I would imagine that Ivy staff are limited in how many prospects they can get a "pre-read" on.  The admissions staff are probably too busy to handle pre-reads for everyone on that staff's prospect list. But if they do run a prospect through and get a green-light will it count against some sort of "quota" limit? Will a coaching staff wait to ask admission for a pre-read until they have some sort of assurance or other commitment (like a family investing in travel $ for a visit) that the prospect is truly interested? In other words, should a family invest $ for a visit (invited by staff) if they don't have assurance from the coaching staff that the "green-light" is already there or forthcoming?

Original Post

You've actually asked a couple different questions here.  

Coaches have liaisons who's sole purpose is to be a link between Coaches and Admissions and qualify (check/doublecheck) recruits prior to submitting a Pre-Read.   That is a lot of time, effort and resources for the coach, liaisons and admissions to review a recruited athlete for Ivy admission.   BTW...there are more sports than baseball, so I don't think they are wasting time, and resources doing pre-reads on anybody they are not serious about.   I think my son told me there were 230 recruited Ivy athletes in his freshmen class for all sports. 

Typically, Ivy recruits know whether or not they've passed pre-read muster a week or so after submitting academic records.    I know in my son's case they knew weeks before they offered...they knew he was coming to campus on a specific date.  If they have not given pre-read feedback then your second question is interesting because I think it depends on the recruits status (borderline or not), budget, and distance from the school.  If the school is your son's dream school, he's borderline, he's been invited and it isn't too expensive to get there...I'd do it.   That is an opportunity to sway a coach.   If he is a long shot, it is $1K to fly there and the coaches seem like they are hedging elsewhere then you've got some tough decisions to make or possibly another phone call to make before purchasing that ticket.    

This gets into a sense of knowing whether your son is a "buyer or a seller".   The “buyer” in the relationship is the one who is evaluating choices. In the conventional sense of the word, the buyer is the one with the money and needs to be convinced that the seller is offering something worthwhile. In the Coach / Recruit relationship – the coach is trying to sell his product (the school and team) to the top recruits, while the lower level recruits are doing their best to sell their talents to the coach.For example, are you the one making more of the calls and waiting for your messages and emails to be returned? If so, that sounds like you’re the seller.   Is the coach calling you regularly just to check in and let you know interesting or exciting things that are happening on the team? In that case, you’re the buyer – he’s the seller.

One of my favorite articles of all time - http://www.tier1athletics.org/...a-buyer-or-a-seller/

Good luck!

fenwaysouth posted:

You've actually asked a couple different questions here.  

Coaches have liaisons who's sole purpose is to be a link between Coaches and Admissions and qualify (check/doublecheck) recruits prior to submitting a Pre-Read.   That is a lot of time, effort and resources for the coach, liaisons and admissions to review a recruited athlete for Ivy admission.   BTW...there are more sports than baseball, so I don't think they are wasting time, and resources doing pre-reads on anybody they are not serious about.   I think my son told me there were 230 recruited Ivy athletes in his freshmen class for all sports. 

Typically, Ivy recruits know whether or not they've passed pre-read muster a week or so after submitting academic records.    I know in my son's case they knew weeks before they offered...they knew he was coming to campus on a specific date.  If they have not given pre-read feedback then your second question is interesting because I think it depends on the recruits status (borderline or not), budget, and distance from the school.  If the school is your son's dream school, he's borderline, he's been invited and it isn't too expensive to get there...I'd do it.   That is an opportunity to sway a coach.   If he is a long shot, it is $1K to fly there and the coaches seem like they are hedging elsewhere then you've got some tough decisions to make or possibly another phone call to make before purchasing that ticket.    

This gets into a sense of knowing whether your son is a "buyer or a seller".   The “buyer” in the relationship is the one who is evaluating choices. In the conventional sense of the word, the buyer is the one with the money and needs to be convinced that the seller is offering something worthwhile. In the Coach / Recruit relationship – the coach is trying to sell his product (the school and team) to the top recruits, while the lower level recruits are doing their best to sell their talents to the coach.For example, are you the one making more of the calls and waiting for your messages and emails to be returned? If so, that sounds like you’re the seller.   Is the coach calling you regularly just to check in and let you know interesting or exciting things that are happening on the team? In that case, you’re the buyer – he’s the seller.

