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The recent contract given Roy Halladay is a good example of how an inexperienced Agent can hurt you. Despite back loading the deal for the teams' benefit Greg Landry, who did most of the work on Halladay's deal & hadn't done a large deal like this before, failed to negotiate even a deferred signing bonus into the deal.

Why is that important?

#1) In Halladay's tax bracket he will pay the highest tax rate(approx. 40%) on all income both in Canada & the US. Taking only $2 million in a Signing Bonus(in a back loaded $42 million deal he should have gotten $5mill.-$6 mill. if he took a deferred bonus)would have saved him at least in excess of $500,000 a lot of money even when you sign for $42 million.

How would that save him anything? In Canada Signing Bonuses are taxed @ only 15% & in the US there is no Social Security witholding on a Signing Bonus.

#2) Signing Bonuses are paid in a lump sum salaries are paid in incremental payments. If Halladay took a Signing Bonus & invested it in almost anything, in addition to saving the tax money he would have earned money on his money.

For this he also had to pay Landry's commission. A bad deal anyway you slice it.
Original Post
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
VC

"You certainly do not know all the details of that specific deal."

What other details would you like to know?
Roy Halladay III Toronto Blue Jays 1/22/04. $42,000,000/4+A. 2004-2007. $6,000,000-2004; $10,500,000-2005; $12,750,000-2006; $12,750,000-2007. Plus: $75,000 for 1st and 2nd time All Star; $100,000 for 3rd and 4th time All Star; $250,000 for Cy Young; $250,000 for MVP; $50,000 for LCS/MVP; $100,000 for WS/MVP; $50,000 for Gold Glove. Player will donate 1/4 of 1% of annual salary to Jays Care Foundation. NTP. SGP.

"Why do you need to cut down another mans situation in public? I just wonder!!!!!!"

Trying to give info. to the readers of the board to beware of the ultimate cost of working with an inexperienced Agent.

TRhit
PCX, There were 5 that I asked about. I have no experience with any of them other than checking some of their signings.

I don't feel that any agent who is good needs to bad mouth another agent. He just needs to show what he can do for the prospective client. I have listened to a few bad mouth others and it makes me think that they are insecure in their own ability.
I for one, am fascinated by the information being given here. I want to know about agents making 1/2 million dollar mistakes. I see people missing the point and attacking the messenger instead of appreciating the information. We don't hesitate to knock a second rate showcase company on this site. Why not knock a second rate agent? I want to know.

"I love the HSBBW"
BIGHIT


Me amd me only speaking here but I find it a bit uncool for a self proclaimed "agent" who does not tell who what or where is he is to sit and bash another individual in his profession--he is a supposed professional--- those on here are critique showcases are parents not showcase people.

Yeah it is interesting to read what he posts but when one gets to thrashing his competition I take exception.

Again as I say it is just my thoughts.

TRhit
I feel that there is a big difference between discussing a contract that is public knowledge and giving an experienced opinion based on that information, and just bashing someone by namecalling and innuendo.

I find it fascinating as to how deals are stuctured, how they can be structured, etc. One may not like the messenger, but I would prefer the information as to not having it.

I also believe that VC being new to the board is going through some of the same things that other new people go through. Though his style is rough and tumble, he is doing nothing more than I do when challenged. I feel that his style has mellowed and that he is trying to give information here. I have learned much.

TR, you have made it clear that you wonder about his motives and I respect that. I just do not happen to see it the same way that you do. My son is going through the process now and I like to read the information. My son probably won't be drafted, but I like the information.

It just appears to me that people are really opposed to the style rather than the accuracy of the information. Based on VC's knowledge of the deal and the fact that he is an agent would leave me to believe that he is qualified to point out what a bad deal is in his opinion. I also happen to believe that he made some good points about the deal. Fascinating stuff.

Though you may find it uncool, which is your opinion and I respect that, I would rather have the information than not.

Thanks

JMO

"I love the HSBBW"
quote:
Originally posted by voodoochile:

#1) In Halladay's tax bracket he will pay the highest tax rate(approx. 40%) on all income both in Canada & the US. Taking only $2 million in a Signing Bonus(in a back loaded $42 million deal he should have gotten $5mill.-$6 mill. if he took a deferred bonus)would have saved him at least in excess of $500,000 a lot of money even when you sign for $42 million.

How would that save him anything? In Canada Signing Bonuses are taxed @ only 15% & in the US there is no Social Security witholding on a Signing Bonus.

#2) Signing Bonuses are paid in a lump sum salaries are paid in incremental payments. If Halladay took a Signing Bonus & invested it in almost anything, in addition to saving the tax money he would have earned money on his money.

For this he also had to pay Landry's commission. A bad deal anyway you slice it.


Voodoo,

1) You cannot make that statement with any validity without knowing what would be taken away in the "out years" in return for the upfront bonus. You can only speculate.

2) I dont see how you could make that statement without knowing what Mr. Hallady's personal reinvestment rate assumption is.

3) I dont consider dodging US income taxes as the right thing to do.

