Pro and major college scouts don't look at stats because they cherry pick the players with the most obvious physical talents and expect to continue developing them. Smaller schools may look at high school stats as a way to differentiate between more (physically) marginal players.
FormerObserver 507 post, Panther Dad 647 post, Beenthere IL 3568 post, Sark20 983 post, hokieone 495 post, Fungo 964 post.
Guys I appreciate your responce to my take on stats. There a lot of experiance from you guys. very informational. Thanks, I'll place a little less importants on stats for my sons senior year.
fc v dad
Guys I appreciate your responce to my take on stats. There a lot of experiance from you guys. very informational. Thanks, I'll place a little less importants on stats for my sons senior year.
fc v dad
Stats are nice to have and may get you noticed but if you look closely at stats you can find some interesting things. I am from NJ and we have 4 groups 1 is smaller schools and 4 is largest. My town is gr 2 and a neighboring town is 1. Their coach aside from playing a week conference schedule which he cannot do much about also plays week out of conference games against small catholic schools who win 2 or 3 games a year so many of his star players dont really face much competition. In my town we are in a good conference for baseball and our out of conference games are usually against teams from group 3 or 4 teams. So seeing a kid hit .450 is nice but take a look at the schedule before you send him to cooperstown.
The variance in stats is somewhat predictable.
A very rough estimate would tell you that in an area with 4 levels of schools the following would be somewhat close:
A player hitting .350 in top group (largest schools) would be roughly equivalent to a player in the next group hitting .400 a kid in the third group hitting .450 and a kid in fourth group (smallest schools) hitting .500.
These figures are rough estimates - but for what I have watched over the years it hits pretty close - and was backed up when I watched players from various size schools compete against each other in off season leagues.
While it might look good to see the .500 - a more realistic approach as a parent its to convert it to value of.350 for comparison purposes. That way when your son finally plays with or against those other kids you can anticipate what type of hitter he really is.
A very rough estimate would tell you that in an area with 4 levels of schools the following would be somewhat close:
A player hitting .350 in top group (largest schools) would be roughly equivalent to a player in the next group hitting .400 a kid in the third group hitting .450 and a kid in fourth group (smallest schools) hitting .500.
These figures are rough estimates - but for what I have watched over the years it hits pretty close - and was backed up when I watched players from various size schools compete against each other in off season leagues.
While it might look good to see the .500 - a more realistic approach as a parent its to convert it to value of.350 for comparison purposes. That way when your son finally plays with or against those other kids you can anticipate what type of hitter he really is.
AParent,
I tend to agree with your chart variance logic but it would seem that your over generous to the lower groups. What did you use to base your scientific method?
Knowledge is Power! Thank you Mavens and HSBBWEB!
I tend to agree with your chart variance logic but it would seem that your over generous to the lower groups. What did you use to base your scientific method?
Knowledge is Power! Thank you Mavens and HSBBWEB!
Chicks,
No scientific measurement at all - just experience. As I mentioned these were very rough numbers - used mostly because they were easy round numbers to use.
I agree they are a bit generous - however I was trying to make a point without raising anyone's dander.
(.350 / .450 / .550 / .650 would be pretty reasonable as well - but I personally think the number is somewhere in between those two sets).
No scientific measurement at all - just experience. As I mentioned these were very rough numbers - used mostly because they were easy round numbers to use.
I agree they are a bit generous - however I was trying to make a point without raising anyone's dander.
(.350 / .450 / .550 / .650 would be pretty reasonable as well - but I personally think the number is somewhere in between those two sets).
During my son's senior year in HS - I watched many many games. Most are ones he wasnt even involved in.
I would watch the games closely - keep notes - and then - the next day - read the local paper. The stats reported in many cases bore no semblence to reality.
Perhaps it is the need to create a player - and a reputation - and that is why the coaches do it. My guess is that the ever increasing level of competition - and the pressure on the HS coaches to "succeed or be gone" - is the primary cause for this.
The coaches should realize however - that there are people that are watching very closely - and that the only thing that can come of inflated stats is a loss of credibility.
