HS new pitch count rule....working??

Twoboys posted:

Couldn't agree more.  Our idiot coach has already had two guys go over 100 -- because "the rules allow it."  What happened to the 90 pitch count guidance?  Out so that you can throw 110 pitches instead (after 4 nights rest).

Ohio's "rule" is 125 max.....I knew when I heard a couple coaches on the committee that it wouldn't be 105-110 like other states.  Almost to the point of "why bother"...but I'm sure there will be plenty of kids who have to stop at 125 before the season is over across the state

Buckeye 2015 and Twoboys,

Try to picture what could be happening if there were no limitations like when I played HS ball, or even if last year’s limitations were still in place. Here’s Ohio’s: 10-inning limit per pitcher over the course of three days. Here’s Va’s: A pitcher shall not pitch in more than ten (10) innings in any two consecutive calendar days.

So how would things be any better under no rules or those rules? I’m not quite understanding what your problem with pitch counts limitations is. Sounds to me as though you not only like the new rule, you wish it were much more strict. Don’t blame the pitch count limitation for what you perceive to be a coach’s lack of common sense.

JV in GA seems to be following it.  They have selected some closers and some starters and even with 3-4 games a week no one seems to go in twice.

Pitching limits have met with significant resistance that is breaking down.  My take is that proponents have a "Take what you can get"  approach.  The thought being that once established it will never be repealed and that over time you will become more restrictive if the rules are too broad or allow too much utilization.  Examples like that above will drive that discussion.

I would guess in 3 to 5 years time the notion of pitch counts will be as 2nd nature to the game as batting helmets are.  When I told my kids about Ray Chapman and that it took 40 years for Batting Helmets to become the norm - they thought I was making it up.  Pitch counts will be the same thing.  In 20 years no one will remember the times of HS pitchers going 175-200 pitches in an outing and won't believe you when you tell them it used to happen.

Stats4Gnats posted:

Buckeye 2015 and Twoboys,

 

Try to picture what could be happening if there were no limitations like when I played HS ball, or even if last year’s limitations were still in place. Here’s Ohio’s: 10-inning limit per pitcher over the course of three days. Here’s Va’s: A pitcher shall not pitch in more than ten (10) innings in any two consecutive calendar days.

 

So how would things be any better under no rules or those rules? I’m not quite understanding what your problem with pitch counts limitations is. Sounds to me as though you not only like the new rule, you wish it were much more strict. Don’t blame the pitch count limitation for what you perceive to be a coach’s lack of common sense.

 

 

You're right....I guess my point was more of a common sense complaint...not the pitch count complaint......though you're right, I think Ohio's 125 max is too much.  105-110 like every other state would have worked.   My point was that when all this talk of the pitch count rule started taking place, I thought maybe it would get coaches thinking about it more and maybe get them to start trying to have more pitchers available to keep counts down and keep pitchers available.  I guess not lol

Buckeye 2015 posted:

You're right....I guess my point was more of a common sense complaint...not the pitch count complaint......though you're right, I think Ohio's 125 max is too much.  105-110 like every other state would have worked.   My point was that when all this talk of the pitch count rule started taking place, I thought maybe it would get coaches thinking about it more and maybe get them to start trying to have more pitchers available to keep counts down and keep pitchers available.  I guess not lol

Don’t give up on ‘em just yet. Remember, NFHS dumped this new requirement on everyone just last summer, and that’s not a whole lot of lead time to get everything in place.

When I first heard about the mandate, I wondered why NFHS just didn’t impose the Pitch Smart guidelines and save everyone a whole lot of time and $$$$$. But after I’d thought about it a while I realized that for HSB where you might have an 11, 13, 15, 17, and 19YO on the same team, you’d be looking for a whole lot of push back from coaches because keeping track of everything would be a nightmare for many.

So having pitch counts and rest based on age would need to be replaced by some other measure and NFHS decided to let the states determine that. As far as I know, all the states have gone to basing it on the team the player is on, i.e. V or JV. But even at that, I can see how there’s a lot of resistance. I’m guessing more than one parent or player has been confused when pitchers are bouncing between the V and JV teams. All in all I’m just holdin’ on and guessing that there will be “adjustments” to the rule in the near future.

It would all be so much easier if there were one common database that would determine a pitcher’s eligibility. That way age could easily be used, and almost all problems could be stopped before they even happened. Oh well, all anyone can do is be glad we’ve at least gotten better than IPs as the basis for limiting pitchers.

