How early do scouts...

Not trying to ruffle feathers here, just a question BUT...

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I agree that you have to have a good FB to be drafted, but you don't have to have a major league FB to be effective in HS. In many cases you just have to throw hard

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All I care about is whether a guy can get hitters out, which means I have a great deal of respect for "soft tossers" like...

- Maddux
- Glavine
- Suppan
- Moyer
- Wakefield

What I am looking for are the guys who actually know how to pitch

Last I knew Moyer and Wakefield never had a good FB, aren't you contradicting yourself when you swing from one side of the pendulum to the other so quickly? You go from having a good FB to going to guys who can simply just get an out.

I do agree that many scouts won't look at guys without a solid FB, there are a few of them who do actually care about just getting outs, but they are few and far between.

Just trying to understand a few things

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Originally posted by redbird5:
Once agin you are wrong. I don't like you because you obviously don't know what you are talking about and then come on the board claiming to scout for a MLB team. I don't deal with liars and stupidity very well.

Listen.

You can disagree with me all you want, but DO NOT call me a liar.

Like it or not, I AM working with a team cross-checking pitchers for potential mechanical problems. The reason I can't say who it is is because I am obviously controversial and I haven't yet completely proven myself to them.

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Originally posted by redbird5:
You don't know where you said anything to the contrary? How does a kid with a plus FB in HS make it to the MLB without developing secondary pitches? Would success in the minors constitute learning to pitch?

He probably won't, and I never said anything to the contrary. What I said is that there's more to pitching than just blowing people away with a hard fastball. The problem with guys who have overwhelming fastballs in HS is that they often never actually learn to pitch, and never have to develop those secondary pitches, and then have problems in college, the minors, or the big leagues when they face better hitters.

If you studied the history of baseball, you will find that it is littered with the stories of guys like Todd Van Poppel and Steve Dalkowski who had great fastballs but who couldn't survive in the show because they couldn't adapt.

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Originally posted by Doc_K:
Last I knew Moyer and Wakefield never had a good FB, aren't you contradicting yourself when you swing from one side of the pendulum to the other so quickly? You go from having a good FB to going to guys who can simply just get an out.

I don't know Moyer's history, but I know that Wakefield is a converted third baseman.

What I am trying to figure out is how to identify the guys like Moyer and Wakefield (and John Tudor) who may not have overwhelming stuff but who actually know how to pitch, who know how to get guys out, and who could make it in the show.

Right now those guys are pretty much ignored by the scouting establishment and have to make it to the big leagues by first pitching in an independent league. Only then do they start to catch the attention of scouts.

Jamie Moyer Drafted 6th round Cubs 1984 out of St Joseph’s University
Made it to the Big Leagues in two years.
1st nine years MLB 59-76
After age 33… Next 10 years MLB 146-76

Obviously he learned quite a bit in his first 9 years.

Tim Wakefield drafted 8th round Pirates 1988 out of Florida Institute of Technology
He was a position player
He really is hard to study because he is a knuckle ball pitcher. Without the knuckle ball we wouldn’t know who he is. Knuckle ball pitchers are very rare and can’t be considered good case studies IMO

Tom Glavine drafted 2nd round Braves 1984 out of high school in MA.
Made the Big Leagues at age 21. He is a finesse pitcher with an outstanding changeup. He is a great example of a pitcher without mind boggling velocity being very successful. Like Moyer he is left handed as many of the top finesse pitchers are. He was/is an outstanding athlete as well.

Jeff Suppan drafted 2nd round 1993 out of high school in OK.
Made it to the Big Leagues at age 20.
He has an average fast ball, but he is far from the greatest case study. However like Moyer it will all depend on how he does in his later years. He is 111-104 with a lifetime ERA of 4.56. In 1919 innings he has given up 2086 hits, 622 walks and had 1076 strike outs. Not exactly mind boggling numbers.

Greg Maddux drafted 2nd round Cubs 1984 out of high school in NV.
Made it to the Big Leagues at age 20
Maddux might be a good example of being a finesse pitcher now days, but he was a high velocity guy coming out of high school and that is why he was drafted so high.
Everyone uses him as an example of a finesse (soft tosser) type, but he had a “great” arm. In fact, he threw as “hard” as anyone in his high school years. So if we want to find the next Greg Maddux, we should start by finding a young kid with great velocity! The let him develop as a pitcher.

Where do the MLB scouts fit into this? Have had specific team scouts visit - but now a MLB scout wants to visit.