NP13,
You bring up some very good points. However, I think you could have done it a bit more "respectfully" IMO! The major point is verification of height and weight in regard to rating a player. You are correct, ht/wt can be important, just as GPA and date of birth.
I'll attempt to respond to your post below.
quote:
I did not want to take another discussion further off topic, but I must respectfully disagree with several of the statements.
"It really was fairly unimportant." - That not even close to being true... If it was, why list it at all.
Please add the entire statement rather than picking out one sentence. The reason for listing is because it is part of the Bio on that player. Would college coaches prefer "nothing" being listed?
Sure if you are a top 1% talent, but what about all those other kids looking for exposure. It may not be important to Price Fielder or Zack Grenkie, but it sure mattered to Brett Gardner. He was lightning fast and College of Charleston would not have even given him a shot if not for a transfer.
Guess I don’t understand the reference to Brett Gardner. He is one of many 5’10” players in the big leagues. Would he somehow be at a higher level had someone listed him at 6’0”? Coastal Carolina’s current roster has 9 players listed between 5’9” and 5’11”! LSU was last year’s champions, their current roster lists 11 players between 5’6” and 5’11”! Does anyone really believe that all these players got there by exaggerating their height?
"If you're small, yet something special, it doesn't matter" - What if you 5'10 and honest and another kid is 5'10.5" and list 6'. You don't think that matters when a college coach is making a short list? I had a well respected college coach tell me they like to recruit the kids out of there camp, but they compile a list from showcases profiles(not just PG).
NP, does that very respected coach measure that kid at his camp? We have not once been asked to measure players by any college. We see nearly all the DI colleges each year. If they want it, we will do it. We see thousands of players at our tournaments. Those rosters are turned in by the coaches. Are they perfectly accurate? No, it is obvious they are not always accurate. When players attend an event, they fill out player information sheets ahead of time. This is where they list their height and weight among other things, like birth date. Before the event takes place programs and information sheets for scouts and college coaches are printed. At most showcase events players register and start the event immediately. So even if we were to measure, there is no time to print. Someone brought up how important they thought birth dates were. Should that be checked out also? How about academics, everyone knows how important that is. Colleges need the transcripts, we don’t. Bottom line… It just doesn’t help anyone by telling anything other than the truth. Most kids tell the truth… Their listed height is very close to what they are. College basketball programs have been notorious in the past at listing players taller than they really are. The listed height does not affect what the NBA does.
"but an inch or two or a few pounds are not critical factors in evaluation" - Maybe not the evaluation number, but it does to the coaches that look at the profile. I know PG is well respected and should be, but there rating isn't the "be all, end all" to college coaches. At least for some, it is a starting point. 6' instead of 5'10" does matter.
Our events are all about finding out who can play and who has the best tools. Everyone is looking for the “obvious” talent. Most players end up where their talent dictates. Sometimes the talent evaluation can be wrong and this can have a negative affect. But whether a player is truly 5’10 or 6’0 will not change anyone’s thinking. I don’t think any good college coach will eliminate a player because he is listed as 5’10” (using your example). If the 5’10” guy is border line and the 6’0 guy is border line, coaches will look for what they think is the guy who is good enough for sure. How tall that player is will have very little to do with their decisions.
"Who's it hurting? No one" - It hurts the honest kids. That is like saying PED don't hurt the kids who don't take them. It's not a level playing/recruiting field.
Please don’t confuse someone’s listed height with using PED’s. No matter what someone thinks about size or honesty… The playing field is about as level as it can be when it comes to recruiting or scouting. #1 on everyone’s list is talent. Sure everyone would prefer their pitchers be taller rather than shorter, unless the shorter guy is better.
I really like Perfect Game and PGstaff for all he add to this site, but please verify H/W. I'm sure you can get someone to stand there during registration and verify H/W. Give a parent a hat and t-shirt if you don't want to pay someone for the regristration time. Kids alway trickle in to any camp or showcase please don't pretend this is difficult. I been to many wrestling tournaments where 100 plus kids get weighed in as they register, it's not that hard...
OK, we don’t have players weigh in. Unlike wrestling, in baseball they compete against others that might be much bigger or smaller. It doesn’t have anything to do with “paying” someone to do it, that’s kind of an insult. No one ever said it was difficult, did they? What do you mean by saying things like… “Please don’t pretend”! You are correct, this would be very easy to do. It would be much harder to reprint the program for those in attendance. I wish you would have simply stated your opinion a bit differently. It might just be that we will actually start measuring players at all our events. We would have already done that if we actually thought we were hurting honest kids. After all, that would be the vast majority of all those kids we see.
Once again, if college recruiters or MLB scouts asked us to do this because of its importance, we would do it. They request many things, but not one has ever requested that. When they send you a questionnaire, they know you will be filling in your height and weight. They do not take that as the gospel and they will find out soon enough if they believe you have the necessary talent.
Here is the post you’re referring to in its entirety. I suppose if I were to redo this I might add more to it. I appreciate opinions regarding this because we certainly have changed things if it will help make what we do better. quote:
I'm sorry, but I'm also not sure what it is you are looking for. We have measured height at some events, never weighed players. It really was fairly unimportant.
What did become important is when people would list themself as 6'1" when they were obviously more like 5'8". This would reveal something and it is obvious.
If anyone here has ever been to a Major League tryout, have you been measured or do they ask you to fill out a form with your height and weight?
If anyone here has filled out a college questionaire, do they measure you or ask for you to list your height and weight.
Anyone can "fudge" an inch or so, but any more than that becomes very obvious to all those who make decisions.
Evaluating players involves talent, projection can involve body type. Character involves being honest to a degree. We have seen players that appear taller than what is listed and we see more players who appear to be shorter than what is listed. There is lots of information we ask for and we take it as factual. Birth date, ht, wt, B/T, GPA, etc. we certainly hope that the information is close to accurate.
I believe that East Coast Pro, Area Codes, the Scouting Bureau might measure and weigh players. We seldom do that. No one involved in making decisions has ever asked us to do that. If they did ask us to do it, we would do it.
Is it important if we list Zach Greinke the 6'2" he reported in high school or if he would have reported 6'4". BTW, he is 6'2" on the MLB roster.
Prince Fielder listed himself as 6'1" when he was in high school, he's now listed as 6'0 on his MLB roster... It didn't make any difference if he was really 6'0' or 6'1" and that is if he is really 6'0".
Chris Cates listed himself to us as 5'3" in high school, he is 5'3" today. We wouldn't have thought he was any better or worse if he had listed himself at 5'8". Just the same player at a different size. Real good!
Word travels like wild fire when a player has grossly overstated his size. People who do this for a living are not fooled that easily.
I'm watching the MLB Network talking about Adam Jones in last year's All Star game right now. He listed himself as 6'1/180 for us in high school. Now he is listed as 6'2"/200 for the Orioles. That is usually how it works.
Most people tell the truth and even what they think is the truth might be a bit inaccurate. High school kids can change a lot in a short period of time. If people report 6'1" I think he is 6'1" unless my eyes tell me differently. If he is a little under or a little over it doesn't change how we evaluate him. Only the gross exagerations become a concern and those are very obvious.
With all that said, I believe in the more information the better. But do we actually gether more important info about a player by measuring him or finding out how honest he is? That is the question. If he's good enough he will be measured at some point. We have found that most of those considered the best are truthful even if not entirely accurate. No one is fooled to any great extent!