When a kid is reported to bat .580 - and he is really batting .280 - or when a kid gets 85% of his RBI's and hits against a team that they shouldnt even be playing - and they play that team 5 times in a season out of conference - the stats become absolutely useless IMO.
I would watch the games closely - keep notes - and then - the next day - read the local paper. The stats reported in many cases bore no semblence to reality.
Perhaps it is the need to create a player - and a reputation - and that is why the coaches do it. My guess is that the ever increasing level of competition - and the pressure on the HS coaches to "succeed or be gone" - is the primary cause for this.
The coaches should realize however - that there are people that are watching very closely - and that the only thing that can come of inflated stats is a loss of credibility.
When a kid is reported to bat .580 - and he is really batting .280 - or when a kid gets 85% of his RBI's and hits against a team that they shouldnt even be playing - and they play that team 5 times in a season out of conference - the stats become absolutely useless IMO.
its
Stats are nothing more than a starting off point, even when they are kept quite accurately
For instance, They can play a useful role. Take a small town player wtih great stats (no falsified, truely good stats). He may realize he needs to compete at a more compteitive level to find out if his skill is for real. Perhaps those stats are what convinced his parents to let him travel, or spend the money for a good summer team.
On the flip side, if he has truly awesome stats his parents may think he is going to be recrutied for his awesome stats alone and decide to forgoe the summer team and even skip the showcases as well.
Whether they help or harm is all in how you choose to see them.
Stats are nothing more than a starting off point, even when they are kept quite accurately
For instance, They can play a useful role. Take a small town player wtih great stats (no falsified, truely good stats). He may realize he needs to compete at a more compteitive level to find out if his skill is for real. Perhaps those stats are what convinced his parents to let him travel, or spend the money for a good summer team.
On the flip side, if he has truly awesome stats his parents may think he is going to be recrutied for his awesome stats alone and decide to forgoe the summer team and even skip the showcases as well.
Whether they help or harm is all in how you choose to see them.
AParent,
I dont disagree. But I am speaking of the specific area that I followed.
Stats can also be very misleading at the HS level and virtually worthless IMO. That is my point - and why I think you need a complete understanding of the league. Without that - it is a **** shoot. At least - that has been my experience in one geographic area of NY.
I dont disagree. But I am speaking of the specific area that I followed.
Stats can also be very misleading at the HS level and virtually worthless IMO. That is my point - and why I think you need a complete understanding of the league. Without that - it is a **** shoot. At least - that has been my experience in one geographic area of NY.
You're right eye, stats can help to do what you did, but they are not good to compare your players with other league's players, for example.
"Peace is, the respect for the other people's rights".
Benito Juarez
"Peace is, the respect for the other people's rights".
Benito Juarez
Stats mean nothing to a HS school coach because they more reflect the competition a lids plays than his actual talent
eye---said it
I respectfully put forth that if a coach needs stats to see what kids are doing what for the team then he has a greater problem than he wants to admit---- stats are great in LL to give to the parents so they can brag to their relatives and neighbors
TRhit
eye---said it
I respectfully put forth that if a coach needs stats to see what kids are doing what for the team then he has a greater problem than he wants to admit---- stats are great in LL to give to the parents so they can brag to their relatives and neighbors
TRhit
Racab
After that one season I kept stats on my son to help him understand whether he was improving or struggling and in what areas.
But as he got older they became less important to him since he has a sense of where he is at without them.
As for stats in relationship to other players in HS, Colege and Pros, I don't see any benefit to them except by those who are trying to assess a player's potential based upon the record of achievement, but strictly based upon each individual player, not in comparison in a negative sense to laud it over someone else.
It is a good tool to be used to help the player, coach and others who may be trying to assess talent, improvement, or progress.
"eye...said it"
After that one season I kept stats on my son to help him understand whether he was improving or struggling and in what areas.
But as he got older they became less important to him since he has a sense of where he is at without them.
As for stats in relationship to other players in HS, Colege and Pros, I don't see any benefit to them except by those who are trying to assess a player's potential based upon the record of achievement, but strictly based upon each individual player, not in comparison in a negative sense to laud it over someone else.
