How will you teach hitting?

1st Runger? Well at least my ladder is outside the garage. LOL!

Now John, lets work on that core. But coach, I don't have a bat. Son you don't need one. We are going to hit this ball with load. Look Ma, no arms, no hands ... You once noted that you had been a "coach." I now know why you got out.

Simply saying that the hands will set themselves. Now you once posted that coaches don't instruct.

Linear,

Dont forget those wrists and arms. The stronger - the better. IMO

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
1st Runger? Well at least my ladder is outside the garage. LOL!

Now John, lets work on that core. But coach, I don't have a bat....

Great attempt at diversion. Not unexpected for someone on the 1st rung who "promotes" himself as "the baseball guy" of your area. Your inability to open to this stuff because you don't like me, blue dog, or some other internet guy, or because "no one can tell me anything" hurts your kids.

If you were on rung 2 or 3, you would understand how to carry, load/unload with a bat.

But, you don't. Won't. Because your ego won't let you say........someone else knows this stuff more than I do.

And that ego is obtructionism. That ego stands between #6, #7, #8 and #9 becoming more than they ever thought they could be. It's quite obvious that #1-#5 in your program make you. You don't make them.

Shock and Awe!

quote:

BTW, I've read it, I've heard others say it, I've said it. Is it true? Is his batspeed subpar for mlb players? Or do you know?

His bat quickness has to rank with the high ones though.

I understand your point about quickness vs batspeed. It has some valdity/ usefulness in coaching for reasons we both know

Someone said " when somebody has a great swing you do not notice the body only the path of the bat. Some players are able to transfer all their energy to the striking surface of the bat by having it in the perfect orbit around the core and the barrel coming out at what appears to be the perfect time. Great swing and impeccable timing is hard to beat.

While their simple launch mechanics make them seem quicker and their effortless swing makes the ball appear to carry with less bat speed it IS possible that it is an illusion like a FP softball rising( if it is in the strike zone per MArk H) when it is not rising based on film.

Maintaining that perfect arc/angular acceleration vs drag could be proved to be faster by someone better at physics than me maybe.

Could it have to do with the fact that top bat speed somewhere during the swing is easier to measure than the actual acceleration curve at contact. And possibly a slightly faster bat speed measured at contact that is decelerating could be inferior to a slightly lessor speed that is still accelerating through contact even though the ball stays on the bat 1/2000 sec. Could happen that way technically I guess??

Many kids have the feeling that they need to help the ball out there by tugging harder on the knob( straight line hand path). Others seem to be born with the feeling that that bat tip is going to do the work and all their effort is focused on the release of the bat barrel rather than the fence.(CHP)

At the risk of "giving away the farm" the simple fact of the time between the load and the unload is what you don't get.

It's what every good hitter does. It's at the core of swing quickness. It's the ONLY way to possiblely generate quickness out of the body.

It's used in basketball, football, s****r, track, baseball. It's universal. It's very simple. It's right in front of you. It's the answer to ALL amateur hitters and most professional hitters.

Yet, the obstructionists overlook it. They go to the hands.

I can demonstrate it in 10 minutes. You can have an undersanding of it in 20 minutes.

If you learn to connect the arms to it you'll play at a very high level. That is what takes the time.

Buster

It is physically impossible to load/unload the hands and arms at the rate you can your center.

And, the act of loading the hands and arms is "in the way of" loading/unloading the center. It can't be done at the rate it needs to be done by 95% of all amateur hitters and still properly load/unload the center.

Yes, some professionals do it. And, they benefit from it. But you are in the way of their progression by teaching the arm action hitting philosophy.

Linear,

The farm you are concerned about giving away has been tilled for about the last 30 years.

There is much more to the swing than just the core.

Much much more.

That is the major problem with "the theory" - and that has been lacking from this "theory" from day 1. It is the "theory's" biggest flaw. IMO.

Richard, that post was in humor! At least I laughed when I posted it. Ego? NO ONE HAS A BIGGER ONE THAN YOU.

BLUEDOG? I defy you to find one post in the last 2 years where he and I have gotten after each other. Do we disagree? Sure! However, I think he and I agree a lot more than disagree. I truly respect what he is about.

