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53 replies

Is BBCOR good for the game?

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fenwaysouthfenwaysouth10,000+ posts
I like the BBCOR for one reason and one reason only....it is safer for the pitchers. The velocity off of the bat is less than previous bats, and it is more like wood.

I've seen 4 games so far, and the difference is noticeable to me. I'll see 4 more games this weekend, but I don't expect to be surprised.

Line drives will continue to hit pitchers, and that is a dangerous aspect to baseball. However, using bats that at least give the pitchers a chance to protect themselves is most important.
birdman14birdman141,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by fenwaysouth:
I like the BBCOR for one reason and one reason only....it is safer for the pitchers. The velocity off of the bat is less than previous bats, and it is more like wood.

I've seen 4 games so far, and the difference is noticeable to me. I'll see 4 more games this weekend, but I don't expect to be surprised.

Line drives will continue to hit pitchers, and that is a dangerous aspect to baseball. However, using bats that at least give the pitchers a chance to protect themselves is most important.


Fenway, we agree a 100% on this one. Son had a line drive hit at him in yesterday's game. With last year's bats he would have been hit. With the BBCOR bats he was able to get out of the way.

The ball still gets hit hard, just not quite as hard. That is a good thing.
06catcherdad06catcherdad1,000+ posts
I think they're a good thing, though I'd still prefer everyone go to wood. One of my former players now pitches for St. Mary's College, and he was hit in the face during a scrimmage. Coaches told me the ball came off the bat at 110 mph on the radar gun. Fortunately, the ball hit the bill of his cap before his face, and he only needed a dozen stitches to close the gash above his eye, and no other damage. It could have been a lot worse, and who knows what it might have been had the ball been struck by an old BESR bat? A couple weeks ago, my nephew hit a ball into the 4th deck of the parking garage behind left field at Sacramento State, which is a monster home run - so even with the BBCOR bats, when you hit it in the right place, the ball still flies a very long way.

I've talked to quite a few college players about the new bats, and the pitchers love them, the hitters are mixed. Some hitters don't like them at all, while the better hitters seem to have the attitude that if they hit the ball the right way, it still goes a long way and if they mis-hit it, it's just like when they're playing summer college ball with wood.

Scores are much lower, and pitchers seem to be pitching inside more aggressively. I think they're a good development in the game, and one that'll be around for the foreseeable future.
piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts
with the exception of going to wood, which I would wholeheartedly endorse.....the BBCOR is better for the game.....

Now that being said the BBCOR bat is still a powerful bat...we arent talking about going from rocket launchers to bed slats.....there will still be HR's and there will still be pitchers struck by batted balls....

Better hitters will still get hits.....

Now if we could just make sure these bats are tamper proof, Id be happy, but even wood bats can be corked,....

And as much as I would like to trust in the good nature of humans....Im sure there are some people out there trying to figure out how to tweak the bat beyond the BBCOR regulations....
Last edited by piaa_ump
N ne14bb10+ posts
Wishing for wood - like the way the game was made to be played may well be where the BBCOR comes into play.

Imagine the uproar if the NCAA just jumped from the trampoline (pun intended) bats directly to wood!

The BBCOR decision IMO is the correct progression and transition needed to what may well be back to basics in baseball which means back to wood in the years ahead.

With more and more feedback coming in that many players who are unwilling to ever like these bats, would rather just use wood - maybe the powers that be were smart enough to know if you mandate using a product that is similar to or only slightly better than wood, even if not equivalent to wood- you may ultimately find the unhappy majority willing to just use the real deal instead of the "wannabe woodbe" model.

Now that WOOD be a wonderful thing.

OK igotwood--somehow I think I set you up here?
AntzDadAntzDad1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by 2bagger:
Maybe ne14bb but I would guess that the bat manufacturers will fine tune these new bats so they can just keep selling us new $400 adjusted bats instead of just wood, hey but I could be way off..


lol, reminds me of the guy trying to sell me a $700 graphite fly rod that 'simulates the action of your old bamboo rod'.

"I already have a bamboo rod. And, it didn't cost $700!"
Last edited by AntzDad
observer44observer441,000+ posts
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Have watched games in the heat and IMO it seriously increases the velocity significantly, makes me wonder if the bats were tested in various tempratures.

Would agree JB...Have watched a bunch of games...much smaller sweet spot, but hit quare it moves...hitters will have to increase their skills...game is slower in the field and generally faster on the clock...pitchers are once again attacking the zone...running game is big...great deal more bunting runners over (Augie was far ahead of his time)...no more 500 foot mis-hits...more outfield strategy as they are not simply positioned at the warning track...infilders are back in play, particularly 3B's who have been wickets for years...on the other hand will this decrease their infield reaction times?

Would echo being thankful, mine got hit flat in the back of the skull with a rocket a few weeks back, certain it would have done major damage or worse had it been the old bats.

Last edited by observer44
P Prime91,000+ posts
quote:
Have watched games in the heat and IMO it seriously increases the velocity significantly, makes me wonder if the bats were tested in various tempratures.


