How will you teach hitting?

Swing

About angular momentum from stationary position>

I subscribe to no less than 70 degree angle when refering to stationary bat position.

Anything less than that is too flat and to me and can be considered wrapping.

The key for my hitters is the follow-through and extension through the swing zone without wrapping or flattening bat to generate power.

Shep

BB

The position of the bat changes so much for MLB hitters before rotation. A stationary picture like the one of Brett could change several times before actual rotation begins.

Shep

Don't forget about Cobb. He had one peach of a hitch. That was then, this is now.

Shep

T.Speaker,J.Robinson,Stan Musial,...

The list could go on and on.

Shep

Lets get back to importance of strong legs.

Did anyone notice how big and strong BBs legs looked in BBscout's video clip?

If you post another old clip of Hank Aaron, you will notice big strong legs.

The greatest power-hitters have the big strong legs.

Shep
PS(linear-strong legs provide a little more than just a base-would you agree?)

quote:

extension through the swing zone .

Shep

This is my biggest area of concern

As far as strong legs......I support that idea ...but you will not get much clinical/ mechanical data on this board to place a high priority there. I tried ground up years ago and I struck out

swingbuster

If you initiated talks on extension in the follow-through without support on this board, you know more than they do.

References that support this hitting component at Major League level is a majority and where I come from its more than just cornbread and biscuits, its majority rules at the highest level.

Major League Scouting Bureau showed us hours and hours of video supporting this component at Scout Development School. The late great Carroll Sembera would not be pleased to know this about the gurus here on this board. Of course, the bureau's knowledge wasn't always public. MLSB videotape technician will probably be seeing the other Brett this spring

Shep Cares

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
...The batters with the hitch, starting with Ruth and going all the way to Bonds are the guys who hit with power.

Maybe most, but not all. Mark McGwire was almost as still as a statue.

quote:

Originally posted by Shepster:
swingbuster

"extension in the follow-through"

Please define your terminology.

Linear

Must say, glad your back. Mac is an excellent example of a hitter I like.

Shep

Extension in follow-through>

Self-Explanatory

Shep

I rarely see someone not extend in the follow through.

But, I see no significance in it.

He did pretty good when he was as thin as a bean pole his first year or two.

I guess the best way I can explain extension in the follow-through is the hitter putting emphasis, almost over accentuating, the swing after contact so the swing doesn't slow down too much or only become 75% completed.

Thats what professional hitting instructors are trying to accomplish when they drill hitters to have nice high finish in follow-through after contact. Almost like pretending to still be in contact with ball and not chopping and stopping-LOL

Shep

Hey, just evented new terminology. Better get patent quick on "chopping and stopping" in follow-through of hitter's swing-lol

Shep

shep...not disagreeing...

there is not much frame by frame going on there that one can quantify.

Ruth....if anyone has a clip...his flick away from his body of the bat tip is an interesting trigger to hip coil and get inside the ball.

We fail to see the physics in some MLB players swings idiosyncrasies and label them a "hitch".

We just right it off to style but these is more going on there

Even the pump of the hands can delay the true swing to allow more time to get the foot down. All timing mechanisms work toward synching the upper and lower body...most people thing they have to do with deciding when to swing

BB

Just downloaded quicktime software, hope it doesn't cost. Send you bill if it does since it was your baseball clip that required it-JK LOL

Shep

Swingbuster

Would rather to short flick than long hitch,

Wouldn't you agree?

Shep
PS(BB-fixen to look at clips now) Give me a couple of minutes-not as fast as Linear and swing-lol

BB

Looked at Kevin and Matt several times and almost disgusted they can get away with those massive hitches-LOL

Did notice extension in follow-through and not chop and stop though.

Also noticed huge strong legs, especially in KM.


Shep

Here's the beanpole...

Lean Mac

Your right linear.

Don't you just love to hear those words reluctantly oozing from the Shep's mouth-LOL

Sorry about the typing. Still hunting and pecking after all these years. Took me about 1000 hours to type graduate school research dissertation-no joke-LOL

Shep

quote:

Originally posted by Shepster:
Your right linear.

Don't you just love to hear those words reluctantly oozing from the Shep's mouth-LOL

My goal is to get Swingbuster and tom.guerry to say it.

Another thing about that teachersbilliards school of hard-knocks clip I just viewed was the amount of force at impact. So much in fact, he appears to rock back a little as if he is off-balance.

Shep

Yes linear, I was paying attention to your earlier post explaining where and how you attained your experience. Liked the reda$$ comment even though it made me blush again.

Shep

I think you like to blush.

Scout

Will he be elected to the HOF?

Alright now linear, thats not true.

I wonder if I could have hit more than 48 reg. season 5 post season homeruns with some of those S vitamins in two seasons in college-Naww,
that would take away from it.

Shep

Only be true to thyself.

I can at least say my power came from proper instruction, collards and chicken and not those type vitamins.

Shep
PS(proper bat angle for LHH is /)

I feel for all the guys who wouldn't do it and were passed over

Yep

Good point BB. Thousands if not tens of thousands.

Shep

Woops I meant linear.
Shep

Never forget that during year of strike. Can compare that to Mick's chances to break the record before the knee injury opening the door for the one being chastised RM who broke the previous record of sixty with sixty-one.

Shep

You guys are too old for me.

BB

That "long stride" was also incredible in the Babe's swing and this is why that was then and this is now.

Shep
PS(Thank You for sharing that)

Scout,

My young son who couldn't hit the ball off a T when he was in 9th grade is mashing the ball in the cages (off both Iron Mike machine and me throwing). He's a freshman at a DIII.

Going to be interesting to see how he develops. He's just now "feeling" like he can play.

That lunge is the ultimate pelvic load/unload.

We constantly fight the bigger bigger, better better, faster faster syndrome.

By that I mean, he'll get it going, start ripping line drives, one after another, then he tries harder and harder, swings faster and faster, trys to hit 500' HR's until he can't hit a thing.

Then we start all over again. Back off, find the rhythm and after 10 pitches or so he's fine.

Then, faster, faster, better, better, harder, harder.........and we start all over again.

