Is HS baseball in trouble?

FormerObserver

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High school baseball is likely the first team that you must outhit your teammates to win a spot. There is no EH rule.

The EH has no rule's, are common since. LOL

Son's HS coach was Great, Old school, and believed in playing the game the right way, with respect.

Being that he was old school, Did not neccesarily believe in Summer Travel Ball, are Showcases.
He believed if your good enough they will find you.
Son played HS ball, and politely said he was playing Travel Ball in the Summer. Did not ask for his Permission. It wasn't his choice, It was my son's and mine to make.
Nothing personal just the way it was going to be.

Son was the only one Drafted out of HS in his League.
Only one going to D1 on Scholly from his school.

So HS is very Important, But I believe Summer Travel Ball and Showcasing is very Important also.
Find that fine Balance between the 2.
Remember Though that HS ball come's first.
That's were you get your most Community Support. EH

I live in an area where our high schools have populations of 12-1500 students. In some schools 2-300 come out to try out for the HS team. Only a select few get to play, obviously.

What happens to the others? Their baseball career is over because our school population is busting at the seams?

Maybe this is why things have changed in certain areas?

HS baseball IS in trouble if we don't all accept reality.

Travel, elite, select, etc. baseball is here to stay.

Baseball outside of HS fall and summer teams should be viewed as an opportunity to improve your teams NOT as a detriment. Fewer high level HS fall and summer participants means other non-travel kids get a chance to showcase their talents and improve their skills. Use that time to develop your whole team and trust that the travelers develop on their teams.

Somehow, some way, major league teams can pull together 25 guys together into a team even though most of them haven't played on the same team throughout the minors.

Somehow, some way, colleges can send kids to different summer leagues in virtually all of the 50 states and they manage to do okay.

The last time I checked HS age travel teams don't play during the spring. Keep pretending that they aren't here to stay at other times of the year you just might see them pop up.

Is the goal another victory for good ole Main Street High or is it what's best for the kid? Why don't we complain when a talented musician leaves one school and transfers to a magnet school where he/she can receive superior training (no, I'm not suggesting magnet athletic schools)?

HS athletics exist for the benefit of the kids. Anything that benefits the school or coaches at the expense of the kids should be thoroughly examined.

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Is the goal another victory for good ole Main Street High or is it what's best for the kid?

I dont know I sort of went the route of what was best for the team. Old school I guess.

I vote for the elite and select baseball coaches to coach the highschool teams during the highschool seasons! Can you imagine the magnitude that highschool baseball would soar to? And no more having to travel a bazillion miles away and having to pay a bazillion dollars!!! Ohhh my!!!!

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I vote for the elite and select baseball coaches to coach the highschool teams

Talk about politics Oh my

Tiger Paw Mom makes a good point.

In Chicagoland the school population can be 3000-4000!

If the Freshman team takes 60 kid's for 2 teams (Freshman "A" and Freshman "B") what, indeed does happen to the late bloomer's? After Freshman year there is only 1 sophomore team with 30 player's.

In a perfect world the HS and Travel program's can work together. To a large degree that is on-going here in Chicagoland with the top HS program's and elite travel program's.

This still does not answer the question of what to do with a Michael Jordan baseball type who can't quite make the squad!

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If the Freshman team takes 60 kid's for 2 teams (Freshman "A" and Freshman "B") what, indeed does happen to the late bloomer's? After Freshman year there is only 1 sophomore team with 30 player's.

This actually happens? 30 kids on a team

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This still does not answer the question of what to do with a Michael Jordan baseball type who can't quite make the squad!

And this could happen very easily in the bigger cities.

Out of curiousity... Does anyone know of a player who did not play baseball as a freshman or sophomore in high school and ended up playing in college or pro?

There must be some, but I can't think of any off the top of my mind. I have seen freshman who were not very good turn into excellent players. But they were all still on a team when they were freshman.

Years ago our schools around here used to have freshman teams, JV and Varsity. No more, not sure why that happened but assuming the emergence of travel teams might have something to do with it. And lack of money. There are many parents here that feel that our school system should pay for baseball activities, yeah right!
My son used to tell me that many kids NEVER even came out to try out, because with a total of 28 players (JV and varsity combined) they were not going to waste their time. That's an indication to me, that something has gone wrong, somewhere.