It is a good tool to be used to help the player, coach and others who may be trying to assess talent, improvement, or progress.
"eye...said it"
Agree!
"Peace is, the respect for the other people's rights".
Benito Juarez
"Peace is, the respect for the other people's rights".
Benito Juarez
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
Stats mean nothing to a HS school coach because they more reflect the competition a kids plays than his actual talent
eye---said it
I respectfully put forth that if a coach needs stats to see what kids are doing what for the team then he has a greater problem than he wants to admit---- stats are great in LL to give to the parents so they can brag to their relatives and neighbors
TRhit
This is a very negative response to what I found worked for me...maybe for you it wouldn't, and that's what makes individual methods in coaching so important to these forums since it helps others to find those methods here in the Q and A.
My legitimacy of experience is not tied to anybody's interpretation of that experience since not one word to the contrary will change it.
"eye...said it"
eye
Not negative at all---different strokes for different folks--not trying to change you , that is the least of my concerns, but I still think a coach who needs to look at a stat book to see which kids are producing has a problem.
TRhit
Not negative at all---different strokes for different folks--not trying to change you , that is the least of my concerns, but I still think a coach who needs to look at a stat book to see which kids are producing has a problem.
TRhit
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
eye
Not negative at all---different strokes for different folks--not trying to change you , that is the least of my concerns, but I still think a coach who needs to look at a stat book to see which kids are producing has a problem.
TRhit
Mr McCarthy my son's baseball coach would find that interesting because he uses the book all the time to sit down with his players and go over their progress.
Within my own team I found the performance of my players based upon their individual stats very helpful in monitoring their progress...sorry that it bothers you, but I was able to improve our team's overall winning record doing it that way.
"eye...said it"
TR,
I know you use the word "kids" in this phrase, but doesn't MLB coaches use stats to see how their players are doing and maybe make adjustments based on that? I don't see how you can condemn a hs coach for doing that as well?
Knowledge is Power! Thank you Mavens and HSBBWEB!
quote:
but I still think a coach who needs to look at a stat book to see which kids are producing has a problem.
I know you use the word "kids" in this phrase, but doesn't MLB coaches use stats to see how their players are doing and maybe make adjustments based on that? I don't see how you can condemn a hs coach for doing that as well?
Knowledge is Power! Thank you Mavens and HSBBWEB!
quote:
Originally posted by ChicksDigTheLongBall:
TR,quote:
but I still think a coach who needs to look at a stat book to see which kids are producing has a problem.
I know you use the word "kids" in this phrase, but doesn't MLB coaches use stats to see how their players are doing and maybe make adjustments based on that? I don't see how you can condemn a hs coach for doing that as well?
Knowledge is Power! Thank you Mavens and HSBBWEB!
______________________________________________
Chicks
They do...I went to a SF Giants Clinic and Dusty Baker was there and he was asked that question by someone...
The pros use stats all the time in their strategy sessions especially to when the pitchers are going over hitters to help connect the dots with trending.
TRHits is just yanking my chain...
"eye...said it"
the topic was HS baseball stats, was it not !!!
eye
I assume he is at LL level and I am just offering up my opinion--if it is about LL stats it should be in the "pre HS forum" not here anyway
Chicks
the MLB level is totally different-- LL coaches are not HS coaches --HS coaches are not Select Team Coaches -- HS/Slect Team coaches are not college coaches---college coaches are not MLB Coaches
Different things happen at each level--eye I do believe was referring to LL level coaches.
Condemn !!!-- I condemn nobody-- I offered my opinion that is all
Aside to "eye"-- I have no idea who you are so how I can I make a decision to like or dislike--- why does it all have to be personal--darn--I am looking at a screen and typing and offering an opinion in a discussion and all of a sudden it gets taken as personal
I just find it hard to equate LL coaches methods with MLB Managers situations--not only are they not on the same page they are not in the same book !!!
TRhit
eye
I assume he is at LL level and I am just offering up my opinion--if it is about LL stats it should be in the "pre HS forum" not here anyway
Chicks
the MLB level is totally different-- LL coaches are not HS coaches --HS coaches are not Select Team Coaches -- HS/Slect Team coaches are not college coaches---college coaches are not MLB Coaches
Different things happen at each level--eye I do believe was referring to LL level coaches.
