On another board I am on I was astounded when someone posted the following question "Any medical folks on the board who have information about how to care for a 12U arm? Preventive ice, aspirin, running to get the blood flowing after pitching/catching? If ice, within how much time after the game and for how long? Our team has had a few sore arms and injuries so this has been on my mind for my son who often plays catcher. Thanks!"

 

I was floored!  I knew icing eventually happened after years and years of bodily abuse, but at 12?  When did your catcher and/or pitcher begin to ice?

Original Post
Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:

On another board I am on I was astounded when someone posted the following question "Any medical folks on the board who have information about how to care for a 12U arm? Preventive ice, aspirin, running to get the blood flowing after pitching/catching? If ice, within how much time after the game and for how long? Our team has had a few sore arms and injuries so this has been on my mind for my son who often plays catcher. Thanks!"

 

I was floored!  I knew icing eventually happened after years and years of bodily abuse, but at 12?  When did your catcher and/or pitcher begin to ice?

 Though recent studies now say that icing doesn't really help the healing process, and can even be detrimental to the healing process my son still ices. He started when he was about 10. 15 minutes of ice after throwing followed by 15 minutes off followed by another 15 mins of ice. You need the on off process to allow blood flow to return to normal for a while. 

Originally Posted by joes87:
Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:

On another board I am on I was astounded when someone posted the following question "Any medical folks on the board who have information about how to care for a 12U arm? Preventive ice, aspirin, running to get the blood flowing after pitching/catching? If ice, within how much time after the game and for how long? Our team has had a few sore arms and injuries so this has been on my mind for my son who often plays catcher. Thanks!"

 

I was floored!  I knew icing eventually happened after years and years of bodily abuse, but at 12?  When did your catcher and/or pitcher begin to ice?

 Though recent studies now say that icing doesn't really help the healing process, and can even be detrimental to the healing process my son still ices. He started when he was about 10. 15 minutes of ice after throwing followed by 15 minutes off followed by another 15 mins of ice. You need the on off process to allow blood flow to return to normal for a while. 

Joes87, do you feel this regiment has helped him?  Did he ice because he was hurting, or just because you thought it was the thing to do?  What kind of pitches was he throwing at age 10 that would have made you think to ice?

Mine was probably around 10 as well. He threw just FB and CU back then, but he was always on the field throwing. Everyone figured if you were sore, use ice and take an anti inflammatory. No big deal and no idea how it helped. He liked it, getting his arm wrapped...

No harmful effects. 

Originally Posted by roothog66:

Ice masks and relieves the pain and will help with swelling with a bruise. However, it restricts blood flow and decreases the rate of healing. It certainly does make a throbbing arm feel better, but that's about it.

So it's "normal" for a 10 or 12 year old to have a throbbing arm due to throwing? 

Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
So it's "normal" for a 10 or 12 year old to have a throbbing arm due to throwing? 

 

Yes, that's the bigger question to me... why does this 12U team have "a few sore arms and injuries"? And is he asking because his son pitches and catches, or just catches? The old thinking was that ice brings blood to the area, and blood promotes healing of muscles. Also numbs the pain of muscle fatigue. Not a huge deal.

 

But if he's looking for ice to stave off elbow and shoulder injuries, he's looking at the wrong problem.

Originally Posted by MidAtlanticDad:
Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
So it's "normal" for a 10 or 12 year old to have a throbbing arm due to throwing? 

 

Yes, that's the bigger question to me... why does this 12U team have "a few sore arms and injuries"? And is he asking because his son pitches and catches, or just catches? The old thinking was that ice brings blood to the area, and blood promotes healing of muscles. Also numbs the pain of muscle fatigue. Not a huge deal.

 

But if he's looking for ice to stave off elbow and shoulder injuries, he's looking at the wrong problem.

The poster seems to be looking for her/his 12 year old catcher.  My son has caught for 4 years and pitched for 3 years and has never once even hinted at arm pain.  I kind of think of him as being made of rubber, but his coach sits him prior to and after pitching, maybe that's the difference?

Ice is a normal part of being an athlete.  He has had some "rehab" and every time they ice at the end. 

 

When a player doesn't properly condition in the off season and then picks up a ball and throws 100% the first practice, sore arms are the result.  I can't tell you how many teams by me struggled with sore arms in April/May.  Our team never had an issue but the kids where well conditioned to throw. 

What's funny about those "anti-ice" people is that most of them have something for sale. And they often cannot provide references supporting their situation; they just like to tell you that there aren't any sources supporting ice either.

 

Personally I believe it's nuts the way baseball purists have considered icing to be so crucial after pitching or just throwing in general. But I do utilize quite often for a lot of different injuries. We use our Game Ready units a ton at the high school I work at. 10-12 kids a day easily for this or that injury. Especially post-op situations the Game Ready units are life-savers. These provide both cold and compression. 

I think the OP was not so much about icing or heat to promote healing as much as the OP was appalled that any 11 year old could have used his body in such a way as to require therapy of any kind from use of their arm. I am with TRhit on this one. "Kids today do not throw enough"!

My sons would throw with each other on a daily basis, including long toss, a couple times a week. Their arms did get tired, and back then it was all about ice, no controversy back then. But the point is they threw and they had muscle pain, maybe tendon pain, who knows. They iced, rested then threw again. My son at 25 still has a strong arm that rarely aches.

He threw a lot every day or so from the time he was 7 or 8.

It is what it is, a ball player will use his arm and will experience discomfort, even at 11.

My son has iced (rarely) on and off over the years. I think the first time we iced him was 13U after he threw a lot of pitches in a semifinal game. Anymore, he prefers to rest it and ease back into throwing rather than ice. I asked one of THE premier college pitching coaches in the country this past summer about the need to ice etc and when/how often? He basically said, he doesn't think there is one thing that remedies every player. Mentioned how icing immediately chills the muscles/tendons/ligaments that are hot from use and that quick contraction can't be good long term. Also said, "I don't take aspirin if i don't have a headache." Not what i expected but it sort of helped me deal with my son's methodology of not really using it over the years. If it works for your son and relieves discomfort/adds to his confidence and performance, then go right ahead.

Originally Posted by floridafan:

I think the OP was not so much about icing or heat to promote healing as much as the OP was appalled that any 11 year old could have used his body in such a way as to require therapy of any kind from use of their arm. I am with TRhit on this one. "Kids today do not throw enough"!

My sons would throw with each other on a daily basis, including long toss, a couple times a week. Their arms did get tired, and back then it was all about ice, no controversy back then. But the point is they threw and they had muscle pain, maybe tendon pain, who knows. They iced, rested then threw again. My son at 25 still has a strong arm that rarely aches.

He threw a lot every day or so from the time he was 7 or 8.

It is what it is, a ball player will use his arm and will experience discomfort, even at 11.

Yes, appalled that an 11 year old needs ice is pretty much how I feel.  If you are properly warmed up, and properly conditioning 10, 11, 12 year olds...they really are like rubber they have to be doing something their body just isn't ready for for them to hurt like that. 

 

The 10 year old that plays a different sport in fall and winter and picks up a baseball in February and tries to throw with all his might is doing something wrong, and the coach shouldn't allow full throws without a ramp up to that...maybe long tossing for one practice, followed by short throws....etc...not day one "Let's see if you remember how to pitch throw it hard!"...isn't the coach just begging for an injury and a sore arm?

 

There seems to be this theory out there that the more you throw, the sorer you get, the better you must be conditioning your arm....what ever happened to listening to your body so you don't hurt yourself?

Originally Posted by floridafan:

I think the OP was not so much about icing or heat to promote healing as much as the OP was appalled that any 11 year old could have used his body in such a way as to require therapy of any kind from use of their arm. I am with TRhit on this one. "Kids today do not throw enough"!