Concerning the hands or lack thereof, I suggest to you that breaking down any baseball effort be it fielding, hitting, pitching, is the best way to enable a player to understand what they are doing. You simply suggest video and hit. Most coaches would be fired if that were their only course of action when working with their hitters. Sound familure!

More diversion. More history rewrite.

Nothing wrong with working on all parts of a swing.

But, it's a TOTAL waste of time unless and until they understand their center.

And, I'll guarantee your hitters don't.

And, you're costing them the benefits of it.

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:
Linear,

The farm you are concerned about giving away has been tilled for about the last 30 years.

There is much more to the swing than just the core.

Much much more.

That is the major problem with "the theory" - and that has been lacking from this "theory" from day 1. It is the "theory's" biggest flaw. IMO.

In less than 12 hours you've slipped off the ladder and are now reaching for rung #1.

Linear,

Another demotion? LOL - I have a funny feeling that my ladder is going to be hanging from the garage wall soon.


Your description of the core - and its importance to the swing is excellent IMO. But your theory has a major flaw. That is why I have never taken it very seriously.

quote:

And, the act of loading the hands and arms is "in the way of" loading/unloading the center

Your close to what I feel...the pattern of hand and arm movement is vital for some in assuring they will load the center. Shoulders load but hands are vital nuerologically in the sequence and rythym. It is subtle. Hands ****, hips coil, bend at waist, elbow internally rotates. Your right ..the hands don't do the loading ;they help initiate the move. You don't have to kill the feel in the hands to load the upper body.

Brain talks to hands not elbow. Hands conrol the bat tip and its path initially is counter to the hip rotation and this promotes connection. Better connection is a quicker/faster bat

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:

And, I'll guarantee your hitters don't.

And, you're costing them the benefits of it.

And I guarantee you know nothing about us but that history of success you can verify.

Now, if you now type that you believe in breakdowns, what do you breakdown since you don't believe in teaching hands/arms. You now going to suggest you do? Only the base is left for you.

Sorry - added this:

I once pmed you our Hitter's Sheet. It contained a lengthy description of core and load. Rewrite history? BTW, others here who have had discussions of hitting have asked and I have shared. They can verify this handout.

The lack of emphasis - and in many cases - the complete disregard of the hands/wrists/arms - is the major flaw of the "theory".

They need to work on that critical oversight. IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:
The lack of emphasis - and in many cases - the complete disregard of the hands/wrists/arms - is the major flaw of the "theory".

They need to work on that critical oversight. IMO.

While standing on that first runge, I noticed you standing there as well. We agree one hundred percent.

CoachB,

I am on the ground - again. LOL

Please do not fall on me.

Richard,

Check your PM...

David

Let me pick a non starter who could play for you if he could hit. (the no bat ss, 2B, C; the position you don't have a player for and will choose among 2 or 3)

Give me 3 months, 3 visits per week.

I bet he's in your lineup. I bet before the season is over he hits higher than 9th. Don't know your team but I bet I can get him #7 or better. And, if he's a soph I bet he leads your team in some offensive categories by the time he's a senior.

quote:

Brain talks to hands not elbow.

Yes, because the hands have ruled body actions since birth.....This is the muscle memory cycle that needs to be broken, IMO......Train the brain to ignore the hands and arms and speak to other body parts.....The hands and arms should connect to those other body parts the brain will then be speaking to.....If you are successful in doing this, a new awareness, and level, of "bat quickness" will prevail....

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:
CoachB,

I am on the ground - again. LOL

Please do not fall on me.

I'm a big guy but I bounce! LOL!

I do agree that with hitting there are some factors of the swing that are "results" of the swing. Linear suggest that the hands/arms are. I believe that "finish" is a result. Players often ask me whether they should release on finish. To each their own. The ball is long been either hit or missed by that point on the swing. The factor on "finish" that are important are that belly button and balance.

quote:

It can't be done at the rate it needs to be done by 95% of all amateur hitters and still properly load/unload the center.

It is all about when you start....timing...there is not limit on when you start. They must understand and execute the move of course.

Are we saying that we are teaching something that is suboptimum because we assume they cannot do it?

