I love animals - but?

You might find this interesting:

Where is the outrage when humans are abused?

Well, he is a bad guy. I am not sure if there is anything to be gained attempting to classify his subhuman hobby on a scale of horror. He is being dealt with legally and professionally. The press will always put this in the worst possible light to sell papers, pageviews, etc. Any attempt to minimize the evil of the barbaric "hobby" is probably ill-advised. He is a really bad guy who will pay. Disecting the levels of savagery is pointless, imo and probably increases in the level of disgust held by most. He'll go to jail for a year or two and lose his $100M job. Appropriate outcome, imo.

Dad I agree. But where is this level of outrage when a child gets abused? When a woman gets raped? When a three time DUI offender smashes into a family and kills them? I mean I have seen more sympathy and empathy for convicted drug users that have stolen robbed and raped. Then they get a talk show because they have "Turned their life around and should be a source of insipiration to us all". The guys participated in something that is wrong. He tortured and killed some dogs. It sure would be nice if these same people outside the courthouse showed the same outrage when a child was mistreated.
When is the last time you saw a horde of people outside a court house yelling for justice in one of these situations? Is it me or is something missing here?

quote:

But where is this level of outrage when a child gets abused? When a woman gets raped? When a three time DUI offender smashes into a family and kills them?

Around here DUI Manslaughter get 10-20 years. Violent crime against humans is proportionately worse and dealt with appropriately by the justice system, up to and including the dealth penalty. I agree public opinion is disproportionate in this case, driven solely by celebrity.

The more zeros you have on a paycheck the closer to the front page the story goes.

Are there others that have done worse with little hoop-a-la, there sure are. But those who put Vick on the pedistal have the first shot to knock him off. I don't think it would make a difference if it was Vick or Bubba from the next ridge, we would have the same dispicable thoughts about both. In this case it happened to one of our "heros" and the first thing we do when that happens is publically seperate ourselves from them. He earned the spotlight, and he has to deal with the downsides also as it part of the territory.

Uh...rz...do you have any of those paychecks that have a number in front of those zeroes? I could use a good one!

quote:

Originally posted by rz1:
The more zeros you have on a paycheck the closer to the front page the story goes.

Are there others that have done worse with little hoop-a-la, there sure are. But those who put Vick on the pedistal have the first shot to knock him off. I don't think it would make a difference if it was Vick or Bubba from the next ridge, we would have the same dispicable thoughts about both. In this case it happened to one of our "heros" and the first thing we do when that happens is publically seperate ourselves from them. He earned the spotlight, and he has to deal with the downsides also as it part of the territory.

Exactly. Regulars folks can roam the countryside harvesting deer with Cadillacs with neary a note of infamy.

I was listeing to someone on the radio about why the hoopla about this, what about high profile players who beat up their wives, or get DUI's and beat up officers? Most of these occurance happen and are not pre meditated or thought about before tehy occyur. Unfortunate but true. Also most first offenders get off very easy when these minor crimes occur.

I agree with Dad04, some crimes are clear cut and have minimum and max penalties. My understanding he had the right to plead not guilty, my understanding he knew exactly what he was doing for a very long time. Wait until the IRS gets their hands on him for the money he collected for betting, they will make his life more miserable than the PETA folks.

He is the lowest of the low, but I agree, I am sick of the sensationalism of the press.

quote:

Originally posted by Dad04:
Exactly. Regulars folks can roam the countryside harvesting deer with Cadillacs with neary a note of infamy.

As far as I'm concerned the deer hit me and I'm sticky with that story!

I find the disparity between how dog-fighting is treated and hunting is treated, ironic at best. While Vick is vilified, athletes and former athletes make careers out of killing animals for sport. I have hunted, so I know all the pros and cons. Is there any difference between sticking an arrow in a deer and having it roam around for hours hurt and bleeding or two dogs fighting?

I find Vick pathetic. I find the uproar even more pathetic. Leonard Little with the Rams killed someone and he's playing. Ray Lewis was involved in the coverup of a murder and he is the poster child for the NFL. Jamall Lewis distributed cocaine.

I love dogs, but they are not people. There are a lot of cruel and inhumane things going on in this country. Not a day goes by without some child being abducted, or sexually assaulted or both. I am sure the federal prosecutors have better things to do.

Vick was the flavor of the month. Now it is the genius Bellichick, next it will be all the names released in the Albany investigation. Wait a week something new will come up.

quote:

Originally posted by 2Bmom:
You might find this interesting:

Where is the outrage when humans are abused?

These have been my thoughts and questions too!

quote:

Is there any difference between sticking an arrow in a deer and having it roam around for hours hurt and bleeding or two dogs fighting?

This is the TO and Woopy Goldberg argument.

For starters one is illegal and one is legal.

Secondly, the hunters I know (including myself) don't derive pleasure from suffering. Even though killing is involved in hunting, I have gone many years without getting a deer and still enjoy the activity - regardless of the kill. The meat from the animal is consumed just like with other farm animals. Fishing also involves taking the life of a living organism but most people don't consider that in the same vein.

In contrast, Vick clearly enjoyed the activity beyond just the sport of gambling on two dogs fighting which is cruel enough in itself. He financed the operation and meated out severe and cruel punishment for low performing dogs. Since we are analogizing this to hunting, he could have done many things to the dogs that were not performing to expectations. He could have nursed them back to health. He could have been kind to them but aparently this distracts from their ferocity. He could have taken them to the humane society. He could have used a .22 caliber bullet and ended things instantly. Instead, he chose electrocution, hanging, starvation, isolation, drowning, and slamming to the ground for example which are all forms of non-instantaneous death. This tells me he enjoyed seeing living things suffer beyond merely wagering on their demise. In my mind that makes him a sadist and also a creep. Other than that, hunting and dog fighting are the same

I agree with Coach May.

What he did was awful and should be punished. But there are wife beaters, murderers, drug users, etc. in the NFL. He's worse than them?

