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I see a lot of celebration concerning the new eligibility rules, but seems to me there are a lot of questions:

1. Where does the money come from?

2. What will the seniors do/or be allowed to do?

3. Will schools be able to honor their 2020/2021 commits?

4. Will kids panic and transfer to other schools?

5. Will there be a load of walk ons now with kids not playing?

6. IVY's are not allowing seniors to stay so will they benefit?

 

What are you thought?

 

 

 

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Good Knight posted:

I see a lot of celebration concerning the new eligibility rules, but seems to me there are a lot of questions:

3. Will schools be able to honor their 2020/2021 commits? 

 

2020's have signed NLI's so the schools HAVE to honor the scholarships. Of course they can tell the player there's no spot on the team and effectively force them to transfer or give up college baseball. But that's nothing new...

2021's and 2022's will be the ones that feel it the most. Verbals don't mean a darn thing especially during a pandemic.

I would think schools will cut their 2021 commitments in half.  Look at the school your son is committed to.  How many seniors were on the team?  How many played/started?  Some schools may have less impact.  Either way, every class getting to stay an extra year causes some issues.   A lot of it may get worked out next year with kids transferring that don't want to redshirt (if that's allowed), and if there are places for them to go.  It makes my head hurt.  Regardless, if you aren't in the top half of the recruiting class the next few years, I think you have something to worry about.

 

1. Where does the money come from?

Each school will have to decide if they want to spend the extra money to keep the Corona Seniors.  They are not required to honor any scholarships but they will for their studs.  I think most coaches will find money for a 5th year stud.  5th year non-stud, probably not.  The P5's will have access to some money and the lower level D1's will tell their seniors except maybe 1 or 2 sorry we would love to have you but we can't give you anything.

2. What will the seniors do/or be allowed to do?

They should be able to transfer.  I think that will definitely pass  in June because they will need it to keep some rosters down so the schools will vote for it. 

3. Will schools be able to honor their 2020/2021 commits?

Not all of them.  They will tell some of them that are walk-ons and preferred walk-ons they can come to fall but will not have room for them in the spring and they will tell some.  Sorry, it was the virus' fault but we don't have room for you now.  Hopefully sooner than later.  If I'm a 2021, I'm talking to my commitment school in about 3/4 weeks, not today because they will not have a truthful answer.  They will tell you what you want to hear.  But after they have time to figure it out I think many coaches will do the right thing and tell their recruits they don't have room for them.  I don't think very few know today until they talk to their returning players and find out what their seniors and juniors are going to do.

4. Will kids panic and transfer to other schools?

YES.  But where.  Everybody is in the same boat so unless you are going down a level there is no where to go.  By that I mean, if you are an SEC recruit and going to a lower level P5 or mid-major or juco.  I know a few jucos that are licking their lips because they know they are going to get some studs that are at P5's or were going to P5's.  You can bet your bottom dollar that there are some deals being done today between P5 coaches and their juco buddies to send some guys their way then get them back.  I don't think it will just be 2020s and 2021s.  I think the big losers could be 2022s and 2023s because they might not get recruited heavily.  If you are not a stud in those classes you might have to work even harder to get seen.  Especially if there is no summer ball this year.

5. Will there be a load of walk ons now with kids not playing?

No.  Fewer true walk-ons because there will be more preferred walk-ons.  I don't think there will be hardly any room for true walk-ons.  There could be 5-10 extra players with some on scholarship that would not have been there.

6. IVY's are not allowing seniors to stay so will they benefit?

No.  Why would you not allow your stud senior who was not drafted to come back for another shot rather than take $20,000. 

 

ABSORBER posted:
Good Knight posted:

I see a lot of celebration concerning the new eligibility rules, but seems to me there are a lot of questions:

3. Will schools be able to honor their 2020/2021 commits? 

 

2020's have signed NLI's so the schools HAVE to honor the scholarships. Of course they can tell the player there's no spot on the team and effectively force them to transfer or give up college baseball. But that's nothing new...

2021's and 2022's will be the ones that feel it the most. Verbals don't mean a darn thing especially during a pandemic.

I think the NLI's became even more worthless as a contract.  How many guys who were given a scholarship, which means they are probably in the top 1/2 of the recruiting class, will go to school without playing baseball.  The coaches have an out this year and can blame over recruiting on Corona.  They will make the NLI's useless by saying "yes, we still have to honor your scholarship but you are not playing here.  Enjoy the classes."  I don't know a single player that I have ever coached or helped(100's) that signed a NLI that would continue to go to the college they signed with without playing baseball. 

Now there will be some who acted like they signed an NLI on signing day that are really preferred walk-ons that might still go without baseball but not ones that signed a scholarship.

Let me clarify on above post that I put No. to Ivy's.  I'm not saying it's not true I'm saying it should not be happening.  Why would you not allow your seniors to come back if the NCAA says they can?  I'm sure it was a decision made by conference but I would have a hard time telling my stud senior he could not come back for his extra year and watch him transfer to another school.

Good Knight posted:

 

6. IVY's are not allowing seniors to stay so will they benefit?

 What are you thought?

 

 

 

Good Knight,

This is business as usual for the Ivys.  I was not expecting the conference to allow seniors to come back.  They've never allowed graduate students to play NCAA sports.  I believe that is specifically called out in their charter.   Yes, it sucks to lose your senior year like this, however the lifeblood of an Ivy program is typically a mixture of incoming talent and a few upper classmen.   What I don't know is if the NCAA is going to allow Ivy seniors to transfer and not count 2020 against them without a redshirt year.   Possibly the NCAA would allow this as an exception.  Again, I'd be curious to know the answer.

Over the years there have been some Ivy players who have medically redshirted and played as graduate transfers at other schools but they had a year of eligibility left.   My son played with a couple guys who got their MBAs at Duke.   Worked out for them.

PitchingFan posted:

Let me clarify on above post that I put No. to Ivy's.  I'm not saying it's not true I'm saying it should not be happening.  Why would you not allow your seniors to come back if the NCAA says they can?  I'm sure it was a decision made by conference but I would have a hard time telling my stud senior he could not come back for his extra year and watch him transfer to another school.

Ivy's only allow undergraduate students to participate in athletics. I would imagine most Ivy graduates don't use a school's athletic program to assist their decision-making process when deciding where to attend grad school. To change this rule I would imagine they would have to open athletics up to ALL graduate students regardless of sport/season and whether they were affected by COVID-19 cancellations.

fenwaysouth posted:
Good Knight posted:

 

6. IVY's are not allowing seniors to stay so will they benefit?

 What are you thought?

 

 

 

Good Knight,

This is business as usual for the Ivys.  I was not expecting the conference to allow seniors to come back.  They've never allowed graduate students to play NCAA sports.  I believe that is specifically called out in their charter.   Yes, it sucks to lose your senior year like this, however the lifeblood of an Ivy program is typically a mixture of incoming talent and a few upper classmen.   What I don't know is if the NCAA is going to allow Ivy seniors to transfer and not count 2020 against them without a redshirt year.   Possibly the NCAA would allow this as an exception.  Again, I'd be curious to know the answer.

Over the years there have been some Ivy players who have medically redshirted and played as graduate transfers at other schools but they had a year of eligibility left.   My son played with a couple guys who got their MBAs at Duke.   Worked out for them.

I don't see how Ivy seniors would be treated (by the NCAA) any different than any other D1 senior. The bigger question is whether any schools will have openings for them (as grad transfers).