Condemn !!!-- I condemn nobody-- I offered my opinion that is all
Aside to "eye"-- I have no idea who you are so how I can I make a decision to like or dislike--- why does it all have to be personal--darn--I am looking at a screen and typing and offering an opinion in a discussion and all of a sudden it gets taken as personal
I just find it hard to equate LL coaches methods with MLB Managers situations--not only are they not on the same page they are not in the same book !!!
TRhit
This is a terrific thread. I think stats are very important to different people, and not so important to others. Baseball is such a great great game, it is built on stats. Gosh, when I was growing up I knew everyone's stats from year to year. But I digress...back to the original question, How important are High School stats, as far as college and the draft, I don't think they are important at all, they will see what you can do, they don't need to know you had 24 RBI's your freshman year. As far as H.S. all league, all CIF, or all state, they are terribly important. Just my opinion, but I love the statistical aspect of baseball, how they do against lefthanders vs. righthanders, what is their on base percentage, etc. Anyway.
posted February 03, 2004 03:25 PM
the topic was HS baseball stats, was it not !!!
eye
[[[I assume he is at LL level and I am just offering up my opinion--if it is about LL stats it should be in the "pre HS forum" not here anyway]]]
Dear Mr TRhits
Sticking to the subject of how stats are used in HS, doesn"t disallow a comparison at any level.
Your post did not...it attacked me personally and insulted my contribution here. You may disagree with the method which is your right but the phrase "there is something wrong with a
coach that uses stats".
I proposed that my son's HS school coach uses stats (sticking to the subject) and you still insulted me personally.
Mr TRhits...you are wrong, stats are used at every level of baseball. That I know and can give you example after example of how they are used at every level.
"eye...said it"
the topic was HS baseball stats, was it not !!!
eye
[[[I assume he is at LL level and I am just offering up my opinion--if it is about LL stats it should be in the "pre HS forum" not here anyway]]]
Dear Mr TRhits
Sticking to the subject of how stats are used in HS, doesn"t disallow a comparison at any level.
Your post did not...it attacked me personally and insulted my contribution here. You may disagree with the method which is your right but the phrase "there is something wrong with a
coach that uses stats".
I proposed that my son's HS school coach uses stats (sticking to the subject) and you still insulted me personally.
Mr TRhits...you are wrong, stats are used at every level of baseball. That I know and can give you example after example of how they are used at every level.
"eye...said it"
Stats are good if you know how to use it. Stats doesn't say who is better, but says who is performing better now, and against who, etc... The point is that you can not use stats as an scout, or recruter because stats doesn't say nothing about projection, about next level performance, or to compare players quality. But even to make your "today line-up", you check out how every one of your players is doing lately, or against "X" team or pitcher, etc..
"Peace is, the respect for the other people's rights".
Benito Juarez
"Peace is, the respect for the other people's rights".
Benito Juarez
The question was, and I reiterate it without fear of insulting you as that is not and has not been my intention, "how improtant are HS stats"--- you cited a LL example
You can take my posts how ever you wish--they are general, not specific to "eye--said it" or anyone else.
TRhit
You can take my posts how ever you wish--they are general, not specific to "eye--said it" or anyone else.
TRhit
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
The question was, and I reiterate it without fear of insulting you as that is not and has not been my intention, "how improtant are HS stats"--- you cited a LL example
You can take my posts how ever you wish--they are general, not specific to "eye--said it" or anyone else.
TRhit
______________________________________________
No----Sir:
I cited a learning experience...
Your style seems to be somewhat argumentative, without a cause.
Myopia prevents one from seeing the larger picture.
Baseball requires a person that can interpret the larger picture into what is usuable at any level.
I will listen to a LL coach as much as I will a Pro, why, becuase it's about learning, not paradigms.