Let him do his time and when he's finished, he should be allowed to play again. Just like any other ex-con should be allowed to work and earn a living -- as big a living as he can legally earn.

I predict Vick will end up returning punts and maybe playing wide receiver for the Raiders come 2010.

But seriously, the biggest clue to where this is going is with the national animal rescue group who came forward arguing he should have to forfeit all the money he'd ever made in his life in order to fund pro-animal causes. Leaving aside the fact that his earnings are not the fruits of his illegal activities, and thus one shouldn't have anything to do with the other, does anyone need more than one guess to figure out which pro-animal cause the spokesman had in mind as a potential recipient of Vick's fortune?

It's a media feeding frenzy and it'll eventually move on to some Britney Spears thing, or maybe Lindsay Lohan or Paris Hilton or whoever falls on their face next.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:
First of all let me just say I love animals. I do not in anyway condone what Mike Vick admitted to doing. I have never been a fan of his and thought he was over rated as a pro QB the product of alot of hype. And yes I really never liked him especially after all the off field stuff leading up to this latest incident. Did the guy go off and kill an entire family with a butcher knife? Did he set off a nuclear bomb? I mean this guy is being treated like the poster child for hate. Sentence him and let him pay his dues. But for Gods sake does anyone else feel the same way?

Animals are abused and killed all the time. This is about a celebrity abusing and killing animals. It sells newspapers. It gets user hits on the internet. It gets people tuned into the news on TV. If Vick had abused and killed an adult woman or a child imagine the outrage. It would be nonstop.

quote:

Originally posted by Dad04:
Regulars folks can roam the countryside harvesting deer with Cadillacs with neary a note of infamy.

The law allows hunting deer. The law does not allow abusing and killing dogs. While there are those who oppose hunting, society generally accepts it. Society doesn't accept killing domesticated animals considered man's best friend.

If Vick were a "normal Joe" nobody would have even heard about it and perhaps the authorities might not have even cared

It is all about celebrity!!!!

quote:

Instead, he chose electrocution, hanging, starvation, isolation, drowning, and slamming to the ground for example which are all forms of non-instantaneous death. This tells me he enjoyed seeing living things suffer beyond merely wagering on their demise. In my mind that makes him a sadist and also a creep.

He's a piece of SH*T, Torture might be more appropriate for his penalty. How's his brother doing these days. Why did all that athletic ability have to be wasted on Michael Vick?

Cruelty is cruelty regardless if legal or illegal. I doubt if the animal cares about the "good intentions" of the man killing it.

Vick should rot in H@ll. But he will have alot of company.

WI hunting takes ~500,000 dear a year and we are still in a population explosion. The alternative for thinning the herd is starvation and disease, which is true suffering.

PG,
His brother was a "walk on" (I don't know how else you would describe it) for Miami Dolphins but got the boot under new coach.

He too messed up his career.

I could never hurt an animal but I agree one is legal and one is not and hunting is a way to thin out the heard. It's also controlled during specific times if I am correct.

I can't even put a live lobster in boiling water, but I can have someone else do it and eat it!

rz

I fish but do not hunt but I truly understand the need for hunting to keep the deer herd down so they do not starve to death as well as spread disease

It is the same with fishing --if we do not fish the waters become overpopulated and then disease sets in

Killing dogs is not the same as hunting---in Asian countries dogs are raised for food just as cattle here in the USA and I understand that--but raising dogs to kill. Torturing them and killing them is absurd and heartless

quote:

It's also controlled during specific times if I am correct.

Yes it is and every year the season is extended and rules in some areas are change where you can't shoot a buck until you shoot a doe. It is out of hand.

If you can imagine that during November there almost 2x more Wisconsinites carrying loaded high powered rifles within the State borders than there are Americans carrying high powered rifles in Iraq.

WI has very few home break-ins and burglaries. Robbery is a dangerous profession in WI.

Anyone who says it is not all out war with those furry varmints also known as Odocoileus virginianus has not seen this "fly-by" sent to me by an esteemed fellow webster.
deer attack

quote:

by deldad: I find the disparity between how dog-fighting is treated and hunting is treated, ironic at best

with that IQ level I'm afraid you'll never understand

it's sad but Vick (& group) were doing what breeders (esp fighting breeds) DO ... "culling the breed"

since Roman times, inferior stock has always been disposed of so it could not breed.

this has been SOP with fighting breeds for 30-40 yrs in US .. anyone normal person who owns one is crazy.

I do totally agree that people do not get nearly as worked up about the abuse that goes on towards children and people. Most of us cannot let our young children OUT OF OUR SIGHT because we have to fear the child molesters and abductors etc. Why are we not OUTRAGED about that.

But I also totally agree you can't compare the hunting to the dog fighting for reasons already mentioned. Animal lovers just don't want to accept the fact that if there was no hunting these deer would suffer greatly from starvation.

Another thing no one has mentioned is the other components of dog-fighting: drug use at the fights, firearms, children in violent, dangerous places etc.

quote:

since Roman times, inferior stock has always been disposed of so it could not breed.

ps - in China those animals would be valued .. but on a plate or at a tailgate

carefull what you order to eat at the Olympics

quote:

Originally posted by rz1:
WI hunting takes ~500,000 dear a year and we are still in a population explosion. The alternative for thinning the herd is starvation and disease, which is true suffering.

Does that include Cadillac kills?

I don't understand. Hunting is good, because that way we preventing deers to die of starvation because superpoblation. Humm...Sound to me like man may violate the natural way of living stablished by God.
Original hunting was stablished for humans to eat, not to hang a deer's head on the wall. If you believe that you may kill animals to control their population, you can also go to Africa to hunt babies that are dieying from starvation from the first day that Europeans start to hunt animals over there.