Wake Forest's grad transfer from Cornell (red-shirt freshman year) had quite a 2020 (short) season! He led the team offensively. I'm sure he'll be on the roster for them next year which will work out quite nicely for him (earning his degree).

Will an underclassman be allowed to transfer without sitting out a year?  I can assume there are Freshman/Sophomores who look around and see little playing time in there future.  Many Juniors who previously would have been drafted/signed are not going to leave for $20K.  This will clog some players potential paths to playing time.  I realize there may be fewer places for a player to go, but if he is an upgrade for a team they will take him and deal with the roster management.  More of a problem for position players than pitchers.  Pitchers that can perform get opportunities due to timing and injuries.  Position players can get buried very quickly on a roster.  

I assume there will be more Senior signs (teams need to fill minor league rosters) but still quite a few potential players returning to complete undergrad degrees or start grad degrees.  These will probably be better players that did not get pro offers.  Coaches will not hold a spot for a Senior who was not a significant contributor.   They need to keep the line moving.  Many will feel bad for the Seniors but they do not get paid to be sentimental.  They want to put the best team on the field.  

I am going with what I was told. Freshman are a programs future.  

Two important developments.

As per Kendall Rogers. JC transfers who were sophmores this spring will head to D1 programs this fall as juniors- a waiver can be submitted.  

Transfers/ Grad Transfers can move to a new program to get year back. Grads can get more than previous aid amount at  a new school.

Remember if you think that this is a mess and may impact your player negatively, you can thank the NCAA!

Last edited by TPM

Don't you think that any juco who was going to leave for D1 will need to have a hard talk with D1 coach?  What will my role be, playing time?  Should I stay at juco for another year and then make the jump?  I think any juco player planning on moving should have the same conversation that a 2021 needs to have with D1 to help them decide on their future.  I think there will be some stacked juco's this year as well as the level of D1 baseball will go up a level.   It will be much harder to pick ahead of time who will win CWS because the landscape will be so changed by spring 2021 on so many teams. 

PitchingFan posted:

Don't you think that any juco who was going to leave for D1 will need to have a hard talk with D1 coach?  What will my role be, playing time?  Should I stay at juco for another year and then make the jump?  I think any juco player planning on moving should have the same conversation that a 2021 needs to have with D1 to help them decide on their future.  I think there will be some stacked juco's this year as well as the level of D1 baseball will go up a level.   It will be much harder to pick ahead of time who will win CWS because the landscape will be so changed by spring 2021 on so many teams. 

In many programs, JUCO transfers are necessary.

Not in P5's but mostly in mid D1 programs.

And no if anyone asks, my player would not be wasting time 3 years in D1.  

I am sure that  today that coaches are on phone today discussing options.

TPM posted:
PitchingFan posted:

Don't you think that any juco who was going to leave for D1 will need to have a hard talk with D1 coach?  What will my role be, playing time?  Should I stay at juco for another year and then make the jump?  I think any juco player planning on moving should have the same conversation that a 2021 needs to have with D1 to help them decide on their future.  I think there will be some stacked juco's this year as well as the level of D1 baseball will go up a level.   It will be much harder to pick ahead of time who will win CWS because the landscape will be so changed by spring 2021 on so many teams. 

In many programs, JUCO transfers are necessary.

Not in P5's but mostly in mid D1 programs.

And no if anyone asks, my player would not be wasting time 3 years in D1.  

I am sure that  today that coaches are on phone today discussing options.

ALL freshmen that are D1 commits to top 50 programs should be reevaluating their situation and looking into JuCo options. 

adbono posted:
TPM posted:
PitchingFan posted:

Don't you think that any juco who was going to leave for D1 will need to have a hard talk with D1 coach?  What will my role be, playing time?  Should I stay at juco for another year and then make the jump?  I think any juco player planning on moving should have the same conversation that a 2021 needs to have with D1 to help them decide on their future.  I think there will be some stacked juco's this year as well as the level of D1 baseball will go up a level.   It will be much harder to pick ahead of time who will win CWS because the landscape will be so changed by spring 2021 on so many teams. 

In many programs, JUCO transfers are necessary.

Not in P5's but mostly in mid D1 programs.

And no if anyone asks, my player would not be wasting time 3 years in D1.  

I am sure that  today that coaches are on phone today discussing options.

ALL freshmen that are D1 commits to top 50 programs should be reevaluating their situation and looking into JuCo options. 

That was poorly worded. I meant 2020 HS seniors 

PitchingFan posted:

Don't you think that any juco who was going to leave for D1 will need to have a hard talk with D1 coach?  What will my role be, playing time?  Should I stay at juco for another year and then make the jump?  I think any juco player planning on moving should have the same conversation that a 2021 needs to have with D1 to help them decide on their future.  I think there will be some stacked juco's this year as well as the level of D1 baseball will go up a level.   It will be much harder to pick ahead of time who will win CWS because the landscape will be so changed by spring 2021 on so many teams. 

I'd think most of the Sophomore's will have to move on. You can only take so many hours at Juco's.  They increased the cap to 72 hours, but that doesn't mean the 4 years school will take those hours.  Adbono, I'd like to hear your thoughts on the Juco Sophomore's and what their options are,

d-mac posted:
PitchingFan posted:

Don't you think that any juco who was going to leave for D1 will need to have a hard talk with D1 coach?  What will my role be, playing time?  Should I stay at juco for another year and then make the jump?  I think any juco player planning on moving should have the same conversation that a 2021 needs to have with D1 to help them decide on their future.  I think there will be some stacked juco's this year as well as the level of D1 baseball will go up a level.   It will be much harder to pick ahead of time who will win CWS because the landscape will be so changed by spring 2021 on so many teams. 

I'd think most of the Sophomore's will have to move on. You can only take so many hours at Juco's.  They increased the cap to 72 hours, but that doesn't mean the 4 years school will take those hours.  Adbono, I'd like to hear your thoughts on the Juco Sophomore's and what their options are,

JuCo Sophomores are in a tough spot. You got the academic challenge identified correctly. A third year of Juco is pretty much an academic waste for most kids. In other posts I’ve suggested that every HS senior should be looking for JuCo options - I don’t care what D1 school you are committed to. It’s not that simple for JuCo Soph transfers. First criteria would be whether or not an NLI has been signed. If so, and $ are big, probably best to stay the course. But that’s not the case for most. If it were my kid I would be looking for an opportunity to bounce down to better situation. P5 to mid major, D1 mid major to top D2 program, etc. In order to make a move that creates a better situation there will have to be some significant roster analysis and fact checking. I wouldn’t take anyone’s word for granted without verifying anything that can be verified. 

I haven't seen anyone mention the fact that the NLI works both ways - all these HS 2020s who have signed NLIs are already contractually bound to that program.  If they change their commitment now, they will have to sit out a year at the new school, AND lose one season of eligibility.

Waivers and releases can possibly be available, but it does complicate the process.

T_Thomas posted:

I haven't seen anyone mention the fact that the NLI works both ways - all these HS 2020s who have signed NLIs are already contractually bound to that program.  If they change their commitment now, they will have to sit out a year at the new school, AND lose one season of eligibility.

Waivers and releases can possibly be available, but it does complicate the process.

D1 HCs will be jumping at the chance to release some players from their NLI. A roster of 50 plus is unmanageable. Any freshman can drop down to JuCo with no penalty and have a chance to play instead of wearing a redshirt. Many that show up at their D1 school are going to end up at a Juco anyway. They just don’t know it yet. 

As adbono says a couple of post up, you have to look at the rosters for the schools you are targeting.  This is a handful of SEC and ACC teams from my son's list.  