You may enjoy this from Kyle Boddy (note he is referring to age 13+):

 

http://www.drivelinebaseball.c...aining-is-the-devil/

 

Originally Posted by MidAtlanticDad:
Originally Posted by floridafan:

I think the OP was not so much about icing or heat to promote healing as much as the OP was appalled that any 11 year old could have used his body in such a way as to require therapy of any kind from use of their arm. I am with TRhit on this one. "Kids today do not throw enough"!

You may enjoy this from Kyle Boddy (note he is referring to age 13+):

 

http://www.drivelinebaseball.c...aining-is-the-devil/

 

I read the article, it was informative about how kids don't throw enough...but it didn't mention kids feeling sore.  In fact it backed up both the assertion of floridafan that kids don't throw enough, and my assertion that the soreness is coming from lack of use and a pitcher should ramp up, or maintain the level of throwing, not try to go full out on day one of practice after 4 months.

I've heard all kinds of stories about pitchers over the years.  I hear of pitchers that never get sore and I, personally have a hard time believing that.  I'm sure they're not lying, but I have yet to personally meet a pitcher who doesn't get sore after a relatively long outing.

 

Keep in mind.  There is a difference between being sore and feeling pain.  My son has been pitching since he was 8.  I don't remember about being sore during the 8-11 years, but I know that he would get sore at 12+.  He still will get sore if he pushes it.  My son knows when he is just sore from throwing a lot and when he is feeling some kind of pain, or discomfort other than being sore.  

 

My son played rec league until he was 12.  Only played maybe 25-30 games a year between spring and fall.  However, he was ALWAYS throwing something.  Whether it was tennis balls at the garage door, superballs at the walls in the house, rocks into the lake, whiffle ball games, whatever.  Starting at 12 he played travel and if he was up on his pitches, he would get sore.  I'll still talk to him and if he goes over 85 or 90 pitches, he'll get sore.  Once in a while he ices, but has never really liked to do it much.  Fortunately (knock on wood), he hasn't had any major injuries (ie. surgery) and is still pitching at 21 years old.  

 

I just wanted to make the point that there is a BIG difference between getting sore after an outing and feeling pain after an outing.  I think sore is OK, pain is NOT.

Originally Posted by MidAtlanticDad:
Originally Posted by floridafan:

I think the OP was not so much about icing or heat to promote healing as much as the OP was appalled that any 11 year old could have used his body in such a way as to require therapy of any kind from use of their arm. I am with TRhit on this one. "Kids today do not throw enough"!

You may enjoy this from Kyle Boddy (note he is referring to age 13+):

 

http://www.drivelinebaseball.c...aining-is-the-devil/

 

Nice stuff by Kyle.

I like him, he makes it very simple and easy to understand how it works.

 

Yup, there are plenty of youth pitcher,catchers who have very painful/sore arms, I think that was my point in pitching injury topic. Most of it is overuse and poor mechanics. Being sore is NOT UNUSUAL, having pain is.  The problem is that parents dont know the difference so they allow their players a few days rest and then back on the mound without ever figuring out what is going on. They think it will go away with some ice and some otc drugs.

 

Mine started pitching at an early age and they iced back then all of the time. I am not sure exactly of the benefits, but he iced all of his life until he stopped he developed some shoulder issues. My opinion.

Also giving a young child medication is not a good practice.  Save that for someday when he really needs it.

Kevin O'Sullivan told me once that he lets pitchers do what makes them comfortable. I guess that is the key, everyone is different.

 

CaCO3girl,

If you are getting this info from a post, how do you know if the players throws enough

or not?

So you are saying that pitching in a game one day and then catching the next or playing ss is good. Its not about how much you throw or dont throw but the preparation and the frequency.

Don't confuse tossing with throwing. And don't confuse a loose arm by describing it as rubber. Not all kids have loose arms.

I don't know if this relates to icing arms or shoulders in baseball but a few years ago at about age 45 I severely sprained my ankle playing basketball to the point I had to be carried to a car for my wife to take me home. I had been playing for about an hour so I had a good workout.

The HS basketball coach who was there told me to submerge my ankle in ice for 10-15 minutes immediately upon arriving home in about 4 sessions with about 10 minutes between sessions.  I did this that evening and then next morning. 

I was playing within a week and a half with no pain. . 

You always use ice after a sprain. RICE..rest, ice, compression then elevation.
In the case in the OP, if there is soreness or pain than ice may be helpful. For  young pitchers that throw too hard, their first few outings should be closely monitored by the coach as to not over do it.  Thats only if he knows what he is doing.
FWIW I was referring to lions injury (RICE). 
I cant endorse if it would or would not help a 12 year old's severe arm pain.  I have always found ice helps reduce inflammation but should be applied asap after an injury.
Originally Posted by TPM:
Originally Posted by MidAtlanticDad:
Originally Posted by floridafan:

I think the OP was not so much about icing or heat to promote healing as much as the OP was appalled that any 11 year old could have used his body in such a way as to require therapy of any kind from use of their arm. I am with TRhit on this one. "Kids today do not throw enough"!

You may enjoy this from Kyle Boddy (note he is referring to age 13+):

 

http://www.drivelinebaseball.c...aining-is-the-devil/

 

Nice stuff by Kyle.

I like him, he makes it very simple and easy to understand how it works.

 

Yup, there are plenty of youth pitcher,catchers who have very painful/sore arms, I think that was my point in pitching injury topic. Most of it is overuse and poor mechanics. Being sore is NOT UNUSUAL, having pain is.  The problem is that parents dont know the difference so they allow their players a few days rest and then back on the mound without ever figuring out what is going on. They think it will go away with some ice and some otc drugs.

 

Mine started pitching at an early age and they iced back then all of the time. I am not sure exactly of the benefits, but he iced all of his life until he stopped he developed some shoulder issues. My opinion.

Also giving a young child medication is not a good practice.  Save that for someday when he really needs it.

Kevin O'Sullivan told me once that he lets pitchers do what makes them comfortable. I guess that is the key, everyone is different.

 

CaCO3girl,

If you are getting this info from a post, how do you know if the players throws enough

or not?

So you are saying that pitching in a game one day and then catching the next or playing ss is good. Its not about how much you throw or dont throw but the preparation and the frequency.

Don't confuse tossing with throwing. And don't confuse a loose arm by describing it as rubber. Not all kids have loose arms.

I have no idea if the player in the post throws enough or not...but at age 12 I can only assume that he is either not conditioned or not doing it right to be sore and needing ice.

 

As for my rubber comment, I was referring to all youth in general. Their bodies bounce back far quicker when they are young, and things that would land an adult in the hospital for weeks they just pop up and say "I'm okay!"  Of course children can get broken arms and they can get hurt, but having multiple 12 year old's on one team asking for ice because their arm hurts/is sore...doesn't sound normal to me.

Nothing wrong with ice, but you should combine it with heat (unless you have an injury like a sprain or bruising).  The normal body reaction to healing from injury is to swell and immobilize.  Taking anti inflammatory medicine, may help with pain and keep swelling down a bit, but inhibits the natural healing process from starting.  Ice will restrict blood flow, heat will promote blood flow.  Restriction squeezes out waste, heat brings in nutrients.  A combination of the two will assist in recovery. If you have too much swelling from a sprain, blood flow can be naturally restricted and the healing process can take longer.  That is why with sprains, you should ice immediately, take anti-inflammatory medicine, and immobilize the joint artificially.  Once the swelling has stopped, you treat with ice and heat to speed the healing process.  If your child has arm or shoulder pain, he should run after his games and treat with ice / heat, no anti inflammatory medicines.  If he is still sore for his next game, he should not throw.  Video his mechanics and have someone review.

Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
 

I have no idea if the player in the post throws enough or not...but at age 12 I can only assume that he is either not conditioned or not doing it right to be sore and needing ice.