Watch the bat tip of Ruth, Aaron,.....they were simply trying to do what Olerud was doing...get some pop at the bat barrel on all pitch locations....move some barrel through the zone.

***** defined bat drag I guess. It was a great observation. When his model took away all arm and hand action he made sure bat drag would be around along time. ( I am not talking about a big pump...watch Pujols, Cabrerra, Bergmon,. He defined scap load....great...now lets talk about how to scap load better because it isn't happening at the park like you say often enough and kids are dragging like crazy.

CoachB25,

Just an aside - I love the "Qualities of a Knight" intro you have on your team's website.

That is really good stuff IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:
CoachB25,

Just an aside - I love the "Qualities of a Knight" intro you have on your team's website.

That is really good stuff IMO.

Thanks! I have good kids that adhear to those principles. BTW, the coaches you see there with me were former College All-Americans. I have a top notch staff of great people.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

Yes, because the hands have ruled body actions since birth.....This is the muscle memory cycle that needs to be broken, IMO......Train the brain to ignore the hands and arms and speak to other body parts.....The hands and arms should connect to those other body parts the brain will then be speaking to.....If you are successful in doing this, a new awareness, and level, of "bat quickness" will prevail....

Bluedog,

Linear mentioned that this "theory" is relevant to all sports. You seem to agree.

I would strongly suggest to you that - if you are playing football or hockey - and you "train your brain" to ignore the hands and arms - you will be knocked unconscious - quickly.

quote:

It is all about when you start....timing...

I don't think so.....IMO, it's about quickness.....May I explain....

I hear Coaches all the time say, get your hands through quicker.....This is very confusing to a hitter as they are already getting their hands through as quick as they can.....There is no quicker for them.....If they start earlier, they don't have time to recognize the pitch.....

Great hitters start their swing very late and have the quickness to get the bat around to the ball, anyway.....They do not depend on the hands and arms to do so.....The quickness they need comes from much bigger muscles.....

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuster:
... It is all about when you start....timing...there is no limit on when you start...

Well, talk about a sentence that can be interpreted 50 different ways by 50 different people.

I believe I know what you mean. I also believe most don't.

There definately is a limit to when you can start because it greatly affects the quality of the load/unload.

Not my intention to offend a “kid”. I thought I was addressing a 22-23 year old but I must be mistaken. Sorry. Hard to find “truth” and facts on the Internet sometimes.

IMO - The best analogy - as it regards this discussion - combining quickness,speed,power and accuracy would be boxing.

Having boxed for many years, I can say with absolute certainty that the "core" is the foundation.

However, deemphasizing the strength and use of the hands and arms - leads to a quick knockout - and severe bruising.

LOL

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:
...I would strongly suggest to you that - if you are playing football or hockey - and you "train your brain" to ignore the hands and arms - you will be knocked unconscious - quickly.

Ladder is being walked back to the garage.

Nothing like stretching what has been said into something that doesn't exist.

quote:

Bluedog,

Linear mentioned that this "theory" is relevant to all sports. You seem to agree.

Really?.......I don't remember saying this.....I try really hard to stay on the topic of hitting since that's the only area I have spent countless number of hours researching and using trial and error to prove or disprove theory..........

Maybe you can show me where I went astray?......

Linear,

You got to fix that major flaw. You would be doing the theory a great service if you did. IMO.

The ladder has been hung up - but I am still worried about Coach B flattening me when he comes tumbling down.

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:
IMO - The best analogy - as it regards this discussion - combining quickness,speed,power and accuracy would be boxing.

Having boxed for many years, I can say with absolute certainty that the "core" is the foundation.

However, deemphasizing the strength and use of the hands and arms - leads to a quick knockout - and severe bruising.

LOL

Not a bad analogy. Just not complete. You can swing at your opponent anytime you want. You don't have to swing if you don't want.

But when you have to swing your bat is dictated to you by the pitcher. Or the umpire.

Bluedog,

Sorry about that then.

Just dont teach that stuff to any kid playing a contact sport.
If you do - they will get hurt.

quote:

Bluedog:

I’m confused.

THop, good post......I agree, you are confused...

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:

Not a bad analogy. Just not complete. You can swing at your opponent anytime you want. You don't have to swing if you don't want.