I pulled roster numbers from each university's webpage, some include current redshirts as some rosters have more that 35 players listed.  As my son is a pitcher, the second number in each field is the number of pitchers broken out.  I added a column for each class to show the PG recruiting class data to get an idea of retention.   I did not dig into the level of accounting for incoming transfers replacing outgoing cuts/transfers so the data is a little dirty in that regard.

It's just one snapshot but certainly something to be learned from the info.  I assume as I get into mid-majors, lower D1 and beyond the rosters will be less freshman heavy.  At least at the schools on the list, most players are gone before their junior year and almost all gone before senior year.

 

Last edited by 22and25
TPM posted:

Question. How many seniors do programs really have? I was looking over some programs here in Florida, one program only had 30 players on roster. And some out of state. I don't think seniors will be the issue.

Our program has eight seniors, but you also have to think about the juniors who might’ve gone in the draft in rounds 6 through 20 that will stay another year.

baseballhs posted:
TPM posted:

Question. How many seniors do programs really have? I was looking over some programs here in Florida, one program only had 30 players on roster. And some out of state. I don't think seniors will be the issue.

Our program has eight seniors, but you also have to think about the juniors who might’ve gone in the draft in rounds 6 through 20 that will stay another year.

Do you or anyone believe that R Sr's should have an opportunity to play one more year?  I am just asking because these are points that are going to be brought up.

TPM posted:

Question. How many seniors do programs really have? I was looking over some programs here in Florida, one program only had 30 players on roster. And some out of state. I don't think seniors will be the issue.

I’m in agreement. On the pitcher side of the roster, Son’s school has two seniors. For Jr’s, there are a couple of high impact/high ceiling guys, they may go in top 5 rounds of draft. Biggest impact is incoming 2020 class. It’s going to have 3-4 more pitchers than I was guessing. And that class is almost all pitching. 

Son’s plan is to lean into it. 

Go44dad posted:
TPM posted:

Question. How many seniors do programs really have? I was looking over some programs here in Florida, one program only had 30 players on roster. And some out of state. I don't think seniors will be the issue.

I’m in agreement. On the pitcher side of the roster, Son’s school has two seniors. For Jr’s, there are a couple of high impact/high ceiling guys, they may go in top 5 rounds of draft. Biggest impact is incoming 2020 class. It’s going to have 3-4 more pitchers than I was guessing. And that class is almost all pitching. 

Son’s plan is to lean into it. 

Good luck with that! 

ABSORBER posted:
fenwaysouth posted:
Good Knight posted:

 

6. IVY's are not allowing seniors to stay so will they benefit?

 What are you thought?

 

 

 

Good Knight,

Over the years there have been some Ivy players who have medically redshirted and played as graduate transfers at other schools but they had a year of eligibility left.   My son played with a couple guys who got their MBAs at Duke.   Worked out for them.

Wake Forest's grad transfer from Cornell (red-shirt freshman year) had quite a 2020 (short) season! He led the team offensively. I'm sure he'll be on the roster for them next year which will work out quite nicely for him (earning his degree).

USC's top hitter (BA) and leader in saves this year was a grad student from Yale who had a year of eligibility left due to an early season ending injury his senior year.

Curious as to what will happen with rosters as far as legality goes. Seniors can be brought back on no money so they don't really pose a huge issue. But juniors, draft eligible sophs, and high schoolers will not be signing contracts at the rate they were expected to. 

In other words a school maybe have 17.1 scholarships to manage before August hits. There is no 11.7 limit, but who is paying for all these extra guys?

Current rostered players are not going to give up their scholarships or leave their programs to make room for incoming freshmen. I would suspect that 2020s would suffer. But even then, with another year of talent in the system + all signees from round 6+ coming back there really aren't going to be a ton of great options as far as looking for another school. Why give up my 40% scholarship to a P5 to go fight it out at a highly ranked juco with their returning players, their 3rd year guys coming back, their commits, and now more D1 decommits. Roster sizes are still going to be an issue in 2 years when it's time to find a 4 yr school. 

I know if I were a guy with a future in the program and received a call from my coach about money being an issue or roster size being an issue I would tell him I'm not transferring and giving up my $ unless I was guaranteed another school in a good situation. The money is still an issue and even if you were to say you're staying as a regular student they would have to find somebody else with money to transfer out. 

baseballhs posted:

Guys don’t “give up” their spots, the coach tells them their spot is gone.  Sophomores and juniors are going to be having to earn their spots in these huge numbers too.  Freshmen are at a disadvantage but the guys there better not get complacent.

There are 300 D1 programs and all D1 baseball is not the same. In fact there is a big difference between the level of talent in the top 50 programs and the bottom 100.  There may be more parity in the top 100 programs than ever but the difference in culture between the top 50 and the bottom 100 is huge. In the top 50 nobody has it made. There is competition every day at every position. It is dog eat dog and there is nobody on the roster that can’t play. Coaches at the top programs are making a million $ a year and they are brutal in their decision making. They are running a business and they treat it as such. The stakes are higher in the best baseball conferences. 

baseballhs posted:

Guys don’t “give up” their spots, the coach tells them their spot is gone.  Sophomores and juniors are going to be having to earn their spots in these huge numbers too.  Freshmen are at a disadvantage but the guys there better not get complacent.

I understand what you're saying, but the spot isn't gone. They're telling you to leave and you're agreeing. If you have a guaranteed scholarship and they tell you to leave - they have the issue when you choose not to. 

My 2019 had an offer from a school. Our travel coach warned us and put us in contact with the parents of an older kid in our program who was at the school. He was on a pretty big scholarship as a P at the P5. After a rocky freshman year the coach sat him down and gave him the you're never going to see playing time conversation. They didn't want him gone, they were just trying to free up money for another guy. It had nothing to do with talent and everything to do with his scholarship taking up a lot of money. He basically called their bluff and told them that school was too cheap to pass up and thanked them but he was willing to compete in fall for playing time. Another kid was cut two days later instead.  He eventually became the Saturday starter as a senior before signing on the cheap as a late round pick recently. 

There is a difference between we don't need you and we can't afford your scholarship. Now if you throw 3 innings your freshman year and the majority of the staff is back. Bad news. But if you throw 15 and aren't mopping up mid week beatdowns, you're in for a reason. Same goes for position players. 4 appearances with 0 starts and 6 abs. Tough to show you're valuable. But 30 ABs with spot starts, pinch hitting in RBI spots, and a graduating senior in front of you. Sounds like you'll be of use. 

Given the current circumstances I'm not entirely sure if walking away from your current school, scholarship, credits, and social life is worth walking on at another program that will also be crowded. If you're getting cut, pro ball likely isn't in the cards, especially now. JMO but this is also why it is important to choose a school you would be happy at without baseball, that is a different discussion. 

The obvious choice would be that  if you don't have ATHLETIC money at a school that is overcommitted, look at the options before the season starts.  Athletic money means you are part of the 11.7, 27, and 35.  Therefore you are a counter and do have a spot on the team.  If you are a walk-on, preferred walk-on, or have academic money, and playing is important, I would think about where I am headed. 

adbono posted:
Go44dad posted:
TPM posted:

Question. How many seniors do programs really have? I was looking over some programs here in Florida, one program only had 30 players on roster. And some out of state. I don't think seniors will be the issue.

I’m in agreement. On the pitcher side of the roster, Son’s school has two seniors. For Jr’s, there are a couple of high impact/high ceiling guys, they may go in top 5 rounds of draft. Biggest impact is incoming 2020 class. It’s going to have 3-4 more pitchers than I was guessing. And that class is almost all pitching. 