 

As for my rubber comment, I was referring to all youth in general. Their bodies bounce back far quicker when they are young, and things that would land an adult in the hospital for weeks they just pop up and say "I'm okay!"  Of course children can get broken arms and they can get hurt, but having multiple 12 year old's on one team asking for ice because their arm hurts/is sore...doesn't sound normal to me.

I am not sure how one can assume anything without knowing the player but this is why I posted about injuries. Parents do your due diligence when you have control over the situation. I agree NO 12 year old should be experiencing any type of pain in any sport, but they do, because parents just cant have them not be in the game, because they are afraid they will miss out on something.

My daughters BF son age 12, had bad knee issues and not able to do anything for 2 months. Dad just thought playing football and lax at the same time was a good thing. It was 5 -6 days a week of either games or practice.  Because he has growth issues to begin with, he ended up with a serious issue. 

Not agreeing that all kids bounce back from injuries.  Lots of it depends on growth issues, those injuries showing up later many times are from youth issues never properly addressed.

 

Originally Posted by roothog66:

Here's another option:

http://marcpro.com/

 

It's not for everybody. For beginners, it's pricey. However, we just started using on for my son and he has been absolutely amazed at the effects. Disclaimer' he REALLY didn't want to use it at first. I mean REALLY didn't want to use it. But, after committing $600 I wasn't taking no for an answer.

Do people really think that things like this make better athletes?

Originally Posted by TPM:
Originally Posted by roothog66:

Here's another option:

http://marcpro.com/

 

It's not for everybody. For beginners, it's pricey. However, we just started using on for my son and he has been absolutely amazed at the effects. Disclaimer' he REALLY didn't want to use it at first. I mean REALLY didn't want to use it. But, after committing $600 I wasn't taking no for an answer.

Do people really think that things like this make better athletes?

I balked at a glove that cost more than $100, I don't think I am ready to get into gadgets like this yet.

Originally Posted by TPM:
Originally Posted by roothog66:

Here's another option:

http://marcpro.com/

 

It's not for everybody. For beginners, it's pricey. However, we just started using on for my son and he has been absolutely amazed at the effects. Disclaimer' he REALLY didn't want to use it at first. I mean REALLY didn't want to use it. But, after committing $600 I wasn't taking no for an answer.

Do people really think that things like this make better athletes?


This doesn't make you a better athlete, that's not its purpose. It's purpose is for more efficient and quicker recovery times which lead to lesser risk of injury. It's endorsed by a number of reputable sources including Kyle.

Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
Originally Posted by TPM:
Originally Posted by roothog66:

Here's another option:

http://marcpro.com/

 

It's not for everybody. For beginners, it's pricey. However, we just started using on for my son and he has been absolutely amazed at the effects. Disclaimer' he REALLY didn't want to use it at first. I mean REALLY didn't want to use it. But, after committing $600 I wasn't taking no for an answer.

Do people really think that things like this make better athletes?

I balked at a glove that cost more than $100, I don't think I am ready to get into gadgets like this yet.


Honestly, do some research on it. If it does even a quarter of what people claim, it's a long term investment with a big upside.

Originally Posted by TPM:
Originally Posted by roothog66:

Here's another option:

http://marcpro.com/

 

It's not for everybody. For beginners, it's pricey. However, we just started using on for my son and he has been absolutely amazed at the effects. Disclaimer' he REALLY didn't want to use it at first. I mean REALLY didn't want to use it. But, after committing $600 I wasn't taking no for an answer.

Do people really think that things like this make better athletes?

Healthier athletes? Yes. Well, maybe (I took the risk but haven't had it long enough to draw a conclusion). Do you really think it can't help?

Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
Originally Posted by TPM:
Originally Posted by roothog66:

Here's another option:

http://marcpro.com/

 

It's not for everybody. For beginners, it's pricey. However, we just started using on for my son and he has been absolutely amazed at the effects. Disclaimer' he REALLY didn't want to use it at first. I mean REALLY didn't want to use it. But, after committing $600 I wasn't taking no for an answer.

Do people really think that things like this make better athletes?

I balked at a glove that cost more than $100, I don't think I am ready to get into gadgets like this yet.

Its an electric stim machine and you can buy one for less than 100 dollars. They use them for therapy upon doctors or trainers orders and yes many do after pitching especially when you throw mid to high 90's and sore afterwards.

 

But someone came up with the idea to make it look fancier so you would think it does more than just a plain black one!

 

Your 12 year old doesnt need expensive things make you a better athlete! Don't drink the koolaid!!!

 

 

Originally Posted by TPM:
Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
Originally Posted by TPM:
Originally Posted by roothog66:

Here's another option:

http://marcpro.com/

 

It's not for everybody. For beginners, it's pricey. However, we just started using on for my son and he has been absolutely amazed at the effects. Disclaimer' he REALLY didn't want to use it at first. I mean REALLY didn't want to use it. But, after committing $600 I wasn't taking no for an answer.

Do people really think that things like this make better athletes?

I balked at a glove that cost more than $100, I don't think I am ready to get into gadgets like this yet.

Its an electric stim machine and you can buy one for less than 100 dollars. They use them for therapy upon doctors or trainers orders and yes many do after pitching especially when you throw mid to high 90's and sore afterwards.

 

But someone came up with the idea to make it look fancier so you would think it does more than just a plain black one!

 

Your 12 year old doesnt need expensive things make you a better athlete! Don't drink the koolaid!!!

 

 

The glove wasn't much over $100 :-)  Other kids have $300+ gloves.  Still keeping my head down and NOT drinking the kool-aid...much....but the old glove did break.

Originally Posted by TPM:
Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
Originally Posted by TPM:
Originally Posted by roothog66:

Here's another option:

http://marcpro.com/

 

It's not for everybody. For beginners, it's pricey. However, we just started using on for my son and he has been absolutely amazed at the effects. Disclaimer' he REALLY didn't want to use it at first. I mean REALLY didn't want to use it. But, after committing $600 I wasn't taking no for an answer.

Do people really think that things like this make better athletes?

I balked at a glove that cost more than $100, I don't think I am ready to get into gadgets like this yet.

Its an electric stim machine and you can buy one for less than 100 dollars. They use them for therapy upon doctors or trainers orders and yes many do after pitching especially when you throw mid to high 90's and sore afterwards.

 

But someone came up with the idea to make it look fancier so you would think it does more than just a plain black one!

 

Your 12 year old doesnt need expensive things make you a better athlete! Don't drink the koolaid!!!

 

 


Wrong. You're describing a TENS machine which helps for pain, but does nothing for decreasing the effects of muscle fatigue or creating bloodflow. You probably shouldn'd comment on things you don't know anything about.

Originally Posted by TPM:
Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
Originally Posted by TPM:
Originally Posted by roothog66:

Here's another option:

http://marcpro.com/

 

It's not for everybody. For beginners, it's pricey. However, we just started using on for my son and he has been absolutely amazed at the effects. Disclaimer' he REALLY didn't want to use it at first. I mean REALLY didn't want to use it. But, after committing $600 I wasn't taking no for an answer.

Do people really think that things like this make better athletes?

I balked at a glove that cost more than $100, I don't think I am ready to get into gadgets like this yet.

Its an electric stim machine and you can buy one for less than 100 dollars. They use them for therapy upon doctors or trainers orders and yes many do after pitching especially when you throw mid to high 90's and sore afterwards.

 

But someone came up with the idea to make it look fancier so you would think it does more than just a plain black one!

 

Your 12 year old doesnt need expensive things make you a better athlete! Don't drink the koolaid!!!

 

 


And my kid isn't 12.

