How much would you count against the 11.7 if. . .

1. You would count as 10% of one of the 11.7 schollys. If devoting athletic money, the school would have to ensure that you had at least a 25% scholly in total in order to comply with NCAA regs.

2. You would be considered a walk-on -- one of the non-athletic-scholarship players that would fill up the roster size to a maximum of 35.

quote:

If you were getting half your school paid for academically and no bb money and you make the roster are you considered a walk-on or one of the 27 that are on scholarship.

You are consudered a member of the team. You may get some money latter on if some is freed up and you are good in the eyes of the coach.

quote:

Originally posted by HitaHomer1:
If you are getting 25% academic money and 10% BB money in fall 2008, do you count as 10% of one of the 11.7 scholleys or 35% of one of the 11.7 schollys.

If you were getting half your school paid for academically and no bb money and you make the roster are you considered a walk-on or one of the 27 that are on scholarship.

*****The key here is whether the academic money meets the 3.5gpa etal exception criteria of the NCAA.


Section 15 of the NCAA bylaws, with all their if/then exceptions can get twisty, to say the least

Exactly, OS. Critical requirement.

Don't know what the 3.5 g.p.a. etal exception is or what the criteria is. Can you help?? Thanks

One of the reasons for my question is I was wondering if it helps the coach if you can get part way to the 25% with academic money - does that leave him more money to give out.

And if you could tell a coach hey, if it makes a difference between me and that guy I have 50% academic money and I don't need any more would that be a plus in your favor b/c then you don't use one of the 27 man spots. But you wouldn't want to feel like you weren't on an equal playing field (the first day) with those 27.

This is why in state recruits that get state money for school are so highly sought after. Trust me, coaches will go for the academic money before baseball money. They need the athletic money to give to pitchers, catchers and those coming from out of state.

Remember, he also has a budget he needs to adhere to and only 11.7 to give away.

quote:

Originally posted by HitaHomer1:
Don't know what the 3.5 g.p.a. etal exception is or what the criteria is. Can you help?? Thanks

D1: academic 'ships don't count as athletic if - top 10 % of class or a core-course GPA of at least 3.5 or min. 105 ACT or 1200 SAT
D2: academic 'ships don't count as athletic if - top 20 % of class or a core-course GPA of at least 3.5 or min. 105 ACT or 1140 SAT
NAIA: 1200, 3.75 or 10%, gets academic exemption on 'ships. 3.6 to remain exempted.

quote:

Originally posted by HitaHomer1:
Don't know what the 3.5 g.p.a. etal exception is or what the criteria is. Can you help?? Thanks

15.5.3.2 Equivalency Computations. In equivalency sports, each institutional financial aid award (per
Bylaw 15.02.4.1) to a counter shall be computed as follows:

(a) Once a student becomes a counter, the institution shall count all institutional aid (per Bylaw 15.02.4.1) received for room, board, tuition and fees, and books up to the value of a full grant-in-aid. Books shall count for calculation purposes as $400 in the denominator and, if they are provided or their cost covered by the institution, as $400 in the numerator, regardless of the actual amount received. Exempted government grants per Bylaw 15.2.5 and exempted institutional aid per Bylaw 15.02.4.3 specifically are excluded from this computation. (Revised: 1/9/96 effective 8/1/96, 4/29/04 effective 8/1/04)

(b) A fraction shall be created, with the amount received by the student-athlete (up to the value of a full grant-in-aid) as the numerator and the full grant-in-aid value for that student-athlete as the denominator based upon the actual cost or average cost of a full grant for all students at that institution. Financial aid unrelated to athletics ability (see Bylaw 15.1) received by the student-athlete in excess of a full grant-inaid
shall not be included in this computation. (Revised: 1/10/90, 4/29/04 effective 8/1/04)

(c) The sum of all fractional and maximum awards received by counters shall not exceed the total limit for the sport in question for the academic year as a whole.

15.5.3.2.1 Exceptions.
15.5.3.2.1.1 Academic Honor Awards. Academic honor awards that are part of an institution’s
normal arrangements for academic scholarships, based solely on the recipient’s high school record and awarded independently of athletics interests and in amounts consistent with the pattern of all such awards made by the institution, are exempt from an institution’s equivalency computation, provided the recipient was ranked in the upper 10 percent of the high school graduating class or achieved a corecourse grade-point average of at least 3.500 (based on a maximum of 4.000) or a minimum ACT sum score of 105 or a minimum SAT score of 1200. (Adopted: 1/12/99 effective 8/1/99)