One of my favorite articles of all time - http://www.tier1athletics.org/...a-buyer-or-a-seller/

Good luck!

That's a really good article.

Every Ivy coach - particularly  the ones who have done this for many year - can generally simply look at an academic resume and determine if the kid should get a formal pre-read. This is the first "academic cut," but not the last.

My info is from the entering class of 2010, but this is how it worked:

• coach sees a player play;

• coach asks player about grades, courses, and scores;

• coach forwards official transcripts, scores, academic grades to liaison or directly to his admissions contact; (no limit)

• coach gets a good understanding of whether player will be admitted;

• coach offers an official visit;

• On the OV, amongst other things, player/parents meet with admissions and financial aid officers; (in 2010, OVs were first weeks of September senior year.)

• At OV or shortly thereafter, if the kid is in the top 7, an "offer" is tendered. It is made clear the "offer" is conditional on admissions giving preliminary OK. (Why preliminary? Because a full application (including essays and all testing [used to require subject matter tests, but I think that's in the past] is required. Sometimes admissions doesn't focus on red flags earlier, and sometimes red flags appear late.) For those outside the top 7, it's a game of musical chairs. Often a kid getting an offer from HYP can assume other Ivys will make a go, so a kid turning down H opens up a spot to #8, etc. 

• If the kid accepts the "offer" the scramble is on to get the completed application in ASAP. This requires a lot of effort because most HSs are operating on a longer time line; LOR, guidance counselor rec, test results, essays, EVERYTHING must be completed before the special admissions committees for athletes meet and decide.

• if all is OK, a Likely Letter is issued. These letters can be issued as early as September or October- and the earlier the app is in, the quicker it happens.

Before senior year, we visisted most of the Ivys he was interested in - most of the time in response to an invite to "drop in"; if we met with the coach, often a pre-read was offered.

I dont want to be flip, but if you're a straight A student, with the most rigorous curriculum, and a 33+ ACT, if the coach wants you, you've passed the academic hurdle. There is some leeway; and the better the prospect the more leeway. The lowest ACT score of which I am aware was a 28. On son's team there were several with 36s - and they were also fine players.

I will add that if a player is one of the lucky 56 (roughly the number of freshman baseball players receiving Likely Letters), he should think long and hard before before rejecting that preliminary "offer."

 

Thanks for the replies. Thanks for the detailed timeline, GOOSEGG; it's very informing.  It seems things have probably changed slightly since then or perhaps schools each do things differently or, as I've seen on here many times, everyone's recruiting journey is very different. I asked a particular school about likely letters because I had read about them on this site. In fact, I had seen what GOOSEGG outlines above, that likely letters can't be issued until beginning of Sep or Oct. So with that how can there be so many (and by many I mean one or two for ~ 4 Ivy's) way before those dates? This particular Ivy told me they don't do likely letters; it was not necessary given their strong relationship with admissions/ So if they offer that means you are getting in.  It seems that this must be the case today as it seems that most commits that are listed on PG or PBR do end up on campus.

I think the answer to my original question regarding visits with no definitive pre-read answer from the school can be interpreted as "your AI works depending on the mix of prospects we are considering for the few slots we have remaining and the priority of the positions we need the most."

ABSORBER: Here's a good article on "green/yellow/red light" recruits from Tucker Frawley, Yale's RC.

https://www.frawleybaseball.co...e-Recruiting-Process

Most Ivies have about 7 likely letters per recruiting class, though some schools may be higher if they had attrition in their program.  It's true that you don't receive it until around the time of the NLI date. (In some ways it represents a NLI, but with no $ attached, but a commitment).

And yes, the Ivies do look at the AI for each particular recruiting class. Your "answer" that you provided is not far from the mindset of the Ivies. HYP tend to have the smallest rosters. For what it's worth, there have also been sons of a number of former MLB players on the current rosters as of late.

Also, the number of PG commits listed can be under-represented for these reasons I know:

1) some don't do PG events

2) Some recruits waited until they got admitted, before they put the commitment on PG.

Good luck. I always say that several years back, Fenwaysouth called the Ivy recruiting process a "Labyrinth" of a process. Right he is, but worthwholeif you land a spot (see Goosegg's post) Good luck to your son.