Originally Posted by roothog66:
Originally Posted by TPM:
Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
Originally Posted by TPM:
Originally Posted by roothog66:

Here's another option:

http://marcpro.com/

 

It's not for everybody. For beginners, it's pricey. However, we just started using on for my son and he has been absolutely amazed at the effects. Disclaimer' he REALLY didn't want to use it at first. I mean REALLY didn't want to use it. But, after committing $600 I wasn't taking no for an answer.

Do people really think that things like this make better athletes?

I balked at a glove that cost more than $100, I don't think I am ready to get into gadgets like this yet.

Its an electric stim machine and you can buy one for less than 100 dollars. They use them for therapy upon doctors or trainers orders and yes many do after pitching especially when you throw mid to high 90's and sore afterwards.

 

But someone came up with the idea to make it look fancier so you would think it does more than just a plain black one!

 

Your 12 year old doesnt need expensive things make you a better athlete! Don't drink the koolaid!!!

 

 


Wrong. You're describing a TENS machine which helps for pain, but does nothing for decreasing the effects of muscle fatigue or creating bloodflow. You probably shouldn'd comment on things you don't know anything about.


In fact, note that it is used by 28 MLB teams and endorsed publicly by many of them. Sorry about the last comment.

Originally Posted by roothog66:
Originally Posted by roothog66:
Originally Posted by TPM:
Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
Originally Posted by TPM:
Originally Posted by roothog66:

Here's another option:

http://marcpro.com/

 

It's not for everybody. For beginners, it's pricey. However, we just started using on for my son and he has been absolutely amazed at the effects. Disclaimer' he REALLY didn't want to use it at first. I mean REALLY didn't want to use it. But, after committing $600 I wasn't taking no for an answer.

Do people really think that things like this make better athletes?

I balked at a glove that cost more than $100, I don't think I am ready to get into gadgets like this yet.

Its an electric stim machine and you can buy one for less than 100 dollars. They use them for therapy upon doctors or trainers orders and yes many do after pitching especially when you throw mid to high 90's and sore afterwards.

 

But someone came up with the idea to make it look fancier so you would think it does more than just a plain black one!

 

Your 12 year old doesnt need expensive things make you a better athlete! Don't drink the koolaid!!!

 

 


Wrong. You're describing a TENS machine which helps for pain, but does nothing for decreasing the effects of muscle fatigue or creating bloodflow. You probably shouldn'd comment on things you don't know anything about.


In fact, note that it is used by 28 MLB teams and endorsed publicly by many of them. Sorry about the last comment.

Endorsed? Used?  Not! Because they endorse it means you should use it? They endorse lots of products!! They get paid to do that!!!!

Sorry, its a fancy TENS machine!!

 

Originally Posted by TPM:
Originally Posted by roothog66:
Originally Posted by roothog66:
Originally Posted by TPM:
Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
Originally Posted by TPM:
Originally Posted by roothog66:

Here's another option:

http://marcpro.com/

 

It's not for everybody. For beginners, it's pricey. However, we just started using on for my son and he has been absolutely amazed at the effects. Disclaimer' he REALLY didn't want to use it at first. I mean REALLY didn't want to use it. But, after committing $600 I wasn't taking no for an answer.

Do people really think that things like this make better athletes?

I balked at a glove that cost more than $100, I don't think I am ready to get into gadgets like this yet.

Its an electric stim machine and you can buy one for less than 100 dollars. They use them for therapy upon doctors or trainers orders and yes many do after pitching especially when you throw mid to high 90's and sore afterwards.

 

But someone came up with the idea to make it look fancier so you would think it does more than just a plain black one!

 

Your 12 year old doesnt need expensive things make you a better athlete! Don't drink the koolaid!!!

 

 


Wrong. You're describing a TENS machine which helps for pain, but does nothing for decreasing the effects of muscle fatigue or creating bloodflow. You probably shouldn'd comment on things you don't know anything about.


In fact, note that it is used by 28 MLB teams and endorsed publicly by many of them. Sorry about the last comment.

Endorsed? Used?  Not!

Sorry, its a fancy TENS machine!!

 

http://rightdoorproductions.com/portfolio/marc-pro/

 

Detroit Tigers for one, discuss its use here. Do you even investigate anything before you post? I'll be honest. You provide some good information in about 10% of your posts, but I get a little weary of your "holier-than-thou attitude" and the idea based on the success of your son that there are no experiences or knowledge beyond what's in your own world. I, personally don't post info like I have here (and certainly don't spend my money) without doing my research and talking with people who have experience with the product. Before buying this, I communicated with Kyle at Driveline, I spoke to several professional cyclists. You, on the other hand, just spouted out an ignorant opinion without any research or fact checking. But, that's what you get on the internet, Iguess.

There is controversy as to whether it really does do what they claim it does. How do you know what I have read and what I havent? Will this machine make your player better or will he do better than the player that uses ice?  Are we to be impressed because you bought a 600 machine. Lets see what the future holds, will he stay healthy using this product?  

 

How successful do you suppose son was, maybe if the Tigers thought this really would help their pitchers they would have used it down the farm? or other teams?  I mean its only 600 dollars, these guys can afford dozens of them for every team they have, and would not pay as much as you did, right?  Do you know if these machines are in every locker room?  Please let us know.

 

 

You spoke to cyclists?  How many pitchers did you speak with?

 

 

 

 

 

Do you think that the Tigers wont have as many pitchers struggle this season with the use of that? Or any other team?

Maybe its endorsed but prove to us it helps pitchers not get injured or recover faster.

 

Come on, we all know that you get it for free when you endorse a product!!!  Its the poor athlete who has to pay for it!!!

Root,

This is a HSBBW and the topic was about 12 year old pitchers with arm issues. I dont think the 12 year old needs that high tech stuff, at this time.  Not sure why you actually brought it up, other than you wanted us to know that you spent 600 on something after talking to cyclists?

 

Ice vs no ice, this discussion was not about professional athletes doing all sorts of things to keep their job.

 

Do college programs use this device?  I do believe that would be of more interest than what the Detroit Tigers do for their staff they pay millions of dollars to.

 

Do you get that?

 

Originally Posted by TPM:

There is controversy as to whether it really does do what they claim it does. How do you know what I have read and what I havent? Will this machine make your player better or will he do better than the player that uses ice?  Are we to be impressed because you bought a 600 machine. Lets see what the future holds, will he stay healthy using this product?  

 

How successful do you suppose son was, maybe if the Tigers thought this really would help their pitchers they would have used it down the farm? or other teams?  I mean its only 600 dollars, these guys can afford dozens of them for every team they have, and would not pay as much as you did, right?  Do you know if these machines are in every locker room?  Please let us know.

 

 

You spoke to cyclists?  How many pitchers did you speak with?

 

 

 

 

 

Because you have shown a total ignorance of the subject. Driveline, for example uses it for their pitchers and have been impressed with the results and they are just one of many organizations over a range of sports. Where is the controversy? When researching it, I couldn't find a single negative or ambiguous comment from those who have used it. Are you impressed that I spent $600? No. Am I supposed to be impressed that your son has pro experience? You lord it over us mere mortals often enough. Does it work better than ice - definitely. Actually, the Houston Astros use it between innings for their pitchers. The Toronto Blue Jays use it for all of their pitchers. As do nine NBA teams and a dozen NFL teams. Additionally, I very much trust the advise and experience of Kyle Boddy.

 

Really, your entire argument seems to be that your son (again we get to hear of your wisdom imputed through your son) doesn't use it, so it's useless.

 

My question is, knowing nothing about it, why did you feel the need to immediately throw out a snarky remark?

Originally Posted by TPM:

Root,

This is a HSBBW and the topic was about 12 year old pitchers with arm issues. I dont think the 12 year old needs that high tech stuff, at this time.  Not sure why you actually brought it up, other than you wanted us to know that you spent 600 on something after talking to cyclists?

 

Ice vs no ice, this discussion was not about professional athletes doing all sorts of things to keep their job.