4) Social Security taxes are not even a rounding error for Mr. Halladay.

These are just some observations on the financial aspect of the deal.
I am sure there are other aspects that havent been cited here.
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by TRhit:
First you said "It makes me wonder why you criticize what another agent and player have done. You certainly do not know all the details of that specific deal.Why do you need to cut down another mans situation in public?"

Well, I proved that you were wrong again regarding what I do or do not know.

Then you said "Me amd me only speaking here but I find it a bit uncool for a self proclaimed "agent" who does not tell who what or where is he is to sit and bash another individual ...Again as I say it is just my thoughts."

Just your thoughts? You can't dispute my facts or opinions so you have to attack me personally. It is obvious to anyone who has read the previous posts that anything I say pisses you off because I won't identify myself. Sorry you can't get past that but I really think you need to grow up.

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by itsinthegame:
Voodoo,

"1) You cannot make that statement with any validity without knowing what would be taken away in the "out years" in return for the upfront bonus. You can only speculate."

Taken away in the "out years"? First of all he signed for at least $2 million/year less than he could have gotten either through arbitration or Free Agency so to think he would have had to make even more concessions to get even a modest Signing Bonus is wrong.

"2) I dont see how you could make that statement without knowing what Mr. Hallady's personal reinvestment rate assumption is."

I'm assuming it's greater than zero therefore it's indiputable that he would have made something on the investment of his money had he gotten anything in a Signing Bonus to invest.

"3) I dont consider dodging US income taxes as the right thing to do."

Are you serious? It's not only the reason for the entire accounting industry but it's practically a national obsession to pay as little tax as possible.

"4) Social Security taxes are not even a rounding error for Mr. Halladay."

Soc. Sec. is 3.3% so if he would have gotten only half the Bonus he should have gotten i.e. $2 million he would save a mere $66,000. Might not be much money to you, but I'd rather see it in my clients' pocket if possible.

If you look at similar deals it's obvious that he should have gotten $4-5 million to sign. So when you add the savings on the Soc. Sec to what he could have gotten if he would have only put the Bonus into a Savings Account he obviously cost himself some significant money AND had to pay Landry for costing him the money on top of it. Like I said, a bad deal any way you slice it.
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Voodoo,

No offense intended - I think it is just pure speculation on your part.

If he wanted to structure the deal differently - it is very possible that the alternatives offered by the club may have been detrimental to him financially.

On the other hand - based on the numbers - it would appear that Mr. Hallyday wont be eating at the hot dog stand anymore. LOL
It will be interesting to watch the deals that are made between now and spring training. Will the players get the same type of deals as they have in the past few years? If Halladay's deal is as Voodoochile says "a bad deal", will the remainder of the new deals be for less?

With over 200 free agents out there, the quality agent will sure earn his commission this year. It will be a battle to get some good players anything more than an invite to spring training, let alone top dollars.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by itsinthegame:
Voodoo,

"No offense intended - I think it is just pure speculation on your part."

Basing my opinion on the other deals done this offseason for similar quality players. Technically yes it's speculation with research.

"If he wanted to structure the deal differently - it is very possible that the alternatives offered by the club may have been detrimental to him financially."

Halladay is the undisputed Ace of the Toronto staff as well as Arbitration eligible & a year from Free Agency. He was in a commanding position in this negotiation & should have been able to get pretty much whatever he wanted so I can't see him beingforced to accept bad terms...unless his representation wasn't as effective as it should have been.

"On the other hand - based on the numbers - it would appear that Mr. Hallyday wont be eating at the hot dog stand anymore. LOL"

Roy should be able to eat wherever he wants for the rest of his life & his children & grandchildren as well.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bbscout:
"With over 200 free agents out there, the quality agent will sure earn his commission this year. It will be a battle to get some good players anything more than an invite to spring training, let alone top dollars."

I think you're comparing apples to oranges here. Halladay is in the prime of his career & was offered Arbitration so he could have gone to a hearing. Can't compare him to someone like Maddux who despite having a great past is viewed as having a questionable present & limited future. The lesser FA's like John Burkett, Dave Veres etc. are more likely to be at the mercy of the teams at this point.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by pops:

You ask "How about Moorad, IMG (close-VanWaganen), Tellum or Sloane? Are they any good?" So you're asking for opinions right?

Then in another post you bash me for giving opinions by saying "I don't feel that any agent who is good needs to bad mouth another agent. He just needs to show what he can do for the prospective client. I have listened to a few bad mouth others and it makes me think that they are insecure in their own ability."

Is everyone who offers an opinion on this site " insecure in their own ability."? Or is it only me?

Re:the names you asked about:

Moorad brought TV cameras into the negotiation of Manny Ramirez's contract to get himself free publicity. Is that the kind of Agent you'd want for your kid?

IMG(close-VanWaganen) & Tellum/SFX represent a zillion players so it's not even a "small fish in a big pond" situation it's more like an amoeba in the ocean.

Sloane only takes a few clients so there are limitations there as well.

Just my opinion for what it's worth... usually 5%(LOL).
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