I did some additional research on Ivy recruiting. (You might say I went to someone who actually knows.)

Schools are giving "offers" to juniors. Those "offers" have the same effect as verbal offers to non-Ivy schools, to wit, unenforceable.

Admissions timelines and requirements (see my earlier post) have not changed.

The only assurance a kid has is through the Likely Letter (if a school(s) don't issue one, the risk is on the kid) and will know only when ED/EA or RD decisions are made.

Coaches are able to determine whose academics meet the hurdle through their experience; but it's only through experience, not because of any admissions changes.

If a kid is "offered" early junior year and grades slip or a projected (wished/hoped) score doesn't materialize, risk is on kid. There is leeway depending upon perceived impact to the program - but subject to that school's minimums. It's easier to project a kid getting a 22 ACT than a 32; which us why , for example, Arizona has less academic "fallout" than an Ivy.

Goose,

Can you please elaborate more on the early junior year ivy commitment? What were the circumstances that permitted an early Jr year commitment? E.g., ridiculous ACT/SAT score taken in June of rising Jr year, metrics and need for position? Knowing the coaching staff?

Thanks in advance.

Junior year "commitment" for an Ivy is the same as any other school. There are no special circumstances.

Coach likes what he sees, kid has a good 9th and 10th grade transcript., and coach gives an "offer." Most dont have testing done by fall 11th grade - but many have PSAT results which have a degree of correlation with a real SAT. (Back in the time when subject matter tests were required, my son was still missing those scores during the OV. When I asked during a pre-read what did the school do, I was told they "assumed" a score which would be consistent with the ACT. But that the "assumed" score needed to be delivered.)

Ivy admissions requirements haven't changed. All risk is on the player to deliver whatever is needed; so, a perfect 9th and 10th grade can be undermined by 11th grade grades (12th grade grades are different).

The only thing which has changed since we went through it is "offers" are being made a year earlier. There is more academic fall out, however, because required elements of the academic resume haven't been completed.

(One step a family can do is to get that testing done as early as possible. Except for the truly "on the academic bubble" player, the coach KNOWS who he can get in. So e.g., the coach  knows that a kid with a 3.9 unweighted through 5 semesters of HS, with the most rigorous courses, and a 33 ACT will get in (even if kid drops during 6th semester, the GPA is still above any minimum). 

BTW, there are still open spots for that rising senior.

It is not uncommon for an offer to be made quite early(other sports are often earlier than BB), but some families forget that the offer is contingent on academics being up to snuff. We've seen a couple of HS'ers locally announce a commitment to an Ivy as a SO/Junior, only to have to change their plans come fall(or later) of senior year. 

Interest by an Ivy League school can be an incredible experience for a 15-16 year old.   Lots of thoughts run through their heads as well as their parents.   It is incredibly flattering, but at the same time I think the parents really need to be the voice of reason at this young age.   As Goosegg points out, Ivy offers are coming earlier than when his son and my son played.   Earlier Ivy recruitment has led to earlier Ivy commitments.   This is a double-edged sword that really has to be understood.  Yes, it can be a separator from the recruit pool but also can be a very slippery slope that can rob you of time and options in your recruiting efforts if things "go south".  

There are athletic and academic requirements that both have to be met, and clearly understood.    The risk is still 100% on the recruit to deliver the necessary academic metrics...there is no escaping Admission's requirements....and this is the biggest differentiator between other D1 schools...their process.   Their process requires you to wait for either a Likely Letter from Admissions or a letter of acceptance from Admissions that comes their senior year.   What this means is your son will probably have to turn down a number of D1 scholarship offers to continue to pursue an Ivy League opportunity that is still a verbal commitment.   As a parent, this didn't give me the warm and fuzzies.  It was what my son wanted so we took this leap of faith.

Anything not official from Ivy Admissions is just noise   I've known quite a few Ivy recruits that were verbally offered only to be told "no" when SAT/ACT business had to be finalized or there was the perception that the recruit wasn't performing at school.   It is devastating to witness, and even more devastating to these families.   If there is one thing to remember (Goosegg and I have been saying this for years) is get your SAT/ACT business taken care of upfront (soph year if possible) if your son has Ivy aspirations or even if an Ivy is a possibility.  

Good luck to all the Ivy recruits and their parent out there!