While I won't normally take a shot at any other poster, I'm going to make an exception and say that Deldad's thinly veiled oppostition to hunting should be kept to himself. Comments such as he made about animals being shot with arrows "roaming around for hours hurt and bleeding" is not only generally very inaccurate, it's highly ignorant and simply meant to be inflammatory. He goes on to say that "cruelty is cruelty regardless if legal or not." Again, just an attempt to pass his biased views off on others. Hunting, properly practiced, is neither cruel or inhumane. If you don't like it, don't do it. Many others, myself included, find hunting and fishing to be wonderful passtimes and a way of life. I take offense at your biased comments.

Deldad, you sir, are ignorant in your understanding of hunting and should keep your opinions to yourself. First of all, animals shot with arrows generally die a swift death, very swift. I've taken the lives of a fair number of animals with archery equipment, up to elk and moose that weigh 750-1000 pounds, and a well shot animal often dies within seconds or minutes, and commonly within sight. You make it seem as if we're all slobs who inflict enduring pain on animals, and your biased views are not only inaccurate, they're offensive to me, and I'm quite sure, to others as well.

Please keep your biased opinions to yourself. If you have to comment, know a little bit about which you speak. To those who know about this, you're pretty clueless. Stick to baseball stuff, you do seem to know a little bit about that.

Having a been labeled by some in my family as leaning toward being warped and/or unstable I saw on our recent trip to Staten Island a building that had 2 businesses within where there outdoor signage was in an unintentional "L" shape when looking at it from a particular angle. I took a pic but in my astonishment of the sight I wonder if I turned the camera on. It read

P
E
T

C
L
I
N
I
C

VIETNAMESE TAKEOUT

I went in and asked the vet if I was alone in finding that unusual and he said that he has always been a little shy to admit the "darkness" of the situation. I think he was relieved that someone else noticed it.

RZ, that's bad...but very funny!

quote:

Originally posted by Racab:
I don't understand. Hunting is good, because that way we preventing deers to die of starvation because superpoblation. Humm...Sound to me like man may violate the natural way of living stablished by God.
Original hunting was stablished for humans to eat, not to hang a deer's head on the wall. If you believe that you may kill animals to control their population, you can also go to Africa to hunt babies that are dieying from starvation from the first day that Europeans start to hunt animals over there.

My freezer still has meat from last year, we bless the food on our table, the soup kitchens around the State get their share of donated meat, farmers cash crops are saved to a certain extent. I know of very few people that have wall mounts. CWD (Chronic Wasting disease) threatens the livestock and potentially humans. Man created the problem by supplying an ample food source and we are now experiencing the downside.

This site talks of father/son bonding and life lessons through baseball. That same lesson is learned in the woods and it may even be a deeper relationship.

Hunting is a soulful event.You have to walk the walk before you put it down.

quote:

This site talks of father/son bonding and life lessons through baseball. That same lesson is learned in the woods and it may even be a deeper relationship.

Hunting is a soulful event.You have to walk the walk before you put it down.

The best time's I ever had with my Dad and Brother's and Friend's. Was when we were Hunting.
And it had nothing to do with Harvesting an animal.

The Deer Population in the US is Higher then it's ever been in the History of America.

"I predict Vick will end up returning punts and maybe playing wide receiver for the Raiders come 2010." Agreed,Midlo Dad! Thinking maybe Mr. Davis could use Lyndsey, Brittany and Paris on the sideline in someting skimpy and shiny. Just another committment to excellence!

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
I predict Vick will end up returning punts and maybe playing wide receiver for the Raiders come 2010.

He'll be playing QB in 08 or 09 for some desperate team who doesn't worry about public reaction. The Raiders still might be a good choice. The Falcons are still a possibility. A lot of fans there still love him. It depends how Arthur Blank feels about employing Vick.

Hunting is not a sport in any sense of the term.

My neighbor used to coat himself with deer do-do or urine and then sit up in a tree for days.

Every couple of years he came back with some meat.

Every year, however, he came back smelling like s..t and it lasted for weeks.

When the deer are carrying rifles and can shoot back then I will call it a sport. What if you were walking to your stand and then "Bam" you look up and a deer is in a tree stand trying to knock you off before you can set up on him? Now thats a sport. Hunting for food to eat. OK I can see that. Hunting for the sake of having fun killing an innocent animal - ????

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:
When the deer are carrying rifles and can shoot back then I will call it a sport. What if you were walking to your stand and then "Bam" you look up and a deer is in a tree stand trying to knock you off before you can set up on him? Now thats a sport. Hunting for food to eat. OK I can see that. Hunting for the sake of having fun killing an innocent animal - ????

So from a consitutional standpoint, do you claim the right to arm bears?

quote:

Hunting for the sake of having fun killing an innocent animal - ????

INNOCENT.
We like to hunt Elk.
And there was this little old lady that had a house with her Husband. And she had a nice garden with plenty of beautiful flower's in it??
And we asked if we could hunt there property for deer and Elk.

She said for heavens sake, Yes.
There eating all my flower's. LOL

One's man Bambi, is another Womans Pest. LOL
EH

Coach May,

Once - I was walking through the woods. Minding my own business.

A deer came up to me. The deer had a Yankee hat on.

He nudged me with his snout - which got my attention.
I turned around.
He asked me if I liked the Yankees.

I said No. I am a Mets fan.

He said "Boswell sucks and so does Koosman".
Then he gored me with his left antler.

So I shot him - and then I ate him.

A tasty dinner - and one less Yankee fan.



P.S. Are you going to the Impact tournament this weekend?

This is how you Cure Micheal Vick.
And People like Micheal Vick who use Animals that fight,
As Entertainment and Gambling.
And thats what fighting Dogs is all About. Gambling Money.
Player's in this game just need a half starved Pit bull with an attitude. And they can win some money without to much investment.

When they get caught doing this type of Illegal behavior.
Fighting Dogs, Chickens, Whatever..

