How Important are HS-Statistics?

I would have to say that the stats were not that important. There are too many variables.For a pitcher the one stat looked at maybe walks. The "projectability"(is that a word?) of the player is the big thing. The other factor that seems more important is the recommendation network. Is the HS coach making calls on his behalf?,or his summer coach?

I would call the stats important for egos and memories and, obviously, there is a huge difference between a hs batting average or .010 and .600. By and large, however, they are virtually meaningless. It is what people see on the field that counts.

In Virginia this year, Brandon Ore, in one of the toughest AAA leagues in the state, ran for 1200+ yards and was recruited by virtually every big time football school east of the Mississippi and has since committed to play for Virginia Tech. He also is big, strong and runs about a 4.4 40. He might have been all-district, but I don't believe he was close to all-state.

Another player competes in a smaller, far less competitive conference also in Virginia. He ran for well over 2000 yards and received every accolade imaginable, including state player of the year in his division. He is smaller and slower than Ore. He went to a number of football camps at some big time schools the past two or three summers.

To date, with time virtually run out, he has zero offers. Just some mild encouragement to walk on with no promises of anything.

And that pretty much sums up the meaning of high school stats.

 For those parent's whose son is out of high school:
How did your son's high school stats reflect upon where your son is today?

For those parent's whose son is playing high school:
How important are your son's stats from year to year 

Mine is a senior. Yes I tend to agree that stat are for memories and egos although local and district awards are given based on that stat book.

We have a player. His mother keeps our book and has for the last 3 years. Who has the best batting average? Yes. You guessed it. Is he good, sure...but...

Is he going on to play baseball? No. He's not into baseball.

My son plays on a high school team that historically gets last place...good kids, lots of room to improve...affects a pitcher's ERA especially when an error gets reported as hit...

Not one...not even one coach ever talked to BK about his ERA....and such...

Yes he'd loved to have a few more awards for that jacket, but his scholarship is worth much more than any old patch...

I have plenty of memories on tape, in pictures and in journals we've kept...

Those are priceless.

The concensus of parents will say stats are over rated. Recruiters and scouts may look at them once as an indicator and then blow them off. But if they're kept, almost every kid knows them inside out. As parents we don't like to see our kid compared to others.

Every baseball level keeps stats. Many on this site who don't like kids stats, will use them when comparing pro players in debate. Baseball is a game of averages, we just need to keep the stat use in perspective.

Chicks,
you have a PM.

I think the book Moneyball answers the question about how important stats are at the college and pro level.
At the high school level it's really only meaningful for district or team awards. It's for sure, college coaches don't care about HS stats.
But I will say that when the parent sniping starts about who's playing more and why,stats can sometimes shut them right up. I never noticed this until I got the scorebook one year. It was kinda fun showing the book to parents who were ticked because there stud was not starting and were stunned to see he wasn't even batting a buck-fifty.

_______________________
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby, Hall of Famer

I agree and disagree. And no, that is not contradictory.

Without stats our son would never have been given the time of day - he is all of 5'8" - not one to gain anyone's attention at a showcase - heck, if they saw him they would find it a good time to change the battery in their radar gun.

Neither his JUCO or 4 year coach had ever seen him play before they offered him a scholarship so it was not his game that attracted them initially. I truly doubt either of these guys would have taken the time to do any research on him if he hadn't peeked their interest with his stats.

However, that is pretty much all stats do. They attract a coaches attention. Once you have his attention it is a matter of whether you can back up what he has seen on paper - in person.

Stats are deemed meaningless because at the hs level they are sooooo unreliable. That much is very true, they simply can not be depended on. Too many folks whose kids have great stats think the stats alone will make a coach jump through hoops to sign them.. They won't, and wow does this create some dissappointment - (especially for those parent who keep their stats).

However, let's be realistic, if all stats do is get them to look your way - and that is ALL - how can you call them meaningless? In some cases that is enough.

Aparent,

great post! If stats were not considered at all, then why are they asked for on recruiting questionaires. As you indicate it gives the coach a starting point.