He has to memorize that effort level that brings out the good swing......not the other one.

Okay, we can call it the hitters stride then.

Wow it must be 40 to 48inches or more.

Not taking away from my hero though. He is still my hero and I bet he didn't have s vitamins back then. Maybe a few hot dogs and such-lol

Shep

Posted January 14, 2006 10:56 PM
Extension

Mankin has interesting observation about the finish as far as cues. When he was working on followthrough( which he BTW put little emphasis on except from point of view that it is an indicator point of something else that is maybe not happening.

When working on front leg actio he simply said make sure your back shoulder bceocmes your front at the end. The lead leg functions better and the hips and shoulders flow through. It is a function and mirror image of teh quality of the load /coil.
IWOs it is hard to land the finsih without a good load. Cause and effect

BBSCOUT

Great Ruth clip..thanks very much.

again...hitch or movement for purpose?

Watch him flip the bat tip away from his body with his hands / forearms and then load the back scap. What does it do to his hands. It works the bottom hand under the top and gets the bat out of plane to the swing. The bat goes out of the 45 slot and back to the 45 slot. By the time the bat gets pulled back into the same path of momentum of the shoulders; the hips are ahead of the shoulders creating torque. The bottom hand locks into the rotation. IT promotes the alternate loading of the rear then the lead scap and an inside out swing. IT slows the hands (or depending on how you want to look at it) allows more time for the front foot to get down. Torque could be predicted by the the relative position tip of the rear elbow and the open from foot. Put you lead elbow that far back and stride to an open foot and tell me there is no torque in that swing.


This is an example of the "action" in a swing that promotes upper lower body synchronization.

The modern day Pujols shortened that swing but kept the essentials. He

1starts out of the 45 slot with a vertical bat

2. starts bottom hand under top

3. internally rotates elbow in set up

4 coils somewhat in the setup

5. elevates the heel and no stides with rotation

6. reduces the need for forward movement

7. Gets batspeed and quickness with the same motor action

Similarly..he uses bat plane transtion to get inside the ball, load the scaps and slow the hands to get the hips ahead a few frames. Both access torque ..one abbreviates the others key points.

It would be safe to say Pujols strikes out less. THe reason might be the reduction of stride momentum to a slight efficient shift. OBTW...agree that is not a lunge.

Pujols probably drinks less beer before his at bats too.

quote:

He has to memorize that effort level that brings out the good swing......not the other one

I agree...very important point. More becomes less sometimes

teacherman-

you asked for "it" :
1- it

2- teacherman IS rightabout some things

but he is wrong on some points and wrong to not be aware of some key points he is therefore unable to take a position on

BBscout and buster-

The G Brett type swingis optimized to take best advantage of Ted Williams suggestion of getting more time by closing the stance and setting your contact points back. Brett,however, had to figure out how to make it workin a full swing.

As buster points out,in golf closing the stance is sometimes used to cure or avoid slicing or to draw the ball (minihook).It works by encouraging the inside out hand/clubpath smilar to "hide hands" cue inhitting. In hitting Bonds, for example has said you close your stance if you want to pull the ball.

If you close the stance, then you have to make some other adjustments.

To not close off the inside location/ to deal with the inside pitch,you have to get off the plate in the stance

Next, for good rotational swing quickness,you must make sure the weight shifts forward and the center of gravity does not fall back before contact.This principle is well known in golf and became an important part of the Lau teaching in hitting. When you close the stance, it discourages the necessary positive move and the swing is forced out too much, losing the inside start crucial to a good load.

Finally, this is a longer (swing radius) swing which creates a heavy load/resistance to rotation,so if coil and connection are not good, the torso can poop out of energy to keep the bat accelerating causing wrist roll compensation- deceleration-reacceleration.LauSr andJr may not completely understand these issues,but they certainly knew how to describe and teach this Brett type swing:

1-strongemphasis on positive move/weight shift

2-strong emphasis on stride then swing with lead arm knob pull and prevention of top hand dominace- this prevents the outsid-in rushed/interrupted swing-

3-lead arm extension and top hand release - this encourages the right ongoing connection/lead arm extension sequence to keep the swing accelerating to contact, avoiding the wrist roll compensation/deceleration/reacceleration or what Lau describes as the 2 piece swing.

If you want to emulate G Brett, follow the Lau advice.

The underlying principles of the swing are best explained in golf by Jones- BOBBY JONES ON GOLF, see for example Chap7 and Chap 9

Perhaps there is another forum for discussing how golf appplies for the few who may be interested.

Williams Clip

Watch and weep.. living proof..best BA means best hitter

http://s6.invisionfree.com/Hitting/index.php?showtopic=240&st=0#entry3810803

BB

I still say / is the proper bat position for LHH. Ted looks 90 degree almost laying back to 110 degree in this clip. He must be getting bored like some great hitters do and came up with this bat angle to lift ball a little more for distance-lol /LHH>/one more time for the giffer> LHH /is the most accepted bat angle now.

Shep
PS(Certain others on this thread must have notebooks upon notebooks of notes on hitting-Any of that material been published other than Charlie LAU?)

The slash "/" is just a keyboard identifier or extra I invented accidently for use on discussion boards which represents the bat of a LHH in proper position when hands are cocked during the uncoiling of the rotational process.

Should never be less than 70 degrees or bat will be too flat and could be considered wrapping. Think of right arm of LHH in setup. Consider the right arm as bottom line segment of an acute angle seen here /_ You will have to close the corner of /_ to complete acute angle because keyboard won't do so. The top line segment or / should never lean farther down or below 70 degrees in LHH setup or hitter will be considered wrapping bat. IMHO and many others, as well. There are however, exceptions.

It is interesting thinking about what you pointed out last night about stride not being considered lunge. The way you splained it makes perfect sense. The Babe did take a very long stride though but his picture is still by my bed every night and the last thing I look at before I close my eyes.