15.5.3.2.1.1.1 Additional Requirements. The following additional requirements shall be
met: (Adopted: 1/12/99 effective 8/1/99)

(a) The awards may include additional, nonacademic criteria (e.g., interviews, essays, need
analysis), provided the additional criteria are not based on athletics ability, participation or
interests, and the awards are consistent with the pattern of all such awards provided to all
students;
(b) No quota of awards shall be designated for student-athletes;
(c) Athletics participation shall not be required before or after collegiate enrollment;
(d) No athletics department staff member shall be involved in designating the recipients of such
awards;
(e) Any additional criteria shall not include athletics ability, participation or interests; and
(f ) There must be on file in the office of the director of athletics certification by the financial aid
director or the chair of the financial aid committee that such awards are part of the institution’s
normal arrangements for academic scholarships, awarded independently of athletics
ability, participation and interests and in amounts consistent with the pattern of all such
awards made by the institution.

15.5.3.2.1.1.2 Renewals. The renewal of an academic honor award (per Bylaw 15.5.3.2.1)
is exempt from an institution’s equivalency computation, provided: (Adopted: 1/12/99 effective
8/1/99)

(a) The recipient achieves a cumulative grade-point average of at least 3.000 (based on a maximum
of 4.000) at the certifying institution; and

(b) The recipient meets all NCAA, conference and institutional progress toward degree requirements.
15.5.3.2.1.2 Institutional Academic Scholarships. Institutional academic scholarships that are
part of an institution’s normal arrangements for academic scholarships, based solely on the recipient’s academic record at the certifying institution, awarded independently of athletics interests and in amounts consistent with the pattern of all such awards made by the institution, are exempt from an institution’s equivalency computation, provided the recipient has completed at least one academic year of full-time enrollment at the certifying institution and has achieved a cumulative grade-point average of at least 3.300 (on a 4.000 scale) at the certifying institution.

In other words if someone gets 4K baseball money toward a 20K yearly tuition cost of attendance, that is 25% of one full scholarship. Give someone 4000K academic $$ and it doesn't even count.

As one can see, 11.7 is very doable and coaches don't need to fully fund.

The percentage is of the cost of attendance, not just tuition.

Thanks that help. I didn't know there was certain criteria for the academic not to count. That helps though, my son has over the 105 and he's not a pitcher (at least if he goes DI he won't be), so that might help him.

It seems like the schools that aren't fully funded but still have to meet the 25% are going to have to go after kids that are getting academic in order to comply.

Could you explain the concept of "blending" ?

Here is the scenario

Player has a 35% scholarship as set forth in NLI

Then qualifies for 60% financial aid not based on gpa.

Doesn't he have to chose one or the other or larger amount counted against 11.7?

Or can it be blended at some later date?

How will this change in 2008?

quote:

Originally posted by brod:
Could you explain the concept of "blending" ?

Here is the scenario

Player has a 35% scholarship as set forth in NLI

Then qualifies for 60% financial aid not based on gpa.

Doesn't he have to chose one or the other or larger amount counted against 11.7?

Or can it be blended at some later date?

How will this change in 2008?

Then qualifies for 60% financial aid not based on gpa.


What is the 60% aid?


15.1.3 Recruited Student-Athlete Receiving Institutional Financial Aid. Unearned financial aid
(excluding loans) administered by an institution to an athletically recruited student is considered to be athletically related financial aid and is subject to the limitations set forth in Bylaw 15.1.

The only thing the chart dictates is that if the athlete is a counter(yes), and the aid doesn't meet any exceptions, than all 95% could count against the team equivalency?

**** I recall a recruit with a 3.1 gpa, and a major private school baseball program couldn't do much for him because the private institutional grant based on needs would count as baseball money due to the NCAA criteria, even though it was needs-based.

Question is, would that individual been better off as a non-counter enrolled as a non-recruited athlete, i.e no baseball money but a needs=based grant equal to 70% COA ?

I'm confused, in a post above it says one must have a 3.5 gpa 1200 sat to count as academic aid. Is this true with the new rule???

For instance, say in Ga. a kid with a 3.1 qualifiies for the hope grant and the grant is 35% of COA. I thought with the new rule the grant would not be counted towards the 11.7. But your saying since he didn't have a 3.5 it can not be counted as academic? Then how is it counted?

I am not sure that the NCAA has even figured out all the circumstances that will arise----

Example"

School A has only 4 funded scholarships

School B has the full 11.7 allotment funded

How do you equate the two programs in terms of the new rules?

Can the NCAA make a college spend more money than they want to for any given sport ?