On the other hand 2 years ago in our confernece we had the coach of the last place team put every one of his starters up for all conference awards, and had the stats to back up the claim. Their record was 2-19 in conference but every kid batted over .300 etc.

Stats are at best suspect but as you say it gives the college coaches a place to start.

Play every game as if it were your last

Stats don't get you All conference awards, the vote from the other coaches of your conference do. Stats are like some websters said a good starting point, but if you believe that a college coach is going to give you an schoolarchip based only in stats you are wrong. A college's coach may offer an schoolarchip without seeing a player play, based on recommendation of the HS coach
or other person or organization he trust, but most of the time they take a look at the player to see if the quality of the player is what the stats say.
Remember that stats don't say nothing about, intangibles, defense, arm, speed, coachability, teamwork, etc...

"Peace is, the respect for the other people's rights".
Benito Juarez

Let's throw out the importance to college coaches and scouts. We all agree it means nothing to them.

What do stats do mentally and phycologically to the players themselves? Remember these are young teenagers.

Knowledge is Power! Thank you Mavens and HSBBWEB!

Ideally, they won't mean much, because if they do then they are playing an individual game rather than a team game. And, again, I am throwing out the ultra extremes in either direction.

I will add, though, that in terms of a player setting individual goals and then working toward those goals, they can have value, but only if they are accurate and free from individual manipulation, which (as we all know) can occur easily and often. In that case, they have zero worth.

Stats will get a player All-League status. Coaches only get a chance to see opposing players 2-3 times during the season. In our league you will see many 1st team players not moving on to the next level, while several 2nd or even 3rd teamers playing in college. Not once has a college coach asked my son about his stats.....they all want to see players in person and look for the tools of the game.

HS Stats may be of little use to college scouts but I know they are important for evaluating players on the same team. After all everyone on the team is playing against the same competition. My son is on the small side and very rarely gets an extra base hit. But he always has the fewest strikeouts on the team and usually one of the top 3 batting averages. If it was not for the book, which our coach hires someone to keep, I don't think my son would get any credit for his abilities. Funny thing also is that my son has average speed but one of the better successful stealing percentages on the team. A parent was moaning and groaning one time after my son had just stolen a base wondering why he always has the green light when her son who is clearly faster rarely gets the green light. One look at the stats answered that question.

Recab,

I agree stats don't get you All Conference.

My point was that the stats are not necessarily reliable and can be cooked. This team was 2-19 yet the coach had stats showing that all of his starters batted over .300.

Play every game as if it were your last

Stats are important if you have them.

Stats are unimportant if you don't have them.

Seems like the trend here.

Are stats important. Yes
Are stats important to scouts and recruiters. Not really
Are bad stats important to scouts and recruiters. They can be
Beenthere, Good post.
Is it like other topics.
Is throwing hard important. Only if you can I guess
Is running fast important. Only if you can I guess.
Is being strong important. Only if you are I guess
Is being big important. Only if you are I guess
How many weak little, slow guys who can't throw are there with promising careers in baseball.

Doc:

Interesting post. The problem with stats are many.

1. Are they the right stats?
2. Are they accurate?
3. If accurate, are they meaningful?

The best players don't always have the best stats, at any level.

The goal is not only to get the best players, but to put together the best players who can form the best team.

Sometimes stats help in that regard, sometimes they don't.

The only thing for sure about stats is that they are very interesting, accurate or not.

Jemaz, You got that right.
There are a few stats that are more telling than others no matter who is keeping the book.
For pitchers I like K/IP K/BB and Runs Allowed. ERA can be the most misleading stat. For hitters I like SO/ABs HRs SB even though competition level and ball park size can mislead. Those kind of stats if great can atleast cause interest. None of the stats mean anything other than they could cause someone to go watch a player. I have seen .500 hitters who can't hit and 0.50 ERAs who can't pitch. Usually if someone is striking out 2 an inning and not walking anybody without giving up any runs he's pretty good. Depends on the competition of course. The better the competition the lower the number of Ks. You got to see the players thats what counts the most.

Based on my observations - if i were a college coach - I wouldnt give one ounce of importance to any high school stats.

