accurate. Then after you have found they are very reliable, ask yourself, why would any college coach or MLB scout ignore those lists?
We live in a world where we communicate daily with college coaches and scouts. The communication is "always" about players. We get questions like this about players they haven't seen... Can so and so play for us? We get these from some of the top colleges in the nation. If they thought we didn't know, why would they ask us?
I've heard way too often, that scouts and recruiters don't pay any attention to the rankings. That couldn't be more wrong.
The rankings are not the end all. It is simply a reference piece. But why would anyone making a living by evaluating players ignore a list of the top players compiled by people who see more players than anyone. This year there will be over 800 players that attended PG events and went on to play in the Major Leagues. Almost anyone that has seen that many future Major League players while they were in high school should have a pretty good idea of how to accurately evaluate talent.
Anyway, to answer the question... Rankings are based on our opinion of the player. The obvious is his current talent and the rankings are heavily based on our opinion of his future talent level. So it is what we see along with what we think we will see several years later. There is no perfection when it comes to scouting. Everyone is wrong at times. Whether our events or somewhere else, every player ranked we have seen. There is no other scouting service that does that, outside of professional baseball. No one else actually sees that many players. And no one else spends the money required to get this done. PG has the largest scouting staff in "all" of baseball. Over the years we have hired former scouts and we have lost many of our younger scouts to MLB clubs.
The one thing that never happens when it comes to recruiting or scouting is PG being ignored!
I apologize if any of the above bothers anyone. But it is something we take extremely serious.
PGSTAFF, Thanks for the great info,
So lets say the kid is ranked high as a freshman in his state, PG gives him a AA award, would the kid be on the list(some schools)? , but I've heard the schools cannot contact him until the beginning of his JR year of High school, what does one do until then beside on improving everyday?
thanks ,
Keep mind that, while schools cannot directly contact such a kid, there is nothing that prohibits them from talking to the kid if he makes contact with them. They can make offers, kids can visit campuses and talk to the staff. There is a lot that can, and does, happen with recruiting and underclass players.
Got it, tks for advice from all. A little side track here but getting emails from baseball factory for a PREP tryout going on in Glen Allen, VA. They are asking coachs to nominate 3 players from there teams. Its a $99 tryout fee.
My interest in this would only be to get the kid used to being put under the spotlight in a tryout situation. He is shy and anxious about that aspect but he needs the experience with his aspirations to tryout for JV ball this upcoming fall.
To answer a question...
We used to rank players by exact numbers. You could go back to old profiles and see a player ranked something like 2,534. Even then we realized once you get past a certain number, say 300, it became impossible to separate players. While those players were talented, it was nearly impossible to accurately say the player ranked 2,000 wasn't better than the player ranked 1,500. We only knew they were both very good players.
So a few years ago we changed the system. Every player we saw that graded out as a top 500 type was placed at exactly 500 or better. That is why there are so many 500s. After that we categorized players into groups, top 1,000, high follow and follow.
What many don't realize is the rankings are updated often. Sometimes several times a week. Then about 5 or 6 times each year they are completely studied and updated. BTW the 2017 rankings have been updated recently. But the biggest updates will happen in June, July and August. That is when we see the majority of the players.
It's impossible, but I wish everyone could experience what happens when a player shows up high in our rankings, like top 100 or 250. That is when they would find out for sure whether anyone pays attention to the rankings..
PGSTAFF am I missing something, Class of 2017 says last updated 1/27/2016?
That is probably a mistake. Or it was the last time we announced a complete update listed on the home page. Until the draft happens in June we concentrate heavily on the current draft class. Our Schedule for 2017 events gets heavy in June.
I will say that after my 2018 RHPs first PG showcase last year where he was graded as a 9 and rated below 75 nationally and in the single digits in the state, the contacts from schools and baseball programs shot up dramatically. It even opened up opportunities (both taken and not) to guest play in some big tournaments.
To say that there is little benefit in being rated well on PG simply isn't correct.
It's basically like this, the tall kids are better and ranked higher 
Numerically
bballdad2016 posted:Numerically
Reminded me of Cliff Clavin's Jeopardy answer to:
"Archibald Leach, Bernard Schwartz and Lucille LeSueur"
Cliff: "Who are 3 people who've never been in my kitchen?"
Simple, you can not trust Perfect game rankings. I know a 2017 who played on a national ranked summer/fall team who never attended a perfect game showcase. However, he did attend perfect tournaments. He is a verbal to a major or perhaps best ACC team since his freshman year of HS. He has never been ranked very high and many of his teammates have been ranked higher. I have had any MLB scouts find this very amusing. We attended East Coast Pro and Area Code Games and at both events they down played Perfect Game. All of a sudden before Jupiter, he was ranked in the top 100 for 2017. REALLY! There are still some of his teammates ranked higher who don't even start on his team....... Very interesting!! We made a choice as a family to not attend perfect game showcase events for $600 plus after being verbally committed and yes it may have cost us with MLB but I think it was the correct decision. This is why Wilson and MLB are looking at ways to overcome perfect game. I know my son's summer/fall team want to leave perfect game. Bottom line can you believe we have pay $5 to park at the lake point--really?????????