Son’s plan is to lean into it. 

Good luck with that! 

We appreciate it!

Next year's spectrum runs from pitching in the CWS to the coach telling you will never see the field.  Why drop your rifle and run in April just because you hear a couple musket shots from over the hill?

Go44dad posted:
adbono posted:
Go44dad posted:
TPM posted:

Question. How many seniors do programs really have? I was looking over some programs here in Florida, one program only had 30 players on roster. And some out of state. I don't think seniors will be the issue.

I’m in agreement. On the pitcher side of the roster, Son’s school has two seniors. For Jr’s, there are a couple of high impact/high ceiling guys, they may go in top 5 rounds of draft. Biggest impact is incoming 2020 class. It’s going to have 3-4 more pitchers than I was guessing. And that class is almost all pitching. 

Son’s plan is to lean into it. 

Good luck with that! 

We appreciate it!

Next year's spectrum runs from pitching in the CWS to the coach telling you will never see the field.  Why drop your rifle and run in April just because you hear a couple musket shots from over the hill?

Nothing wrong with being confident. Just need to understand that the probabilities have changed considerably 

adbono posted:
Go44dad posted:
adbono posted:
Go44dad posted:
TPM posted:

Question. How many seniors do programs really have? I was looking over some programs here in Florida, one program only had 30 players on roster. And some out of state. I don't think seniors will be the issue.

I’m in agreement. On the pitcher side of the roster, Son’s school has two seniors. For Jr’s, there are a couple of high impact/high ceiling guys, they may go in top 5 rounds of draft. Biggest impact is incoming 2020 class. It’s going to have 3-4 more pitchers than I was guessing. And that class is almost all pitching. 

Son’s plan is to lean into it. 

Good luck with that! 

We appreciate it!

Next year's spectrum runs from pitching in the CWS to the coach telling you will never see the field.  Why drop your rifle and run in April just because you hear a couple musket shots from over the hill?

Nothing wrong with being confident. Just need to understand that the probabilities have changed considerably 

I understand the probabilities have changed.  Son understands the probabilities have changed. 

But I don't think you get my posts.  Surely I could express myself better.

It's not a failure for my son to strive for his goals and not reach them. After all, it's just baseball.

Maybe I have misunderstood your posts.  My takeaway is you are telling all of the 2020 recruiting class to lower their goals because it will be too tough for them.

adbono posted:

I would never tell anyone to lower their goals. I am suggesting that the 2020 class get more realistic. MOST HS seniors are not ready to compete with 22 year old men under normal circumstances. Add another recruiting class to the mix and situation got WAY tougher - and not just for the next year! 

There is more than one way to reach your goal. Based on what has happened I’m suggesting that (for most) it would benefit them to consider a different route. 

adbono posted:

I would never tell anyone to lower their goals. I am suggesting that the 2020 class get more realistic. MOST HS seniors are not ready to compete with 22 year old men under normal circumstances. Add another recruiting class to the mix and situation got WAY tougher - and not just for the next year! 

No doubt it got tougher.  We know the count/kids/current players. Worst case he transfers to a JUCO in 2021.  And that's not a bad outcome.

Or who knows, maybe a professor lights a passionate flame for the liberal arts and it leads to a lifetime of critical thinking and real scholarship.  (Bwahahahaha!)

Go44dad posted:
adbono posted:

I would never tell anyone to lower their goals. I am suggesting that the 2020 class get more realistic. MOST HS seniors are not ready to compete with 22 year old men under normal circumstances. Add another recruiting class to the mix and situation got WAY tougher - and not just for the next year! 

No doubt it got tougher.  We know the count/kids/current players. Worst case he transfers to a JUCO in 2021.  And that's not a bad outcome.

Or who knows, maybe a professor lights a passionate flame for the liberal arts and it leads to a lifetime of critical thinking and real scholarship.  (Bwahahahaha!)

Sending you a PM 

What are the academic requirements for a player that decides to come back for another senior year? It seems the education part of the conversation is not even mentioned. In the higher academics, I would hope that most seniors were on track to graduate in May and move on. Now what do they do, go take some meaningless classes just to play ball? Or try to get into a graduate program they had not planned on doing? Do they have to go to classes in the fall? I would think this might apply to most lower level D1s as well. 

Depends on the program.

Some schools like UVA requires their seniors to graduate in 4 years and they take 15 hrs/semester.

Other schools only have the players carry 12 hrs and that "buys" the school another year of tuition, so a 5 year plan.

So a lot of the guys, unless they're at schools like UVA or Ivy, have remaining hours needed in order to graduate after playing for 4 years.... unless they came in with AP classes or college credits or did summer school. 

Eokerholm posted:

Depends on the program.

Some schools like UVA requires their seniors to graduate in 4 years and they take 15 hrs/semester.

Other schools only have the players carry 12 hrs and that "buys" the school another year of tuition, so a 5 year plan.

So a lot of the guys, unless they're at schools like UVA or Ivy, have remaining hours needed in order to graduate after playing for 4 years.... unless they came in with AP classes or college credits or did summer school. 

Exactly right!  Especially if a player has a demanding major. At the top 100 D1 programs very few players graduate in 4 years. 

everypitch posted:

What are the academic requirements for a player that decides to come back for another senior year? It seems the education part of the conversation is not even mentioned. In the higher academics, I would hope that most seniors were on track to graduate in May and move on. Now what do they do, go take some meaningless classes just to play ball? Or try to get into a graduate program they had not planned on doing? Do they have to go to classes in the fall? I would think this might apply to most lower level D1s as well.

 Outside being a waste of money a player could do the following. Take twelve of the easiest credits available in the fall. Don’t bother with class in the spring, play baseball and walk away when the season is over. 

A friend’s son said once one of his teammates knew he was going in one of the first two rounds (went in the first) he stopped going to class spring of junior year at a high academic.

Last edited by RJM

You can declare that you are seeking a different major at most universities and take classes leading to that.  It will cost you but the right advisors at P5's especially can help you take candy classes in the fall for minimum and I know a couple of guys who said they were wanting to take PE classes to work to sports administration from a business degree.  A couple of easy business management classes added in and there you go.  Two semesters of candy classes.  It's according to how bad you want to play an extra year.


Fmr coach now Dad posted:

I can assure you that’s not how it works. Now if they want to change the rules they can but you can’t just take 3-4 “electives” and skate through. And you have to carry courses to be able to be eligible for baseball in season.

That's right.  I think that you have to declare a minor.  Schools are going to have to make their budgets go a long way and they are not going to accomplish that by letting players take 12 credits of electives or not go to class!

baseballmom posted:

"Candy Classes"???  What a waste of time & money! Somebody needs to reevaluate their 4 yr vs 40 yr plan! Baseball is/was a game & privilege for College athletes.  Start your career, become a professional...

jmo , off soap box

I am glad that you got on your soap box. I find it insulting.  It doesnt speak well for P5 or any advisors, these people work their butts off to make sure players graduate on time.

 

Fmr coach now Dad posted:

I can assure you that’s not how it works. Now if they want to change the rules they can but you can’t just take 3-4 “electives” and skate through. And you have to carry courses to be able to be eligible for baseball in season.

All a player has to do is say they’re adding a minor (an easy one) and select the twelve easiest credits available. A player absolutely can skate through a semester to get in that 5th corona year. He doesn’t even have to bother to attend class in the spring as long as he doesn’t have a coach who checks. 