Not one ounce.

'its"

I like the new home addy---good luck my friend

I agree with "its" --HS stats truly have no value to anyone but the kids parents.

They are not all on the same level so stats in one area cannot be compared to another.

TRhit

I agree but if you knew a kid was striking out two an inning and not walking anyone would you want to go see how hes doing it? If yes those stats have become important. If no then those stats are meaningless to you. Some other college may go look at him and see for themselves. Striking out two an inning and not walking anyone is good no matter the level. It would cause interest for me. At least enough interest to make a few phone calls.

I was in a unique situation. I was the statistician for both my son’s high school baseball team and his summer team. He was recruited by many schools and was scouted by every MLB organization before being drafted. I don’t recall anyone asking about his high school stats. Granted he was already on the radar and if he had not been would his stats drawn in any scouts? I doubt it. Most have agreed that colleges ignore high school stats. I will go out on a limb and say that pro scouts ignore them too. There is a “grapevine” that spreads the word about baseball players. College coaches, pro scouts, showcase promoters, select team coaches, instructors, baseball publications, agents/advisors, websites, and a few high school coaches are a part of this grapevine.
Velocity, control, movement, projectability, speed, arm strength, pop time, ……..the list goes on. These are the things that are important to college coaches and pro scouts..... and they are not on a high school stat sheet.
Just MHO,
Fungo

Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

I will conceed,

1) Stats are suspect at best. Most HS scorekeepers are parents who have limited knowledge and built in bias.

2) College coaches aren't going to make a decision to recruit a player based on Stats.

3) Pro-s won't make any decision based on stats.

However, if stats have no value what so ever, why does every college questionaire ask about stats? I believe, without a shred of evidence, that a college coach will look at the stats of a player he has never heard of before and say yes I will look into this player more or no I'm not interested.

And IF that is correct I think stats are very important.

Play every game as if it were your last

BigWI said:

quote:

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My point was that the stats are not necessarily reliable and can be cooked. This team was 2-19 yet the coach had stats showing that all of his starters batted over .300.

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I could see this happening. The "worst" team will probably see the other teams' weakest pitchers. What might be interesting is this teams Batting Average Against. They might be batting .300 while their opponents are .600 against them.

The better teams tend to see the other teams' stronger pitchers. This is another thing that HS stats won't reveal without a lot of investigation.

For stats to have meaning the context must be considered.

Stats are very funny things, and beenthere has it right - if you have them they are worth something of you don't they are not.

Will good stats make you all-state or all-conference etc. No (or at least very rarely). Will they bring your name up in the voting - quite possible. But, those opposing coaches have seen you play, and unless you had your once in a lifetime best game playing against them, they are going to recognize false stats. You wont' get any votes from them, and your own coach can't vote you in alone.

Are they worth while to the hs player in terms of positive reinforcement? Maybe, maybe not. Funny thing, but the top players are usually more upset by the fact they struck out than by how that will affect their average. They really don't need to know their average to know how they are doing either.

If they are in the grove and hitting or pitching well - they know it. (If they are in a slump they know that also). And ironically a true hitter won't be any happier with their hitting if you record an error in the books as a hit - it wasn't and they know it.

Stats are way too unreliable for any coach to use to decide he wants a player. I agree with that 100%. But if even one coach calls to find out about a player because of his stats they have served a useful purpose for that player.

For those who don't have them, don't despair, there are plenty of other ways to attract their attention. And in the end it does not matter how you attract their attention - only if they like what they see after they start looking.

If they're really good, stats will get you some attention, but for the most part, HS stats are for the kids only. My 2nd son, as a HS Senior, hit .462. He had 1 Homerun, 8 doulbes and one triple. Sounds like a good player, right? But he was no prospect for any level above HS. He knew it and I knew it, so his future in baseball was not his focus. His success and the team's success during his senior year was the focus.

He played at one of the smallest schools in the state and most of his success came against the mid- to lower level pitching. He struggled against the best ones, but he did get an occasional hit against them including the game winner against the top team in his district.