School A COA 35,000.00

Funded Schollies 4 = 140,000

For 2009 27 players @ 25% scholly needed to meet new rule.

27 x 35,000 x 25% = 236,250 the school needs to spend to meet rule

The school can fund 16 schollys at 25% with current scholly budget.

Does that mean the school has to find at least 11 players that can qualify for academic aid with gpa's etc. 3.5+ and btw.. play baseball.

or

Is the school going to be forced to poney up more athletic money as TR mentioned

jeeze, for the non fully funded schools top students are going to be sought after like 90+ mph pitchers.

I could be way off base here, just thinking out loud. As an 09 Dad I want to have this stuff down.

quote:

Originally posted by TripleDad:
School A COA 35,000.00

Funded Schollies 4 = 140,000

For 2009 27 players @ 25% scholly needed to meet new rule.

27 x 35,000 x 25% = 236,250 the school needs to spend to meet rule

The school can fund 16 schollys at 25% with current scholly budget.

Does that mean the school has to find at least 11 players that can qualify for academic aid with gpa's etc. 3.5+ and btw.. play baseball.

or

Is the school going to be forced to poney up more athletic money as TR mentioned

jeeze, for the non fully funded schools top students are going to be sought after like 90+ mph pitchers.

I could be way off base here, just thinking out loud. As an 09 Dad I want to have this stuff down.

****Wasn't it determined here that the max counters will be 27 ?

That could mean certain teams will have less than 27 counters

quote:

Originally posted by TripleDad:
For instance, say in Ga. a kid with a 3.1 qualifiies for the hope grant and the grant is 35% of COA. I thought with the new rule the grant would not be counted towards the 11.7. But your saying since he didn't have a 3.5 it can not be counted as academic? Then how is it counted?

Those that qualify for hope scholarships only have to meet those requirements set by the state to receive that money. Some teams of state universities make up their roster on those students. In the past the coach would give them something more as an incentive (ex. money for housing, books). He would be considered a counter.
An academic scholarship given by the school usually has different requirements. Some get federal grants in addition to other academic money. All are considered non counters. The coach has an option to give either one additional funds.
There are many coaches that give out more in academic dollars than baseball money, that won't change. Remember 27 is the MAX, he doesn't have to give out anything.

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:

quote:

Originally posted by TripleDad:
For instance, say in Ga. a kid with a 3.1 qualifiies for the hope grant and the grant is 35% of COA. I thought with the new rule the grant would not be counted towards the 11.7. But your saying since he didn't have a 3.5 it can not be counted as academic? Then how is it counted?

Those that qualify for hope scholarships only have to meet those requirements set by the state to receive that money. Some teams of state universities make up their roster on those students. In the past the coach would give them something more as an incentive (ex. money for housing, books). He would be considered a counter.
An academic scholarship given by the school usually has different requirements. Some get federal grants in addition to other academic money. All are considered non counters. The coach has an option to give either one additional funds.
There are many coaches that give out more in academic dollars than baseball money, that won't change. Remember 27 is the MAX, he doesn't have to give out anything.

The magic words...........they are non-counters, otherwise, they are subject to the exemption criteria for team equivalency(11.7), UNLESS

somebody can show that to be untrue??

If you have a .50 gap between HOPE and NCAA, can we say that those HOPE qualifiers at 3.001 and 3.499 have to be non-counters with no original NLI to keep that money from counting toward the TEAM?

quote:

****Wasn't it determined here that the max counters will be 27 ?

That could mean certain teams will have less than 27 counters

So lets clarify, 27 kids on the team ARE going to get 25% scholly whether they are counters are not.

25% could include either academic or athletic $$,
to meet the rule.

The 11.7 does not change, that is the max Athletic Scholly available, we all know that.

Now the ncaa says you must have at least 27 with 25%
scholly, but academic can be included (very important for not fully funded programs), but if the 3.5/1200/top10% is the only way a kid can qualify as an academic counter(instead of an athletic counter) the ramifications are significant.

For instance, a kid gets 30% academic money, enough to make him a non-counter for the 11.7 BUT if he doesn't meet the min. ncaa standards for academic scholly, Does that 30% now have to be counted as athletic??

I'm sorry to push this, but the variables are many and VERY INTERESTING.

Now if all academic grants giving by the school (regardless if GPA/SAT/RANK) are going to be allowed to count towards the 27/25% that is a whole new ballgame (That is how I read the rule)

I did a spreadsheet on Ga tech and how they would benefit if there are no GPA restrictions imposed by the ncaa on academic money. Their ability to recruit out of state studs was/could be huge. But they would still need to increase their overall baseball budget. This is off the top of my head cuz I don't have it in front of me, but if they doubled their scholly budget they would have many full rides available to recruit the whole US, while still
giving the in state kids sweet deals.