I’m not saying it’s right. I’m not saying it isn’t a waste of money. I don’t endorse it. But it can be done. 

Last edited by RJM

There’s a difference between what should be done and what could be done. Above I explained how to exploit the system. With an injury year and five to play four my son left college with a BA and an MBA. One of his friends (high school classmate) was blossoming into an NFL prospect, stayed in college for a fifth year to enhance his draftability  and picked up a second major that related to his first. 

I frown on kids going to expensive D3 Crapola College just to play ball when their state university is a less expensive, far superior education.

Last edited by RJM

You have to and should go to class to be eligible. I would be cautioned if my coach didn’t care or I force academics. You’re there for an education too, if you aren’t or aren’t taking advantage of it you’re an idiot. Corbin benched guys for turning stuff in late or missing class. At UVA O’Connor told us, you get 3 absences or the teacher can fail you.

You have to be eligible to play. 

 

RJM posted:
Fmr coach now Dad posted:

I can assure you that’s not how it works. Now if they want to change the rules they can but you can’t just take 3-4 “electives” and skate through. And you have to carry courses to be able to be eligible for baseball in season.

All a player has to do is say they’re adding a minor (an easy one) and select the twelve easiest credits available. A player absolutely can skate through a semester to get in that 5th corona year. He doesn’t even have to bother to attend class in the spring as long as he doesn’t have a coach who checks. 

I’m not saying it’s right. I’m not saying it isn’t a waste of money. I don’t endorse it. But it can be done. 

Coaches check now. It’s not like when we played in the Stone Age 

adbono posted:
RJM posted:
Fmr coach now Dad posted:

I can assure you that’s not how it works. Now if they want to change the rules they can but you can’t just take 3-4 “electives” and skate through. And you have to carry courses to be able to be eligible for baseball in season.

All a player has to do is say they’re adding a minor (an easy one) and select the twelve easiest credits available. A player absolutely can skate through a semester to get in that 5th corona year. He doesn’t even have to bother to attend class in the spring as long as he doesn’t have a coach who checks. 

I’m not saying it’s right. I’m not saying it isn’t a waste of money. I don’t endorse it. But it can be done. 

Coaches check now. It’s not like when we played in the Stone Age 

Every day, rain or shine,  6:30 am academic advisor sends coaches a report.

RJM posted:
Fmr coach now Dad posted:

I can assure you that’s not how it works. Now if they want to change the rules they can but you can’t just take 3-4 “electives” and skate through. And you have to carry courses to be able to be eligible for baseball in season.

All a player has to do is say they’re adding a minor (an easy one) and select the twelve easiest credits available. A player absolutely can skate through a semester to get in that 5th corona year. He doesn’t even have to bother to attend class in the spring as long as he doesn’t have a coach who checks. 

I’m not saying it’s right. I’m not saying it isn’t a waste of money. I don’t endorse it. But it can be done. 

Regarding that corona year,  the NCAA gave the athletes another year of eligibility, not necessarily at the same program.  You won't necessarily be able to take candy credits just to go play baseball when everyone else is doing the same thing.  Coaches know and will reward those that think they can beat the system.

They will also take 6 freshman for 6 seniors. 

 

Some of you are on high horses with blinders on.  Open the eyes and look at SEC football.  Guys play 3 years and end up with 48 credit hours.  They don't even really go their senior year.  They register and go enough not to be dropped.  Baseball is no different some places.  We are talking about guys who have graduated and are trying to figure out how to cheaply stay another year to be eligible for a higher draft slot.  I'm not talking guys who are getting degrees in biosomething.  I'm talking the guy who is there for baseball and has graduated or only needs a class or two to graduate and wants to come back to give himself a better shot at the draft.  Those guys will take as few as they can in the fall and as easy as they can.  They will register in the spring and go enough to stay eligible.  I would say the coaches that are letting these seniors come back will not argue a bit with these players for doing it.  They know why the player is coming back and they know they are getting something for very little.  They are getting a guy who should have been drafted but was given a free pass to get an extra year to earn a living. 

My son is on schedule to graduate in 3 or at the most 3 1/2 so this gives him an extra year to get an extra degree if he doesn't get drafted after his now corona sophomore year, or corona junior year. 

baseballmom posted:

"Candy Classes"???  What a waste of time & money! Somebody needs to reevaluate their 4 yr vs 40 yr plan! Baseball is/was a game & privilege for College athletes.  Start your career, become a professional...

jmo , off soap box

Some guys 40 year plan is baseball.  They plan to play the game at the next level and then coach so this does fit into their 40 year plan.  Not everybody wants to be a doctor, lawyer, business owner.  Some want to continue in the game as long as possible and that is not a bad long-term plan.  I have three of those.  They may never get rich but they will love their job.

I know of 4-5 former players whose parents have been or are contributors on this site the last 18-20 years. All went on to Coach or other job in College or pro ball after playing days ended.  I assure you, they didn't take "candy classes". Hopefully you realize the number of  players who may have an opportunity at 40 yr career in baseball is minute.  Bottom line, most Seniors who are on target to graduate, should look long & hard on reality. This corona crap is a nightmare & has created a huge bottle-neck which will go on the next 2-3-4 years. And the draft is now an even longer shot...You know full well, or should...the "chances" in baseball are more scarce than ever for the foreseeable future! 

If someone wants candy classes, enroll in Culinary Institute of America!

Smokeinside I did not mean to be inferior to your field.   I have no idea what a sinesta is or know bio anything other than lately I feel like I am getting a minor in the medical field of diseases.  Baseballmom the topic was not guys getting degrees to coach but guys going back for an extra year to get to play one more year.   I’m saying if they have graduated and don’t want a masters they will and can take easy classes.  Btw, my son is one of those who coaches college and has a masters so I know what they go through.  But this is a very unique situation which will bring about unique decisions.  My statement was to the fact that none will take easy classes to play.  That is ridiculous.  Some will take enough to be eligible as football and basketball players do routinely.  

Last edited by PitchingFan
smokeminside posted:

How come when folks mention tough classes (biosomething) it’s ALWAYS a science course?

As an erstwhile English major I really resent it. Try writing a sestina and get back to me. 

People pay you to write a Sestina?   Looks like I found my new side hustle during “shelter-in-place”.

Just kidding.  Bored, and I couldn’t resist.

My new word for the day.  I will have to see if my former literature teaching wife knows what a sestina is.  I first thought it said siesta.  I knew I had that in my repertoire.  Can you write a sestina for Corona Baseball?  I'm intriqued now.  a poem with six stanzas of six lines and a final triplet, all stanzas having the same six words at the line-ends in six different sequences that follow a fixed pattern, and with all six words appearing in the closing three-line envoi. 

Then I had to look up what a envoi was.  You've earned my respect smokeminside.  Next time I want to talk intellectual I will use English majors that writes sestinas.  You taught me something tonight.  I know there are very few baseball players taking sestina classes their corona year after graduation to get by.

I'm not sure why the concept of taking easy classes is so controversial. On every visit/campus tour the major/classes conversation always came up. One coach said "I don't care if you major in physics or sororities, as long as you stay eligible and aren't overwhelmed with both, do what you like." Another coach suggested Parks and Recreation as a major, his players seemed to like that.

 I'm not entirely sure why it's a joke or insulting. If the classes are so easy and insulting to those who work hard - why does the school even offer them to begin with? A college will never not take your money. If you want to go back as a post grad and just take classes for the sake of taking classes nobody will stop you as long as the check clears. Clemson offers a Masters in Athletic Leadership. Duke offers an undergraduate degree in Canadian Studies. Penn State offers a degree in Turf Management. People pay 50k a year to major in a language when you can pay $80 once for Rosetta Stone. 