He hit .100 as a junior in limited playing time, and wanted so badly to have a good senior year. He wanted to play every day. He was the backup catcher and platooned at 1st Base with a Freshman. He was slow afoot, and his arm was average at best. So he was very concerned about not getting to play.

Fortunately, he was DRIVEN to play at or ABOVE his skill level. I kept telling him to keep one thought in mind; "Just hit the ball, they'll find a place for you." We took lots of BP in the fall, and eveyday I told him that same thing. It worked, as he hit 5th in the line up as a DH and 1B that year. He was named most improved player. His desire to be his best got him there. He had a great SR year, his stats were very good, but they meant nothing to anyone other that him. And I couldn't be prouder of him for his effort, drive, desire, and focus. Nobody got more out of less talent than him.

In closing, stats don't mean much.

I've talked to coaches about just this after conference meetings and the general thought is that stats carry little weight if any because of how numbers can be inerpreted. What does factor in is the political gosseling between coaches on bubble 1st 2nd team selections. In our area since it is a voting process a coach will attempt to sell his kid to the other coaches, and if need be, he may have to jump on board the other coaches kids bandwagon on a different pick. If a coach is in the doghouse with other coaches he may not have the support he needs for his players. We may think this process is not right, but I can't think of a voting system that does not practice this.

HS stats are good for the All League teams and for the scrapbook. They won't get you drafted.

I must admit after reading all the post it appears the concensis vote says that stats really mean nothing. But I bet everyone of you guys can tell me what your son season stats are at the end of the year in which he played. Also after reviewing the top 20 college's web page recruiting updates. Every university that posted a player profile listed, you guessed it, their HS stats. After reviewing every top twenty college's player profile, not ONE university had a player that hit less that 300 and most had a 400 to 500 BA or had 5 or 7 or 12 homers or had 50 rbi's etc, so it appears to me that if stats didn't matter then they wouldn't have all of this informationed need to recruit a particular kid.
Now I will admitt that they don't use stats as a final sellection method but come on guys there are kids that hit 200 playing against these studs and they weren't recruited by these major U. Stats are usually an indication of your skill, if your good the stats will reflect this. Now I know they are not use as a final method for recruiting or draft sellection but they are important measuring device to catch someones eye.
We had a kid that hit 600 in his jr year, all state, you know the deal. He was projected at worst a 5th round selelction. Well this kid didn't have great sr year, hit mid 300, no state sellection and his stats refelected his season, and by the way he went 13th round. Its a good bet that his STATS were discussed by a lot of baseball brain trust personal on that day. To me stats are not used as a final sellection but as a pretty good measuring device for one's ability. Your ability can determine your sucess, 10 million a yr vs 500 thousand a yr, 5th vs 13th round, full scholarship vs partial or walk on, D1-D2-D3 etc. To me measuring devices are important.

fc v dad

fc v dad,

You're right. Stats are a part of the process. They are not part of the initial selection process, however.

Say my kid kit .600 and 15 HR's. Send only that data to the college coaches. There will be no calls. But if all the pieces of the package are there, then the stats follow and reflect that performance. They want to know why he hit.600 or 15 HR's.

Could be strong hitter, could be weak pitching in district, could be father/mother keeping scorebook.

And when you look at the top 20 signings there ain't likely to be any .200 high school hitters there.

The college coaches like to press release the signing class information. Stats/bio information are a way that readers of the press release can get a picture of the strength of the recruits and recruiting class.

You are correct. They all hit .300 to .500, 7 to 12 HR's, played varsity all four years, were all district, all-area, and all-state.

Believe it or not its coincedental, but then again, it's not..................

My son's summer team had a "kickoff" meeting yesterday and one of the coaches invited a pro scout to speak to the kids -- just an informal chat. The scount echo'd the sentiments of many of the previous posts -- HS stats mean little to this particular organization and do not play a large part in their evaluation process.

I think baseball people "notice" statistics. It's nice to lead the area in hitting or power numbers or K's or whatever. But in the bigger picture, stats mean little. The intangibles are difficult to measure anyway.