 

Do college programs use this device?  I do believe that would be of more interest than what the Detroit Tigers do for their staff they pay millions of dollars to.

 

Do you get that?

 

The issue is about the benefits of icing at any age.Do you get that? From Driveline and Kyle :

"Many MLB teams and Division-I colleges use this product and I’ve gotten a deluge of testimonials from people I highly trust, including Dave Coggin of PFA Fitness down in LA."I don't know.Maybe you don't find Driveline to be credible.

The only D1 I can say for sure uses it is Temple.

 

I am not disputing that these people use recommend and endorse this product. 
This has nothing to do with son so dont go there, you already brought him into this and that only makes you look bad. 

Please supply reviews of ML baseball players that have used this product and have had positive results.  I cant seem to find any.
Let me get this straight you were recommending this product for a 12 year old or bragging about how much you spend?

I know Trevor Bauer uses the marc pro and is a very big proponent:

https://twitter.com/baueroutag...s/519971025946439680

 

I know that Kyle's pro, college and HS pitchers use the Marc Pro and he's had great measurable results with it: http://www.drivelinebaseball.c...oducts/arm-recovery/

 

I've used it with my pitchers (disclosure: I won mine, and didn't buy it), and they all love it.  Whether it's a placebo effect, I can't be sure.  If the price is too much, I've also used the Stick on pitchers' Flexor Pronator mass [see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15466738 ].  Before getting the Marc Pro, we used this:   http://www.amazon.com/truMedic...f=zg_bs_8627079011_1  While not as nearly good as the Marc Pro, for the price, it's a good deal and seemed to help.

 

 

Don't want to engage in any battle, however I will somewhat reluctantly give my .02 cents in case anyone deems my opinion / contribution of any value.

 

As it relates to ice - I am not a fan, there is way too many reviews and articles (many posted here already) that indicate no value unless of actual injury, and may (likely) inhibits recovery as a post throwing protocol.

 

Marc Pro (sp?) - I spent time with Kyle (Driveline) in Nashville recently, and have read or studied the device, and do believe there is some definite benefit of using, specifically for post throwing recovery / and or rehab. 

 

As any of this relates to 12 year old, I am not sure of any value....if a 12 year old is needing post throwing arm care, or experiencing arm soreness, I think something else is in play here.  Most studies show that micro tears, or potential danger to ligaments, or tendons exist primarily for those throwing in excess of 80 MPH or more, and the harder you throw the higher the risk.

 

Gonna add one more comment as it relates to icing. 

 

Baseball, unlike the other major sports is normally "last" to embrace technology, and abandon activities that no longer are valid.  There was recently a thread where an ex-MLB pitcher was advocating long distance running, which most recognize is not the best mode of conditioning a pitcher. 

 

It is almost sad to watch "pitching / hitting instructors" give lessons with verbal cues, and drills that are proven contradictory to their effectiveness.  Why?  Because their coach "said so", and their coach before them "said so", so it must be true.  Baseball is one of the most traditional games, with a lot of nostalgia that is not as prevalent in other sports, which makes it the greatest game on earth, however also makes it difficult for some to realize that what we did 100 years ago, may not be what we should be teaching today.

If anyone bothered to read I did say son stopped using ice a while ago. He does series of excercises given to him from ortho rehab. I did express my opinion of him not using ice. He would ice if in pain.   He also throws hard.  Thats the key here...throwing hard.  Saying because son doesn't use it that I think its no good is just plane ridiculous. You Mr. Roothog, have actually no clue what son has or hasn't done for recovery, after surgery, for injury, etc, because I questioned it has NOTHING to do with what he has or hasn't done.  


Once again this was about  12 year olds using ice because they are sore or in pain.  Just not sure how marc pro (for 600$) would solve that problem.  This got a bit off topic and I take blame for some of that.

Good points made above by back foot slider. As there are continuously new methods coming out for training and conditioning, there are many who still go back to old school. It works for some, not for others. Its like running or no running after you pitch. This is a message board so you will get a variety of opinions. I tried real hard to find product recommendation on sites it was sold but couldnt.  Its the pitcher who uses it not affiliated with any organization who has to pay for it that I want to see info from.

 

Recommending an item here for 600 dollars when people cant afford to send their players to showcases or campus visits is just plain a kick in the butt for many. Until you can prove that this makes the pitcher a better pitcher, that he has sustained no injury, what was the point in recommending a product that you said you are not even sure it works?

thanks mcCloven for the lessor expensive machine.

 

Last season, the Tigers organizations pitchers sustained lots of injuries that kept Brad Ausmus scrambling everyday for replacements, had to go deep into the farm.  

 

BTW, they have a pretty good pitching program, son actually liked it much more than he did with the Cardinals. However, the bottom line is that nothing will ever prevent injury, unless you stop pitching.

I will remain unconvinced about the beneficial results of the product until more than one ML pitcher or amateur pitcher speaks on the benefits and how it has helped them to recover or sustain injury.  No digs on anyone but when one partners and sells a product or gets it complimentary..of course they will endorse it...no offense to Kyle, you are a good guy and you should not have been brought into this.

 

JMO

 

 

My baseball players here, I'm told, love the Game Ready units. Fortunately we have two of them and we could actually have 4 players hooked up at one time. We also have expensive stim units and all sorts of things. No Marc Pro and quite frankly I don't see one in my future either. Not worth the money to me..

I didn't recommend the Marc Pro, though I might after I've given my son and my students a chance to use it for awhile. I simply mentioned that it is an alternative many in the profession, including myself, are using. That was met with the following snarky comment:

 

"Do people really think that things like this make better athletes?"

 

I didn't "bring Kyle into it." I simply pointed out, as a reference, that I wasn't out in the dark here. If TPM wants to ask the above question, she's going to get an answer. That answer is yes and comes from Kyle and Driveline, Steve Ellis, Dick Mills, Kevin Rand (head trainer for the Detroit Tigers), Kenny Leverich of Crossfit, Gary Vitti (head athletic trainer for the Los Angeles Lakers), Dwight Stansbury (Head ahletic trainer for Temple baseball), and on and on. Kyle runs a business. I don't use Kyle as a reference point because he's a poster on here. I use him as a reference point because he's a qualified professional most on this board would be familiar with. You asked a rhetorical question with the purpose of diminishing another's opinion (not a new move for you, by the way). I answered your question. Yes. All of the above as well as 26 mlb teams, 9 NBA teams and several NFL teams think this is a far better alternative than icing for helping an athlete. You, however, having very little knowledge on the subject decided to demean my opinion. You might have questioned its price. You might have questioned its effectiveness. There are many things you might have intelligently and rightly questioned. Then we could have had a real conversation on them pros and cons of this alternative to icing. However, you chose a different path. Typical. If you would ever like to have that discussion, please do so. Bring some research, bring some references and opinions for backup that differ from what I've given you. No problem. There are, in fact, others here who would also gladly give you their own experiences and knowledge of the subject. I welcome such a discussion.

And, the concept is that the ligaments "break" because of the muscles.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17936028

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15466738

 

http://www.drivelinebaseball.c...oducts/arm-recovery/

 

http://www.drivelinebaseball.c...s-and-wrist-weights/

 

If the muscles aren't working correctly they put more strain on the ligament.  The Marc Pro and other techniques (wrist weights, etc.) in combination help the muscles recover, strengthen and work correctly.  

 

See also:  

 http://drchrismckenzie.com/bas...eleration-exercises/

 

When you lack eccentric strength and you continue to throw hard, abusing those deceleration muscles—The weakest link usually hurts, AND (this is important!) it puts more strain on the next segment down the chain causing risk of significant damage.