You Put them in a cage.
You can limit there food intake, But not starve them.
And then when there just getting to get angry and lashout.
You put them in the Octegon, With Chuck Liddell.
You Know a good old cage match.
Then they will know what there Dogs went thru.
EH

EH,

Either that - or lock them up in a Shea Stadium bathroom for about a week.

They will be cured.

Then theres that poor bovine treated like king for months. Then the guy whos been feeding you, talkin you up to the neighbors, letting you hang out all day with the guys in the field, called in for dinner, you take a **** and someone cleans it up, then he puts you in a party van with all your buddies on a road trip. They stop and direct you through the turnstiles, you think your at a world series of cow chip throwing. Before you know it you are in a box seat for one and your up to bat.

That sounds fair doesn't it? Real sporty. However, no ones complaining when the weber fires up. We're at the top of the food chain and with that standing we do things that sometimes don't feel that good. But that's our place, and I'd rather be on this end.

Well said rz1.

I'm not in favour of what Vick did.

But rz1 makes a great point.

Many others are guilty of what Vick did and worse, but they don't get the publicity he did. Here's the sickening story of something that happened in the San Antonio area a couple of weeks ago:

SAN ANTONIO -- Guadalupe County authorities arrested a group of teens who they said tortured a dog to death in an abandonded home on Tuesday.

Police said the three boys ages 12, 14, and 16 walked into Stephanie Tavere's yard and stole her beloved dog Tobey.

Officers said the teens took the dog to an abandoned house and repeatedly threw the dog out of a second story window.

After its legs were broken, the boys hung the dog in a tree and proceeded to beat it like a pinata, authorities said.

Police said the teens ended up decapitating the dog.

A neighbor across the street saw the suspicious activity and called police.

The teens are being held on charges of animal cruelty resulting in death.

If convicted, they could be put in jail until they turn 19.

Nan Udell, an assistant co-attorney, said local law enforcement are very disturbed by the animal cruelty case.

She declined to show photos to KSAT 12 News that she said are too gruesome to fathom.

Udell said what is also disturbing is that the boys have shown no remorse for what they did.

"We're very concerned about that," Udell said. "They have been asked to have psychological testing so we can see if this is a pattern or a fluke. We don't know right now."

I find it interesting that I never claimed to be anti-hunting just went about comparing the cruelty. I hunt and grew up hunting. I know all I need to know. But to say that sticking an arrow in an animal is not cruel is not realistic. How long does the arrow have to be in the animal before it is considered cruel. The original question was that they are just animals and what was all the hoopla. My take on it was yes we treat animals in a less than humane nature for sport all the time. Is it the level of inhumanity that matters? Or do we placate ourselves in to believing that we are helping the animals by hunting them. I guess since we disrupted the natural order of things we have to justify the correction.

I would never try to interfere with your or my right to hunt, but I also understand that any time you kill another creature there is cruelty involved.

quote:

by Racab: Original hunting was stablished for humans to eat, not to hang a deer's head on the wall.

those heads don't taste too good and take up too much room in the freezer

quote:

by deldad: How long does the arrow have to be in the animal before it is considered cruel

good question ... and what is the deer thinking as the wolves eat him alive.

I'm not a hunter, but hunting and dog fighting are not even close! As a kid I saw dog fighting, it was done in my neighborhood.
First, a dog raised to fight is f**cking tortured from birth. An unbelievable existence, beatings, teasing, more beatings, more teasing. No contact with other animals or humans (except for beating, teasing, and feeding.) AND THE DOG HASN'T EVEN HAD HIS FIRST FIGHT YET!.

Now comes the fight. I can't even explain it other than horrific? Teeth nashing, flesh being pulled off, eyes and ears ripped apart etcc...

What Vic funded and participated in was premeditated and systematic cruelty.

If I get lucky and find a jeannie in a bottle. My wish. "I WANT TO BE THE MIDDLE LINEBACKER THE DAY VICK RETURNS TO FOOTBALL"

Hopefully, the situation will bring more awareness to local law enforcement across the country to find and punish offenders.

You guys, Bullwinkle is going to not come around for fear of being hunted down!

They hunt gators down here, is that cruel? They are such ugly and nasty things to begin with. They even extend season if the population is too heavy.

I never thought much about hunting a gator but do feel for the bambi's of the world.

It's a matter of opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Infield08:
Many others are guilty of what Vick did and worse, but they don't get the publicity he did. Here's the sickening story of something that happened in the San Antonio area a couple of weeks ago:

SAN ANTONIO -- Guadalupe County authorities arrested a group of teens who they said tortured a dog to death in an abandonded home on Tuesday.

Police said the three boys ages 12, 14, and 16 walked into Stephanie Tavere's yard and stole her beloved dog Tobey.

Officers said the teens took the dog to an abandoned house and repeatedly threw the dog out of a second story window.

After its legs were broken, the boys hung the dog in a tree and proceeded to beat it like a pinata, authorities said.

Police said the teens ended up decapitating the dog.

A neighbor across the street saw the suspicious activity and called police.

The teens are being held on charges of animal cruelty resulting in death.

If convicted, they could be put in jail until they turn 19.

Nan Udell, an assistant co-attorney, said local law enforcement are very disturbed by the animal cruelty case.

She declined to show photos to KSAT 12 News that she said are too gruesome to fathom.

Udell said what is also disturbing is that the boys have shown no remorse for what they did.

"We're very concerned about that," Udell said. "They have been asked to have psychological testing so we can see if this is a pattern or a fluke. We don't know right now."

I fold. The thread is now officially gross.

quote:

Originally posted by Infield08:
Many others are guilty of what Vick did and worse, but they don't get the publicity he did. Here's the sickening story of something that happened in the San Antonio area a couple of weeks ago:

SAN ANTONIO -- Guadalupe County authorities arrested a group of teens who they said tortured a dog to death in an abandonded home on Tuesday.

Police said the three boys ages 12, 14, and 16 walked into Stephanie Tavere's yard and stole her beloved dog Tobey.