But when you have to swing your bat is dictated to you by the pitcher. Or the umpire.

Linear,

I dont want to divert away from the hitting discussion - so I apologize for that analogy. Let me just say it sounds like you have never boxed.

Again - sorry for going a bit off course there - I thought the analogy might help.

It appears I've boxed as much as you've hit.

LOL

That was good!

quote:

Just dont teach that stuff to any kid playing a contact sport.
If you do - they will get hurt.

Game, diversions such as the above is exactly why your posts are most of the time meaningless.......Your post has absolutely nothing to do with anything Linear, or myself, has said on this thread.....More to the point, your post has nothing at all to do with hitting....

Bluedog,

It appears as if you arent getting it.

Read all of the stuff again - about the interaction and importance of the core and the arms/hands/wrists - and get back to me. We are all talking about that interaction - with varying perspectives.

Take your time reading it all so it sinks in.

Game, I see you have apologized for the diversion........

I, too, like boxing.....I consider it the purest form of sport that exists.....JMO...

quote:

We are all talking about that interaction - with varying perspectives.

Not so......We are talking about hitting....Plain and simple.....

I am thrilled that you like boxing.

Now read the stuff again - concentrate - and see if you can connect the dots.

Game, you are the only one talking about perspectives involving other sports.....You are having a conversation with yourself, as usual......

Linear - and Coaches/everyone else here,

I am enjoying the conversation. Thought provoking.
But could you please get the Bluedog to stop barking.

Where is the "arm action" in this swing?

He is different than most.

He connects differently.

But, this is mightly good rotation with connection.

Right click, choose "save target as", play it frame by frame.

There is NO arm action in this swing.

Game, as per hitting into a heavy bag......Not a good thing to do if a hitter is driving the bat into the bag with their hands and arms...But, if the driving force is the shoulders (big muscles), it is a great hitting drill.....It's all about understanding and the correct use of drills....This is the area you are deficient.....

Bluedog,

We are straying - but as far as the hitting bag goes - as I said two years ago - I think it is insane for youth players.

The risk/reward of using a 200 pound bag of sand and a bat as a training technique is crazy.

It has nothing to do with understanding a drill and everything to do with exposing youth players to serious potential injury.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:


Where is the "arm action" in this swing?

He is different than most.

He connects differently.

But, this is mightly good rotation with connection.

Right click, choose "save target as", play it frame by frame.

There is NO arm action in this swing.

I see arm action everywhere. As well as alot of other great "actions".

I think it is something that we will never agree on - but the discussion is interesting - I think.

Its

I've detected an effort to "get along" by you.

It is appreciated.

But, you are completely wrong about the heavy bag.

Think about "throwing" the bat with out releasing it. Not that that is a good hitting cue but it will help you understand how it feels when a good swing hits the bag.

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:


Where is the "arm action" in this swing?

He is different than most.

He connects differently.

But, this is mightly good rotation with connection.

Right click, choose "save target as", play it frame by frame.

There is NO arm action in this swing.

I see arm action everywhere. As well as alot of other great "actions".

I think it is something that we will never agree on - but the discussion is interesting - I think.

You haven't had time to play it frame by frame. Do so. Notice where the barrel remains as the rear elbow is lowered. It did not generate ANY batspeed. It's still where it stared.

Hitting into a heavy bag also helps explain the insignificance of strong hands and/or wrists........If the big muscles are swinging the bat, the hitter feels nothing in the hands and/or wrists when the bat hits the bag.......

Linear,

You and I have gone back and forth on this one in the past.

I think it is very dangerous for youth players.

One wrong swing - and you have a serious injury.

Just not worth it - and I hope there are other, safer ways to train the swing for the young player. IMO.

Palease.

Its

I am with you regarding "hitting the bag"--- all I see in this exercise is shocking the joints and most kids prior to 16 do not have their joints solidified as yet thus "jelly" is being jolted in the joints. The body is not meant to take such blows and jolts.

These are not my thoughts but those of a ortho/sports doc who handles pro teams and was my kids sports doc as they grew up


Sorry Linear buy once again I must differ with you despite the fact you think I know "squat"=== perhaps in the year of 2006 (Year of the Old Codger) you will learn that some of old codgers know what the heck we are talking about.