I'll tell you one thing. It might not be a wise investment or entirely practical, but that boosted GPA from the cupcake courses will reflect very well on both the coaches, the university, and on yourself if GPA ever comes up with a future employer. 

 

Last edited by PABaseball
PABaseball posted:

I'm not sure why the concept of taking easy classes is so controversial. On every visit/campus tour the major/classes conversation always came up. One coach said "I don't care if you major in physics or sororities, as long as you stay eligible and aren't overwhelmed with both, do what you like." Another coach suggested Parks and Recreation as a major, his players seemed to like that.

 I'm not entirely sure why it's a joke or insulting. If the classes are so easy and insulting to those who work hard - why does the school even offer them to begin with? A college will never not take your money. If you want to go back as a post grad and just take classes for the sake of taking classes nobody will stop you as long as the check clears. Clemson offers a Masters in Athletic Leadership. Duke offers an undergraduate degree in Canadian Studies. Penn State offers a degree in Turf Management. People pay 50k a year to major in a language when you can pay $80 once for Rosetta Stone. 

I'll tell you one thing. It might not be a wise investment or entirely practical, but that boosted GPA from the cupcake courses will reflect very well on both the coaches, the university, and on yourself if GPA ever comes up with a future employer. 

 

If you think turf management is a cupcake course I would encourage you to sign up 

PABaseball posted:

I don't, there is some legitimate science involved. But I also just went through three different school's programs. The overwhelming majority of the program does not revolve around that. Make it a graduate degree and get down to the science of it and you won't hear a word from me. 

No worries. I think we all have too much time on our hands 

Re: candy courses ...

I took a candy course each spring semester to lighten the load academically during the season. Geology 101 was known as “rocks for jocks.” Religion 101 was known as “praying for A’s.” Urban Studies 101 was known as “A’s in the hood.” There was always a poly sci professor who would give an A for condemning capitalism in your papers no matter how poorly they were written.

These were elective courses. They didn’t steer me away from a major in Econ with a concentration in Quantitative Methodology. I advised my kids to take one easy course during the season. My son had the same major as I. My daughter majored in Forensic Science with a minor in criminology and French. I used to tease her she was majoring in being Inspector Clouseau.

I was in college before academics for athletes was taken seriously. It was when athletes could just take twelve of the easiest credits they could find without working towards a degree. I’m against this. Athletes go into college thinking they’re going to turn pro. But it doesn’t happen for a large majority. Take advantage of a free, or in the case of baseball partially free education. 

I remember Irv Eatman went through UCLA without being able to read. A lot of his courses were taken for him. This is absurd at any  college. It’s incredibly absurd at an academic institution like UCLA.. 

Creighton used Kevin Ross. He finished four years of basketball with two and a half years of credit. He was functionally illiterate. He was humble enough to go back to second grade in his twenties and learn to read.

As everyone knows the rules on athletes and academics are much different now. But we all know one and done athletes aren’t busting themselves academically.

Last edited by RJM
RJM posted:

Re: candy courses ...

I took a candy course each spring semester to lighten the load academically during the season. Geology 101 was known as “rocks for jocks.” Religion 101 was known as “praying for A’s.” Urban Studies 101 was known as “A’s in the hood.” There was always a poly sci professor who would give an A for condemning capitalism in your papers no matter how poorly they were written.

These were elective courses. They didn’t steer me away from a major in Econ with a concentration in Quantitative Methodology. I advised my kids to take one easy course during the season. My son had the same major as I. My daughter majored in Forensic Science with a minor in criminology and French. I used to tease her she was majoring in being Inspector Clouseau.

I was in college before academics for athletes was taken seriously. It was when athletes could just take twelve of the easiest credits they could find without working towards a degree. I’m against this. Athletes go into college thinking they’re going to turn pro. But it doesn’t happen for a large majority. Take advantage of a free, or in the case of baseball partially free education. 

Taking one class per semester is not the same as taking 2 semesters of candy classes. 

Everyone knows that baseball players want to take the easy road, so that they can pass, not fail. Everyone needs a specific amount of electives if they are not taking a harder workload. But I am pretty sure that taking 2 semesters of candy classes when programs and parents pocketbooks are stretched to the max financially is gonna work.

JMO

 

RJM posted:

Re: candy courses ...I

I took a candy course each spring semester to lighten the load academically during the season. Geology 101 was known as “rocks for jocks.” Religion 101 was known as “praying for A’s.” Urban Studies 101 was known as “A’s in the hood.” There was always a poly sci professor who would give an A for condemning capitalism in your papers no matter how poorly they were written.

These were elective courses. They didn’t steer me away from a major in Econ with a concentration in Quantitative Methodology. I advised my kids to take one easy course during the season. My son had the same major as I. My daughter majored in Forensic Science with a minor in criminology and French. I used to tease her she was majoring in being Inspector Clouseau.

I was in college before academics for athletes was taken seriously. It was when athletes could just take twelve of the easiest credits they could find without working towards a degree. I’m against this. Athletes go into college thinking they’re going to turn pro. But it doesn’t happen for a large majority. Take advantage of a free, or in the case of baseball partially free education. 

I remember Irv Eatman went through UCLA without being able to read. A lot of his courses were taken for him. This is absurd at any  college. It’s incredibly absurd at an academic institution like UCLA.. 

Creighton used Kevin Ross. He finished four years of basketball with two and a half years of credit. He was functionally illiterate. He was humble enough to go back to second grade in his twenties and learn to read.

As everyone knows the rules on athletes and academics are much different now. But we all know one and done athletes aren’t busting themselves academically.

Not challenging here but could you have mistaken Irv Eatman and UCLA for Dexter Manley and Oklahoma State?  Manley's struggles with reading were well documented had not heard Eatman struggled with same.   Although my being from Oklahoma and a Sooner fan I can attest there are far more OSU grads/attendees who struggle with any type of intellectual activity far beyond Dexter Manley.  Just kidding...sort of...

 

Almost any subject can be worth studying if you approach it in a serious and focused enough way.  (Whether such study is worth $85k per year is another question...)  When I was in college, one of my favorite profs was a well-known religion scholar who every year would give a command performance of a lecture on the telephone book.  It was always well attended and was funny and surprisingly interesting.  The prof explained how it came about this way:  He was traveling and spent the night in a small town motel.  He had nothing to read, and the only books in the room were a Gideon Bible and the telephone book.  "Well, the Bible is work for me.  So I picked up the phone book."

                                            --Medieval literature major who ended up working as a lawyer for high-tech companies

I'm the one who called them candy classes and I know a lot of guys that take them in all sports in college.  Yes. I do believe there will be some returning seniors who will take them just to stay eligible.  Not my plan for my kids but it is done every year.  I just talked to my son at lunch about taking a couple of classes locally at a juco this summer to get ahead and maybe graduate in 2 1/2 years and get his masters while he is there since he wants to be a coach and most colleges require it to be a head coach.  Since he could now play for 5 years. 

We all know that you called them candy classes.  The issue is, you aren't an academic advisor, so be careful what you post, and when you do site where you got the info. 

RJM posted a good article. Everyone should read.

I think that it is unwise to assume coaches will honor a commitment passed what was in a signed legal document unless the player is exceptional.  Might be wise to ask questions before anything is done.  Coaches are not obligated passed their commitment. 