You can just as easily say the college football rankings cannot be trusted either when Notre Dame, Stanford and LSU were all in the Top 10 at the start of the season. The PG rankings are just one part of the PG profile. I would guess the scouts and coaches are much more interested in the metrics and the write-ups than they are in where the kid is ranked in his position, state or nationally.
Players who are ranked very highly are clearly not in need of PG's endorsement to say they are elite players and will be heavily scouted. But for a ton of kids who do not get a chance to play on the top travel teams, the $600 showcase fee is money well spent to get an independent assessment and measurement of the player's skills. And the page also provides a nice link to include in coaches e-mails. There is a lot more to it than the specific rankings and I'm guessing there are more of us here that have kids who benefitted from the showcase experience than those who did not.
CAVS1 posted:Simple, you can not trust Perfect game rankings. I know a 2017 who played on a national ranked summer/fall team who never attended a perfect game showcase. However, he did attend perfect tournaments. He is a verbal to a major or perhaps best ACC team since his freshman year of HS. He has never been ranked very high and many of his teammates have been ranked higher. I have had any MLB scouts find this very amusing. We attended East Coast Pro and Area Code Games and at both events they down played Perfect Game. All of a sudden before Jupiter, he was ranked in the top 100 for 2017. REALLY! There are still some of his teammates ranked higher who don't even start on his team....... Very interesting!! We made a choice as a family to not attend perfect game showcase events for $600 plus after being verbally committed and yes it may have cost us with MLB but I think it was the correct decision. This is why Wilson and MLB are looking at ways to overcome perfect game. I know my son's summer/fall team want to leave perfect game. Bottom line can you believe we have pay $5 to park at the lake point--really?????????
Gonna have to call BS on some of this. I'm going to have to have you name me two kids ranked PG top 100 who don't start for your kid's travel team before I believe it. Do some escape PG's attention? Sure, but it's rare. Interesting that you say scuts were "downplaying" PG while they are at a competitor's event. They sure flock to these useless PG events in droves, don't they?
CAVS1,
You have stated some things that are untrue. My question is WHY?
Please don't make anymore stupid comments about players ranked in the Top 100.
Obviously a guy who's disappointed with his kid's PG ranking or coverage (or who doesn't want to pay $5 to park a car). Though I'm sure PGStaff will be the first to admit they aren't perfect, they are by far the best organization at what they do. Ever been to Jupiter? I have with my son - twice. Sure doesn't look like MLB is trying to get away from PG at that event.
All of a sudden before Jupiter, he was ranked in the top 100 for 2017. REALLY! There are still some of his teammates ranked higher who don't even start on his team.......
Maybe he was talking about state/position rankings - BHP out of Montana? That said, he was accurate on the Lakepoint parking fee, but not sure why that is his closing argument as it relates to rankings. I've posted on here before about illogical rants - find it funny that he dismisses PG rankings from MLB's perspective and comes right back and says they may have missed out on MLB exposure by not attending PG - which is it?
CAV - Baseball is a very small community. If your kid is good, baseball people know about him. Don't get wrapped up in rankings and commitments..................it's all "eye wash" until they're 18+ years old.
Scouts may talk amongst themselves, but I can assure you, they will never spout off to a random "dad" about anything they disagree with in baseball.
My '18 is not ranked anywhere. For good reason, he's never showcased. PG is the first place he will attend, likely spring of '17. I live within 2.5 hours of 5-D1programs, in an area that is not supported by PG events, that happens to have 50 plus area scouts. I can promise you, they know my kid and if they feel he is worthy of putting on their board, they will.
Even, I can see the relevance to attending a PG event, when the time is right. You don't get extra credit for attending multiple events. I'm from the camp, you need to create something worth seeing.
Sorry, PG......I don't mean that in a negative way as I know you do track progression and improvement!!
My son went to a PG showcase the summer prior to his Soph year. It was run very well and it served the prupose to try and rate the players there. We had no idea what schools would be there ahead of time to scout the event but we knew to expect college scouts. He performed well and made the top performer list but we have not had the chance to get back to an event. It is necessary to be evaluated in order to get an invite to the All Star event. He has grown bigger faster and stronger and has developed much more in the past year and a half. We would love to get him to do another showcase but financially it is difficult when you have other showcases advertising what colleges will be present as well as a plethora of college camps.
The new Dead Period brings into questions the validity of third party events to showcase talent during that period when D1 colleges can not attend. Why would the NCAA make this change?? It does not help the recruiting process. In fact it further condenses the already short time frame. Does PG expect only D2 and D3 schools to attend during the Winter? Are these camps just to post the scouting notes and numbers on the website in hopes of getting attention from D1 schools that way?