"eye...said it"
Don't want to get in the middle of this nice ******* match, but I'm going to disagree with TRhit (a little) on this one. I agree that no coach worth his salt would base his assessment of his players solely on the numbers on the stat sheet (at any level.) But if the numbers don't match his assessment from the practice field and game play, I think it's a good "shirt tug", telling you to think about it some more.
Example: Your "stud" - the guy you've been figuring since pre-season to be your best hitter, gets some big hits, and generally you're pretty happy with your decision. But you check your stats after a dozen games or so and find that his average (BA, OBP, SLG, whatever) isn't actually that hot. And maybe some other guys are producing more (on paper) than you realized. Well, that's a signal that you should open your mind a little and see if maybe your stud isn't the "gamer" you thought he was.
Or maybe he is, and it's just a slump, or bad scorekeeping, or whatever. As a coach, you should know your scorekeeper, too. But the "reality check" shouldn't just be ignored. Even good coaches can overlook stuff. So I think that stats are a valid tool - not to rely on uncritically, but to confirm your field assessment, or alert you to things you may be overlooking. (At every level.)
D'oh!
Example: Your "stud" - the guy you've been figuring since pre-season to be your best hitter, gets some big hits, and generally you're pretty happy with your decision. But you check your stats after a dozen games or so and find that his average (BA, OBP, SLG, whatever) isn't actually that hot. And maybe some other guys are producing more (on paper) than you realized. Well, that's a signal that you should open your mind a little and see if maybe your stud isn't the "gamer" you thought he was.
Or maybe he is, and it's just a slump, or bad scorekeeping, or whatever. As a coach, you should know your scorekeeper, too. But the "reality check" shouldn't just be ignored. Even good coaches can overlook stuff. So I think that stats are a valid tool - not to rely on uncritically, but to confirm your field assessment, or alert you to things you may be overlooking. (At every level.)
D'oh!
somebody once told me that sometimes "figures lie and liars figure".
quote:
Originally posted by Will:
somebody once told me that sometimes "figures lie and liars figure".
What was that Dizzy Dean once said,
"It ain't braggin if you can do it".
Can we infer that any braggin that ya do better be backed up with stats?
Knowledge is Power! Thank you Mavens and HSBBWEB!
Hey Will, how about this one:
"There are three kinds of lies: Lies, ****ed lies, and statistics."
--Benjamin Disraeli
D'oh!
"There are three kinds of lies: Lies, ****ed lies, and statistics."
--Benjamin Disraeli
D'oh!
I haven't read all of the post on this thread... but being an engineer (I'll try to not get too technical) and doing statistical analysis as part of my job, and having read MONEYBALL, and being a coach myself.... A quote I've heard in many different forms comes to mind.... In fact Vin Scully has used a form of it many times..
So Stats can be very useful... for the right purpose.. and if a common "BASIS" can be defined and controlled. The better that basis can be identified and made common throughout the better the statistical comparison. For instance... One of the biggest factors in a BATTING average is the quality of pitching faces… Thus comparing hitters in one state vs another does not have not much in common or is controllable. We can do a bit better by comparing all the hitters in the same league, but there is still some variability. But better yet are statistics to compare hitters on the same team who face the same pitchers on the same day. Then you have a common basis... and they mean something for comparison.
For college coaches comparing kids from different areas... NO WAY... Stats are meaniless.…
For Billy Bean and the Oakland A's comparing college pitchers... The stats have more meaning because college scorekeeping is a bit more precise, yet this is still not exact.
A lot has to do with who collects the stats... IE LL stats are TERRIBLE as is a vast majority of HS stats... as been mentiones previously... Thus the reason the A's don't use HS stats.
But from a coaches point of view to look for trends, or other valuable information about his own team... If he isn't using stats then he is ignoring a very useful tool.... Again I said TOOL and the person using the tool has to have a certain SKILL to make it useful..
quote:
'A lot of people (insert your favorite type...politician, lawyers, baseball parent, whoever) use statistics the way a drunk uses a lamppost: for support rather than illumination...