I'm by no means an expert as my son is just starting his HS freshman year, but he did attend an Ivy camp this summer (just happened to be a camp going on while we were on vacation). The head coach went through the admissions process with all of the parents there. One of his comments I thought was interesting is that admissions has gotten much more difficult for him since the other admissions scandals. He said as long as someone had a 33+ ACT and a strong GPA he could "support" them through admissions. Now they are scrutinizing each recruit much more than they were a year ago. 

Even if last year's admissions scandal didn't happen, the reality is that the ACT/SAT 25-75% ranges at the Ivys and top D3 HAs seem to get tighter and higher each year for the general student body. It seems that schools of this caliber now have a mid-50% ACT range of 33-35 and it's even 34-36 at places like MIT and Caltech. Yes, this means at least 25% of the general student body at MIT and Caltech has a 36 ACT which is incredible. Even Vanderbilt now has an ACT range of 33-35 for its general student body in 2023 class. Of course, it's somewhat expected that many athletes and other institutional need groups (URM, 1st gen) may constitute the lower 25% range, but you can imagine the pressure that admissions offices are placing on its coaches, especially for non-helmet sports (football, lacrosse, hockey, and basketball may have a bit more leeway), to have a minimum team ACT average that is around 32 or 33. The days of getting in with a sub-30 ACT even for a stud throwing 90+ mph may be getting harder simply because of AdCom pressure to not allow athletes to be too far away from the student body averages which seemingly creep higher each year.

Zoom 2020 posted:

Even if last year's admissions scandal didn't happen, the reality is that the ACT/SAT 25-75% ranges at the Ivys and top D3 HAs seem to get tighter and higher each year for the general student body. It seems that schools of this caliber now have a mid-50% ACT range of 33-35 and it's even 34-36 at places like MIT and Caltech. Yes, this means at least 25% of the general student body at MIT and Caltech has a 36 ACT which is incredible. Even Vanderbilt now has an ACT range of 33-35 for its general student body in 2023 class. Of course, it's somewhat expected that many athletes and other institutional need groups (URM, 1st gen) may constitute the lower 25% range, but you can imagine the pressure that admissions offices are placing on its coaches, especially for non-helmet sports (football, lacrosse, hockey, and basketball may have a bit more leeway), to have a minimum team ACT average that is around 32 or 33. The days of getting in with a sub-30 ACT even for a stud throwing 90+ mph may be getting harder simply because of AdCom pressure to not allow athletes to be too far away from the student body averages which seemingly creep higher each year.

For Ivy league schools yeah there is pressure. For schools like Vandy, Duke, UNC, and the like, there are plenty of athletes in non helmet sports that do not have a 30 on the ACT. The kids winning a national championship for Vanderbilt were brought in for their baseball abilities, not their ACT scores. The education is just the icing on the cake for them and part of the sell as to why you should go there over LSU, Miss St and the others. Now I'm not saying the kids from Vandy, Duke, and UNC are dummies but it is highly unlikely that the top baseball players in the country are also among the elite in the classroom as well posting 34-35 ACTs with 4.0s. From experience and from talking to others, there is definitely room to give when a national championship is a possibility. 

A kid from our high school went to Vanderbilt. He had a 4.25. It was either his forty time or his IQ. I’m not sure which. I played with the dads of two former Vanderbilt players who took zero honors courses in high school. When Yale won the NCAA hockey championship I doubt it was with a bunch of skating PBk’ers. I laugh when I hear a kid is choosing between Harvard and UMass for hockey. They’re not making an academic choice. 

RJM posted:

A kid from our high school went to Vanderbilt. He had a 4.25. It was either his forty time or his IQ. I’m not sure which. I played with the dads of two former Vanderbilt players who took zero honors courses in high school. When Yale won the NCAA hockey championship I doubt it was with a bunch of skating PBk’ers. I laugh when I hear a kid is choosing between Harvard and UMass for hockey. They’re not making an academic choice. 

Exactly. Kids choose between offers from Vandy and UF vs LSU/Kentucky/Miss St. Nothing wrong with going to any of the latter schools but let's be real. It's a baseball decision not necessarily an academic one. I would go as far as to say that some of these non HA schools are actually getting athletes well above the range of a typical accepted students as the baseball makes up for any academic shortcomings they might not be interested in as a regular student. 

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