 

The stages look like this:

 

1. Muscle soreness/fatigue that goes away quickly in 2-12hours

 

2. Muscle soreness/fatigue that takes longer, >12-48hrs to go away.  **Also known as DEAD ARM**

 

3. Muscle soreness/fatigue turns into muscle and joint pain  (Low and mid back pain, shoulder impingement syndrome(s), Little league shoulder syndrome, small SLAP and labral tears, elbow tendonitis, UCL/Tommy John pain, elbow stress fractures, and valgus overload syndrome to name a few)

 

4. Muscle and Joint failure:  Hamstring strains, abdominal strains,  rotator cuff tears, large SLAP and labral tears, and Tommy John injuries.

Ok so here are my last thoughts on this.

First I didnt realize that there are 32 teams in MLB.  But I guess when you get your info from the internet it is what it is.

Second, I agree that most people that are anti something always have a product to sell. 

Third, fitness is a huge business. HUGE!

Fourth, agree tendons and ligaments are not the same.

Fifth, once again this topic was not directed about what professionals do, but rather about 12 year olds having arm issues. Does anyone know if this product is recommended for that age group?  I do believe that you, roothog were the one who posted the info against anti icing. I know, I know you were recommending another alternative (for 12 year olds).  

Sixth, do yo get where I am coming from Mr roothog?  Probably not but I dont care.

 

 

I searched the internet and have not come up with any pitcher saying that this product says what the people who endorse or sell it say it does.  This is not to say that I do not believe that the people who endorse or sell or have their clients use these type of products are not good at what they do. They are all probably very good at what they do, for sure.  On the sites that sell the product (that are not training sites  associated with the product) there are no reviews by people who have bought the product, that I have found.

 

I am sorry that you do not understand what I am talking about, I guess I am not as educated as you, Mr Roothog to get my point across.  All I asked was could anyone come up with one ML pitcher who feels that  it is what it is advertised to be, or it is not. Or that they did recover quicker and last season had no issues with their arm? Can anyone do that?  

 

I found this though, but since you are so much more proficient in the use of the internet maybe you could come up with something else. Read through. maybe you can help this guy out Root!

 

http://www.mobilitywod.com/for...ks-vs-a-tens-unit/p1

 

And kudos to McCloven who seems to be able to provide much more meaningful discussion on injuries, which essentially this topic is referring to,  that are occurring at younger and younger ages.

 

Ice or no ice.

 

 

I think this Marc Pro thing is just an e-stim machine.  I'm not sure, I haven't done much research, but if that is what it is, I got one when I was playing for like $50.  There are many brands out there.   A lot of pitchers when I was playing would use the e-stim under the ice.  I just liked it by itself.  It felt like a massage which I liked when I was sore.  I shot this vid in early 2010.  Excuse the camera quality as I was still learning how to make nice videos.  There is an affiliate link in the video but I don't mean to post it to get you to buy one, just thought it was relevant to the topic and would help some of you out.  Plus there are probably newer models available.  So do your research and consult a doctor before using one.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWDTRUohfmo

Originally Posted by ygpbb321:

I think this Marc Pro thing is just an e-stim machine.  I'm not sure, I haven't done much research, but if that is what it is, I got one when I was playing for like $50.  There are many brands out there.   A lot of pitchers when I was playing would use the e-stim under the ice.  I just liked it by itself.  It felt like a massage which I liked when I was sore.  I shot this vid in early 2010.  Excuse the camera quality as I was still learning how to make nice videos.  There is an affiliate link in the video but I don't mean to post it to get you to buy one, just thought it was relevant to the topic and would help some of you out.  Plus there are probably newer models available.  So do your research and consult a doctor before using one.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWDTRUohfmo


What you are describing is a TENS unit. An e-stim unit is used to stimulate the nerves. This blocks pain and has it's uses for pitchers, but the Marc Pro is an ems unit which stimulated muscles, not nerves. For example, someone with back pain would get a lot of use out of a TENS unit, but wouldn't have much use for an ems unit. For a pitcher, on the other hand, we're actually looking to increase bloodflow through the muscle and to apply controlled retraction and expantion of the muscle.Here's a link to a TENS unit review site which explains the difference.

 

http://www.tensunitreviews.net/tens-vs-ems/

Out of curiosity, I looked into this a little.  The best description I found in my limited research came from a company that sells all kinds of TENS and muscle stimulation units.  I think this Marc Pro is basically an Electronic Muscle Stimulator (EMS).  There is a difference between the TENS and EMS:

 

How to Choose Between an Electronic Muscle Stimulator and TENS Unit

Electronic Muscle Stimulators technically are TENS (Transcutaneous Electrical Nerve Stimulators) devices, the difference being which nerves in your body are stimulated during electrotherapy. EMS Machines are designed to stimulate muscle motor nerves while TENS devices stimulate sensory nerve endings. Both types of treatment work by generating electrical impulses that stimulate nerves through the skin causing muscles controlled by those nerves to react by contracting.

 

With that being said, there are WAY cheaper ways to go than spending $600 on an EMS.  Here is a link to a combination TENS/EMS unit for $65 on this site:

 

http://www.activeforever.com/b...s-and-ems-combo-unit

 

I don't think you could go wrong with this.

somehow it looks like i wandered into an old discussion,  as i was wondering what i just bought on ebay for $300 and best use for it.    The other research i have seen today and while bidding for the unit (used twice, hm hope we get more use out of it)  is that the waveleng of the marc pro is way more advanced than other cheaper ems units and aids in recovery rather than overstimulation.    We dont ice at all,  never have and typically dont have a lot of pain post throwing,   more muscle fatigue  mainly Lats,  but sometimes triceps and biceps.   so thought this unit could help.     seems overkill for a 14 yr old but the price wasnt bad.   

gunner34 posted:

somehow it looks like i wandered into an old discussion,  as i was wondering what i just bought on ebay for $300 and best use for it.    The other research i have seen today and while bidding for the unit (used twice, hm hope we get more use out of it)  is that the waveleng of the marc pro is way more advanced than other cheaper ems units and aids in recovery rather than overstimulation.    We dont ice at all,  never have and typically dont have a lot of pain post throwing,   more muscle fatigue  mainly Lats,  but sometimes triceps and biceps.   so thought this unit could help.     seems overkill for a 14 yr old but the price wasnt bad.   

You made a wise purchase at a great price. I bought mine when my son was about the same age. It cuts down recovery time quite a bit. Last season we also started using it in the dugout between innings when he pitches. It's been nothing short of amazing. He's had outings where he's thrown 100 pitches and says he felt like he go again the next day. Too many young pitchers completely ignore the importance of proper recovery. In high school, almost every pitcher I see does absolutely nothing recovery-related after leaving the mound. 

My son is a soph at a mid-major....grew up playing 80-100 games/year from 10U-13U then 60-70 after that.  Was a SS and pitched....a lot of times in the same game.  Never had an issue...never iced or used any kind of electronic device.....still doesn't.  We knew kids who started icing in 6th/7th grade and a few who had the electronic stuff....most ended up having more arm issues than the kids who never worried about it.  His trainer/PC wanted him to ice in college, but he talked them out of it.  Sounds like they're willing to let him go until they start noticing any issues....so far so good. 

old_school posted:

so ice is bad...I recall thread a few years back where there were arguments that making a kid run distance was actually hurting them...

everything in moderation is what my grandmom used to say.

It's not that either is bad, it's just that, for the purposes pitchers have traditionally employed them, they are a waste of time. Ice when used for swelling is good. For example, with a sprained ankle or significant bruising, ice can reduce that swelling. However, when used for recovery, while it may numb the pain, it constricts blood flow to muscles and slows down the healing process. An e-stim device or anti-inflammatory will do a much better job (NSAID's though have their own risks). As for running, it's a great thing for overall cardio-conditioning, but for years it was sold as how pitchers eliminate lactic acid after pitching. Further research, however, couldn't back that up. Most lactic acid leaves the body at the same rate with or without running. Simply put, running does nothing for recovery of pitchers after a session on the mound and takes time away from other options that do. So, bad? No. Just not very helpful.