Officers said the teens took the dog to an abandoned house and repeatedly threw the dog out of a second story window.

After its legs were broken, the boys hung the dog in a tree and proceeded to beat it like a pinata, authorities said.

Police said the teens ended up decapitating the dog.

A neighbor across the street saw the suspicious activity and called police.

The teens are being held on charges of animal cruelty resulting in death.

If convicted, they could be put in jail until they turn 19.

Nan Udell, an assistant co-attorney, said local law enforcement are very disturbed by the animal cruelty case.

She declined to show photos to KSAT 12 News that she said are too gruesome to fathom.

Udell said what is also disturbing is that the boys have shown no remorse for what they did.

"We're very concerned about that," Udell said. "They have been asked to have psychological testing so we can see if this is a pattern or a fluke. We don't know right now."

Think this post cuts to the chase! Dog fighting and cruelty to animals has nothing to do with sport or gambling, it has to do with the enjoyment of seeing something suffer. These kids should be put away for life. If they would do this to an animal, they would do it to a human. People who watch dog fights, c o c k fights, ultimate fighting matches, bull fights, gladiator rings, whatever it may be, enjoy seeing things suffer. Some animalistic urge,
I guess. Watching it is one thing, and watching two humans who have a choice to be doing the fighting is one thing, but to be the people who deal out the suffering or set up the circumstances for the suffering is another thing entirely. Those people are pure evil and should not be allowed to be in a free society, IMO.

Deldad, we'll never agree so why don't we give it a rest. The freaking world is full of varying degrees of cruelty, in case you haven't noticed. What you're complaining about has to rank at the very bottom in terms of degree, with dog fighting at the other end. Many Americans really don't have a very good comprehension of what goes on in the natural world on a daily basis, or even the human world in other regions; things that are considered normal and accepted. You're providing a biased view in a misleading light, and I know from first-hand experience that what you've offered to the unknowing as fact, is most often not the case.

As a final example, I've shot elk with arrows and had them pass compeletely through the bull, and he had not clue at all what had just happened, as he's stood there calling and challenging me (thinking my calling was another bull elk), until he tipped over within 10 yards of where I shot him. I've done that more than a few times, and assure you they don't comprehend suffering as we know it. Most of the animals I've shot with a bow have expired within sight, in well under a minute. I DON'T think that's cruel, but rather is quite humane. If you were to expand it to guns, yeah, that's more violent but generally very quick so that is also quite humane. IF you thought about this for even a minute, you might realize that what animals do to each other regularly is far more violent and painful than anything we hunters do.

I don't care to continue a debate with you in front of a bunch of people who really only care about baseball, so lets give it a rest. I think we can all agree that Michael Vick and anyone else who tortures animals is a low life P.O.S.; so why don't we stick to what we can agree about? If you want to debate baseball, I'll talk with you all day long.

If you want to keep debating the ethics of hunting, you can PM me; but you better know what you're talking about, as I sure do. It might take me a while to respond too, as it's hunting season. Last weekend was shared with my son on a wonderful Sage Grouse hunt on the high desert; deer season opens for my son and I next weekend, and I leave shortly after that for a couple elk hunts in Arizona and Nevada, so I won't have a lot of time to debate with you. I don't even have the elk licenses, but love hunting rutting bulls so much that I'm tagging along to help with the hunts.

You say "carnivore" and I say "herbivore"
You say "omnivore” I say "what for?"
"carnivore" "herbivore", "omnivore" "what for?"
Let's call the whole thing off

You say "let’s shoot it," I say "just leave it"
You say "its dinner", I say "it’s Momma"
“shoot it” “leave it”, “dinner” “Momma”
Oh, let's call the whole thing off

Moosie!, how've you been big fella? Must be tough times in ZOT-land with the coaches leaving, huh?

Thanks for your thoughts, I couldn't agree more.

Have you been following the 'eaters much this fall? I know it's early, but a couple of your pitchers are kids I know and regard highly. Cory Hamilton played locally until moving to UCI, and Jake Morton is a local kid who played with our summer teams. Great young men, good pitchers too!

My intent was not to flame but to promote discussion about the moral lines that we draw considering cruelty and animals. One persons cruelty is another persons sport. As time has changed so have the lines.

As to the Vick issue and the issue raised by the newspaper article involving the kids, I find no redeeming social value for any human being who knowingly and with forethought would do those types of things to an animal.

As to the hunting issue, 99% of all hunters are ethical, moral and compassionate outdoorsman, who care greatly for the animals they hunt. There is a segment of the population that disagrees with this view and propose the arguments I have espoused above. I don't agree with them but it was interesting to see the reaction when they were forwarded in a comparison to dogfighting.

In my former life, an allegation of animal cruelty by a kid was one of the warning signs of a troubled mind. Often mistreating animals was the first step in a troubled and dangerous life. Vick deserves what he gets. The people who are cruel to humans deserve even more, let us make sure they get it.

dedad: sorry that I hijacked thread with my silliness.

I do believe that mankind overall is made up of good intentions. Yet one man's travesty is another's delight. Does this makes sense...no. We will never understand each other, yet we must exist together.

Life is full of contradictions of convictions, what is cute to one, is dinner to another. Acuna Matata.

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Eater Nation will survive! School doesn't start until September 27th, first offical practice is October 4th.
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(comment to self: I wonder if they got con-vick-ions?)

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I must first say that I am not an animal lover. Nor am I an animal abuser. I don't kick cats and dogs when I encounter them. I just avoid and ignore them when I can. I am not a dog or cat owner. Nor am I a hunter. I can't stand dogs nor cats. I rarely, knowingly, will eat food in the home of someone who owns a dog or cat that lives inside. Nor when they bring food to work will I eat it. It makes me sick to my stomach when I see people kissing the mouths of dogs and cats or allowing those animals to lick them on the face. I hope that these revelations do not make me a bad person in the eyes of my fellow posters. I wasn't raised with dogs and cats and I just don't like them. I do love mankind.