 

If you don't like what I write, then move on.  I don't know what your problem is.  You seem to think everything is a shot at coaches or your son, it is not.  I've never said anything negative about your son or a particular coach.  My original statement was there would be some returning good seniors who would like to increase their stock with the MLB by taking easy classes for another year to try to get drafted.  I don't know what is so argumentative about that.   I would guess half the people on here have taken an easy class at some point to get their degree.  As has been said, there are lots of guys that do that at almost all P5 schools in almost every sport and I would say at most schools except maybe the high academic schools.  I don't think most coaches would turn down a very good returning senior who wants to try to help himself and his team.  No.  They do not have to take them back and no one has said they have to but most will.  IMO. 

I did not know that we had to cite all radio programs we hear and relay on here.  I will make sure I document the station and the person and the DJ from now on for the record.   Would you like the time also.  AGain, I get on here to talk baseball and what is going on and relay things to others.  There are several articles and radio programs that have talked about the illegal recruiting that is happening at this time so I will send you a list as I hear them.  I don't know why that would surprise you.  I would be willing to bet that every day when you talk about there are 347 NCAA schools

www.athleticscholarships.net › division-1-colleges-schools
and there are 24 sports http://www.ncaa.org/student-athletes   Which accounts for 8,675 chances for coaches and others to mishandle recruits.  I know not all schools have 25 sports but to make the point.  There are probably 100s of illegal recruiting activities happening every day.  Not at any one single program but throughout the NCAA.  Most are just not reported.  So I don't know why you took offense to me saying someone said it about this time.  I have seen and heard them on numerous occasions throughout my coaching time.  On all levels of college and in numerous sports.  Some blatant and some minor. 
 
BTW, it is cite not site.  Cite is to quote and site is a place.  Just saying.
 
smokeminside posted:

Maybe instead of candy courses, we should just call them English courses?

 

Offered for your reading (dis)pleasure:

 

There were some bloggers of baseball

who wrote comments and gave them their all

some musings were cute-ish

while others felt brutish

but all hoped the virus would fall.

 

But can you write it as a villanelle?

I had never heard the phrase "candy classes" so I've learned something!  More power to any parent who wants to pay for a student to take such classes just to play more baseball.  I can't see the point, unless it was for the draft.  Are you telling me that in the cases where 8 seniors want to come back, that they all think they might get drafted?  I wonder how likely that is?

I understand the seemingly dumb goal of paying to go to college simply to have a Senior Season.  We have all seen Seniors get injured or lose a position battle so there is risk of things not working out at a significant cost.  

Unfortunately I know of a couple of 2016 HS Grads that have traveled strange journeys:

One-Went to a top rated DI JUCO.  Red Shirted his Freshman year.  Pitched thirteen innings his next year.  Transferred to a low DI college in the lower RBI rankings.  Ticked off a coach an pitched one inning as a Sophomore.  Technically has two years of eligibility and is still looking to play but track record probably scares coaches off.  Player throws 92ish but has zero command.  The parent is willing to foot the bill.

Two-went to a DIII JUCO.  Freshman year got hurt and red shirted.  Second year played well but the school was a weak school and the coach probably had little track record of getting players connected.  He was going to a DII JUCO and playing well.  The school has a track record of moving players to DI's so he may have gotten some good looks if the season had continued.  He is a hitter first position second player that probably can hit at DI but may be troubled to find a position.  JUCO cost are low but clearly the motives are to play baseball.  His father had no clue how the recruiting process worked in High School and Travel ball.  Then they jumped at the first JUCO with no understanding of the competitive levels or  how tough it is to get recruited out of a JUCO.  I encouraged him to play in the local Summer College Summer league for exposure and he had no idea it existed.  Just a real bad approach being recruited.  

From what I've seen of my son's former coaches they had successful Red Shirt Seniors that graduated and moved on rather than delay graduation or attend as Grad students.  My guess is if the coaches feel they recruited strongly they will move most Seniors out to clear a path for younger players.  The Seniors will have the opportunity to find other schools that have positional needs based on their track record.  I'm sure it will be hectic for all involved but it is not that much different than being recruited out of High School except the player has a validated track record.  I guess there could be challenges with applying to Grad Schools but I'm sure schools are going to bend a little if they have slots for students.  I feel bad for the players but nothing is guaranteed.  At least they have the opportunity to work a solution .

 

I get it but if the program didn’t recruit someone in junior or higher class that can throw above 92 with command, by that age, to give that spot to a corona senior or some transfer shame on them. My 17 year old can throw better than that and has sick command as do most of his team mates on summer ball. Plenty of young kids to come in and compete for that spot and they’ll win.

Tough conversations need to be had. Reality must be checked. 

I think the current situation just makes them all happen sooner. Or should.....

Last edited by Eokerholm

I think its constructive to focus on what percentage of seniors who will want to come back.   I found it interesting that an Ivy League senior with a job in the fall wants to come back (article posted in this thread) although ivy rules do not allow him to.  is that the norm?  I suspect the higher level of baseball the higher percentage.  are we talking 50% or higher?  curious of people's opinion and anecdotes.  the bigger issue id suspect are the juniors that will not be drafted adding to the log jam.  

Based on the article posted yesterday with quotes from coaches, all 8 of the seniors from the school my son has committed to are returning.  I think in most cases, the logical solution is probably to enter the workforce, but the emotional solution will have most wanting to return...especially if the season was going well when it was cut short.

GloFisher posted:

I think its constructive to focus on what percentage of seniors who will want to come back.   I found it interesting that an Ivy League senior with a job in the fall wants to come back (article posted in this thread) although ivy rules do not allow him to.  is that the norm?  I suspect the higher level of baseball the higher percentage.  are we talking 50% or higher?  curious of people's opinion and anecdotes.  the bigger issue id suspect are the juniors that will not be drafted adding to the log jam.  

I'd be willing to bet that senior knows it won't happen but if it did he would have to seriously think about it. But that really means he would have to seriously think about pursuing a graduate degree. So by not taking the job he would be have to make the decision to delay entering the workforce for two years so that he can get his masters degree. Oh, and while he's doing that why not play one more season of college baseball?

But he knows this will not happen as the Ivy League would have to open up athletics to ALL graduate students. Not going to happen.

The point is not that some student-athletes might earn an additional degree or qualification through an extra year of playing; that would serve a purpose, especially in an economy in which there may be no jobs for a while anyway.  The question was about parents who might pay for a student to take candy classes (which seem to be defined as "having no educational value" - although I'm not sure about that) just so he could play baseball.  But again, I guess if there are no jobs, doing that might be better than having the guy sitting in the basement playing video games.

Eokerholm posted:

I get it but if the program didn’t recruit someone in junior or higher class that can throw above 92 with command, by that age, to give that spot to a corona senior or some transfer shame on them. My 17 year old can throw better than that and has sick command as do most of his team mates on summer ball. Plenty of young kids to come in and compete for that spot and they’ll win.

Tough conversations need to be had. Reality must be checked. 

I think the current situation just makes them all happen sooner. Or should.....

With all due respect, I have never seen a 17 year old with sick command. Much less more than one on the same team. And I have played and coached at the college level. Been around baseball for half a century. Just saying, I know your son is an elite pitcher but c’mon man! 

They definitely exist. Not many but they do. Jupiter and Ft Meyers WWBA championships were littered with them. I can name 6. East Cobb Astros is stacked across multiple age teams as do a lot of the other national programs, Canes, Academy Select, Arsenal, Team Elite, etc. 

I think you missed my point.

If you recruit a kid that throws 88 and he isn’t throwing 92+ with better command after 2-3 years you didn’t recruit and didn’t coach well. He came to you throwing 88. With better coaching and mechanics, nutrition and strength and pitching coach you should expect and see improvement.