The one most important conclusion I have drawn many years ago is that every hitter has his own distinct style and approach as a hitter and each individual will have a different unique evaluation. Prognosis will be different for every hitter. Some better than others. LOL

Shep

While reading back through this very informative thread, noticed a post I found very interesting which compared this thread to a coach's encyclopedia on hitting. Would have to agree in a positive way from emails and response thereof-lol

The funniest thing I have seen in this thread, which there are many, was one of our beloved contributers begging for forgiveness while removing info ITS had requested to be removed.
Sounded like James Earl Jones in Field of Dreams

its-

done.

bad show.

just couldn't resist.

Will try to turn over a new leaf.

Hilarious-LOL

No pun, Just Fun
Shep

BB BTW

The 90 to 110 degrees I refered to in comment on Ted's homerun would be considered right or obtuse angle which is also incorrect in proper bat position. But like I mentioned a long time ago, whatever works consistently at highest level for each individual.

Shep
PS(hey Tom)

http://www.******.com/forums/showthread.php?p=59074#post59074

I'd be getting nervous if I were you buster.

Of course, you'll have to take out the stars (******) and put in s e t p r o for the link to work.

I don't go there... booted once for no reason..won't visit again.....

there are plenty of people more than willing to tell me how ****** hits.

Scott( ssarge) had a nice post confirming scap loading and what happens to the bat barrel plane. At least he got it right. That is what I was asking for almost a month.

I assumed Paul had it wrong ;maybe it was just you...that WOULD make more sense



Ssarge said
"
A hitter w/ proper upper body load WILL have a bat roughly vertical, and slanted back towards the pitcher. From the profile view, the bat is at an angle roughly parallel to the front upper arm (between shoulder and elbow). The bat is vertical - or close to it - roughly parallel to where a vertical line on the back of a football helmet would be.


I wrote"
First person that has acknowledged that in 700 post on HSBBWEB besides Tom. Were doing better already SCOTT. I feel like I just had a cold beer and a hot shower"


Good news bad news facts :

27 million people play baseball/ softball

99.99% don't know any of the internet instructors we talk about.

44, 000 people in my town and not three know or ever heard of one batting instructor.

Linear...nobody( 99.999%) really cares about the CONTENT about who said what on the internet....

Lastly,

Epstein/Mankin vs Ny-man discussions are the key to their continued success. What is good without bad, Auburn without Alabama, republicans with no democrats. Human nature is to take sides and debate.

Heck, I was beginning to get real bored without you.....

Where else can Ny-man get that much exposure free. I buy ads with money and he is on every page of Eteamz free every single day.

Do you know what an Eteamz add package cost?

THere is no such thing as bad publicity. He wrote the post with the shock factor about Steve E.. He is dumb like the proverbial FOX. Don't believe everything you read

If he just had a $29.00 CD we would make $1,000,000 in two years.....that I cannot understand.

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuster:

A hitter w/ proper upper body load WILL have a bat roughly vertical, and slanted back towards the pitcher. From the profile view, the bat is at an angle roughly parallel to the front upper arm (between shoulder and elbow). The bat is vertical - or close to it - roughly parallel to where a vertical line on the back of a football helmet would be.

I see no mention of the bottom hand working under the top hand. Do you? Maybe you should look deeper as to how that bat points toward the pitcher.

I see no mention of arm action.

I guarantee you looked, too.

a bat roughly vertical, and slanted back towards the pitcher. From the profile view, the bat is at an angle roughly parallel to the front upper arm (between shoulder and elbow). The bat is vertical - or close to it - roughly parallel to where a vertical line on the back of a football helmet would be.

Why did you not acknowledge that even when I said it over and over...I don't think you thought it was part of the loading process.

THat was my WHOLE POINT FOR A MONTH


I see no mention of the bottom hand working under the top hand. Do you?

It happens..it is a golf cue...increases club head speed and hand release. Golf pre-dates baseball by a few years.


I see no mention of arm action.[/quote]

Semantics..elbow positional change moves arm hence arm action..

How do you define arm action???? Please answer

Besides... why must my language match ....who's.

Key point..bat barrel moves to vertical when the scaps load ...now you know it and you will help kids better...My mission is complete

"I guarantee you looked, too

Wrong twice!!

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuster:

Why did you not acknowledge that even when I said it over and over...I don't think you thought it was part of the loading process.

THat was my WHOLE POINT FOR A MONTH...

Very simple. It was never the issue. The issue is how you describe the hands. It plain and simple doesn't work that way.

Bonds, my favorite, tips his bat. Pujols, another favorite, tips his bat. In fact, I posted Pujols and said I saw no arm action. Never said anything about the bat tip because it was never in question. How the bat tips is the question.

You accused me of never acknlowledging the bat tip before. I quoted myself saying of course it does/can....that it is an "advance" move, not done with the hand and it is an add on.

All that being said, many mlb hitters do not tip the bat. Therefore, it is not an absolute like you claim. It is an add on after they learn to rotate from their center. It has nothing to do with helping them load/unload their center.

A good scap load, like Pujols for example, can do the bat tip thing. It is not done with the bottom hand working under the top hand.

Tipping was never the issue.

Your analysis of how it happens is deeply flawed.

Wow,

That is a two-way conversation. Any comment on my obtuse angle

J should charge ya'll rent. Do you have unlimited nights and weekends?

Sheppy

quote:

It has nothing to do with helping them load/unload their center.

Baloney... the load has everything with the above.

everybody doesn't start in stages

Shep...obtuse....splain..

Bat / forearm 90 degree & lead elbow 90degree in my model

The film with Ted W. had him laying the bat down backwards away from 90 degree rather than forward.

I contend this is simply an adjustment made by Ted to lift ball more for HR distance opposed to those numerous liners and ground balls he had been hitting in some earlier film I've had the privilage of viewing.

Forget obtuse, I just came up with that from teaching school as analogy for better understanding.

Shep

In fact, this adjustment wasn't made till after the war. Think he might off taken on some schrapnel or something? LOL

Seriously, instructors probably advised him to start laying bat back a little like an instructor asked me to do when I had drilled the wall about 10 times in one week-sad but true.

Missed that many more HRs that year that could have been very interesting in larger scheme. Guess thats why so interested. Wouldn't want anybody else to "not" obtain maximum results from power and distance.