Stats.....again, not in Ohio....same rules for everyone.....freshman, JV and Varsity, which to me is maybe the most ridiculous part of what they put together.  125 pitch max in a freshman or JV game makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

It would all be so much easier if there were one common database that would determine a pitcher’s eligibility.

This smacks of a great opportunity for someone.  A relatively simple data base to build with only a few inputs Name, DOB, Date Pitched, IP, # of pitches.  Signoff by H. Coach of both teams.  Probably get paid on either a license or subscription basis.  So charge each league $500 for a season which is $50 to $100 per school depending on teams in the league.  In a state like VA where there are about 50 leagues that would push $25k for the season.  

Heck - HSBBW should try to set it up and sell (give) it to NHFS to use as the standard.

Every team we play this year has been keeping a log of pitch counts on MP.  Teams have used 5-10 pitchers so far, We've used 4 pitchers, with 2 more available to spare.  We let them throw 30-50 pitches so that they'll be ok to go after 1 days rest.  This is just to get them used to the gruel.  Our conference games start next week.  We plan to send our starters out to throw a max of 90-100 and use 1 reliever each game with a max of 50 pitches.  

Buckeye 2015 posted:

I guess according to the "rule" I don't have any complaint BUT.....son wasn't throwing this week so I went to check out his HS the last couple days.  Keep in mind, his school has no winter throwing program...and the weather since practice started hasn't been great....also, NO scrimmage (don't know....never understood it)!!   Opener on Monday....starting SS comes in and throws the 6th....no real problems....13 pitches.   Last night, complete game 105.   I stayed til the 4th and he was already showing signs of tiring...leaving alot of fastball up...struggling with control.  It was 43 and crazy windy so I left.  I was shocked to see the Gamechanger stats later that showed he finished the game....with 105 pitches.   This kid has college potential (not D1, but maybe D2).  I know his dad pretty well (not a baseball guy).....I'm guessing he just doesn't know any better.  Probably going to casually mention it next time I see him.   I thought maybe all this talk of pitch counts would get coaches thinking a little....yes, the 105 was within the rules....but with our school's lack of workouts/throwing/etc I think it's at least 20-25 too many this early.  Oh and he'll be back at SS tonight, another game Friday then likely back on the mound for one of the DH games on Saturday.

I agree with the pitch count rules being implemented.  They will get more restrictive where they are lax.  Glad to see the start of counting and recording pitches in HS.

Just curious on a couple things in your post.  If a high school program lacks an off-season throwing program, doesn't it fall on the player to have his arm in shape?  IE, throw on his own without a program?  Second, with respect to the SS throwing 105 pitches, what did you expect the dad to do during the game?

Yes, it's up to the player...my son went thru it for 4 years.  He had used a good pitching coach when he was younger and also had several other kids on his HS team during his time in HS that were all willing to work during the winter....but as I said....basically on their own.   Either way, 105 the second day of the season is too many, that's my entire issue.

With regard to the dad, I didn't necessarily mean he would or should  do something during the game, though if it was me, it wouldn't have gone that long (trust me, it happened when our JV coach tried to put my son back in for another inning when he was already at 110 the first game of his freshman year).  I don't know if the dad will care...that's not my problem, but as a parent of a D1 pitcher who has seen a lot of good pitchers end up not being able to throw in college (or at least miss significant time) due to overuse in HS I would hope he would at least make it know that he cares about his son's arm health.

You couldn't simply adopt Pitch Smart because the NFHS isn't a dictatorship that can just set down the law and have it followed blindly. You had to get a decent of amount of support for the rule and no state association can get enough support for a rule much more restrictive than what you have. Schools in each state actually have to vote on this stuff, so you're only going to get as restrictive a rule as you can garner enough support to pass.

Buckeye 2015 posted:

Stats.....again, not in Ohio....same rules for everyone.....freshman, JV and Varsity, which to me is maybe the most ridiculous part of what they put together.  125 pitch max in a freshman or JV game makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

You know I agree, but the only way to change it is to get the OHSAA to change it.

roothog66 posted:

You couldn't simply adopt Pitch Smart because the NFHS isn't a dictatorship that can just set down the law and have it followed blindly. You had to get a decent of amount of support for the rule and no state association can get enough support for a rule much more restrictive than what you have. Schools in each state actually have to vote on this stuff, so you're only going to get as restrictive a rule as you can garner enough support to pass.