So Stats can be very useful... for the right purpose.. and if a common "BASIS" can be defined and controlled. The better that basis can be identified and made common throughout the better the statistical comparison. For instance... One of the biggest factors in a BATTING average is the quality of pitching faces… Thus comparing hitters in one state vs another does not have not much in common or is controllable. We can do a bit better by comparing all the hitters in the same league, but there is still some variability. But better yet are statistics to compare hitters on the same team who face the same pitchers on the same day. Then you have a common basis... and they mean something for comparison.
For college coaches comparing kids from different areas... NO WAY... Stats are meaniless.…
For Billy Bean and the Oakland A's comparing college pitchers... The stats have more meaning because college scorekeeping is a bit more precise, yet this is still not exact.
A lot has to do with who collects the stats... IE LL stats are TERRIBLE as is a vast majority of HS stats... as been mentiones previously... Thus the reason the A's don't use HS stats.
But from a coaches point of view to look for trends, or other valuable information about his own team... If he isn't using stats then he is ignoring a very useful tool.... Again I said TOOL and the person using the tool has to have a certain SKILL to make it useful..
As a High School coach for many years I would like to get on this. When College coachs are recruiting our kids they never ask for stats. I repeat never. They are absolutely meaningless to a College coach. There are very good High School hitters that can mash the High School fastball but get blown away by the top level pitchers in the playoffs and against the better competition. If they play 30 games and only five of those games were against College quality pitchers then guess what can happen. They hit 550 in 25 games with 10 jacks. They hit a buck fifty with no jacks in the five games against the quality pitching and end up with a nice avg. Also College coachs understand the same thing that many of you have posted as far as statistics being skewed by all kinds of factors. They do not care if the kid mashes 78-82 mph fastballs. They look at the kids swing and bat speed. Ability to hit the good pitching on a consistent basis. Heres how it works. Coach calls College coach and tells him he has a player that they should look at. Or he gets a questionaire and puts a kids name on it. Coach comes out and watches the kid take infield and bp. Coach watches a couple of games and looks at his swing and his mechanics at the plate. If the coach likes what he sees you will hear from him if he does not you wont hear from him. Stats have nothing to do with that process I repeat nothing. I have had kids that were year in and year out 310 320 hitters that D-1 schools loved. I have also had kids that were 375 390 hitters that never got that call. Do you honestly believe that a College coach is going to recruit a kid based on stats? The better hitters will hit the better pitching. And yes they will hit the weaker pitching too at times. But they loose the weak hits that the avg hitter gets like the bloop singles off the metal bats. Does your kid sting the baseball. Can he jump on an upper 80s low 90s fastball and not get blown away. If that is the case you dont have to worry about stats. People that worry about stats usually are the ones that are looking to justify their kids hitting ability with numbers. You dont have to do that if your son can mash.
Coach May
Amen to that !!!!!
TRhit
Amen to that !!!!!
TRhit
quote:
Originally posted by Coach May:
As a High School coach for many years I would like to get on this. When College coachs are recruiting our kids they never ask for stats. I repeat never. They are absolutely meaningless to a College coach. There are very good High School hitters that can mash the High School fastball but get blown away by the top level pitchers in the playoffs and against the better competition. If they play 30 games and only five of those games were against College quality pitchers then guess what can happen. They hit 550 in 25 games with 10 jacks. They hit a buck fifty with no jacks in the five games against the quality pitching and end up with a nice avg. Also College coachs understand the same thing that many of you have posted as far as statistics being skewed by all kinds of factors. They do not care if the kid mashes 78-82 mph fastballs. They look at the kids swing and bat speed. Ability to hit the good pitching on a consistent basis. Heres how it works. Coach calls College coach and tells him he has a player that they should look at. Or he gets a questionaire and puts a kids name on it. Coach comes out and watches the kid take infield and bp. Coach watches a couple of games and looks at his swing and his mechanics at the plate. If the coach likes what he sees you will hear from him if he does not you wont hear from him. Stats have nothing to do with that process I repeat nothing. I have had kids that were year in and year out 310 320 hitters that D-1 schools loved. I have also had kids that were 375 390 hitters that never got that call. Do you honestly believe that a College coach is going to recruit a kid based on stats? The better hitters will hit the better pitching. And yes they will hit the weaker pitching too at times. But they loose the weak hits that the avg hitter gets like the bloop singles off the metal bats. Does your kid sting the baseball. Can he jump on an upper 80s low 90s fastball and not get blown away. If that is the case you dont have to worry about stats. People that worry about stats usually are the ones that are looking to justify their kids hitting ability with numbers. You dont have to do that if your son can mash.