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Out of curiousity... Does anyone know of a player who did not play baseball as a freshman or sophomore in high school and ended up playing in college or pro?

Yes, I could put you in touch with a kid who went D1 after being cut from JV his sophomore year. Politics are what they are. PG rated him an 8.5. No discipline issues whatsoever.

And to Will - putting the team above the welfare of the kids leads to 180 pitch counts. Can anyone dare justify that or throwing a kid both ends of a doubleheader? Come on, someone, justify it. After all, doesn't the team benefit?

I'm the living beneficiary of that thinking. Pitched complete HS games two straight days and finished a third on the third day. My arm was never the same even though I played college ball for a couple of years.

My Dad pitched two complete games in HS before college, then pro. Again, he said arm was never the same. Dad never stopped me because he was away.

But hey, the team benefited, didn't it? Guess how many alums and former teammates remember our efforts? Zero.

Neither of us is bitter because kids were expected to do that at those times. However, given what we know now, given my personal experience, I'll never let that happen for "the good of the team".

Clarifying - my father pitched two complete games in three days in HS. Sorry for the incomplete post.

I think many high school sports could conceivably be in trouble - we already read story after story about s****r and volleyball players in our area who forgo high school sports to play club, and with the growth of AAU, it seems basketball won't be far behind. The perception is that exposure is greater and scholarship opportunities increase with club sports, and maybe they're right. How many of us can say their high school coaches had much to do with the recruiting process for their baseball player? I think high schools have to re-think what the role of high school sports are for kids - for many it's a gateway to an opportunity that they may otherwise not get.

On a side note - we had a female volleyball player receive a full athletic scholarship to a Div I program. She did not play her junior or senior year with the high school. But boy has our athletic department made publicity hay with that one... even though they had nothing to do with her recruitment or eventual signing, other than being there when it actually happened. Kind of funny, in a sad way.

There are no doubt funding issues. Coaches' salaries aren't very good at all in our area...it works out to less than a $1/hour. And our local public HS (in an upper-middle class area) has only 3 paid baseball coaching positions for the entire program. Some of the better coaches are now private instructors and/or summer elite program coaches. More money in that than HS baseball.

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I think many high school sports could conceivably be in trouble - we already read story after story about s****r and volleyball players in our area who forgo high school sports to play club...

That is in fact the model that some parents are watching and contemplating copying for baseball...at least where I live. So we could indeed challenge ourselves to name a single American pro or high-level college player who didn't play HS baseball and have difficulty thinking of one. But many are wondering if it will be easy to answer that question in 5-10 years?

Let me make something else clear as I was chatting with a good friend today who runs one of the nation's very best elite summer programs. I am NOT anti-elite summer baseball. My son benefitted greatly from it and we are tremendously grateful for the opportunities it brought. But I am a HS sports fan..a "hometown" sports fan, pure and simple, and I hope that OUR sport does not evolve into the European elite club s****r model...something that is intruding into and taking away from HS s****r in my area.

Bottom line, I don't they should ever become exclusive of each other and I think there's a place for both kinds for even the very best (elite) player and I think maintaining BOTH is very good for the health of baseball in America. Just my humble opinion, nothing more.

Here in the Northeast you have no choice but to play baseball during the spring HS season---during the HS baseball season you cannot play outside of the school program--you play travel ball after the HS season ends

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I think there's a place for both kinds for even the very best player and I think maintaining BOTH is very good for the health of baseball in America.

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So we could indeed challenge ourselves to name a single American pro or high-level college player who didn't play HS baseball and have difficulty thinking of one. But many are wondering if it will be easy to answer that question in 5-10 years?

We can we go either way and that is the scary part. High school baseball and elite teams are as different as night and day. Both are very important but for different reasons.