Now having said that I respect the right of dog and cat lovers and owners to do anything with their animals they wish. And, there should be no comparison between the hunting and killing of animals and torturing dogs. One is legal, and in our society can be viewed as compassionate. The other is illegal and cruel

Please know that I do not approve or condone what Michael Vick is accused of doing. He committed a horrible crime. He knew that he was breaking the law and he should suffer the penalties and punishment for his crimes. I along with millions of Atlantans are very dissapointed in him.

However, I do not agree that he should be banned for life from playing football. I believe in second chances. He did not hurt nor kill a human being. If, after the two or more years he serves in prison, he is physically and mentally able to make a come back I feel that he should be allowed to do so.

Just my humble opinion.

Hey, we're back on topic, thanks to Catfish!

I have to agree with you, Catfish and Coach May, that once this rotten POS pays his debt to society, he deserved the opportunity to seek employment again in the NFL. I wouldn't pay a dime to watch him play, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't have the opportunity once he's finished his prison sentence and paid any fines imposed upon him.

On the other hand, it'll be interesting to see which teams might consider hiring him. I am troubled by the criminals and borderline criminals that are already employed in professional sports, Mr. Vick is going to highlight thtat aspect of society to many millions who've been too ignorant of this fact, and that'll be some good that comes out of this unfortunate situation.

OMG,
How about BULLfighting, that's cruel and horrible to watch.

JMO.

Back to topic.

I agree with Deldad, studies show that those that torture animals like Vic is accused of (and plead guilty too) usually have some deep problems.

kudos to catfish for steering us back on topic

but w/all due respect that is one of the top 3 oddest things I have ever heard

in my 45 yrs .. ok 50 yrs .. ok, ok 56 yrs .. I have had snacks, lunches, pot-luck, tailgated & dined formaly with (I'm guessing) 10,000's of folks - - at work - at my home - at their home - from MY and/or THEIR grill, picnic table, pizza box, kitchen counter, kitchen table, or dining room table and I have never ONCE heard anything like the views expressed in your last statement

I am rather glad you brought that up Bee>, I found it quite scary myself.

But everyone is entitled to their opinions and feelings.

I've seen dog and cat lovers treat their pets as though they were human. They allow them to walk over the kitchen counters. When they open their refrigerator, the pet sniffs and licks the food inside. While they are cooking or preparing food they will touch the animals without washing their hands before continuing on with the food preparation. Of course, the pet owner usually doesn't see anything wrong with that. But I do. That cat or dog is their baby. I understand that. One lady I work with will drink from the same cup as her dog. I've seen her mixing food, then give the dog a bite with the same hand and continue mixing the food without washing her hands. This is gross to me.

But, as I said, I am not a dog or cat lover. I don't see anything scary or odd about how I feel, Tiger Paw Mom and Bee. This is just one of my idiosyncrasies. We all have them. This is one of mine. I know a lot of people who feel this way.

I don't dislike dog and cat lovers and owners and rarely do they ever know that I feel this way. I would never be rude and tell someone that I would not eat their food because of their pet. I just don't eat their food and no one notices.

As I stated before, my parents didn't allow us to have pets growing up because they disliked cats and dogs. So I don't have that feeling for pets as pet lovers do. Still, I would never intentionally hurt an animal. The other morning driving out of my subdivision I killed a baby squirrel. Almost destroyed my neighbor's mail box trying to avoid hitting him. When I returned home from work he was still there. Broke my heart.

If I have offended any pet lovers, I apologize.

Catfish, no need to apoligize.
And it's not odd if you did not grow up around animals. It's normal for you.
You really do have to love animals to allow them in your home.
They are a source of comfort and also something to care for.
There not for everybody.
EH

Thanks, theEH. It is not my intention to offend anyone. But many pet lovers expect others to feel the same way about their pets as they do. And when you don't, you're odd or scary. Oh, well. I've been called worse.

Catfish I'm a dog lover, And he lives in my house.
all 100lbs of him. So I guess you will not be over for dinner

I will agree with you on the dog licking face thing.

THIS IS WHY:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIk3UDvNZB8

Good peaple, think before you let this happen!!

TripleDad...We wouldn't have to have dinner. We could play cards and maybe drink a beer, watch the game.....

Catfish,

Nothing wrong with you at all. Some people love snakes and like to have "snakes" for pets. I don't like snakes! Wouldn't feel very comfortable in someone's house if they had snakes crawling around.

Bet there are others just like me who didn't grow up with snakes all over the house.

Whatta ya' say guys...do we let this Cat dude in 'da game?


Ok...yer in. Care for chips?

UM, SORRY, ALREADY ATE THE CHIPS! IN FACT, ATE ALL OF IT! I NEED A TUMS.

Yeah TripleDad...you've put on a few...anymore I can't even get you to look at the tailgate let alone jump up on it. It breaks my heart,but since you can't get in, I gotta' sell Ol' Blue...this Studebaker is just too much for you.


.
.
.
.
.
Maybe we can get you around on this lowboy?

I CAN DEAL WITH THE NEW RIDE...JUST DON'T TAKE MY FAVORITE BEVERIDGE AWAY

HA, ha, ha! That just cracks me up...oatmeal!...oatmeal is for losers!

Wow...That's a big ole cat! Looks kind of crazy, too!

LISTEN UP! I LIKE TO NIP INTO MY FAT PALS OATMEAL BREWSKIES NOW AND THEN. NOW WHO YOU CALLING A LOSER??

YOU WANT SOME OF ME?? BEEEEOTCH?

HEY I LIKE THE OATMEAL BREW TOO?

SET ME DOWN BOSS, I NEEDS TO TAKE CARE SOME NEIGHBORHOOD BIDNESS!!!

Quit it! You guys are making me sick. If you promise to stop posting these monstrosities I will write on the chalkboard 100 times:

I will never say I don't like cats and dogs again.