Shep

Buster,

Waiting for you to post your swing over at the hitting site.

You're awfully critical of N Y M A N S....let's see yours.

Good night now ladies and gentlemen.

May God Bless you all.

Shep's Moment of the Day

quote:

Good night now ladies and gentlemen.

May God Bless you all. clever-man2.gif

Shep's Moment of the Day

And the HSBBWeb's Moment of the Day, Shepp saying goodnight.

quote:

You're awfully critical of N Y M A N S....

Not so .......your confusing me with one of several hundreds others that did however. NO point leaving a lob shot chest high at the net Linear without ducking.

I might send you a clip of a good player( 18) that is working to improve. Maybe you can help out>

Epstein told me when your talking swing mechanics never swing a bat or all they see is your swing and never hear the message. **** either learned that the hard way or maybe the truth is it doesn't matter for the people that read his stuff.

**** might do it differently looking back. In his defense; when you get 50 your swing might be pretty good but I guarantee with your loss of flexability you will look like your picture on your drivers license. Remember the older Arnold Palmer...still shooting par but it looked different

Swingbuster

I, personally, have a problem with the comparison of a golf swing to a baseball swing

I find the two similar in some fashion but totally different in many others

Lets see if I can explain myself without physics/scvientific terms and claymation models

01-- a golf swing does not involve the body motion that a baseball swing does

02-- in golf you are swinging at a stationary ball at your feet while in baseball you are swinging at a moving ball somewhere around waist high--thus for me the plane of the swing is totally distinct to each swing.

03-- the rhythm of the baseball swing is totally different than in golf--in baseball you need to react to the pitch with the body taking it cue from the brain/eye mechanism-- not so in golf

Just a few thoughts from an old baseball guy here and to cite a statement from Joe Torre who is a golf fanantic " How come I can't break 100 in golf and I could hit .300 in baseball?"-- Two totally differenty actions and I include Brain/eye connection in the term body

Thanks 3000...I'm back-LOL

Eh, why don't you head back north to your igloo.

The Canadian forum, I think it is-LOL

Have a great day,

Shep

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuster:

quote:

You're awfully critical of N Y M A N S....

Not so .......your confusing me with one of several hundreds others that did however.

"ted ...your killin me man...LOL LOL LOL"

Your words in response to Ted who criticized *****. In the context of the discussion it was very clear that you agreed with him and enjoyed his point.

Dishonest again buster?

quote:

Epstein told me when your talking swing mechanics never swing a bat or all they see is your swing and never hear the message.

A better explanation comes from Epsteins tag line only slightly different.

"Maybe his swing doesn't match what he teaches"

And if the can duplicate what they see, why not show em?

quote:

Dishonest again buster?

I was laughing at a discriptive set of terms written by someone else because it was funny... no crime in that . Show me the post where I critcized his swing or lose the point.


tick, tick tick....

Game, set, match again.....

Your just a spoon stirring **** all the time.

Who made you you the internet judge, jury, psychic, lawyer , and police, knowing everyone's intent, cryptic thoughts anyway....

Show me where I wrote that Paul had a bad swing......waiting..be accurate please .

Maybe you should slap Ted's wrist

no intellectual integrity at all!!!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuster:

quote:

Dishonest again buster?

I was laughing at a discriptive set of terms written by someone else because it was funny... no crime in that . Show me the post where I critcized his swing or lose the point.

I'll just post the link and let the readers decide the context of the statement.

http://s6.invisionfree.com/Hitting/index.php?showtopic=238&st=15&#last

Well if you think it was bad manners why do you keep promoting and republishing the idea.. Your a big help to the man.

Go to the battle field and keep shooting the wounded.

You trying to help him or hurt him? Or maybe your one of the plants to him keep his name out there. Business is business but I don't have any of those.

Why did Paul's lead story that he wrote and published on the internet ( that Shawn introduced to us) have such controvery?

Your saying it was not to draw attention to himself? If you believe that your not weaned yet. Heck of a way to keep a low profile...just staying at home minding his own business huh?

What do you get for each DVD sold Linear being a plant and promote guy? I hope he makes millions if that is his goal. Makes NO difference to me. What is your motivation or manipulation...which is it?

MAybe he needs to send Tom and I a check too

I'm starting to see too many *****'s in here. Therefor I nominate this thread to be inducted into the Golden Threads forum!

quote:

Eh, why don't you head back north to your igloo.

The Canadian forum, I think it is-LOL

I'm waiting for someone to reply!!!!

Mr 3000

welcome to the fray ...jump in the waters fine..


I'm Ny-man neutral...use some of his stuff; use others stuff too

Just trying to get an original thought from Linear.....its been almost 30 days


He has never started a sentence about hitting mechanics with "this is what I think happens"

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuster:
Well if you think it was bad manners why do you keep promoting and republishing the idea.. Your a big help to the man.

Go to the battle field and keep shooting the wounded.

You trying to help him or hurt him? Or maybe your one of the plants to him keep his name out there. Business is business but I don't have any of those.

Why did Paul's lead story that he wrote and published on the internet ( that Shawn introduced to us) have such controvery?

Your saying it was not to draw attention to himself? If you believe that your not weaned yet. Heck of a way to keep a low profile...just staying at home minding his own business huh?

What do you get for each DVD sold Linear being a plant and promote guy? I hope he makes millions if that is his goal. Makes NO difference to me. What is your motivation or manipulation...which is it?

MAybe he needs to send Tom and I a check too

Bob & Weave. Serpentine. Change the subject.

Anything to save face when your theory can't deal with the questions.

I'm doing my best to stay on "hitting". You are doing your best to go to the traits of the messenger.

You criticized his swing by your statement. Nothing wrong with that. He is over 50. I'm just asking for your swing.....to be fair. Maybe we should all get a look at it. Then we can talk about who better demonstrates the high level swing.

If that was the benchmark then the bar was set way too low.

But of course mine would be posted against a 25 year old MLB player in about 5 minutes frame by frame.