That's physics at work my friend, warmer thinner air results in faster/further baseballs no matter what they are struck with.

I've watched 16 games to date; homers well down in numbers. The guys that should hit them are hitting them. The resulting game is better!
Last edited by Prime9
observer44observer441,000+ posts
.
quote:
Originally posted by justbaseball: You sayin' "hotter" than the previous bats in warm weather?


NO, not by any shot...I am not an engineer...but beause in part I unofficially track exit velocities for a living, I think I have a pretty good handle on exit velocities...and it was sigificant.

Part of it certainly could be due to the physics of warmer thinner air, and certainly the balls will be different...but unless I am mistken might the physical charcateristics of the Metal change slightly as well...? And might different constructions, materials, and cobo's offer different rebound characteristics...?

gonyardgonyard10+ posts
I have seen a bunch of college games and the adjustment is striking. Outfielders are in, except on the legit power hitters, the dink hit is going the way of the model T, bunt hits are going up up up.

We will be seeing way more spectacular overhead catches in the outfield as there will be more and more playing in to take away hits. (I think)

I am wondering if there are any players out there that are willing to offer their opinions.
ILVBBILVBB1,000+ posts
The HS season is almost over. I have umpired about 40 games this year at the HS level. Additionally, I have seen about 25 D3 games.

For the kids which have matured to the point that they have the skills and strength; the BBCOR bats work just fine. Production numbers are down, but the game is substantively the same.

However, for the Frosh/Soph kids (under 16), I don't like them. The amount of offense is down materially. You can go for games without an extra base hit. I think the kids are not having the success that will keep them enthusiastic about the game. Also, I don't see how safety is being enhanced at this level of play.

I know that several of the national recreation leagues are mandating them for the 15u groups this summer. I don't like it and don't believe that it is in the best interest of the game.
L LJ3813100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by ILVBB:
However, for the Frosh/Soph kids (under 16), I don't like them. The amount of offense is down materially. You can go for games without an extra base hit. I think the kids are not having the success that will keep them enthusiastic about the game. Also, I don't see how safety is being enhanced at this level of play.


What they need is better swing mechanics not hotter bats.

The hot senior league and little league bats have hid a lot of bad swings and the parents and players thought because they were launching the ball everything was ok.

There dosnt seem to be many boys making the move to a heavier bat as they get older and are not ready to swing a -3 when the time comes.
L LJ3813100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by J H:
LJ3813- From what I've seen, the swing mechanics are just fine. The ball just doesn't go off of the BBCOR bats. And for kids 16 and under, the strength isn't there to make it go.


I've been off of work recovering from surgery and the bright side of that I have been able to go to all my sons High school games plus aroud 15 more.

I have filmed all the at bats of his games and the at bats for 6 other games. It's amazing what the swing mechanics look like at 120fps. I asked a player I knew what his teammates thought of the slo-mo video and his reply was it was a eye opening experience for most of them .
Last edited by LJ3813
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
quote:
Originally posted by GA SC Diamond:
home runs down by 35%


As they should be.


In your opinion, what is the right amount of HRs? Should it match the number per game as in the ML, or should it be more or less? Our HSV is hitting .4 of a HR per game and giving up .2 per game for the 1st 19 games of the season.
C catcher710+ posts
Safety seems to be the main concern here...right? Well after doing some math here is what I came up with. BBCOR bats have an exit speed roughly 5 percent less than BESR. Say the ball is hit at 100 MPH with a BESR bat. That equals 95 off of the BBCOR bat. 100 MPH equals 146.67 FPS and 95 MPH equals 139.33 FPS. Divide that by 60.5 and you get .412 and .434 seconds to react to a ball back at you. That is a .022 seconds difference. Do you really think that with a ball screaming back at your head that .022 seconds is going to make a difference?
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by catcher7:
Safety seems to be the main concern here...right? Well after doing some math here is what I came up with. BBCOR bats have an exit speed roughly 5 percent less than BESR. Say the ball is hit at 100 MPH with a BESR bat. That equals 95 off of the BBCOR bat. 100 MPH equals 146.67 FPS and 95 MPH equals 139.33 FPS. Divide that by 60.5 and you get .412 and .434 seconds to react to a ball back at you. That is a .022 seconds difference. Do you really think that with a ball screaming back at your head that .022 seconds is going to make a difference?


I disagree that safety is the main concern. It may well be what people SAY is the main, concern, but if safety were really the main issue, parents would have stopped Jr from pitching long ago, and that would have stopped the hot bats dead in their tracks.

Something else to consider in your math, is that not all BESR bats were equal. Someone paying $400 for a top of the line composite, then paying another $50-100 to get it rolled was not “normal”. Every player didn’t have that situation.
Last edited by Stats4Gnats
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
quote:
Originally posted by GA SC Diamond:
home runs down by 35%


As they should be.


In your opinion, what is the right amount of HRs? Should it match the number per game as in the ML, or should it be more or less? Our HSV is hitting .4 of a HR per game and giving up .2 per game for the 1st 19 games of the season.