The ranking system is impossible maintain without any errors, because kids grow and develop continually. The scouting must be exhaustive. I , for one, am glad that PG does this. It allows you to have a measure your kids ability against other kids in the same graduating class across the country
Jupiter this year was the first time we have attended a PG event with my 2017. I'm glad we went, was very well run and the attendance by scouts was unbelievable. I'm not sure how many were there, but I asked two of the area scouts that I know- Yankees and Marlins- and they both said they had 15-18 guys there. I think PG tweeted that the Padres had 32. It seemed to me that there were many more than either AC or ECP. It was a great experience, It was not particularly well attended by college recruiters- there were some there, but not a ton, which makes sense as most of the kids were 2017, and, for the most part were already committed.
I've resisted the urge to ask this question because I'm fairly certain it's been asked before. Unfortunately, I must not be asking it in exactly the right way to get the search feature to help me out, so I'm going to tiptoe out here and ask anyway.
If you're pretty sure your kid is a high academic D3 prospect are PG events among those you should consider? I'm well aware of the advantages/disadvantages of Stanford, Headfirst, and individual college camps, and I completely get that Perfect Game is great for the best players out there. However, because of our location Perfect Game has not been a significant factor for kids from our area. I don't know if that's because there's a dearth of talent here or because of ignorance or some other reason.
PABASEBALLDAD,
Over 300 college coaches in Jupiter this year. Those are just the ones we know of. The usual, U of Florida, Virginia, Oklahoma, Ole Miss, TCU, Arizona State, UCLA types, many send two or three coaches, but it was nice to see a lot of DII, DIII and Juco coaches this year. Also, pretty much most of the top agents are there as well.
Actually with that many kids committed, it draws a lot of colleges just to follow their own recruits. Not to mention some of the very best non committed players/pitchers are there. And there are a large number of the top underclassmen.
Many scouts and recruiters at this event don't wear their logo. It allows them to move around without being bothered. Most have complete trust in TrackMan, so they don't even have to carry a gun.
PG Staff, would you say that there's been a growth in the # of coaches attending PG events that are not D1 level?
SMOKEMINSIDE,
Go to the PG commitment page. From there you can choose any college to click on (drop down box). Go to the Ivy League Colleges to see there recruits. Each name will have a link to a player profile. This will allow you to see what those players did.
For some reason people seem to think the top academic colleges like the Ivy Schools don't recruit PG players. Truth is the majority of their recruits are PG players. Some more than others, but it's right there for anyone to look up.
PGStaff posted:SMOKEMINSIDE,
Go to the PG commitment page. From there you can choose any college to click on (drop down box). Go to the Ivy League Colleges to see there recruits. Each name will have a link to a player profile. This will allow you to see what those players did.
For some reason people seem to think the top academic colleges like the Ivy Schools don't recruit PG players. Truth is the majority of their recruits are PG players. Some more than others, but it's right there for anyone to look up.
Yeah, sorry, PG...edited my question to remove reference to Ivy just before you wrote me. Shouldn't have included them as I know the talent level is bona fide D1. I also just recalled that you don't pay coaches to be there so it's hard to know for certain which coaches are attending events or not. Sending you a PM. Thanks for taking the time to answer.
PGStaff posted:PABASEBALLDAD,
Over 300 college coaches in Jupiter this year. Those are just the ones we know of. The usual, U of Florida, Virginia, Oklahoma, Ole Miss, TCU, Arizona State, UCLA types, many send two or three coaches, but it was nice to see a lot of DII, DIII and Juco coaches this year. Also, pretty much most of the top agents are there as well.
Actually with that many kids committed, it draws a lot of colleges just to follow their own recruits. Not to mention some of the very best non committed players/pitchers are there. And there are a large number of the top underclassmen.
Many scouts and recruiters at this event don't wear their logo. It allows them to move around without being bothered. Most have complete trust in TrackMan, so they don't even have to carry a gun.
Ok. You have the data so I believe you. Just seemed to be a lot more pro guys than college. And I can confirm. My sons future coach did come down to check on his guys that were there
Going to revive this thread after the 14U national this past weekend.
First PG showcase for 2022. The workout results have been posted and the 14U PG Select players were announced and I'm guessing that in a couple of weeks those metrics from all the 2022's will be accumulated/compared and rankings will come out for this class for the 1st time.
Will be interesting to see how 2022 compares. His OF velo (83) is in the top 8% of all 2022's as was his 60 (7.09 on a soggy track which is down from a 6.91 at Vandy), however his exit Velo (78) was down from what he was expecting based on other camps (mid 80's), so that was the only downer.
BP was ok, with 3/4 hard line drives, a deep fly to RC, and several other hard hit grounders, he said it was "meh".
He went 1/5 in the games with the 2 hardest hit balls being long outs (oh well).
He received 0 balls in the outfield, but made 2 really good plays at 2nd and turned and started 2 double plays.
Really don't care where he ranks (it will provide the necessary prodding whether perceived high or low), but interested to see how he comps to kids that he's played with/against for the last couple of years.
I'm pretty sure that he'll be ranked below kids he knows he's better than, and above kids that he is not as good as.................but I've always told him, if you really want to know how good others think you are, check the email addresses in August of the organizations asking you to come play for their teams.
One thing that we did learn from this weekend is that kids are BIGGER. He is 5'10" and 170 (which is big for "normal" freshman), but here you could surely tell that he was a CF/2nd baseman. One 1st baseman was 6'4" and 225 (not sure how the football coach missed him) 
.