Lucky that didn't happen to him

He has good thoughts he just did not demo them as I recall. Since you have access to so many comparatives why not post it again for us

Duck, squirm....

I,ve been lurking since 1999.... reading and learning about the swing...must say I have enjoyed reading the thoughts of Teacherman/Linear....Swingbuster etc. I had never heard of rotational hittng etc. Have since spent many hours studying Mankin/Epstein/Nyma* etc. All thanks to you guys... My 08 and 2012 son's have been the beneficiaries and my 2001 son is ticked that we did not have the info his brothers now have, via the internet and HSBBW. I've never felt need to post until now.... Will you guys please get back to the disecting the swing instead of each other......Thanks

It's not only free but it needs to fit your time schedule?

Good point.....

Troy99,

"Will you guys please get back to dissecting the swing instead of each other......"

Very good point!

Troy,

Agree with MN-Mom. These fellas occasionally lose sight of the intent of this website. They use it for their own personal battles - which is extremely selfish.

They really do need to contribute information and insight - and cut back on the gladiator stuff.

When it gets real bad - we just erase their posts - and move on. Although we would prefer not to.

Enjoy the site - It is the BEST!

its....


I have learned a lot from this thread. It was a informative rush getting me primed for practice that started today.

I must share again that we start on line drive drill off a tee to the back of a batting cage. The kids tell me they "get it better than ever " with this approach.

For coaches with kids that aren't up to speed yet try this drill. It is simple and amazingly captivating for even seniors. I talked to other coaches that do it.

When you learn how to make them accomplish this goal they will have good swings.

Sorry for the departure from good posting form. I know some people have gotten food for thought though.

This site would be boring without Linear and the traffic would drop by half

Thats because half of it is his....couldn't resist

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuster:

This site would be boring without Linear and the traffic would drop by half

Throw your hitting opinions and suggestions out there - and leave the Nielsen ratings to others.

can someone give me a summmary as to what has happend in this post?

i just decied to look at it today and i don't think i can read all 980+ posts on here.

thx in advanced

quote:

can someone give me a summmary as to what has happend in this post?

I described how to load where the bat went vertical and plane transition and hand torque sent the bat in a circular pattern to make kids better hitters and finally a guy at eteamz agreed.

Linear appologized and said we were all right but him and he gets it now and he would never give a short answer again as he has learned his manners. MN- Mom and Its complimented us on our gentlemanly behavior. And then practice began.

Was that a dream...........

Good luck on your season

Thanks swingbuster

And bbscout i will try to but that is going to take me a very long time and this is my "finals" week so i will be mentally drained by the time this week is over.


Hope everybody has a great year this year.

Wanted to sneak this "Hitting" blurb into this record setting hitting thread.

Am reading a great book and the author has said his guru was Casey Stengel. This commentary is from Casey:

Let me show you what a smart man I was. We're playing the Cardinals and they got this kid, just up from the minors at the end of the year. I know all about his record and how he's supposed to be a great left-handed hitter and all. But he's a kid. And I know how it is with kids, they can all hit fastballs, but they can't hit the soft stuff, because they've just come from the minors and who's down there that's a good experienced pitcher and knows how to mix it up, right? So he's been looking at fastballs and wild men and now I tell my pitcher, don't worry about it, just give him those little soft curves and he'll break his back swinging at it---and he hit two singles and two doubles off my pitcher, and that's when I figured out this Mr. Musial was a pretty good hitter whether he was young and had seen pitching or not!

Chill

Stan Musial was a great young hitter that could hit anything you threw but bet Mr. Stengal realized this before Musial-lol

Best regards to Chill and family.

Shep

Hey Shepster,
You have a new PM.
Thanks

Donny

If you know so much why are you always looking for confirmation.

Batspeed, here, shawns site......always looking for someone to say "I agree". Always looking for confirmation. Even if the "confirmer" is clueless.

The answer you are looking for as to why your hitters don't feel like they work when they rotate is very simple. And, it's the reason yours will fall out of the food chain earlier than they should.

Linear

(read fast>You are asking for it aren't ya?JK

Who you mean when you say clueless-JK LOL

Did you happen to notice two threads I pulled from distant past on hitting?

I think your in there somewhere or another.

Shep

Linear...where have you been? called to a Ny-man inner circle meeting. Getting detailed on the new product.

Set-Pro SPRT5A REACTION TRAINER, VIPER-RT VISION-REACTION TRAINER, VO-RFD-1HP-6 BALLISTIC SWING TRAINING KIT $847.00

You can see free clips with him using it in a 5 part series on the site...I did look and watch it.

I might get you one for Valantines Day...can I borrow $847.00

Guess Jack wouldn't post all of your replies...wonder why...you blocked there too. Good thing MN-MOM is patient you might have to buy stamps to write people

singbuster you have a pm.

Swingbuster

How are you tonight, sir? Enjoyed surfing your site earlier and learned alot to say the least and like your humble no-nonsense style. You are good for baseball says the Shep and I respect you immensely and I am serious about learning more.

Found out last night how well RS from California was doing and think that is great also. Gotta love it!

Read Your Earlier Posts!
Keep it coming!
The board needs good hitting instruction from one of the "good guys".

Sincerely,

Shep

thanks shep...

Things are going well and life begins at 50 right?

You got it Swing!!!

Our best years are ahead of us. 50 is just a number-LOL

Just like a 1000 posts-LOL

You have the right idea "help kids". Learned that from you sir.

Shep Cares too!

quote:

The most overlooked area in hitting is correct timing - or to say it another way "timing the pitcher". Most batters are late in their swing. I do not care how good your swing mechanics are - if you are late getting your front foot down - you will have a hard time hitting the ball. Again timing is a very critical part of hitting that is overlooked.

Passion for the game??? I believe it!!!! This was a great post and has been a frequent point of discussion of late.

Appreciate Useful info.,
Thanks Passion!
Shep

Thanks Sand BB and Linear

Got plenty more where this one came from so all of ya'll need to get ready for a steady stream of good ole analysis.

Shep

how far he hit that because that is a perfect swing

Swing

How long ago was this videotaped?