Richard,

What program do you use for frame-by-frame viewing?

David

You can download Quicktime FREE from apple.com.

The right and left arrow keys will toggle the clip frame by frame.

quote:

These are not my thoughts but those of a ortho/sports doc who handles pro teams and was my kids sports doc as they grew up

Great example of how MLB hitting technique has been misunderstood for many years......The Dark Ages are over for those who want to spend the time to learn.....There is a place to learn this stuff.....It's easy to find......

Orthos repair injuries.

Why would you ask him how to swing.

Until he's spent some time training athletes all they do is guess on training issues. Educated guesses but not very good ones.

Of course, an uneducated (training wise) doctor will say "stop doing that".

Once he's learned how to do it he will say something completely different.

If you've every chopped wood you would understand how to create momentum of the axe without causing an injury when you hit the tree.

TR

The ladder. Get it out.

Linear,

For a youth athlete - "learning the swing" - the risk/reward equation of that training aid is a no go - IMO.

Let me just say - if Coach B - AND - TRhit both fall off the ladder - and onto me - I am dead.

What's a ladder?

According to Game, I guess youngsters shouldn't help their Dads chop wood.......Not with an axe, anyway.....That doggone axe stops when it hits wood....But, maybe, just maybe, if the youngster used his shoulders to power the swing of the axe instead of his wrists/hands/arms, he might just get the wood chopped, and.........Never mind, this takes some thought and theory proving....Too much thinking.....

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

It is all about when you start....timing...

I don't think so.....IMO, it's about quickness.....May I explain....

I hear Coaches all the time say, get your hands through quicker.....This is very confusing to a hitter as they are already getting their hands through as quick as they can.....There is no quicker for them.....If they start earlier, they don't have time to recognize the pitch.....

Great hitters start their swing very late and have the quickness to get the bat around to the ball, anyway.....They do not depend on the hands and arms to do so.....The quickness they need comes from much bigger muscles.....

Itsinthegame, my ladder has been put up so many times that I now use a step ladder instead of an extension ladder. (LOL)

Bluedog, Agreed that statements about "get your hands quicker" is not a good analogy to use. IT promotes "casting." You might call it disconnected. Agreed that the core muscles help make the hands quicker as they stay "connected" to the core. This still doesn't explain how to get those hands "set" or ready to work in conjunction with the core. However, I understand that on hands, we will never agree. Agree on timing as well. Good hitters "let the ball get to them." Again, we drill this. Know drills aren't big in Linear's agenda but here goes ours. We place a Jugs pitching machine screen in front of a hitter. We take a plate and put a diagonal line on it from front point (batter's side) to half-plate (opposite side of plate.) Now, a tosser throws balls to positions on the plate. Inside, down the middle, and opposite. The batter works on letting the ball get to them and then hit the ball in the general area where the ball is thrown. We add cones as "targets for success." Well, that's how we drill that concept.

No theory here, just another drill that Linear will disapprove of.

Linear, those arms DO move in that clip as they move with shoulders. They don't stay fixed in one position with the body! They move forward and then the trunk joins in.

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
...Know drills aren't big in Linear's agenda but here goes ours.

You're like my wife. If my son has a car accident while going to a party it's the party's fault. I'm not sure whose fault it is if he has an accident on the way to church. I have no problem with drills. I just think the drill should resemble the swing.

quote:

Linear, those arms DO move in that clip. They don't stay fixed in one position with the body! They move forward and then the body joins in.

OH MY GOD. This is completely false and proves you didn't look frame by frame.

He lowers his high elbow down by what most call the slot. I don't believe in elbow slotting so don't take this wrong. But, for those of you who do, his elbow lowers near the slot. Take the video frame by frame until you're at that spot.........The barrel hasn't moved but very very slightly. ABSOLUTELY NO SWING HAS BEGUN. He has done something very important but he hasn't begun swinging yet. NOW, look how far and how much the body rotates before the barrel ever moves from the inital or nearly initial launch point.

I want to see you duplicate that body rotation with the barrel in the spot it is for him and then swing with your arms. YOU CAN'T DO IT.