Coach May,
I believe what you just stated is what everyone agrees, no one disagrees with your statements. What you failed to respond to is "Are HS Statistics" important to high school players? Teen-agers that have yet to become adults, whom have been graded on everything in life from ACT, SAT, appearance, attitude, lifesyle, sports and such. Can you tell me that they shouldn't be important to the high school player? or that they should be?
Knowledge is Power! Thank you Mavens and HSBBWEB!
HS stats mean nothing except to the parents, the players and maybe the HS coach.
Example:
I watched a player (2A level, 5A being the highest in CO) who had GREAT stats. Their league contained small rural farming communities. Some of these schools barely had enough players to make a team. One team had two girls playing (no offense ladies) so they wouldn't forfeit. His pitching stats were awesome. He also led the league in homeruns. Their field, because of the location with a city street behind it was maybe 300 feet down the lines and 280' dead center.
Guess what? Pro scouts still came! Not because of his stats, but because he traveled to Denver to play on a high profile summer team, which is where he was first seen and scouted, and is a stud. They checked on his velocity and command, but cared less about whether he got outs or not (not a lot of defense around him). Ended up being drafted but chose a top tier DI and is projected by BA to be a possible 1st rounder in 2005 (HV knows who I'm talking about
).
Can't blame the player because of where he lives, but trust me, it wasn't because of his HS stats. Many others on his team had great HS stats and aren't playing past HS.
Frank
PASSION - "There are many things in life that will catch your eye, but only a few will catch your heart...pursue those."
Example:
I watched a player (2A level, 5A being the highest in CO) who had GREAT stats. Their league contained small rural farming communities. Some of these schools barely had enough players to make a team. One team had two girls playing (no offense ladies) so they wouldn't forfeit. His pitching stats were awesome. He also led the league in homeruns. Their field, because of the location with a city street behind it was maybe 300 feet down the lines and 280' dead center.
Guess what? Pro scouts still came! Not because of his stats, but because he traveled to Denver to play on a high profile summer team, which is where he was first seen and scouted, and is a stud. They checked on his velocity and command, but cared less about whether he got outs or not (not a lot of defense around him). Ended up being drafted but chose a top tier DI and is projected by BA to be a possible 1st rounder in 2005 (HV knows who I'm talking about
).Can't blame the player because of where he lives, but trust me, it wasn't because of his HS stats. Many others on his team had great HS stats and aren't playing past HS.
Frank
PASSION - "There are many things in life that will catch your eye, but only a few will catch your heart...pursue those."
Should High School players care about the stats? Not if they want to win. As soon at they understand that it is not important what they do but what the team does then you have something special. Look at sports today. Its all about me, look at me, look at what I did. The only thing that they should be concerned about is am I hitting the ball hard consistently. You cant controll it after it leaves the bat. You can have four great at bats and go o-4. You can have a terrible at bat and bleed one over the first basemans head for a hit. You show me a player that is wrapped up in his stats and Ill show you a spoiled player that is not for the team. If our guys ask us about stats or coach was that a hit, then they are going to run. That is so individual is sickens me. Did you do everything today to help your team win little Johnny. Yes Sir Coach. Good job Johnny. Try this one (Player 1 goes to the plate with his avg on his mind.) (Player 2 goes to the plate with nothing on his mind but reaching base and helping the team.) Ill take player 2 all day long. We foster the player 2 environment. We get rid of the player 1. Its sad because usually player 1 is a product of dad trying to live through his son and putting emphasis on things that in the long run dont mean a hill of beans. We keep stats the staff does, but we make sure that we note the quality of the pitching and the team we are playing. We also note the quality of the at bat. Was it a shot in the gap that the C/F layed out for and caught. Or was it a bloop off the end of the bat where he tried to pull a 78 mph fastball and he was late. Its about the team. Its not about the stats. Players need to learn that, if they dont they will always be individuals and not really a part of the team.