Shep Cares

Thanks to everyone who triggered this loaded discussion. i have 17 8 1/2 x 11 pages of purest wheat seperated from the [lets see, 50 times an average of 8 pages per equals 400 pages] chaff over which i will ruminate nightly. After serious and considered thought i will integrate the new lessons learned [hopefully few but only time will tell] gleaned from those pages into my own long studied, private but constantly evolving hitting philosophy. Then and only then will i stride up to my 17 year old high school junior what it is that i have been incorrectly teaching him since he was 3. Thanks again to all and may egos reign for out of chaos comes creativity.

This is my fav though.

Thank you BB, you da man.

Next...1

We got to get your clip in here ASAP.

Keep working on it, would like to give feedback and it "won't cost you a penny", really/ever.

Shep Cares

1.5 years ago

The kids a 10th grader now...not my son..hit one on twenty yard line of football field that is situated behind the baseball field last week.

That HBH screwed him up so bad that it kept it from going over the football field too.

we need to post the clip with Linear swinging and we couldn't make them fast enough

swingbuster,

Was that last sentence really needed? I haven't seen you post your swing (or your son's) so the only reasons I can come up with for that last comment are...

1) You don't like Linear or
2) You're trying to shift the focus from a poor swing using a device you're trying to sell.

Either way I don't believe your last sentence adds anything to this discussion and in my opinion was unnecessary.

Jason

quote:

Originally posted by Shepster:


This is my fav though.

Thank you BB, you da man.

I love this swing from the babe. i laugh everytime i see it. technically, does just about everything wrong.

How good is that baseball in Toronto?

the baseball is great in toronto. i bit wet and chilly today though.

Toronto? Not bad.

I have seen a clip of Ruth where he actually walks into his swing (like some slo-pitch softball hitters). He must have had several different swings. The clip above is not his normal swing!

In fact, if you search hard for Babe Ruth video, you will find a much different and much better swing.

Great arm action sequence and weight shift (walk-up/through).

Note the effect this has on back foot action.

Opposite of bug squish,extreme version of "heel lead toe" type action to the point of pivoting on the HEEL, not the ball of the back foot.

Babe Ruth
Scroll down and watch Babe Ruth video

quote:

Barry Bonds

Is this guys bat stationary?

BBScout

No way, good example. In the video clip you have about 12 pages back on this thread of Barry Bonds his bat has nice methodical rhythm and movement. Pt well taken.

Ted Williams home run

Great clip of great hitter.

Shep

BTW

Thanks again BB.

RS (This is great!!!!)

quote:

Originally posted by Chill:
Toronto? Not bad.

LOL Great article but we will wait and see.

http://dmcmillan.topcities.com/Bonds01.mpeg

This is good clip for learning purposes that BB has posted here before.

Noitce how Barry B, slightly pulls hands in and keeps hands inside of pitch location of baseball.

A+

quote:

Originally posted by Shepster:


Thanks Sand BB and Linear

Got plenty more where this one came from so all of ya'll need to get ready for a steady stream of good ole analysis.

Shep

Can the hitting guru's of the HSBBWEB take a look at my son's swing clip and provide your feedback. There are some great hitting minds on these boards and would welcome your opinions. The clip is from his school spring trip last March prior to Soph season. Thanking you in advance.

Link: http://members.aol.com/trip11whl/swing

I really like your swing. I don't know how to slow it down (frame by frame) but it looks good.

Others will chime in, but the only thing I see that could be improved is you appear to get a little too locked up on your front side. JMO

Downward swing plane that doesn't match shoulder turn plane. Upper body only. Arm only swing.

Decent start to the swing. Poor finish.

This photo of 16 yr old LHH 
prospect from California 
and video clip of #25-(Trip?) 
looks very similiar in early 
stages of the swing.  Believe 
Shep when he says, that is a 
compliment! PG Jerry, you can 
view frame by frame of NY 
prospect #25 by using arrows 
on right side bottom of video 
clip. Reverse/FF buttons

Notice how Stock loads against
lower body large muscle groups
and maintains balance and
center before turning 
shoulders and bringing bat
forward. Front foot is closed
as should be and power is
coming from lower base as
in hitting against a strong
front side in carousel 
fashion.

The rotational power swing
as demonstrated by LHH in 
California can be attained
through hard-work and
dedication. Stock began
studying this type of swing
back when he was around 11-
12 yrs of age and is the 
best recent example I can 
think of as far as success
attained from proper use of
the mechanics involved in the
rotational swing and using the
lower body muscles,  which by
the way are strongest in body,
to generate batspeed and power.
Upperbody/shoulders/hands 
should be like a whip when 
coming forward if hitting
against strong front side.
The lowerbody is the primary 
foundation of the strong
front side and vital in the success of a hitter.

Kinda looks like this LHH in photo above in the early frames/stages of swing but does need to work on finish>long through the ball. Looks more like a chop and stop swing rather than a swing with good follow through and extension of clip of NY kid but I kinda like the swing mechanics too and would say this chop and stop is correctable.

The recoil of bat at end of swing in follow through is strong indicator of upperbody swing using arms as powersource as indicated by Linear.IMHO

Still a nice lick though! Was it a HR??

Shep

I'd take him. That's one good looking soph.
Good looking field too!
Good luck this spring 25.

This may help you.

Linear:
When I saw his bat head I figured you'd comment about that; but you said you liked his start more than his finish. What about the start did you like?

Shep - appreciate the feedback however don't see any pic or video of your LHH in your post just the text portion.

Linear - quite honestly not sure what i'm looking at or should be looking for in that diagram that you posted..

Trojan - Thanks for your comments and that good looking field was Disney.

Swing,

Before you leave us tonight, what is your take?

Thought Shep would invite you sir to give feedback if you want...

Your Hillbilly Buddy,
Shep

Shep,

The proper plane also depicts an arc where you do take the knob down initially. The plane also shows that you can stay in that plane and drop your shoulder completely.

Post a Mike Schmidt clip....he said finsh low and taught hit down. Lets see if he did.