What's the question ?
Yeah, you stated "I don't really care where he ranks" yet the vibe of the post indicates otherwise. Don't worry about their numbers. It's just a number. Here's a good idea to see how he compares:
1) Look at the guys who are getting a lot of attention in his year group and compare his measurable to them. Is he comparable? Less favorable would indicate areas you need to work on in order to catch up (but guess what - while he is playing catch up they are working too)
2) Watch him objectively during BP and live games. During BP does he seem to generate the same bat speed consistently as his peers? Is the ball jumping off the bat? Is the contact loud? That is what turns heads. Getting a few balls measured at a showcase isn't the end all/be all. IF throwing velocity can be misleading because some players will take extra steps (poor form) in order to ensure velocity on the throw...which may or may not even be accurate. Is his footwork and glovework on par with his peers or better? Again, these are things he can work on. He's a 2022...lots of time.
3) I know I had the same kind of outlook as you when I took my son to his first (and only) PG showcase. He was written up in the scout blog notes (you will know if he turned a head if they wrote about him there), played great defense, graded higher than I expected and made Top Prospect/Team lists. We got to see how he stacked up against that particular group he was being compared to. It gave us a general idea, but honestly, we already knew about how good he was...and so do you.
What I would caution against is "chasing a grade or number." Some on here will say it matters, and it may to some schools as they get their data from a number of sources. I just don't think it matters as much as most do. What matters is being the best student and community member he can be, best teammate he can be, and enjoying the game. Pressure on these guys at a young age to be more than that is what often leads to burnout.
I have long held the belief that the whole ranking thing is more of a marketing ploy as it relates to disclosing these to the public than anything else. They don't need to do that, they can still grade them and make it accessible to certain levels of account access. But they know dads and moms will want to make sure Johnny has a higher score than Billy down the street, and psychologically it's the same thing as keeping up with the Jones.
Just let him play and have fun and keep him developing with the right coaches who are doing it for the right reasons...things will work out on their own.
My 13yo son wanted to go to a Showcase and I gave him the minimum metrics before I would part with my $. It did silence him. Now, he is interested in colleges (he has cousins that rising sophs, Jrs & Srs). I told him to look at the rosters and recruiting classes of the schools he is interested in and look at their PG profile. It has kept him both busy and more importantly quiet.
My son never attended a PG showcase....but played in the WWBA as at 14U and 17U. By the end of his 17U summer, he was ranked much higher overall and at his primary position (SS) in our state than we would have expected. I'm fairly certain that it meant ZERO to any coach he had talked to....and also got him ZERO calls from anyone outside of our initial "search radius".
The main upside is being ranked high enough with PG or PBR to be invited to the exclusive events that are heavily scouted or to provide documentation when you are emailing coaches.
New to the site. I also have 2022s who have only attended local PG tournaments (NY NJ) with their travel team. I wondered about moving forward with attending PG showcases or PBR showcases. The rankings thing always confused me as to how they determined them and what if we simply cannot afford to go to Florida etc?
They have attended a couple college camps and performed well, but it was more for the experience and to make initial introductions. Trying to figure out what next?
Still early to get into the showcases. I'd buy a pocket radar for $100-150 and see how hard they throw/exit velocity. Let them play high school. If they're not some of the better JV players or on varsity it probably isn't time to get them to showcases unless you come from a powerhouse hs program. There are some cheaper showcases that are $50-150 where you can go just to get some measurables, but don't expect to see LSU there. Let them play summer and see how they stack up to the competition and make moves based off their success. Unless they are complete studs save the money for now
Thank you for taking the time to respond. Believe me it's greatly appreciated. As we enter these high school years and they have the desire to play in college, im open to any all suggestions.
Twindad, we are fortunate to live in decent proximity to many colleges. Unless your kids want to play in college far outside of our region or they are studs (USA Baseball quality player) then I think investing in the bigger tourneys in GA and FL is worth it. Fwiw, I convinced my kid to invest our resources in his development (strength, conditioning, and bb specific training) rather than do showcases and southern tourneys. So far it has paid off for him, but the last few days of pre-cold temps has me rethinking Florida may be a good place to be in January.
From what I can tell the only 2022s currently ranked (at least for NYS) are kids that attended PG showcases. I have a 2022 that is listed in the top 5 in FB velo in NYS and was all tournament at the BCS National Championship. He is not ranked.
My 2020 has never attended a PG showcase, but has played multiple tournaments in GA and FL and was just ranked when PG released their 2020 rankings.
TwinDad, sent you a PM.
I tend to agree with NYCdad and 2022dad, I think if you are seeing them being high level D1, PG and PBR showcases are important and help with the recruiting process. If not, they may not be helpful. I would do some kind of showcase so you see where they fall with measurables.
My sons never attended a PG Showcase. We did attend PBR camp because it is required to get invite to PBR Futures Game which is fantastic. I do think it helps PG rating/ranking when you attend showcase and there are very few high rankings that did not attend showcase. It is where they focus on the numbers versus just playing. Both roads work. My son is going to P5 and was offered before Junior year so not going did not hurt him in that perspective.
