How Important is velocity

Velocity is important. If you are throwing 70-75 (Randy Jones) you'd better have amazing movement and control. If you are throwing 75-80 you'd better have excellent movement and control. If you are throwing 80-85 you'd better have very good movement and control. If you are throwing 85-90 you'd better have at least OK movement and control. If you are throwing 90-95 you'd better be able to throw strikes most of the time and have the potential to gain some command and movement.

Left-handed versus right-handed also plays into it a little.

Depends on what type college.

D1 school with a good baseball program? Probably mid to high 80's, with the ability to pitch (not just throw).

And it goes down from there.

Lefty? You can get by with a few mph less.

If movement and location were more important than velocity, all the scouts would carry a:

instead they carry:

Fungo,
I think Bagonzi takes a pretty good approach. He has some formula where speed and movement add up to effectiveness for a fastball. I don't remember exactly how he does it but it makes sense. I have seen kids with a lot of movement looked at ahead of pitchers with a bit faster fastballs but I doubt if there are going to be any more Randy Jones drafted throwing most of their fastballs in the low to mid 70s no matter how good their movement and control.

How important velocity vs pitch placement could be debated all day. But if you want to know how important velocity is to a College coach I will list a hypothetical list of questions in the order I believe most college coaches would ask a High School coach about a prospect.

1) How's his velocity?
2) Lhp or Rhp?
3) How tall is he, how much does he weigh?
4) Does he throw strikes?
5) How is his movement?
6) How many innings can you get out of him?
7) How is his attitude?
8) Whats his knowlege of the game?
9) Does he have leadership qualities?
10) How loyal is he?

This still does not answer the original posters question of whats the least mph that a pitcher can throw and still get college interest from coaches. My opinion is that there is many levels of college play and there are plenty of college pitchers throwing in the 70's. But I have never heard of a collegiate pitcher with a fastball in the 60's. So I guess the answer would be at least 70.

From my 04 son's college recruiting experience, I don't think may college coaches would be taking a close look at a HS senior RHP in the low 70s unless there were other very special circumstances. Just from our observations, I think even D3 coaches expect to see at least high 70s in high school along with movement, control, and some kind of breaking ball, and some projectability that tells them the pitcher is likely to break 80 in college.

Regarding velocities for actually pitching in college once the player gets there, what we have heard a few times is something like this for RHP averages: 80-83 for D3, 84-86 for D2, 87-90+ for D1. I realize that there are many other qualities and assets in pitching besides velocity, each school will have a range of pitching velocities on their staff, and each level (D3-D2-D1) will have stronger and weaker schools and conferences. And I agree that there are probably quite a few D3 and community colleges that have some pitchers who throw in the 70s. But this list of averages for pitchers at good programs at each level was told to us, and then seemed to be confirmed by my son's conversations with college coaches and now his experience so far in his first year of college. Yes, a pitcher has to be able to throw strikes and fool batters, and there will definitely be exceptions to these numbers, but we observed them to be accurate as a starting point for thinking about where a pitcher might be recruited and eventually pitch.

Velocity is important......so is movement, location and deception. It is nice if the kid is a winner too.

How much velocity? Enough for the pitcher to be a winner. The hitters let you know how effective you are right quick.

Alot of parents ask this question because they want to know where there kid stacks up. They want to know what level of ball he can potentially play at past high school. No D-1 program is going to offer money to a kid that throws 75-80 movement will not matter because he does not have the velocity. But what can happen and does is this kid walks on and gets guys out with great control and movement and the ability to pitch. He gets in the weight room and in a good program and picks up a little velocity and sticks. Happens all the time. Velocity is important for a kid wanting to play past high school because it gets you noticed. I have had kids that could throw hard that were not nearly as effective at the high school level as kids that did not throw hard. The harder thrower that can not locate that walks guys will get you beat. The other kid that can locate and throw strikes with movement will win you alot of games. But when the college coaches come and see 75 on the gun thats all they see. When they see the other kid hitting 88 thats all they see. Alot of them figure they can take the kid with the 88 work on his mechanics and teach him to throw strikes. My experience is if your son is a pitcher around here it kind of goes like this.
80-83 Community College D-3
83-85 D-3 D-2
85-88 D-2 D-1
88-92 D-1
93- Above Draft
Does that mean its a given, no. Ability to locate more than just one pitch. Movement on the ball. Physical make up. Grades. Attitude. There are so many more factors that are envolved in the process. Velocity is very important. Its the first thing that gets a kid noticed. Then they look at the ability to locate and movement. No velocity and they will not be around to see the movement.