Been in Chatroom, just got back to reg message board.

Bear is an interesting guy for sure.

Swing, Do you have clip of Mike S/Phillies?

Don't have one yet....Will look for one though.

Shep

quote:

Swing, Do you have clip of Mike S/Phillies

I think Ssarge is looking for one on another site. It will show up soon

10-4 bro

Shep

Here is the text again sir as requested in Email

quote:

Posted February 19, 2006 01:55 PM

This photo of 16 yr old LHH
prospect from California
and video clip of #25-(Trip?)
looks very similiar in early
stages of the swing. Believe
Shep when he says, that is a
compliment! PG Jerry, you can
view frame by frame of NY
prospect #25 by using arrows
on right side bottom of video
clip. Reverse/FF buttons

Notice how Stock loads against
lower body large muscle groups
and maintains balance and
center before turning
shoulders and bringing bat
forward. Front foot is closed
as should be and power is
coming from lower base as
in hitting against a strong
front side in carousel
fashion.

The rotational power swing
as demonstrated by LHH in
California can be attained
through hard-work and
dedication. Stock began
studying this type of swing
back when he was around 11-
12 yrs of age and is the
best recent example I can
think of as far as success
attained from proper use of
the mechanics involved in the
rotational swing and using the
lower body muscles, which by
the way are strongest in body,
to generate batspeed and power.
Upperbody/shoulders/hands
should be like a whip when
coming forward if hitting
against strong front side.
The lowerbody is the primary
foundation of the strong
front side

Shep, can you re-post pics of that LHH prospect that you are using as a reference as it isn't showing up in the post (at least not mine). Thank you.

MT07LHP,
Nice swing. You lower half does a good job of "flowing" through your swing and never stopping your rhythm. Upper body stay inside the baseball pretty well. You may have pulled the front shoulder out just a hair premature, but it was minor if you did. Where was the pitch? It looked as if inside half? I would just recommend trusting your hands a bit more allowing your swing to finish more towards R-CF instead of RF. That will give you a cleaner finish and more leverage due to the arms extending through the ball.
PG,
I see what you are saying on the front leg. It appeared that way to me in regular speed, but when slowed down, it locks at a pretty good time in the swing. He did appear in game speed to lock it a bit early though. Good observation.
Shep,
I believe that the recoil you saw was a result of him trying to get out of the box too quickly and not finishing his swing (aka Ichiro). The shoulders do start to get a little loud towards the end of his swing, but when slowing the video down, he stays through the ball pretty well and it doesn't appear he pulls off so much as to initiate a recoil. If you will go to the end of the clip and then step back 8 frames, you will see that he gets through the ball well. Then on the next frame, either he starts to get out of the box before finishing or he is not real flexible in his back and his swing finishes pre-maturely due to that. You are right though...in most players, using the upper body to generate the bat speed will incur a recoil.
Great stuff here guys!

Are you all enablers?

This kid has a major swing plane flaw.

The graphic demonstrates it.

It has to be fixed or he won't play through his genetic potential.

I could be wrong but I don't believe the author is looking for "atta boys".

Visually stare at the Bonds clip on page 52 until you can "see" the imaginery disk created by his swing plane.

Visually stare at the youngster until you can "see" the imaginery disk created by his swing plane.

Compare the two.

Both swing planes are in the skeletal graphic. One is Bonds'. One is the kids'. One is good. One is bad.

CoachA, Thanks for your comments/suggestions.

Linear, Looking for an overall assessment as well as constructive criticism and suggestions so we can make the necessary adjustments. Thanks.

Check out the allignment of their arms and how they maintain the allignment throughout the swing.

It's called "maintaining the box".

Linear loves a good fight.
Please speak in specifics instead of using generalizations to pick on a kid's swing. The lead arm never bars out thus the box is maintained through contact. The swing planes are nearly identical. The rear elbow/hand lead into the hip together correctly and pass through bat lag very efficiently without losing the barrel into the zone or down-out of the zone. The hands snap at the appropriate time allowing the barrel to catch the ball with the hands just in front of the stomach. His backside finishes through the ball as he goes through contact and I am going to guess, unless his dad is Barry Bonds, he should be able to maximize his "genetic potential" quite well with that as a foundation and continued refinement as he grows.

*DING* Round 1 *FIGHT*

Would also like to add that S-E-T-P-R-O is the only way to go and would highly recommend this fine looking LHH to extend his horizons and do a little research in the area of N-Y-M-A-N

What a tremendous difference it has made in the prospect I posted on page 52 and many many others.

He can mean the difference of college scholarship vs no college scholarship,
being drafted by MLB vs not being drafted by MLB. This is how much I believe in it and getting ready to start several more prospects on S-E-T-P-R-O program ASAP.

Shep looks for results, talk is cheap. Have found outstanding results in N-Y-M-A-N teachings over and over.

Good Day Shep

quote:

start several more prospects on S-E-T-P-R-O program ASAP.

Shep...describe briefly the PROGRAM that you see

quote:

Originally posted by Coach A:
The swing planes are nearly identical...

There can be no fight.

Not until you get an education.

If you can look at the two swings and say the swing planes are identical then you can't see enough yet.

The skeletal graphic shows two swing planes. Bonds has one of them. The kid has the other.

And the kids failure to maintain the box is a large part of the problem.

Study.

And, while studying, look at the imaginery disk....not the bat.

Is "Genetic potential " the key word for this month/year ?

quote:

Originally posted by Coach A:
Please speak in specifics instead of using generalizations to pick on a kid's swing.

Pick on a kid's swing?

I believe the poster (dad) posted the swing and asked what we thought.

Am I supposed to lie?

Am I supposed to enable the kid to have good success at low levels and watch him hit the wall as he goes up the food chain?

No matter what is posted are we supposed to say...."that's really good"?

And as for specifics.....swing plane is specific. Maintaining the box is specific.....even if you don't know what they mean.

Your real complaint is that one of us knows a little bit and the other doesn't. And, you're not on the side you want to be on.