As to running, here's what Cressey has to say:

"

The current practice utilized for conditioning is for pitchers is to go for a long run the day after a game to “flush” the sore arm of lactic acid, or minimize muscle soreness to recover faster for the next game. These theories are not supported by the current literature and the physiology of the sport.

In the current research study examining the physiology of pitching, Potteiger et al. (1992) found no significant difference between pre-pitching and post-pitching blood lactate levels of six college baseball players after throwing a 7-inning simulated game. Even though during an inning there is a slight lactate production of 5.3-5.8 mM, (which is not high, considering resting lactate is 1.0mM), it does not cause a buildup of lactic acid in the arm of a pitcher after a game. As a comparative example, a high lactate response would occur from squatting for multiple reps at about 70% 1RM; this might produce a lactate level of about 8-10mM (Reynolds et al., 1997). Furthermore, jogging to flush the arm of lactic acid after a start is unnecessary and not supported by the literature, especially since we learned all the way back in 2004 that lactate was not the cause of muscular fatigue ; even the New York Times reported on this in 2007! A lot of coaches simply haven’t caught wind yet – in spite of the fact that exercise physiology textbooks have been rewritten to include this new information."

roothog66 posted:
 In high school, almost every pitcher I see does absolutely nothing recovery-related after leaving the mound. 

So what is your recovery plan?  Minus the $600 Macpro

Regarding running.  Can we all agree that increased blood flow increases muscle recovery?  Even if we don't understand why.  Increasing your heart rate increases blood flow, so wouldn't any "light" cardio add to recovery?  Which puts you right back at jogging since most don't have a stationary bike in the dugout.

real green posted:
roothog66 posted:
 In high school, almost every pitcher I see does absolutely nothing recovery-related after leaving the mound. 

So what is your recovery plan?  Minus the $600 Macpro

Regarding running.  Can we all agree that increased blood flow increases muscle recovery?  Even if we don't understand why.  Increasing your heart rate increases blood flow, so wouldn't any "light" cardio add to recovery?  Which puts you right back at jogging since most don't have a stationary bike in the dugout.

I thought I had posted a while ago, but it seems to be gone. So, I'll try again. Any increased blood flow that comes from further exercise would be negated by the further muscular damage that occurs with moving body parts. Nothing wrong with running, it just isn't a great recovery vehicle. There are two posts going on this right now, so I'll copy what I posted on the "Recovery Program" thread. What I do with my pitchers includes the MarcPro, but isn't dependent on it:

Here's what I do with my pitchers. Immediately after leaving the mound, they go to the bullpen area and do one set of ten "reverse throws" with a 2 lb. mini-medicine ball (this involves going to one knee and throwing the ball behind you into a wall). This is followed by about five minutes of J-Band work done at a quick pace. Then the two lb ball again for 2 sets of 15 reps doing upward tosses and side lying tosses. The first involves simply standing up and flipping the ball into the air from the waist and catching it on the way down. The second does basically the same while lying on your side. Then he will use the bands again, first grabbing them with two hands in the middle and pulling them apart two sets of 15 reps and then doing basically the same with a diagonal pattern. After that, I use a Body Blade to do three sets in a pitching motion. Then thirty minutes with the Marc Pro attached to elbow and shoulder. 

Often, this has to be adjusted depending on the offensive side of the situation. I like the HC to replace the pitcher in the lineup, if he can. Often, however, if it is a close game and he needs his bat that inning, the recovery may have to wait.

It sounds like your contradicting yourself by stating: Any increased blood flow that comes from further exercise would be negated by the further muscular damage that occurs with moving body parts.

And then recommending all of this:

Immediately after leaving the mound, they go to the bullpen area and do one set of ten "reverse throws" with a 2 lb. mini-medicine ball (this involves going to one knee and throwing the ball behind you into a wall). This is followed by about five minutes of J-Band work done at a quick pace. Then the two lb ball again for 2 sets of 15 reps doing upward tosses and side lying tosses. The first involves simply standing up and flipping the ball into the air from the waist and catching it on the way down. The second does basically the same while lying on your side. Then he will use the bands again, first grabbing them with two hands in the middle and pulling them apart two sets of 15 reps and then doing basically the same with a diagonal pattern. After that, I use a Body Blade to do three sets in a pitching motion.

 

This seems like too much active recovery prior to the Marc Pro.

The Marc Pro and other estim devices are simply using electricity to speed the recovery in comparison the time it takes to properly use heat and cold to do the same thing (contracting and relaxing of the muscles and tissues).

 

 

2forU posted:

It sounds like your contradicting yourself by stating: Any increased blood flow that comes from further exercise would be negated by the further muscular damage that occurs with moving body parts.

And then recommending all of this:

Immediately after leaving the mound, they go to the bullpen area and do one set of ten "reverse throws" with a 2 lb. mini-medicine ball (this involves going to one knee and throwing the ball behind you into a wall). This is followed by about five minutes of J-Band work done at a quick pace. Then the two lb ball again for 2 sets of 15 reps doing upward tosses and side lying tosses. The first involves simply standing up and flipping the ball into the air from the waist and catching it on the way down. The second does basically the same while lying on your side. Then he will use the bands again, first grabbing them with two hands in the middle and pulling them apart two sets of 15 reps and then doing basically the same with a diagonal pattern. After that, I use a Body Blade to do three sets in a pitching motion.

 

This seems like too much active recovery prior to the Marc Pro.

The Marc Pro and other estim devices are simply using electricity to speed the recovery in comparison the time it takes to properly use heat and cold to do the same thing (contracting and relaxing of the muscles and tissues).

 

 

I meant in terms of increasing blood flow to effected muscular tissue. Running is not the same. It is active and violent use of muscles.  Bands and recovery work with plyo-balls do act to stretch and contract separate muscle groups - running does not. The MarcPro does not compare to icing because icing, while contracting muscles, also greatly impedes blood flow, which it is good for bruising and severe sprains. With those, you want to restrict the flooding of blood a bit because too much blood flow causes swelling and pain. 

Howdy, 

As far as ice: If an injury, and there is heat present (can be felt), ice is helpful in reducing warmth, swelling and pain.  Otherwise, icing "non-hot" tissue makes no sense, and likely confuses the natural healing process.  Thus, probably delaying healing.   Someone starts doing something (icing after throwing), and before long, everyone is doing it.  

This Marc Pro is just a well marketed electrical stim unit.  Pretty comical to me actually, as it is marketed quite impressively.  Stim is stim, whether it be TENS or EMS.  It is a "helper" in temporarily reducing some stress, moving fluids, etc.  It is not a "fixer".   Is also used by some to reportedly help strengthen muscles (and there isn't much research that is definitive about that).  Nothing special about this unit, other than it looks real cool.  Stim, by itself when used for injury and pain, does nothing that is permanent.  It is all temporary.  It can be for helpful as part of getting someone feeling better, and may help recruit a muscle when strengthening. It is a tool in the tool box.  You can get the same results with a $50 unit.  

I need this marketing company!!

 

 

We've used two other cheaper e-stim units provided to my son. He reported not feeling nearly "flushed" or refreshed after and I can only attest to the fact that neither was as solidly built as the MarcPro - they felt rather light and cheap. However, I only recently started using it myself. I can definitely report a HUGE difference in recovery speed and soreness issues after weight lifting workouts. As to the price, I've just ordered a less expensive unit. I'll try it as soon as possible and report back. If it does indeed work as well, I'll probably buy a couple more for my pitchers.

roothog66 posted:

We've used two other cheaper e-stim units provided to my son. He reported not feeling nearly "flushed" or refreshed after and I can only attest to the fact that neither was as solidly built as the MarcPro - they felt rather light and cheap. However, I only recently started using it myself. I can definitely report a HUGE difference in recovery speed and soreness issues after weight lifting workouts. As to the price, I've just ordered a less expensive unit. I'll try it as soon as possible and report back. If it does indeed work as well, I'll probably buy a couple more for my pitchers.