Now, wait, the other day, you said pictures are worthless when evaluating a swing. Isn't frame by frame just pictures? I don't need to see it frame by frame as you say when you 'show me the video." Look at the hands, they begin the swing before the trunk begins rotation. Now, the upper body rotates as we have said all along but those hands DO start a movement before the trunk joins in. Argue all you want on that.

Oh, the drill stuff. Again, as I posted earlier, what can you possibly drill after the core since that is all you believe in?

Bluedog,

Let me keep it simple for you - because you are getting all tangled up.

Swinging an object at another immovable object will damage your joints. If you want to chop wood for 20 years - be my guest. Your joints will be messed up when all is said and done. Even if you do it perfectly - your joints will be damaged.

Swinging a baseball bat into a 200 pound bag of sand is a recipe for disaster.

It isnt very complicated - and most people dont have to think about this for very long.

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
...I don't need to see it frame by frame

Watching a still picture is worthless. Watching still frames advance one by one is priceless.

You are unbelievable. We need to continue this discussion. Maybe a parent or administrator in your area will witness this.

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:
Bluedog,

Let me keep it simple for you - because you are getting all tangled up.

Swinging an object at another immovable object will damage your joints. If you want to chop wood for 20 years - be my guest. Your joints will be messed up when all is said and done. Even if you do it perfectly - your joints will be damaged.

Swinging a baseball bat into a 200 pound bag of sand is a recipe for disaster.

It isnt very complicated - and most people dont have to think about this for very long.

TRANSLATION:

I have my belief and no facts will change my mind.

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
Look at the hands, they begin the swing before the trunk begins rotation...

I love it when I win.

Of course, I don't have any trophies to show for it. I'm too involved helping kids be better while the "lineup card maker outer" is filling his mantle.

The hands are virutally stationery when the rotation begins and they remain so for a couple of frames after rotation. I count 5 frames of rotation before the hands do anything.

Linear,

When I see a fact that proves to me that slamming a bat into a 200 pound bag of sand is safe - I will reconsider.

Until such time - it is a no go for youth players IMO.



And tell Bluedog - Axe analogies wont cut it. (no pun intended)

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
...I don't need to see it frame by frame

Maybe a parent or administrator in your area will witness this.

And everyone said you didn't have a sense of humor. They interest have one thing in common. They like winning 24 games/year. Of course, you could always come over an apply. So, thus far in this discussion, I've listed drills we do and you've listed nothing. Drills Teacherman Drills?

B25? Where'd you go?

I'll decline even if they offer it to me. I can't afford it.

But, you better learn to study video.

Pay attention to what that center does before the hands do anything.

I can give you some "center drills" if you'd like.

I will agree to hold the ladder up for Coach B - for $12 per hour. Plus travel expenses.

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
...Drills Teacherman Drills?

There you are.

Coy attempt at changing the subject to look better?

Show me where Pujols hands are moving prior to rotation. Please.

CoachB25

Did you expect the two _"I GOT ALL THE ANSWERS, I AM NEVER WRONG" guys, Linear and Blue Dog to give examples ?--- they have none--they just regurgitate from their GURU and his "TEACHING SITE"

Coach -- a happy new year to you and your family

I will also agree to hold TRHit's ladder up - for slightly less - but only because I know him for so long.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
CoachB25

Did you expect the two _"I GOT ALL THE ANSWERS, I AM NEVER WRONG" guys, Linear and Blue Dog to give examples ?--- they have none--they just regurgitate from their GURU and his "TEACHING SITE"

Coach -- a happy new year to you and your family

I was just informed TR doesn't even own a ladder.

Linear - this isnt shaping up very well. IMO.

Coach B is on rung #1 - and falling.

I have fallen off the ladder - and am laying on the ground - about to be crushed.

And TR doesnt even have a ladder.

I fear we need a quick trip to Home Depot and a pickup truck.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:
B25? Where'd you go?

I'll decline even if they offer it to me. I can't afford it.

But, you better learn to study video.

Pay attention to what that center does before the hands do anything.

I can give you some "center drills" if you'd like.

Guys, I don't need anyone to hold my ladder up. It now is down to two steps and a jump.