Short answer is if you attend a showcase they get a good look at you. They can then grade you, and you get ranked. Now it could be that you are in the 1000+ ranking, but it's still a ranking. Keep in mind that while a kid may be ranked the number 9 2022 in the state, if only 9 kids went to a showcase then the ranking is not valuable.
Showcases are expensive. They also aren't required to play in college. Unless you have a 2022 throwing 90+ i don't see the point in attending a showcase. I've seen many MANY kids attend showcases and get mediocre scores even though they are the top local players in their age group. It's impressive for a 13u to be throwing 80 mph, but 80mph doesn't get you a good score because most pitchers get there by their senior year.
Projection can only get you so far, and 90+% of kids will not be offered college scholarships until the summer before their senior year. Of those 10% that were offered I would estimate that at least 3% don't attend the college that offered. This could be due to them not progressing like the college thought they would, the kid not having the grades, the kid deciding when he's older that he wants to go to a different school, coaching changes...etc. A lot can change from 9th grade to 12th.
Twindad, what position is your son? It could make a difference, PO or position player.
Ripken Fan posted:Twindad, what position is your son? It could make a difference, PO or position player.
PLEASE don't say he's a PO in 9th grade 
Lol no he isn't, I never understood how or why kids do that so young. I have two of them, they both are middle infielders. The one is also a pitcher as well.
Twindad posted:New to the site. I also have 2022s who have only attended local PG tournaments (NY NJ) with their travel team. I wondered about moving forward with attending PG showcases or PBR showcases. The rankings thing always confused me as to how they determined them and what if we simply cannot afford to go to Florida etc?
They have attended a couple college camps and performed well, but it was more for the experience and to make initial introductions. Trying to figure out what next?
Welcome to the site.
The general rule of thumb around here is... don't showcase until you have something to show. That mostly means throwing velocity, exit velocity and sprint speed. For younger guys (like yours), you really need to be "elite" in one or more of those categories to make it worthwhile. For juniors and seniors it's more about documenting your numbers so that recruiters can figure out where you fit in.
Ranking is not particularly important for most kids. Something like 20,000 freshman play college baseball every year. The vast majority will not be ranked anywhere.
You probably have one or more D1 schools within an hour's drive of your home. Check their websites for fall "World Series" events. Those are end of fall season intrasquad games. Take your boys to watch, even if they aren't interested in the school. That will give them an idea of what college baseball looks like. Have them focus on the size (musculature, not just height), athleticism, and speed of the players. Those characteristics are often what separate the difference levels of college baseball. Should be a fun day with your boys if you can find one.
Midatlanticdad,
Thank you!
Welcome to the site. I suggest you spend some time on here going through the old posts. There is lots of information on here regarding the recruiting process. As a 2022 you are early, which is good. Use the next couple of years to educate yourself. Your sons need to focus on academics followed by baseball. Feel free to ask questions. Folks who post on this website come from all backgrounds, from parents whose kids never made it to the college level to parents whose kids skipped college to go right to the pros.
TwinDad, welcome to the site. One thing you might want to do is to look at the specific measurables of 2022s who did PG showcases and got good scores (say, 8.5 or higher). Compare your boys' measurables to those, and see where your boys would stack up. If your sons would get a good score, it may be worth your time and money. My son's HS team has a couple of 2022s who did a showcase ~6 months ago (as 8th graders), and they both got very high scores -- in that case, I think it's worth it, even at a young age.
P.S. -- full disclosure: my 2019 never did a showcase.
My son just attended his first showcase. He is a young 2022 (14 years 3 months)
His numbers were 60 7.47, OF velo 80, INF velo 77, Catching velo 72, pop 2.1,
He is a switch hitter (exit velo 76) and his results were all above average for his Grad class.
Any idea what his grade may be? Thanks for the help!
Coletrain14 posted:My son just attended his first showcase. He is a young 2022 (14 years 3 months)
His numbers were 60 7.47, OF velo 80, INF velo 77, Catching velo 72, pop 2.1,
He is a switch hitter (exit velo 76) and his results were all above average for his Grad class.
Any idea what his grade may be? Thanks for the help!
I'd guess 7.5 or 8.0.
Coletrain14 posted:My son just attended his first showcase. He is a young 2022 (14 years 3 months)
His numbers were 60 7.47, OF velo 80, INF velo 77, Catching velo 72, pop 2.1,
He is a switch hitter (exit velo 76) and his results were all above average for his Grad class.
Any idea what his grade may be? Thanks for the help!
Coletrain14 posted:My son just attended his first showcase. He is a young 2022 (14 years 3 months)
His numbers were 60 7.47, OF velo 80, INF velo 77, Catching velo 72, pop 2.1,
He is a switch hitter (exit velo 76) and his results were all above average for his Grad class.
Any idea what his grade may be? Thanks for the help!
I think probably 7.5. A lot is tied to velo. There is a chart (maybe even in this string) that is pretty accurate on grade according to velo. My son was 79 IF 80 off the mound at 14,he was an 8.