chicks, coach May did respond you're just refusing to listen - he his right on the mark -
that grade you speak of is "interest by next level coaches"
if parents knew how little hs stats meant, maybe they'd spend more time throwing bp & hitting grounders to Johnny than compiling/fudging/promoting his stats
lefties? - - - they just aint right!
that grade you speak of is "interest by next level coaches"
if parents knew how little hs stats meant, maybe they'd spend more time throwing bp & hitting grounders to Johnny than compiling/fudging/promoting his stats
lefties? - - - they just aint right!
quote:Chicks I'll take a stab at it.
Can you tell me that they shouldn't be important to the high school player? or that they should be?
Regardless of the competition, a pitcher can look at stats and judge his effectiveness based on:
1. First pitch strikes percentage
2. Strikes to ball ratio
3. Strike-out to walk ratio
Those 3 numbers are nothing but reflective of the pitcher.
Every other individual statistic I can think of in a ball game is dependant on the relative stength of the opposition such as batter versus pitcher, the teams fielding strength or lack thereof. They are useless, except to the coach in helping to figure out who is hot or not.
Chicks,
Coach May said it better than I tried to explain to you.
Coach May said it better than I tried to explain to you.
Coach May, well said! Other than the 3 I mentioned a pitcher can check, stats are meaningless.
Coach May - well said, I understand completely.
Dad04 - thanks for the comparison, very nice!
Thank you all for the great responses, it was enjoyable reading the different views from both sides of the spectrum. I hope that everyone who reads this topic can benefit. Very effective thread.
Knowledge is Power! Thank you Mavens and HSBBWEB!
Dad04 - thanks for the comparison, very nice!
Thank you all for the great responses, it was enjoyable reading the different views from both sides of the spectrum. I hope that everyone who reads this topic can benefit. Very effective thread.
Knowledge is Power! Thank you Mavens and HSBBWEB!
I would like to ask a question but before I do I want to stress a few points:
I agree completely that high school stats are extremely unreliable.
I agree that a player with astronomical stats may not be a good player - but play poor competition or have a poor stats keeper.
I agree that a great player may have basement level stats and still get recruited.
I agree that a good player will be dissappointed in a bad at bat - even when some idiot calls it a hit when it should have been an error on the defense.
I agree that a lot of parents are misled by good stats and foolishly use them to think that Johnny is better than Joey, or that Johnny is a shoo in for a scholarship.
With all that said, what I cannot fathom is this:
As a coach are you really trying to tell me you would not take the time to investigate a player with interesting stats - even if that was all you knew about him before you started asking? I am not saying recruit him by the way, just investigate him. You are telling me stats do not even tickle your curiosity?
As a showcase director, or a travel team coach are you telling me a kid who hits .087 in high school would be automatically invited to your showcase or asked to try out for your travel team?
While agree completely that stats are pretty unreliable - they do not guarantee you will be recruited - nor do they prevent you from getting a scholarship - I simply don't buy the totally meaningless part.
I agree completely that high school stats are extremely unreliable.
I agree that a player with astronomical stats may not be a good player - but play poor competition or have a poor stats keeper.
I agree that a great player may have basement level stats and still get recruited.
I agree that a good player will be dissappointed in a bad at bat - even when some idiot calls it a hit when it should have been an error on the defense.
I agree that a lot of parents are misled by good stats and foolishly use them to think that Johnny is better than Joey, or that Johnny is a shoo in for a scholarship.
With all that said, what I cannot fathom is this:
As a coach are you really trying to tell me you would not take the time to investigate a player with interesting stats - even if that was all you knew about him before you started asking? I am not saying recruit him by the way, just investigate him. You are telling me stats do not even tickle your curiosity?
As a showcase director, or a travel team coach are you telling me a kid who hits .087 in high school would be automatically invited to your showcase or asked to try out for your travel team?
While agree completely that stats are pretty unreliable - they do not guarantee you will be recruited - nor do they prevent you from getting a scholarship - I simply don't buy the totally meaningless part.