Where'd I go. I'm trying to corrupt kids in my classroom by teaching the Civil War. In other words, I'm doing my lesson plans for the next 2 weeks. Here we have to turn them in. NO fly by night stuff here. Still, I'm going to let the North win again. Just as I thought though no interest in really doing the job. Theory v reality. You are entertaining though. You are the master of the redirection. I've requested several times for you to address issues on hitting and yet, you seem to be the one changing directions. Drills?

Coach B25
Another job opportunity - gone.

Personally - I am thinking about switching to a rope ladder - and a thick padded mat - so when I hit the ground - it wont hurt so much.

LOL

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Pujols hands start moving just about the time his front heel hits the ground. Why? because that is when his mind (timing) says to let them go. They then aggressively help move the barrel towards the ball. The hips help do a couple of things. 1. they rotate to help with power. 2. They rotate out of the way so the hands can make an aggressive palm up palm down move and get the barrel going towards the ball.

The feet, shoulders, legs etc. also play their parts in the swing.

Is there anyone here that thinks that the hands are just along for the ride in the swing and that they provide no power to the swing?

You see exactly what I see. While that movement isn't "big" it is there as I see it. BE CAREFUL, LINEAR MAY WANT YOUR BOSSES TO FIRE YOU.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:

Is there anyone here that thinks that the hands are just along for the ride in the swing and that they provide no power to the swing?

Please count me in for a resounding NO.

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:
Coach B25
Another job opportunity - gone.

Personally - I am thinking about switching to a rope ladder - and a thick padded mat - so when I hit the ground - it wont hurt so much.

LOL

Just took my step ladder back to the garage. No chance for me to get above that first runge. Hopeless all is hopeless. GUESS I'LL HAVE TO USE AN ESCALATOR. lol!

Just trying to get CoachB25 to acknowledge that Pujols hands do not start his swing as he said earlier. He claims they move first.

You are right, scout. They start to move about the time the heel hits the ground which is about 5 frames into his rotation. And the barrel hasn't moved much at all until the rotation starts.

So, where is all the arm action that TomG and Swingbuster and CoachB25 believe in?

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25
...You see exactly what I see. While that movement isn't "big" it is there as I see it. BE CAREFUL, LINEAR MAY WANT YOUR BOSSES TO FIRE YOU.

You are such a suck up. What happened to they move prior to rotation? Now you say they move at heel drop. Which is about 5 frames after rotation begins.

And, I'm not after anyones job. But, it would be nice if people would recognize the state of high school baseball coaching.

I think some of it has been exposed here.

Didn't say that the hands start the swing. Again, you have our hitting sheet since I'm sure that you copied it. It states that the upper body moves as a unit. Earlier I also stated, "Linear, those arms DO move in that clip. They don't stay fixed in one position with the body! They move forward and then the trunk joins in." I do not believe that anywhere in here it says that I said that the hands went first, in relationship to the whole swing. Here is an interesting question. If the hands move in conjunction with the whole upper body in load, then are the hands moving? LOL!

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
...They move forward and then the trunk joins in.

That would be first to me.

I may have fallen off the ladder - laying on the ground - crushed by both CoachB and TR - but at least I answered the question. LOL



I need some Advil

Linear, be care of the name calling. You TOOL you. LOL! bbscout, he can't answer questions with answers only questions with other statements or name calling and he said he won.

Boyz, this has been fun and Linear too. Have to go corrupt some more youth. This time my kid. She can't hit either. LOL!

BYW, Happy New Year to Everyone! May 2006 bring you all much happiness and health.

I just edited this post for spelling and made a mistake.

No desire to change anything. But, I'm retyping from memory. Please add what I forget.

In the high level swing that we all strive to achieve, yes, the hands are along for the ride. The swing we want and hope to take against the pitch we're expecting will have the hands along for the ride.

Check out the Pujols clip. Hands are along for the ride. Check out frames 9 -13. Hands maintain their same relationship to the body. All the way to contact.

I've always said more strength is better than less strength. But, hand strength has nothing to do with executing a high level swing.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:

I've always said more strength is better than less strength. But hand strength has little to do with executing the perfect high level swing.

Linear - IMO - You are getting there - in small increments.

Now - what about wrist and arm strength?