No Tripledad,
It's simple. The MAX amount of scholleys that CAN be awarded is 27, it has to be at least 25% (combined or all baseball) and no more than 11.7. Counters (those that count in the 11.7) are those that get basball money only, whether it be all or combined, either way HAS to be no less than 25%.

The possibilities that make up roster would be, those with baseball money, those with academic and baseball money and those with academic only or those with nothing. The academic is only awarded IF the player meets the ncaa requirements to earn academic money from that particular school. Has nothing to do with hope scholarships, that's earned money the student gets to pay for school.
Whether he get 5% or 100% in any academic money, he is not considered toward the 11.7 count but still a member of the team.
There are many schools (take the Ivy League schools who do not give out baseball scholarships) who still can roster a team. There are many schools, even in big conference that do not fund all of the 11.7. Either they can't afford to or they don't want to. Baseball money comes from, the athletic department, not the academic department. They are provided either by money raised or by private endowments.
Got that?

OS,
In the past if the Hope money wasn't enough a coach could throw in baseball money to make the player happy and he would be a counter. I do not know if that hope scholarship money can be counted in the 25% (good question to ask the NCAA).

What is Hope money?

quote:

Originally posted by thats-a-balk!:
What is Hope money?

States have funds set aside for academic awards (tuition only)based on GPA and SAT/ACT scores for their instate students. In Florida it is called Bright Futures and funded by state lottery money. That money can be used for public or private, the best value of the award being used at public universities.

This money is helpful in recruiting instate students. As an example, the awards include 100% or 75% of tuition depending on performance. Has nothing to do with being an athlete or not. If you have a player who earned 100% tuition, your only costs are room and board and other fees. Coaches can pick up with baseball money other costs,if he wants, this is an enticement to stay instate.

quote:

bt TD: all academic grants giving by the school (regardless if GPA/SAT/RANK) are going to be allowed to count towards the 27/25% that is a whole new ballgame

there IS an ncca min requirement for institutional academic aid/grant, otherwise (as in bygone days) a school could pass out money in buckets to their athletes labeled as "academic aid"

quote:

No Tripledad,
It's simple. The MAX amount of scholleys that CAN be awarded is 27

So hypothetically, a fully funded program could offer 11 full rides 1 .7 ride and have 23 players
with no aid at all?

For some reason I was assuming that a min. 27 players had to recieve 25%

TD,
A program that wants top talent or get players not to committ to other programs has to spend $$.

Some programs have so many knocking on doors they don't need to pay anything, some just can't afford it.

Programs that fully fund give it out in pieces, usually the most to pitchers or players out of state. Some programs consider 10-15% the average, for position players. One of the reasons for the revolving transfer door, not enough given to keep them to sit on the bench.

The 11.7 comes out of the coaches athletic budget. The less he spends the more he has to spend on other things for the team unless he gets additional funding. That's usually why teams don't fully fund in baseball money and would rather give academic $$.

27 is max, before he could give to all 35 as long as he didn't go over the 11.7.

JMO, I also think that because of what some schools practiced in fall was a cause of the new rules.


There is nothing saying they have to spend any baseball money.

From NCAA news release:

The baseball legislation originally required individual financial aid packages for baseball student-athletes to include at least 33 percent athletics aid. The Board decided to lower the percentage of REQUIRED AID to individual players to 25 percent and to allow all countable aid to be included in the calculation toward the minimum, not just athletics aid.

I know they do not have to spend baseball money, but the above quote says required aid.

Can someone explain this..

I already know:
11.7 max scholly
27 max baseball counters in 09
academic aid can count towards the 25% minimum required.

quote:

Originally posted by TripleDad:
From NCAA news release:

The baseball legislation originally required individual financial aid packages for baseball student-athletes to include at least 33 percent athletics aid. The Board decided to lower the percentage of REQUIRED AID to individual players to 25 percent and to allow all countable aid to be included in the calculation toward the minimum, not just athletics aid.

25% to counters, up to 27 in any combination of monies to satisfy the individual amount. It appears the coaches will want the academic to be exempt from team equivlency, otherwise nothing is gained.

If a player received a $5000 academic award from the university, and has met the NCAA criteria for team exemption, he is personally satisfied as far as the 25% rule assuming a COA of $20,000.

If the kid is a high-level player, the coach would have to goose him up to get him to attend, so say he gave him another $5000 in baseball money. He is now a counter, and only 25% counts against the team.