-PD

former...I know someone who is attending a Big 10/11 school and his biographical sketch, when he first signed, was replete with errors.

He hit 7 hrs his senior year...the school said he set a school record with 13...NOT TRUE.

Said he hit 31 hrs in his career. Not true. He it 15.

He hit 4 triples during his 3 year varsity career. The school said he set a record with 14 triples in one year...NOT TRUE.

That is the "problem" with statistics. People "skew" them for their purpose (s). Who is likely to check on them? No one.

In the visits to schools, not once were the stats ever discussed in our case. Coaches wanted to see him play though.

"Everybody kind of perceives me as being angry. It's not anger, it's motivation." Roger Clemens

Sorry hit the button twice...

Two observations:

1. Our high school coach keeps all the stats, but refuses to release them until the season is over. His reasons? (1) it might allow another team to do a little "newspaper scouting" (2) stats don't show everything, like the value of moving up runners, battling at the plate , etc. and he doesn't want his players focused on stats, other than the team's W/L record.


2. My wife and I have kept, and keep, our sons' stats, only because schools will send forms to be completed during the season and we don't like to send them in blank, although I agree the value of stats is frequently questionable as a scouting reasearch tool, with the possible exception of a pitcher showing a low number of walks. (and our numbers have been extremely close to the "official numbers" released each year.)

I personally wish the coach would release the numbers during the season as I view stats as one of the many intriguing aspects of baseball, and it seems odd when all other schools get listed except ours, but he is the coach, very successful, teaches my kids a ton of baseball, and it's his bailiwick.

fc v dad,
I started to explain how this happened to my son ( the HS stats on the college profile)

quote:

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Also after reviewing the top 20 college's web page recruiting updates, Every university that posted a player profile listed, you guessed it, their HS stats. After reviewing every top twenty college's player profile, not ONE university had a player that hit less that 300 and most had a 400 to 500 BA or had 5 or 7 or 12 homers or had 50 rbi's etc, so it appears to me that if stats didn't matter then they wouldn't have all of this informationed need to recruit a particular kid.

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My son was recruited by a top D-1 in the SEC. His stats were never discussed. AFTER he signed I received a call from a "writer" at the college's sports PR office wanting some information. They wanted to know my name, his mother's name, his brother and sister's name, all the highs in his career and ...his high school stats. These were for the Public Relations and had no bearing on his signing or recruitment.
The reason top colligate players have good stats, in my opinion: If a player is talented he will good stats. . . . BUT. . . . Just because a player has good stats does NOT necessarily mean he has good talent.
Fungo

Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

I have similar circumstances as Fungo. We were never once asked about the stats before or during the recruiting process. Only after he signed did we get a PR questionaire where stats were asked. And as far as I know, not one coach ever asked his HS or summer coach for that info.
By the way, my son signed with top D1 in the ACC. His stats were decent, always managed to be consistant year after year. He played one year on JV and this will be his third in Varsity. He was never a county all star and never led his school to a state championship. However he has managed to be ranked among the top 10 players in our state.
As far as the draft I am not sure whether that is important, anyone know? My son has been told that he needs to have a "good" senior season. Have no idea what the word "good" entails.

quote:

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The reason top colligate players have good stats, in my opinion: If a player is talented he will good stats. . . . BUT. . . . Just because a player has good stats does NOT necessairly mean he has good talent.

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As usual, that was what was on my mind, and Fungo eloquizes (that ain't a word) it best.............

The coaches already know your stats when they begin the recruiting process.

Or before they offer, they find out.

Then, I think the coaches reconcile their evaluation with the stats that are available.

Beenthere, you are right, the press guys put down exactly what we told them, no questions.

Concerning pro scouting and the draft....

The pro scouts in our area rate kids on a 20-80 point scale -- at least those teams that focus on tools...50 being an "average" major league player. One area scout turns in 65 names (top prospects) from the TX/OK/AR/KA area to his team each spring.

An interesting note....Bobby Witt was rated as an 80 by one major league scout, while having a particularly "ON" day at OU. I'm not sure he ever had an 80 day in the bigs.