I will never say I don't like cats and dogs again.

I will never say I don't like cats and dogs again.

Catfish,
There are some things I agree with you, we have a cat, being a dog lover I couldn't stand cats. I hated cats. In 1995 I inherited a cat, he is the best,cats are very clean, he never goes outside and is well behaved, and gets the boot off of counters and tables with the water bottle if he gets curious. No cat hair anywhere in my home. We also have a granddog that comes to visit often and he behaves better than some people who visit. Pets fill voids in people lives and bring comfort and joy ti thousands. No one is knocking you because you do not like them.

BTW, locking lips with your pet is not cool, IMO.

However, sometimes some things are better left unsaid, stating you didn't like cats and dogs would have been enough to get the point across. Stating you wouldn't eat in a person's home or share food with anyone at work who has an animal was just a little out of the ordinary and strange for me.

Hope that you understand that.

And BTW, IMO, no player should ever be allowed to play professional sports when found guilty (he plead guilty) for any henious crime such as this. Not just Vick, but anyone. JMO.

wow those are some pics

some cultures would offer them a very special place at the dinner table

Tiger Paw Mom...As you know, I've always been honest with my fellow posters. I've always shared my feeling and opinions about the various topics we've discussed here for the past 5 going on 6 years now. This is the way I feel about cats and dogs. And I wasn't offended because you thought my statement was scary or strange. You know my skin is thicker than that.

I guess this could serve as a good example of why there are so many opinions about what Vick did and what his punishment should be. Opinions about him are all over the map because we all have different experiences and attitudes about animals. Dog lovers are outraged. Those who don't care for dogs are asking why such a stiff penalty.

The fact is Vick knowingly broke the law and definitely should be punished. We will have to agree to disagree about Vick's future. I believe that when he serves his time and pays all of his fines, he should be allowed to come back. Belichick cheated on the field of play and was not even suspended, at least not yet. In fact, his contract was extended last night. So he gets a bonus.

For people who are not dog lovers, that's sort of hard to explain or understand.

TPM, you are one of my favorite posters. I'll never let a dog come between us.

My wife is a Hospice case manager and our.....her dog, is a Hospice dog. Now I've learned to "put up" with animals (only dogs) as pets but what has amazed me is how animals assist in the mental side of recovery and comfort of the sick and dying. The dog smooch seems to be an acceptable greeting and good-bye for patients.

I'm not saying that I subscribe to dog cuddles that but from what I understand the most doorknobs are less healthy.

Catfish, no need to write sentences.
Complete this exercise and evrything will be ok.


As you can see, this pet is in extreme danger. What would you say to this person to make them aware of the perilous plight this helpless dog is facing.

TripleDad,

I don't like small hairless dogs..... so I say nothing.


Just kidding................kind of

quote:

I'm not saying that I subscribe to dog cuddles that but from what I understand the most doorknobs are less healthy.

Just carry one of these around with ya.

quote:

Originally posted by Catfish:

TPM, you are one of my favorite posters. I'll never let a dog come between us.

These are the only dogs that ever will come between the two!

quote:

Originally posted by TripleDad:

I've seen that guy in the gray sweater before...wasn't he one of the young Munchkins in that Oz flick? Yeah...he's the one in the middle. He hasn't grown much over the years.

First ya pick on the fat dog, now ya beaten up on the munchkins!

Woody, I think you need to spend a few quality minutes with the Hanson boys.

CAtfish,
I don't look at Vick's situation as dog lover, I look at it as what is right or wrong for a decent human being to do. I'd be upset if they were squirrels too. What he did was against the law.

I don't think what belicheat did was right either, he had been warned.


I just particularly don't like people who place themselves above others to do what they do because of who they are and what they think they can get away with. It doesn't matter if it involves humans, animals, baseball or football or whatever.

I have a tough time trying to figure out where we, as a society draw the line. Pete Rose comes to my mind, the man paid his dues for what he has done. Do you know that he is prohibited from making ANY personal profit from anything that has to do with MLB? He cheated, he went against the rules, he is paying dearly. Did he kill or harm anyone or anything. What Vick did, IMO, is 100 times more vile and hurtful than what Rose did. So I am really confused about the discussion of after he pays his "dues" he should be allowed to play again.

BTW, I would venture to say my cat's mouth is much cleaner than any door knob in america!

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:

BTW, I would venture to say my cat's mouth is much cleaner than any door knob in america!

Regardless, I'm keeping my mouth away from both.

quote:

Do you know that he is prohibited from making ANY personal profit from anything that has to do with MLB?

As harsh as that sounds, there is not much the MLB has for Rose where he could make an income. (Except for coaching, scouting or admin. job within MLB.)
He can't use any team or MLB logos for marketing purposes. BUT NEITHER CAN ANY PLAYER CURRENT OR RETIRED WITHOUT A LICENSE


He can do commercials
He can make appearances
He can sign baseballs, photos and all kinds of memorabilia
He can consult, give lessons, clinics etc..
He can write books, articles etc..

So basically Rose is able to do and does the same things other retired ball players do to make extra $$. The exception is acquiring the MLB license
to wholesale and retail memorabilia of himself and other players like Cal Ripkin does. see IroncladAuthentics.com

I seem to recall that Vick was a thug, if not merely a troublemaker way back when. If money can't rehabilitate someone, then I have no use for them. Good riddance!

Tripledad,
There was an event put on down here for charity by MLB and he was prohibited from selling anything or attending that event. They usually don't even want him in their ballparks. He is excluded from anything MLB that might require former players to attend. I was just giving an example, where do you draw the line? Should Vick be forbidden to ever have anything to do with NFL?

Rose does have a resturant here.

I love animals but isn't illegal to have a mountain lion in your house. Holy cow is that cat on the HGH or what? If Barry Bonds comes back as a cat is that what he will look like? Just think about the mouse who strolls into that house and then sees that cat.