Thank you!
baseballhs posted:Coletrain14 posted:My son just attended his first showcase. He is a young 2022 (14 years 3 months)
His numbers were 60 7.47, OF velo 80, INF velo 77, Catching velo 72, pop 2.1,
He is a switch hitter (exit velo 76) and his results were all above average for his Grad class.
Any idea what his grade may be? Thanks for the help!
Coletrain14 posted:My son just attended his first showcase. He is a young 2022 (14 years 3 months)
His numbers were 60 7.47, OF velo 80, INF velo 77, Catching velo 72, pop 2.1,
He is a switch hitter (exit velo 76) and his results were all above average for his Grad class.
Any idea what his grade may be? Thanks for the help!
I think probably 7.5. A lot is tied to velo. There is a chart (maybe even in this string) that is pretty accurate on grade according to velo. My son was 79 IF 80 off the mound at 14,he was an 8.
They also tend to grade switch hitters and guys who are 2-way players a little higher too. I would say watch that top prospect list and if he's on it then he's likely gonna get an 8
I agree with the scores posted. Unless your 2022 has a D1 ready metric, most live in the 7.5 to 8 range. Is even 8.5 relevant for national exposure?
I'm not sure the score matters much. There are plenty of 8.5 and 9s that will not receive a single offer. If you're going for a score I'd say you're doing it for the wrong reasons.
PABaseball posted:I'm not sure the score matters much. There are plenty of 8.5 and 9s that will not receive a single offer. If you're going for a score I'd say you're doing it for the wrong reasons.
I think by height?
Showcases, camps, tournaments, etc can get expensive and time consuming. When son was in high school we did the minimal (only 1 PG showcase), mostly because I (we) were ignorant as to the process (didn't find this site until later). Our belief was if son was "good enough" they will find him. This does NOT necessarily happen. Use the scores/results as a way to measure your own personal improvements and if you compare with older participants it might give you an idea what NCAA division he may fit into. National exposure and accolades is what will boost your edge in the recruiting. It seemed that when 1 or 2 publications gave positive accolades, it was like a band wagon where many others followed, often referring to the same thing. That is why major showcases may be helpful.
I agree with the scores posted. Unless your 2022 has a D1 ready metric, most live in the 7.5 to 8 range. Is even 8.5 relevant for national exposure?
Son had a PG grade of 8 end of Jr. year. Don't let a score hold you back from reaching for something you think is unobtainable. Son had minimal college offers, was fortunate to find the right fit, successful college career, and is still playing. It is difficult to accurately evaluate a player in a few hours, with maybe 15 minute of actual demonstrating skills.
2022NYC posted:I agree with the scores posted. Unless your 2022 has a D1 ready metric, most live in the 7.5 to 8 range. Is even 8.5 relevant for national exposure?
I think that is a strong starting score for 14. It tells you he’s farther along than most at that age. Is he a fairly physically mature 14 year old? If he continues to move up, he will be in good shape.
My son is a very young 14. He is just now beginning to grow.
Then you are in good shape if he continues to progress. I would only go back when you ve seen a bump in velos.
Here's a little perspective. My son had a former major leaguer at his high school team practice yesterday. I won't say the name of the player, but they don't come any bigger. The message this guy sent to the kids was interesting. My son said he told the team he actually felt bad for them, because for their college recruiting, it's now tougher because there is so much emphasis on statistics and measurable like velocity, exit velo, etc. He said there is so much emphasis on that stuff, and not enough on seeing if a guy can really play baseball. He said he played football and basketball at his high school as well, didn't pick up a baseball until spring. In the pros, he said some guys were late bloomers and really didn't show what they really could do until they were 25-26 years old. Today, they would not be in the game any longer. Basically, he told them getting recruited for a chance to play in college is much HARDER now, as opposed to when he came up. Interesting, we think kids have more opportunities, but here is a guy who is saying all this stuff makes it harder.
That said, I remember a couple years ago my son went to a local D1 college camp, and the head coach addressed the players and parents at the start of the camp. He mentioned he would be letting a few guys that he did not recruit go because they were "showcase" players and their skills did not show up in game situations.
Yes, it's important to know what pond to fish in, but you don't really need to go to a showcase or spend a ton of money traveling to the largest tournaments to see where that may be. Get a local coach with good credentials who will give you an objective assessment of your kid's talent.
Coletrain14 posted:My son is a very young 14. He is just now beginning to grow.
My son was 5’4” 120 at fourteen.
PG scores are based on perceived potential not age. If a 6’ 14yo throws 80+ he’s going to get a very high score. The evaluators picture a future 6’2” 16yo throwing 90.
GaryMe posted:Here's a little perspective. My son had a former major leaguer at his high school team practice yesterday. I won't say the name of the player, but they don't come any bigger. The message this guy sent to the kids was interesting. My son said he told the team he actually felt bad for them, because for their college recruiting, it's now tougher because there is so much emphasis on statistics and measurable like velocity, exit velo, etc. He said there is so much emphasis on that stuff, and not enough on seeing if a guy can really play baseball. He said he played football and basketball at his high school as well, didn't pick up a baseball until spring. In the pros, he said some guys were late bloomers and really didn't show what they really could do until they were 25-26 years old. Today, they would not be in the game any longer. Basically, he told them getting recruited for a chance to play in college is much HARDER now, as opposed to when he came up. Interesting, we think kids have more opportunities, but here is a guy who is saying all this stuff makes it harder.