My opinion is not that specific. My opinio is that the closer we get to the results that we'd have with wood bats, the better.

I don't beleive that, over time, the end of cheap off-the-handle doubles and fewer home runs will be the demise of kids interest in baseball. I played in wood bat days and we acceoted our abilities and our results just fine.

Hitting with hot metal bats introduced an artificial element into the game and everyone knew it. Reality will set in with the BBCOR bats and in just a few years, no one will be left playing college or high school that had any experience with the phony results of metal.

I think that will be good for the game. Hitters will still hit. Results will be more skill based.
PD PA Dino500+ posts
Catcher7,

The safety issue is not defined in terms of reactionary distance, it is the amount of energy the ball transfers into your brain when you get hit in the head. It also depends on the angle that it hits the pitcher's head and the location. Now, back in the BESR days, a bat left the factory in compliance having been tested in a laboratory setting. The bat then came to someone's basement or tool and die shop where it was either shaved or put in a linear roller boosting it's performance anywhere from 20 - 60 feet in distance. In the hands of a college or pro prospect, this was a dangerous lethal weapon. The BBCOR bat has provided evidence of the past prevalence of "cheaters" in youth and the college game.

According to North Carolina State coach Elliot Avent quoted in Baseball America, "The bats changed because people were cheating. Instead of punishing the cheaters, the NCAA changed everything about the bats, changed the rules. But we need to adjust, which mostly has to happen mentally. We've been early and under too often (with our swings), but that worked with the old bats. You'd be early and under and get the ball in the air, and a lot of the time it would go out. That's not happening with these bats, so we need to hit more line drives and be more gap-to-gap."

If I'm a 2012 looking to attend college on a baseball scholarship, I'm swinging a wood bat as early and often as possible.
F freddy775,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by catcher7:
Safety seems to be the main concern here...right? Well after doing some math here is what I came up with. BBCOR bats have an exit speed roughly 5 percent less than BESR. Say the ball is hit at 100 MPH with a BESR bat. That equals 95 off of the BBCOR bat. 100 MPH equals 146.67 FPS and 95 MPH equals 139.33 FPS. Divide that by 60.5 and you get .412 and .434 seconds to react to a ball back at you. That is a .022 seconds difference. Do you really think that with a ball screaming back at your head that .022 seconds is going to make a difference?


If the 5mph jump from 95mph to 100mph is insignificant in terms of comebackers: then why do MLB batters feel they can dig in vs. 95mph pitching, but have conceded that they're skeptical about being able to get out of the way of 100mph? fastballs?
F freddy775,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by freddy77:
quote:
Originally posted by catcher7:
Safety seems to be the main concern here...right? Well after doing some math here is what I came up with. BBCOR bats have an exit speed roughly 5 percent less than BESR. Say the ball is hit at 100 MPH with a BESR bat. That equals 95 off of the BBCOR bat. 100 MPH equals 146.67 FPS and 95 MPH equals 139.33 FPS. Divide that by 60.5 and you get .412 and .434 seconds to react to a ball back at you. That is a .022 seconds difference. Do you really think that with a ball screaming back at your head that .022 seconds is going to make a difference?


If the 5mph jump from 95mph to 100mph is insignificant in terms of comebackers: then why do MLB batters feel they can dig in vs. 95mph pitching, but have conceded that they're skeptical about being able to get out of the way of 100mph fastballs?

IMO, the reason is: A human's ability to read/react falls off rapidly with each additional increment of mph as you approach (and exceed) 100mph.
Last edited by freddy77
C catcher710+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PA Dino:
Catcher7,

The safety issue is not defined in terms of reactionary distance, it is the amount of energy the ball transfers into your brain when you get hit in the head. It also depends on the angle that it hits the pitcher's head and the location. Now, back in the BESR days, a bat left the factory in compliance having been tested in a laboratory setting. The bat then came to someone's basement or tool and die shop where it was either shaved or put in a linear roller boosting it's performance anywhere from 20 - 60 feet in distance. In the hands of a college or pro prospect, this was a dangerous lethal weapon. The BBCOR bat has provided evidence of the past prevalence of "cheaters" in youth and the college game.

According to North Carolina State coach Elliot Avent quoted in Baseball America, "The bats changed because people were cheating. Instead of punishing the cheaters, the NCAA changed everything about the bats, changed the rules. But we need to adjust, which mostly has to happen mentally. We've been early and under too often (with our swings), but that worked with the old bats. You'd be early and under and get the ball in the air, and a lot of the time it would go out. That's not happening with these bats, so we need to hit more line drives and be more gap-to-gap."

If I'm a 2012 looking to attend college on a baseball scholarship, I'm swinging a wood bat as early and often as possible.


So do you think that the drop in velocity in ball of the bat effects the damage on the brain a significant amount? I am just here to play devil's advocate. Nothing personal.

I am a 2011 grad that will be playing college baseball next year and I swing a wood bat whenever I can. One reason because like you said you need to get ready to swing BBCOR and another because my team plays all wood bat tournaments.
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