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Linear, I use frame by frame just like you and many others. What you are watching is a guy (Pujols) who is using his hips,legs, back, shoulders and hands to his best advantage.

What I would like you to try is this....set balls on a tee at your local field and hit as many as you would like until you feel that you have hit your best bolt. Measure how far the ball goes. Then take your top or bottom hand off the bat completely and hit as many balls as you want and then measure how far the ball goes using only one hand in the swing.

The distance measured between the two will not even be remotely close.

That is a totally riduculous experiment that has nothing to do with what the hands offer in a swing.

That being said, you and I both know a guy who can hit the ball 250'+ off a T, with his lead arm only.

That's pretty sporty. And the hands have nothing to do with it.

And, as this guy says, you have to "become one" with the bat. You and the bat are one unit. And, there is one move to the ball by that "one" unit.

The hands are not given any specific role. They are part of the "whole". They have their role just like everything else....to glue everything together into one. But, you'll never have a high level swing until your entire body works as one.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
It would only be ridiculous to someone who was deathly afraid that it would mess up their belief system.

It's not ridiculous to someone who has little understanding of how the body works as a unit.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:

The hands are not given any specific role. They are part of the "whole". They have their role just like everything else....to glue everything together into one. But, you'll never have a high level swing until your entire body works as one.

You need strong glue.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
George Brett could hit the ball close to 300 feet with a full swing off a tee. If you can find a guy who uses only his lead arm and swings a standard 34" 31 oz wood bat and says he can hit the ball 250 feet on the fly, I will show up with some cash to bet. I am not talking about the phony "V" grip. I am talking about a one hand swing with the other hand not touching the bat from start to finish.

I'll get back to you.

You add "on the fly". I know what I've been told but I don't know whether it was on the fly or after roll. Either way, if it's true it's VERY strong.

And, I'll check the V grip thing but I believe it is not involved.

Talking about the glue and the parts and creating "one". That is exactly what ALL of the body parts do. And, if you have a strength deficit in any part, your whole isn't as good. So, strength overall is important.

But, I have to tell you about my mattress. Several years ago for Christmas I bought these "Sleep number" mattresses for our family. They are wonderful.

But, I wasn't home when they were delivered and the left everything in my front yard.......In long narrow boxes that resembled 2 X 12's about 8 feet long.

Well, I took them inside and started assembling the parts.

I thought I got took. The boxes (used to be box springs) were made of very very light plastic material and looked very weak. Flimsey even. However, when you put them together as a unit, they are strong as hell.

The hands play their role in creating a very strong box. They do not go to the ball. They do not swing the bat. They, along with the arms and shoulders provide connection of the bat to the rotating body. When done right, they do so with no slack or slop.

Similar to my mattress, the parts come together to form a strong unit. Breaking the unit by moving the arms and letting them go on their own, greatly weakens the whole.

As you know, I own a business that involves customers that like to gamble.

Story is a guy in Wisconsin bet someone he could hit a golf ball over 1000 yards in one stroke.

Well, when the money got right he took them to Lake Michigan in January and he hit the ball over the ice and it may still be going.

Similar story, different twist.

quote:

Where is the "arm action" in this swing?

Linear,
Arm and action on PUJOLS

Lead elbow begins down close to body, rear elbow moves higher causing the bat to be splitting helmet( or higher on some swings) as bottom hand works under top hand on load.

NOW

The the reverse happens, bat tip accelerates backwards as bat barrel plane changes down toward the 45 slot as hands begin to flatten . Lead elbow works up into plane of the pitch and rear elbow works down to slot AFTER the hips begin rotation.

This is arm and hands action....starting in the 45 slot , pushing the shoulder back starting and staying in the 45 slot is no arm and hand action i. e. Gongalez, Olerud.

Ny*** posted a clip of Pujols swearing it..bat tipping/plane change( arm and hand action) was not happening in a HR derby. He posted the clip starting it after the tipping of the bat which was more exaggerated in the derby than is a game swing for all of them . Why , because they can get more bat speed
( prelaunch torque) Mankin . He left several frames out to prove his incorrect point of view. Thats when I knew he would go to any lengths to be right. I watched the HR derby and saw most of the players including Pujols do it about 100 times