That said, I remember a couple years ago my son went to a local D1 college camp, and the head coach addressed the players and parents at the start of the camp. He mentioned he would be letting a few guys that he did not recruit go because they were "showcase" players and their skills did not show up in game situations.
Yes, it's important to know what pond to fish in, but you don't really need to go to a showcase or spend a ton of money traveling to the largest tournaments to see where that may be. Get a local coach with good credentials who will give you an objective assessment of your kid's talent.
That was well thought out Gary. I have to throw a caveat in there that I think you were talking about D1 schools. The funny thing is, players were drafted from D1, D2, D3, NAIA, and Juco last year.....so there are options other than D1, just not sure the kids remember that when they list Power 5 on their PG profile.
RJM posted:PG scores are based on perceived potential not age. If a 6’ 14yo throws 80+ he’s going to get a very high score. The evaluators picture a future 16yo throwing 90.
What’s very high? My son was 5’11 and 80mph and he got an 8. I don’t consider that “very high” but his measurables were in the 90+ percentile for his age. At 16 he throws 91 and has a 9.5. The grade has gradually gone up with velo. I tried to find the chart. But it was basically
75-79mph: 7.5
80mph:8
85moh: 8.5
90mph: 9
over 90: 9.5
i am unsure what gets a 10. I know 95 would get it but there are some kids with 10s who don’t throw 95+.
in our experience, that chart seems pretty accurate.
CaCO3Girl posted:GaryMe posted:Here's a little perspective. My son had a former major leaguer at his high school team practice yesterday. I won't say the name of the player, but they don't come any bigger. The message this guy sent to the kids was interesting. My son said he told the team he actually felt bad for them, because for their college recruiting, it's now tougher because there is so much emphasis on statistics and measurable like velocity, exit velo, etc. He said there is so much emphasis on that stuff, and not enough on seeing if a guy can really play baseball. He said he played football and basketball at his high school as well, didn't pick up a baseball until spring. In the pros, he said some guys were late bloomers and really didn't show what they really could do until they were 25-26 years old. Today, they would not be in the game any longer. Basically, he told them getting recruited for a chance to play in college is much HARDER now, as opposed to when he came up. Interesting, we think kids have more opportunities, but here is a guy who is saying all this stuff makes it harder.
That said, I remember a couple years ago my son went to a local D1 college camp, and the head coach addressed the players and parents at the start of the camp. He mentioned he would be letting a few guys that he did not recruit go because they were "showcase" players and their skills did not show up in game situations.
Yes, it's important to know what pond to fish in, but you don't really need to go to a showcase or spend a ton of money traveling to the largest tournaments to see where that may be. Get a local coach with good credentials who will give you an objective assessment of your kid's talent.
That was well thought out Gary. I have to throw a caveat in there that I think you were talking about D1 schools. The funny thing is, players were drafted from D1, D2, D3, NAIA, and Juco last year.....so there are options other than D1, just not sure the kids remember that when they list Power 5 on their PG profile.
He actually was not talking about a particular level of college play, just how the recruiting process in general is very focused on metrics and measurable, not necessarily if a player can actually field a ball, hit to the correct side of the field if the situation calls for it, bunt, etc. These are all aspects of the game that are hugely important at the college level in general, whether JUCO or D1. This former MLB'er also said launch angle is garbage, and it is responsible for the high strike out rates (I hear a lot of former pros say that).
Regarding options, a player should look at all options. I know I was at the point with my son during the past summer where it was basically "this is the last push for D1, if we don't have anything locked up by September we start pushing harder on D2s" and even then, in the back of my mind, I felt it was a little late to start the conversations with D2s at that point. But I had enough feedback from college coaches that we were fishing in the right pond...they were right. But as others have said...that's just the first hurdle. Get on campus, perform well in fall, get playing time in Spring and see what the future holds.
CaCO3Girl posted:PABaseball posted:I'm not sure the score matters much. There are plenty of 8.5 and 9s that will not receive a single offer. If you're going for a score I'd say you're doing it for the wrong reasons.
I don't know what this means
baseballhs posted:RJM posted:PG scores are based on perceived potential not age. If a 6’ 14yo throws 80+ he’s going to get a very high score. The evaluators picture a future 16yo throwing 90.
What’s very high? My son was 5’11 and 80mph and he got an 8. I don’t consider that “very high” but his measurables were in the 90+ percentile for his age. At 16 he throws 91 and has a 9.5. The grade has gradually gone up with velo. I tried to find the chart. But it was basically
75-79mph: 7.5
80mph:8
85moh: 8.5
90mph: 9
over 90: 9.5
i am unsure what gets a 10. I know 95 would get it but there are some kids with 10s who don’t throw 95+.
in our experience, that chart seems pretty accurate.