It’s true that NFHS isn’t a dictatorship, and if I had my druthers they wouldn’t be in the business of writing baseball rule books at all. I’d much rather Baseball USA would do the rule book writing and standard setting, but no one there has the stones.

luv baseball posted:

This smacks of a great opportunity for someone.  A relatively simple data base to build with only a few inputs Name, DOB, Date Pitched, IP, # of pitches.  Signoff by H. Coach of both teams.  Probably get paid on either a license or subscription basis.  So charge each league $500 for a season which is $50 to $100 per school depending on teams in the league.  In a state like VA where there are about 50 leagues that would push $25k for the season.  

Heck - HSBBW should try to set it up and sell (give) it to NHFS to use as the standard.

No need to reinvent the wheel. MaxPreps is already set up and free! All any coach has to do is use it.

Stats4Gnats posted:

roothog66 posted:

You couldn't simply adopt Pitch Smart because the NFHS isn't a dictatorship that can just set down the law and have it followed blindly. You had to get a decent of amount of support for the rule and no state association can get enough support for a rule much more restrictive than what you have. Schools in each state actually have to vote on this stuff, so you're only going to get as restrictive a rule as you can garner enough support to pass.

 

It’s true that NFHS isn’t a dictatorship, and if I had my druthers they wouldn’t be in the business of writing baseball rule books at all. I’d much rather Baseball USA would do the rule book writing and standard setting, but no one there has the stones.

Guidelines are one thing, but pushing it on state associations is another. An organization like PG can just unilaterally rule that they are using Pitch Smart and coaches can take it or leave it. State associations have to have the support of the coaches and AD's or it won't work. If the NFHS had simply laid down something like PS and not allowed the states to work on their own plans, there would have been a revolt and it's entirely conceivable that some states would have removed baseball from under the NFHS umbrella. When Colorado went through this process three years ago, there is NO WAY anything like Pitch Smart could have passed. It was hard enough getting what we have. 

These things work incrementally. Schools and coaches need some time to see that this doesn't hurt them as much as they feared, then you can look to refine it - especially rest periods. Ten years ago, there I have absolutely no doubt you could not have come close to implementing pitch counts in any form. Today, most at least reluctantly agree they're needed and in a few years, there will be more support for tighter restrictions. 

What I have seen in Southern California thus far is almost a take care of yourself approach.  I have yet to scout a game or be involved in a game in which there has been no communication.  The biggest problem is that there is no true regulation by CIF (Governing body)  they want nothing to do with it, nor do the umps.  All coaches seem to be monitoring separately and I have yet to see a complaint.  

On a separate note I think it is laughable that people above complain about HS coach's and the 105 pitch limit.  Most of these pitchers come to us already throwing high pitch counts and breaking balls from youth travel ball and then they do not rest over the course of the year.  Then.....BOOM, it's our fault that the kids damaged.  Are their idiot HS coaches that abuse pitchers, yes.  There are also idiot Dads, and travel ball coaches.  Please blame EVERYONE and not just the easy target.  

IEBSBL posted:

On a separate note I think it is laughable that people above complain about HS coach's and the 105 pitch limit.  Most of these pitchers come to us already throwing high pitch counts and breaking balls from youth travel ball and then they do not rest over the course of the year.  Then.....BOOM, it's our fault that the kids damaged.  Are their idiot HS coaches that abuse pitchers, yes.  There are also idiot Dads, and travel ball coaches.  Please blame EVERYONE and not just the easy target.  

Again, read my post above.  In travel ball, you have the option of taking your kid to another coach, team or organization if you don't like the way a coach is handling your kid.  My son always had good coaches in travel because we did our research before joining a team.  He played 10 years of travel ball and his coaches never once overthrew a kid.....not one time.  The option to pick and choose your coach in HS isn't available for most kids.  Also, I didn't say all HS coaches were bad....far from it....but yes, there are some, obviously enough that the NFHS decided a rule needed put in place.

With regard to the NFHS mandating a rule.  The state associations are under the NFHS so what they say goes.  HS's are part of their state associations.  Not sure how all the state associations work, but I'm fairly certain in Ohio,  this was considered a safety issue, different than a normal rule change.  The OHSAA gave a committee of coaches the chance to have input, which is where the final PC numbers came from, but there was no "option"... it was going to happen and schools had to follow it once it was announced. The coaches, AD's, etc had no option on "voting on it".  They do for regular rule changes, but safety issues don't give them an option.