coach may i agree,
except there are few d1 recruites under 87-88.
what ever happened to getting people out??? i think sometimes college coaches put too much emphasis on numbers (in football also). had a kid graduate last year, 4 year varsity starter 23-3 career record (against 4A schools), 79-84 fastball (game speed) major movement and control with a nasty slider and change. he was not looked at by D1 schools, simply because of velocity.

What scout had the guts to draft Randy Jones? His arm was injured while he was still an amateur and he threw his two-seamer from 73 to 75 mph. His overall record wasn't anything special but he came close to the Cy Young one year and then won it the next.

bbscout,
How hard did that relatively small (5'11" or so) kid who walked on at UCLA and ended up being one of their better relievers last season throw? I think his name was Kevin something.

He looked like low to mid 80s to me but I'm no judge of speeds in that range or above.

quote:

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Originally posted by CADad:
bbscout,
How hard did that relatively small (5'11" or so) kid who walked on at UCLA and ended up being one of their better relievers last season throw? I think his name was Kevin something.

He looked like low to mid 80s to me but I'm no judge of speeds in that range or above.

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He threw 83-86 mph sinkers and he threw strikes. He pitched without fear. He was class valedictorian in High School and is a chemical engineering major at UCLA.

bbscout,
Thanks. I pointed him out to my son as a role model for a pitcher after we saw him pitch against Stanford. Thanks for the academic info too. Very impressive academically. Chemical engineering is a tough major even amongst engineers.

Its worse in football guys. I have seen several guys over the years that got full rides basically on size alone. I will not mention names but recently a kid that we played against 6'4 295 got a full ride to a major D-1 program. He was not even a factor on the field. Very average high school player. But the scouts loved his size. I have seen this so many times. Then you have a kid thats 5'11 230 thats all over the field making plays a real hard nosed kid that can really play and makes an impact. No offers because of his size alone. Life is just not fair is it. Happens in baseball I agree but from my experience size hurts or helps a whole lot more in football.

I don't get why it's frustrating or surprising to people that scouts look for size and speed when they evaluate talent. I'm sure it's disapointing to a pitcher who throws in the 70's that he's not being scouted, but that's reality. There's nothing "unfair" about it. It's not considered "unfair" when a much smarter kid gets an academic scholarship to MIT over a kid that worked a lot harder in his high school math classes. The fact is that scouts are looking for kids who can get outs at the next level, not the high school level. Most "average" fastball/good control high school pitchers are getting outs simply because the competition is mediocre at best. A good summer team that plays a strong schedule, in my opinion, gives players, and in particular pitchers, a much better guage of their abilities.

A big part of the problem lies with the parents when it comes to helping their sons be realistic about their talent level. This past summer I saw parents of pitchers on my sons team tracking their son's ERA's like they were stock prices. There'd be discussions after the game regarding whether certain runs were earned or not. When a kid is getting pounded on the mound a scout generally doesn't care if the runs are earned or unearned. He's evaluating his stuff. And in fact he's also evaluating the players ability to perform under pressure and in the face of adversity.

In my opinion a pitcher with a fastball in the 70's shouldn't be encouraged that he'll get any college scholarship offers or attention from scouts.

Caught looking,
I think you make a very astute observation. The pitcher with a lower velocity is somewhat similar to the girl that may not be the most beautiful so she is promoted as having another trait, usually a good personality.
It makes no difference what you or I think about velocity or pitching prowess. . . . . Coaches and scouts, in evaluating pitchers, make their selections based on their own opinions, not ours! Therefore, we the parents and players need to understand THEIR way of thinking and adjust our plans accordingly.
Fungo