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
Should Vick be forbidden to ever have anything to do with NFL?

I hear words like "condone"

I hear terms like "prevent"

I hear words like "Posse"

I have an old man Golden Retriever and basically took over my daughters little PUG Lucy, who happens to have adopted me as her keeper while she is away at nursing school, will bark all night if I don't let her in the bed(wife hates it), and those are the facts.

Next to me is a $60 football jersey my 10 year old son begged me to purchase a year ago. It is black and red, has a #7 on it, with the name VICK.

Do you really think I contacted Reebok customer service for a refund, and chastised them for their lack of diligence in whom they use as marketing icons?

Nah!! Not me. I am not controversial.

BUT I DID, AND I CAN'T WAIT very much longer to have the Press attend the jersey burning ceremony.

This guy is a scumbag.

TPM, yep that would have been an MLB event. Players don't make money from those anyway. And sure he doesn't go to MLB banquets and events, but that doesnt have anything to do with making money.

As far as Vick goes. His was a crime against society, just like the wife beaters, gun carriers, coke users, driving 50 mph over the speed limit, drunk driving, rape etc... Many athletes have been convited of such crimes and resumed their careers.
Rose' crime was against the sport, and has been dealt with accordingly.


The NFL will determine if Vick plays again, the fans will determine if he gets to make money from his status as an athlete.

hmmm, Would you want to own a Vick signed football right now? OR maybe eat at his new restaurant "THE DOG POUND" I doubt it!

quote:

Deldad: Just think about the mouse who strolls into that house and then sees that cat.

Forget the mouse...Think about the dog that likes to chase cats and runs into that thing one day.
LOL

[QUOTE]Originally posted by OLDSLUGGER8:

I have an old man Golden Retriever and basically took over my daughters little PUG Lucy, who happens to have adopted me as her keeper while she is away at nursing school, will bark all night if I don't let her in the bed(wife hates it), and those are the facts.

Next to me is a $60 football jersey my 10 year old son begged me to purchase a year ago. It is black and red, has a #7 on it, with the name VICK.[QUOTE]

You might want to try using that $60 jersey as bedding for the dogs. Seems a fitting jesture, IMO.

I knew the Vick story would generate an outpouring for the helpless pit bull terrier; a breed conjured up by man many years ago for the sole purpose of killing other dogs for man’s pleasure. This is what they were “designed” to do. This animal wasn’t created by thugs in the ghetto; this was created by English noblemen for their (and our) pleasure. This situation is much more complex than bad person vs. helpless animal. OR maybe it reveals a side of ourselves we don’t want to acknowledge.
I was raised on a farm 50 years ago and my father was an avid coon hunter. We kept about a dozen coon dogs at one time --- redbones, blueticks walkers, and redticks. We also had a family pet --- a collie named “Lub”. The coon hounds were “used” to do a job and the collie was a watch dog and a companion to the family. Two completely different types of animals serving two completely different services. From time to time we would have a litter of puppies – if unwanted or if they were from a mixed breed they were disposed of, usually drowned in a sack weighted down with rocks and tossed in the river. This also happened to dogs and cats “put out” on our country road. If a coon dog didn’t perform he would usually end up lifeless at the base of the tree where he mistakenly treed a house cat or a possum. If a coon dog killed chickens or sheep he was immediately shot on the spot and dragged to the nearest hollow. I have no recollection of specific coon dogs and how they died or were killed but I will never forget when we had to kill our collie, “Lub”.
Times have changed. The two dogs we have now, a registered Jack Russell named “Jaybird” and a Fiest (of sorts) named “Oreo” are part of our family. When their quality of life deteriorates to a point of pain and suffering I will have them euthenized. That has to be better than killing them --- and I will be doing it for them --- not for me. Of course the end result will be the same (I will just feel better about myself).
Personally I would kill a pit bull in a heartbeat --- but for a much different reason than Michael Vick. Gotta go now. I’m trying to catch the armadillo that’s tearing up my yard. If I catch that dude you can rest assured he’ll be “euthenize” with my 12 gauge!
Fungo

PS Don't misunderstand me --- I love animals too! My favorites are ham, hamburger, fried chicken, and deer tenderloin!

I have owned pitbulls and they are like any other dog. A hunting dog has to be taught to hunt. When you buy a coon dog you just dont say there ya go hunt. But a pitbull, doberman or shepard comes along they are mean right out of the box. The pittbulls I have had were as mean as I MADE THEM not mean at all. They would lay at your feet get there bellies rubbed just like any other dog and should be treated the same.
People are funny,oh dont treat Mike bad we dont treat rapist and child abusers that bad. I think we do they are not always famous cases. I agree that some people get off for what ever reason, which is wrong but I keep hearing so if one did they all should. I think % of the bad getting off is lower than those getting punished but it wont be if we have to let him go and him go because someone else fell threw the cracks. There are flaws in everything. As far as hunting, that takes alot of time and hard work. I dont know one guys who hunts up in down mountains just to find one animal to make it suffer. If he was into that sick and twisted thing there are plenty of ways with alot less work involved.

good post fungo

quote:

by blm: I have owned pitbulls and they are like any other dog. A hunting dog has to be taught to hunt. When you buy a coon dog you just dont say there ya go hunt. But a pitbull, doberman or shepard comes along they are mean right out of the box. The pittbulls I have had were as mean as I MADE THEM not mean at all.

wishing you continued luck with your animals ...
as someone who does not understand genetics, you have been very fortunate ...
while environment/training IS a factor in any animal's disposition, you're treading on thin ice and at a huge disadvatage if you don't understand what traits have been re-inforced over decades (sometimes centuries) into your breed & also that "domestic temperment" has not been a desirable trait in several breeds you mention.
the apparent sucess YOUR training has had is COUNTERACTING their "in-bred natural instincts",
not re-inforcing them ..

tick .. tick .. tick