Interesting! This kid is Old news as a sophomore in high school based upon one swing. My point, and I'm sure Linear ... will all agree. I'd like to see more. BTW, some great clips this weekend on Barry Bonds after he made his announcements. If one wants to talk about spine angle and swing plane he just might be perfect if perfect can exist. JMHO!

quote:

Shep...describe briefly the PROGRAM that you see

Would take a long time and Shep's on Laptop @ school getting ready to eat "cafeteria food"LOL

Swing, Will give you a brief answer though.

Methods used by P-a-u-l N-y-m-an help the player internalize the muscle memory of baeball related movement. Simple as that but most times training devices are needed to break "old habits" LOL

I like you Swing and like what you have to offer and I have kep't quiet up to this point this morning before I departed for school but feel I'm at the crossroads and must choose.

Besides this prospect lives closer to Conn.

Back to country fried steak and 28 2nd grade students.

Going to HS BB game after school-Top Prospect

Talk Later Bro,
Shep

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
Interesting! This kid is Old news as a sophomore in high school based upon one swing.

Even more interesting is you can't see the difference in swing planes.

You.......the hsbaseball coach........

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
Interesting! This kid is Old news as a sophomore in high school based upon one swing.

Even more interesting is you can't see the difference in swing planes.

You.......the hsbaseball coach........

Wouldn't it be even more interesting to see more than one swing? Do you then suggest that one swing defines a player? Is it incomprehensible to you that a hitter could take a swing of lesser quality on a given pitch? Are you suggesting that even the greats don't get fooled once in a while and have a poor swing?

I posted my thoughts on this swing and then deleted that portion of the post because I'm not quick to judge. Aren't you the same poster that remarked, in the past, that high school coaches change hitters to quickly based upon a couple of swings? Looking for a little conflict today? Guess that floats your boat! Genetic Potential? Good I don't have a son. You'd be the first to tell them to take up golf. LOL!

MT07LHP posted one clip and asked for advice.

He got it. He can determine what to do with it.

Not everyone needs your help.

Could be a one swing mistake and most all his others are good. I suspect not. On what looks like a very good pitch to hit, he has an improper swing plane. If you can't maintain your swing plane on that pitch you'll be even worse on other pitches.

MT07LHP can make that decision.

As for you.............it's still amazing you can't see the difference in the swing planes. For that matter, I doubt if you know what the differences mean even if you could figure out how and why they are different.

You know, YOU, the "I know I'm the best but please tell me again how good I am" guy......that in reality falls far short of knowing what constitutes a high level swing.

What brings you back to the skills section?

You (and a few others) have been missing for a couple of weeks now and the level of knowledge has advanced.

How do you deduce that I can or can't see any flaw. I haven't posted on it. As per the absence, haven't been absent at all. Just didn't feel the need to post. Besides, leave this up to you. You are constantly and consistently the kettle. Did want to see more clips and don't think one swing is enough. As always, you're good for a chuckle or two. Per your "not everyone needs my help," exactly why I've stayed out and let you be the EXPERT on everything under the sun. Basketball, Football, Baseball, do you fix Baked Alaska as well? Probablly a gourmet cook! My ego, as large as it is, pales in comparison to yours. BTW, how do you know I don't belong to another website? Perhaps I do and correspond with others under a different name. Perhaps I took a lesson from you, the Sybil of the Internet. Then again, maybe I don't. At least I've looked at the mirror and all of my face is the same color since I haven't been putting it other places.

Point out the flaw then.

You think the author wants honesty or not?

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:
Point out the flaw then.

You think the author wants honesty or not?

In who's EXPERT opinion?

You, the almighty Triad coach, backing down????

Afraid to show what you know?

Or don't know?

Talk is cheap. You've told us your record.....many times.

How about some instruction?

Or is someone else working with your kids.........with you taking the credit.

Kind of like the financial matter.

Define who's the expert! It's easy to be an arm chair quarterback and tell everyone that such and such is the flaw. However, who's to say you, the almighty, Linearrshardozzirteachermanthecoach...'s opinion on what is right or wrong is any more correct off of one video feed than any John Doe walking the street?

I think the guy wants opinions on his kid's swing and not be entertained by the back and forth going on. There are no recognized "experts' here. Just give your opinions and let the results speak for themselves. I learn here just from reading the responses. Keyboard muscles don't impress anyone.

Backed down.

Lame

Linear Wrote:

“Or is someone else working with your kids.........with you taking the credit.”

Well, heck yes. I have an incredible coaching staff. In fact, 2 out of the 3 paid coaches PLAYED FOR ME. Of those two, one went on to be an All-American in college and the other pitched in college. Both coached in college. Head Coaches get a lot of credit and assistant coaches do a lot of work. It was the same when I was an assistant coach.

Richard asked for my evaluation. The topic was locked this morning when I got to school. I had to coach basketball and then scout last night and so, I didn’t post my requested analysis. First let me say again, that I don’t think you can rate a player’s abilities on one swing. I feel the most comfortable suggesting changes in a hitter’s technique after I’ve thrown BP to them.

The upper body and the hands are not acting as one unit. What we call “Hands and body are better together.” This young man extends his hands toward the ump and then begins the swing. In turn, this lengthens or straightens the right arm. In my opinion, this could make his swing “longer.” I believe that this alters his swing plane. What would I then recommend to change it? I’d suggest that this young man change his spine angle and do what we call “getting the eyes over the plate.” I’d also recommend that this young man trigger by keeping his hands and upper body as one unit and slightly rotating his shoulders inward loading. In doing all of this then, the tell tale sign of the adjustment is that this young man’s swing plane should improve and his balance would be significantly better at finish. Note, in the video, he really rolls over that front foot and is not balanced.

Well, this is my assessment. I’m no expert and have never claimed to be. In fact, I despise most (not all) “experts.” These “experts” spend a lot of time looking at a computer skeleton and simulating swing planes. They are fantastic at hitting enter on the keyboard. Players are not perfect as those simulations. They are human and have human traits. To say a player won’t reach their “genetic potential” based on one video feed is absurd. That is unless that computer graphic can account for that player’s genetic makeup. Oops, don’t believe it can. JMHO!