If not, my son, and others, like him will come in, compete, and earn those spots from those guys. 

If you aren’t getting better, you’re getting worse. Should always be improving - in baseball or in life. 

not being an A$$ or trying to

 

Last edited by Eokerholm
Eokerholm posted:

They definitely exist. Not many but they do. I can name 6. East Cobb Astros is stacked across multiple age teams as do a lot of the other national programs, Canes, Academy Select, Arsenal, Team Elite, etc. 

I think you missed my point.

If you recruit a kid that throws 88 and he isn’t throwing 92+ with better command after 2-3 years you didn’t recruit and didn’t coach well. He came to you throwing 88. With better coaching and mechanics, nutrition and strength and pitching coach you should expect and see improvement.

If not, my son, and others, like him will come in, compete, and earn those spots from those guys. 

If you aren’t getting better, you’re getting worse. Should always be improving - in baseball or in life. 

not being an A$$ or trying to

 

I’m a pitching coach. I know how it works. I know what gets kids recruited and what projects and what doesn’t. I help place the pitchers I work with in college programs. I pitched at a top 20 D1 program with 3 guys that had big league careers. I have also coached over 20 seasons of travel ball including national tournaments in Atlanta and Jupiter. I have seen a lot pitchers and some 17 year olds command the baseball pretty well. But never in all my experience have a run across a 17 year old with “sick” command. I have seen many more with “suck” command. So I stand by my comment. You sure that wasn’t a typo? 

Eokerholm posted:

They definitely exist. Not many but they do. Jupiter and Ft Meyers WWBA championships were littered with them. I can name 6. East Cobb Astros is stacked across multiple age teams as do a lot of the other national programs, Canes, Academy Select, Arsenal, Team Elite, etc. 

I think you missed my point.

If you recruit a kid that throws 88 and he isn’t throwing 92+ with better command after 2-3 years you didn’t recruit and didn’t coach well. He came to you throwing 88. With better coaching and mechanics, nutrition and strength and pitching coach you should expect and see improvement. 

Agree with the part about high school command. 

Disagree with the part about a velo jump equating to success. If you were recruited as an 88 guy and remain 88 for the rest of your college career but get outs that's not a bad job recruiting or coaching. Not every player needs to develop into a draft prospect for them to be successful. If everybody threw 92+ with command nobody would be able to hit the ball. Velo ≠ getting better, it just means throwing harder. 

Our Friday guy was 92 in high school. He is often 88 and a few times a game will bust one off at 92/93. He will be 88 the first pitch of the game and 88 his last pitch of the game in the 8th. He has great command and is still expected to be drafted in the 4th/5th this year. Just because a staff doesn't improve velo does not mean they didn't recruit or coach well. 

Nice. OK, we can just agree to disagree on the definition and nuance of "sick command" and the existence of those with it.  Not losing sleep over it. Your lens can be different from mine and that's OK. 

Are you saying when you guys go to college they don't or shouldn't get better? I wouldn't send one of my players or sons to a place where they wouldn't improve. Which, again, was my point - but go ahead and focus on "sick"..

This corona crap needs to end, baseball needs to come back.  Everyone has way too much free time, opinions on right/wrong, cake classes or not, and just overall too sensitive/defensive.

Reality is harsh, not always pretty and life will happen. 

Some day this will all be back to a "new" normal and happy to buy you a beer.

Moving on.

 

 

 

I will take you up on the beer! 

Of course kids should improve when they go to college. And most do, but it doesn’t always go the way HS players and parents think it will. I help coach a pro kid that went to a well known national program. He went backwards during his 4 years there due to LACK of coaching. In the college game I see lots of emphasis on conditioning and developing mental toughness of pitchers. Not near enough teaching about how to improve/correct the throwing mechanics. I have my own opinions as to why but the reality is that kids are too often left to figure it out on their own if they develop a bad habit - and pitchers fall into that just like hitters do. It’s part of the game. There is so much talent on the pitching staffs of top 25 programs that if one kid doesn’t produce its next man up.  HS players and parents assume they will get good coaching as they move up to the next level. But it’s not a given. Better do your homework. 

We can agree that we all have too much free time on our hands. 

Totally agree.

You're on. Happy to buy you a beer!

A lot HS parents, myself included, are/were clueless before doing massive research and asking around.


This site is a tremendous resource of people with incredible insights and experience to tap into. I wished I would have known about this site a year ago and that would have saved me a ton of time and research. 

Luckily for my son and my family we researched the heck out of programs, schools, coaches, rosters, etc when he was being recruited. There are a TON of moving parts and parts people don't know about or consider. 

I appreciate the viewpoints and inputs here and brag on this site to others when I talk to them and share our story and what my son and I did when he was researching schools and figuring out where he wanted to go in order to hopefully save them some time, head aches and money associated with recruiting, travel ball, showcases, NCAA calendars, etc. 

adbono posted:
Eokerholm posted:

I get it but if the program didn’t recruit someone in junior or higher class that can throw above 92 with command, by that age, to give that spot to a corona senior or some transfer shame on them. My 17 year old can throw better than that and has sick command as do most of his team mates on summer ball. Plenty of young kids to come in and compete for that spot and they’ll win.

Tough conversations need to be had. Reality must be checked. 

I think the current situation just makes them all happen sooner. Or should.....

With all due respect, I have never seen a 17 year old with sick command. Much less more than one on the same team. And I have played and coached at the college level. Been around baseball for half a century. Just saying, I know your son is an elite pitcher but c’mon man! 

I have no doubt your son at this age, level, and team is one of the better players currently.  However,depending on where he goes for the next level it is difficult to predict how well a college freshman will perform (assuming not a 1st/2nd rounder).  I've seen highly recruited, touted, accolade packed prospects arrive freshman year and for whatever reason they couldn't perform at D1 level.  Every P5 and high/mid D1 programs have players from all over the country, all equally great during their high school careers, and yet only 12-14 will see any meaningful playing time.  If your kid is that good, I would say bring it on, he will beat out any player is his position freshman - Rsr.  I would feel a little sorry for those Corona Sr's who my son takes their position away from them (j/k).   JMO

Last edited by TheMaskedPlayer

https://www.americanpress.com/...e2-d601b74b4937.html

What I think is going to happen is that scholly's will be expanded for 1 year to accomodate the influsx of 2020s and existing schollys, but roster limits for returning Juniors down to Freshman will still be limited to 35 to maintain as much fairness as possible (many D1's aren't fully funded now.)

Then, this summer they are going to pass the pending 1 time transfer rule for those in good academic standing without hesitation.  Existing walk-ons, incoming preferred walk-ons, and anyone committed 2021 and after, I would be prepared for the wild, wild west.

Eokerholm posted:

Nice. OK, we can just agree to disagree on the definition and nuance of "sick command" and the existence of those with it.  Not losing sleep over it. Your lens can be different from mine and that's OK. 

Are you saying when you guys go to college they don't or shouldn't get better? I wouldn't send one of my players or sons to a place where they wouldn't improve. Which, again, was my point - but go ahead and focus on "sick"..

This corona crap needs to end, baseball needs to come back.  Everyone has way too much free time, opinions on right/wrong, cake classes or not, and just overall too sensitive/defensive.

Reality is harsh, not always pretty and life will happen. 

Some day this will all be back to a "new" normal and happy to buy you a beer.

Moving on.

 

 

 

I have a sneaky feeling your dose is about to arrive in the coming months!!

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