My son threw 91 at 16 and got a 10. But he was 6'5" with room to fill out. Pretty sure that's what made the difference.
PABaseball posted:CaCO3Girl posted:PABaseball posted:I'm not sure the score matters much. There are plenty of 8.5 and 9s that will not receive a single offer. If you're going for a score I'd say you're doing it for the wrong reasons.
I don't know what this means
JUCO
CaCO3Girl posted:PABaseball posted:CaCO3Girl posted:PABaseball posted:I'm not sure the score matters much. There are plenty of 8.5 and 9s that will not receive a single offer. If you're going for a score I'd say you're doing it for the wrong reasons.
I don't know what this means
JUCO
High on JUCO ball lately in your posts, eh?
GaryMe posted:CaCO3Girl posted:PABaseball posted:CaCO3Girl posted:PABaseball posted:I'm not sure the score matters much. There are plenty of 8.5 and 9s that will not receive a single offer. If you're going for a score I'd say you're doing it for the wrong reasons.
I don't know what this means
JUCO
High on JUCO ball lately in your posts, eh?
I am....thanks for noticing 
make funny GIFs like this at MakeaGif
CaCO3Girl posted:GaryMe posted:CaCO3Girl posted:PABaseball posted:CaCO3Girl posted:PABaseball posted:I'm not sure the score matters much. There are plenty of 8.5 and 9s that will not receive a single offer. If you're going for a score I'd say you're doing it for the wrong reasons.
I don't know what this means
JUCO
High on JUCO ball lately in your posts, eh?
I am....thanks for noticing
You are making a smart decision by looking hard at the JUCO route. What I'm about to say will not be a popular opinion on this board - but it is true nonetheless. MOST 18 year old kids ARE NOT ready for a 4 year program. They ALL think they are - but they are not. Most parents don't know enough to know any better. But only 10% or so of freshman that go to a 4 yr program straight out of HS make an impact on the program as a freshman - or even as sophomores. JUCO gives a kid an adjustment period to learn how to be a college athlete and a college student - and they get playing time instead of bench time so they get better. JUCOs are not full of kids that have bad grades and JUCOs are not all academically inferior. JUCO is a great bridge between HS and a 4 year program, and if you do your homework up front on the academics you don't lose anything. And the quality of baseball is way better than most people think. Some programs are better than others, but if you do your research you can find the good ones - and you can probably find one that is a good fit. Not to mention the fact that they are very affordable, and if a scholarship is involved they present a way to get 2 years of college out of the way for next to nothing. JUCOs are a fiscally responsible and a very practical option for a lot of families.
Adbono; I am liking the idea of Juco due to their smaller class size, cheaper price tag, and interesting baseball. I’ve pulled up the roster of many local D1 and D2 schools and about half of the kids are juco transfers.
So, why pay the 4 year college fees and probably be red shirted when you can take smaller classes for cheaper that will transfer to the school you want to eventually end up at and when you get there you will have experience and be more likely to get playing time over the newly recruited kids.
JUCO makes sense for several reasons.
Agree JUCO could have advantages from a financial and baseball perspective, but the best friends I have to this day are from college. That's because we spent 4 very important years together. Kids may miss out on that if they have to transfer to schools, etc. Just something to think about, or at least discuss with your son, before making that decision.
Baseball is awesome, but I wouldn't want to sacrifice the college experience for it, unless you're a pro-prospect and it's just a means to an end of making it to the Bigs.
CTbballDad posted:Agree JUCO could have advantages from a financial and baseball perspective, but the best friends I have to this day are from college. That's because we spent 4 very important years together. Kids may miss out on that if they have to transfer to schools, etc. Just something to think about, or at least discuss with your son, before making that decision.
Baseball is awesome, but I wouldn't want to sacrifice the college experience for it, unless you're a pro-prospect and it's just a means to an end of making it to the Bigs.
I played JUCO and I played D1baseball. I have lifelong friends from both schools. So you don't necessarily sacrifice one for the other.
CaCO3Girl posted:Adbono; I am liking the idea of Juco due to their smaller class size, cheaper price tag, and interesting baseball. I’ve pulled up the roster of many local D1 and D2 schools and about half of the kids are juco transfers.
So, why pay the 4 year college fees and probably be red shirted when you can take smaller classes for cheaper that will transfer to the school you want to eventually end up at and when you get there you will have experience and be more likely to get playing time over the newly recruited kids.
I have no problem with the Juco route and would recommend it to many. But this doesn't paint the full picture and is probably an overly optimistic outlook
I had two play JUCO.... it depends on the JUCO.... do they have a history with D1 schools? Also IF you go to a good Juco you need to make sure you are playing right away. Juco's don't have time to develop you.... IF you are a D1 talent and want to make sure you get playing time, go juco first. Most play fall spring fall spring , so it's like getting 3 years of playing in 2 calendar years. If you are a draft guy and don't want to tie yourself up for 3 years. If you grades suck and your D1 talent that cannot get in .....
Most juco guys go d1 mid major or low D1 ..... very very very few SEC teams take Juco's maybe 1 or 2 per team and some take none.