Root, can you update me on the less expensive unit?  Considering a Marc Pro Plus.  Wife is an occupational therapist and uses ESTIM and TENS units for rehab and pain management (in mostly elderly or severely injured patients) on a daily basis.  She read through the Marc Pro materials and thinks it would be a good idea for all of us, son included. 

Or if anyone has updated info on the use of Marc Pro.  I've seen the Cory Kluber and other testimonials.  Kluber says he has used it for 3+ years.  Uses it before and after he throws.  As well as the recuperative benefits post throwing, he said the pre-use of it cuts down on 15/20 post start throws (day after a start).

Go44dad posted:
roothog66 posted:

We've used two other cheaper e-stim units provided to my son. He reported not feeling nearly "flushed" or refreshed after and I can only attest to the fact that neither was as solidly built as the MarcPro - they felt rather light and cheap. However, I only recently started using it myself. I can definitely report a HUGE difference in recovery speed and soreness issues after weight lifting workouts. As to the price, I've just ordered a less expensive unit. I'll try it as soon as possible and report back. If it does indeed work as well, I'll probably buy a couple more for my pitchers.

Root, can you update me on the less expensive unit?  Considering a Marc Pro Plus.  Wife is an occupational therapist and uses ESTIM and TENS units for rehab and pain management (in mostly elderly or severely injured patients) on a daily basis.  She read through the Marc Pro materials and thinks it would be a good idea for all of us, son included. 

Or if anyone has updated info on the use of Marc Pro.  I've seen the Cory Kluber and other testimonials.  Kluber says he has used it for 3+ years.  Uses it before and after he throws.  As well as the recuperative benefits post throwing, he said the pre-use of it cuts down on 15/20 post start throws (day after a start).

I bought a unit from LG Med Supplies. However, these can be found used for far less. They are, however, very cheaply built. Mine was broken late in the season last year when it was dropped by a player. They do work well enough, but go through 9 volt batteries at an alarming rate. The MarcPro, on the other hand, has been dropped, beat around, etc. and is still going strong. Also, the battery keeps a charge for an unbelievable length of time.

I cannot recommend the MarcPro highly enough. My son hasn't had as much as a sore arm in three years. 

I think it is important to think about the Marc Pro device or ESTIM use for pitchers in the context of the changes & philosophies that have evolved regarding increasing velocity & pitcher training over the last 30 years.

I pitched in College & MILB ending in the mid 90's. At that point in time I, personally, was not aware of ANYONE actively using: Rubber Tubing, Weighted Balls, Flex Sticks, Box Jumps, Extreme Long Toss, Cleans & Olympic Lifts and or any real significant weight training. (as a training / recovery method for pitchers)

Most all of these methods are fairly mainstream now for a large cross section of elite pitchers.  

What will science, technology and research bring us to the mainstream 30 years from now? Will pitching training and recovery look identical to today? Has everything been discovered and unlocked about velocity and arm care? Um, no!

If you were a Pro Pitching Coach back in the early 90's & suggested the above training methods you would have been unemployed in about 5 minutes. Now, 25 years later, if you do not incorporate many of the above methods you would also be unemployed in about 5 minutes. What does that tell you? It tells you that you must keep an open mind and do as much research as you can on a method, add a major dose of common sense and proceed accordingly. This is a must if you want to try to stay ahead of the curve and gain an edge.

I applied the above method to the Marc Pro issue. I ordered 1 early this week & my 2021 had it strapped on last night doing a global arm flush watching the Celtics beat GS after we threw long in the yard. Am I 100% positive that it will make him a better pitcher? No. Am I going to wait for 10 years of research to sift out a definitive answer? No. Do I think it will do him any harm? Quite the contrary. The increased blood flow and vascular dilation makes perfect sense to me as a layman on the medical aspect.

Don't post a lot any more, though I probably should.

Got on the Marc Pro bandwagon early on.  For my 2017 it did as described, flushed soreness, quicker to recover, and was vital to arm care protocol throughout HS, and summer seasons.  Definitely worthwhile, in my opinion.  Also, while I have not reviewed the other units that are more affordable, mentioned in this thread, my understanding is that Marc Pro uses an electrical wave different from most other units to promote the recovery and healing.  Marketing, or true?...who knows, just know our experience with it, and from what I have heard from others.

Having said the above, a cautionary tale:   The newer philosophies, training methods (Motus Sleeve), and recovery protocols (Marc Pro) are great, and we are learning more and more every day.  They provide added insurance, however it is only "insurance".  I would say that I have spent quite a bit of my life in baseball / learning about baseball, and try to keep up with the technology which of the last 10 years has accelerated more than any time in the past. 

My lefty son recently underwent TJ surgery late this summer.  He is currently living full-time in Seattle training at Driveline Baseball with some of the most progressive minds in baseball, as it relates to training pitchers, and rehab protocols.  Nobody could point to any misstep along the way, that would have predicted a near entire rupture of the UCL...in fact his surgeon indicated he likely unknowingly pitched with it torn for over a year.  I have my "ideas" of how it happened, mainly high stress innings during 3 consecutive years of Texas HS championship runs. 

The surgeon who performed his surgery pretty much echoed most of the medical field, that predicting, and / or preventing injuries is difficult at best.  On the day of his surgery, we sat across from a man that struck up a conversation with us, turned out his is an agent for two current pitchers that will likely be in the HOF....he was there because his son (who pitched this past summer for the winning Florida Gators) was having TJ by the same surgeon right after my son.  He indicated the same thing, his son was always following the latest & greatest training, and recovery programs...never complained before it happened, and had no obvious mechanical flaws that "should" have caused this. 

Yes, Marco Pro is great IMO, but you will find pitchers who throw until their 40's who never took a pitching lesson, or even iced, much less Marc Pro, and you will find pitchers (similar to son) who had TJ at an early age.

 

Back Foot,  Thanks for the post & information. Don't be a stranger. You are 100% correct in your summary. Particularly for high velo throwers there are just so many variables and when the arm is moving that fast anything is possible. Best wishes to you & your Son's recovery.

BishopLeftiesDad posted:

Sorry if this is off topic but I can not resist.

I do not know any 12 U who do not like Icing, But some do prefer frosting.

Pardon me while I run for cover. 

I know. It looks cool - especially at 12u - like you know what you're doing. However, nothing better than that look on people's face the first time they watch you use an e-stim with your arm jerking all over the place. When my kid was a freshman, his HC, who had been there since 1972 said, "I walked in the dugout and thought he was having a heart attack."

roothog66 posted:

Thought I'd add that my son also uses the MarcPro between innings while pitching. It's his experience that it keeps his arm loose and he can step on the mound without really needing more than one or two warm up pitches.

The discussion on the MarcPro is interesting.

Kyle mentioned it for recovery. It sounds like your son is doing it for general looseness?

For pitchers, is MarcPro used on the shoulder? Elsewhere?

2019Dad posted:
roothog66 posted:

Thought I'd add that my son also uses the MarcPro between innings while pitching. It's his experience that it keeps his arm loose and he can step on the mound without really needing more than one or two warm up pitches.

The discussion on the MarcPro is interesting.

Kyle mentioned it for recovery. It sounds like your son is doing it for general looseness?

For pitchers, is MarcPro used on the shoulder? Elsewhere?

Yeah, as a pitcher, he uses it on the shoulder and elbow. For lifting, he uses it everywhere - legs, back. Pretty much anywhere but the chest or head for obvious reasons.

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