JBB I agree with you and like your son, my son benefited from an elite summer program too --
but he didn’t abandon his high school baseball for the summer team. When high school baseball was in progress, he was focused on high school baseball. Many will disagree but high school baseball was pure baseball with vengeance and rivals, bragging rights, and being recognized for winning. High school baseball was a challenge separate from his elite summer team and the showcases. Matter of fact we downplayed the summer team because I thougt it would make the high school team seem less important and I didn’t feel that way. High school baseball was very important to him and to me. I worked my tail off so our high school baseball team could prosper ---- and it did. Our experience was similar to TPM’s with a freshman team, a JV team, and a varsity when my son played. We even had JV and freshman tournaments. Today we have a varsity and a JV team with players playing on both teams at times. High school baseball seems to be losing ground. One thing bothers me. I hear a subliminal message in many of the posts. That message says: “We play baseball so my son can get to the next level and high school baseball doesn’t deliver like the summer teams and the showcases.” I agree but with my son except I never looked at high school baseball as a vehicle to get to the next level. Sometimes I even felt as if it may have hurt his chances but it was worth the risks. I have actually said my son went to college to play baseball in spite of having played high school ball. There will always be a next level no matter where you play from “T” ball to professional baseball. When a player steps on the field he is there for the game and nothing else. He’s there to kick butt. Like they say: ” Dance like no one is watching, love like you've never been hurt, sing like no one is listening, live like it's heaven on earth, and play baseball for the sake of playing baseball.(at least in high school)
Fungo

As usual, Fungo has a very good post.

Every spring when I scout leading up to the draft and make decisions on players, it is in High School ball that the decisions are made. Summer programs help me find the players that I will watch the next spring in High School ball. That has never changed and I don't see it changing now. Players get noticed in summer ball preceding their Senior year in High School, but they get drafted after we watch them in High School ball.If you want to play pro ball after High School, you had best play High School ball.

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If you want to play pro ball after High School, you had best play High School ball.

Not that it really needs any emphasis, but it seems there are a few that can use that advice.

BBScout is right. The professional scouting activity is like a "beehive" during the senior year of high school for draftable players. On the first day of spring PRACTICE of my son's senior year of high school there were 12 scouts attending that practice. I'll never forget that day. I arrived early to practice and I saw the congregation of men in the parking lot and I thought there was some sort of meeting at school. I asked the coach what the meeting was about and he told me those were pro scouts to see my son. I knew my son would be scouted but this show of force caught me totally off guard. I said something like: "You're shi***** me aren't you? He wasn't.
Fungo

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Here in the Northeast you have no choice but to play baseball during the spring HS season---during the HS baseball season you cannot play outside of the school program--you play travel ball after the HS season ends

That is part of the problem here in California, TR. Some high school coaches don't think kids should play anything EXCEPT high school ball.
Some high school coaches support their kids playing travel ball in summer, but others fight them tooth and nail, and force them to make choices while using their position as the HS coach to bully the player.

Forcing people to make an either/or choice is going to lead to the demise of high school baseball's level of play if anything can do it. If people were free to play travel ball in the summer without high school coaches pressuring them to stay away from it, you wouldn't see the conflicts and I don't think you'd have people wondering about travel ball expanding to the spring.

06

We even have rules pertaining to HS coaches coaching their players out of season---

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Originally posted by FormerObserver:

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If you want to play pro ball after High School, you had best play High School ball.

Not that it really needs any emphasis, but it seems there are a few that can use that advice.

Not everyone is looking to be drafted out of HS.

In North Carolina, in general, I believe HS ball is alive and well. The participation is very good if you take into consideration the other participation options available to the marginal player today; like s****r, hockey, extreme skating, and such. We don't have a lot of pull from the HS coaches to play on their summer teams as I believe there is a NC High School Athletic Association rule that a HS coach can only have a max 8 of his players on a summer team. That keeps down some of the pressure. I also believe the rec ball in our area is a strong as ever. There are more teams now than 6-7 years ago. Maybe many of the more advanced players play travel ball but their places have been filled by new stars (even if they aren't quite as good as the player they replaced). As for my son, he really enjoys HS and travel ball. In travel ball he gets to compete against the best players in the region and state, in HS ball he gets to represent the community and play against his "old" travel ball teammates. As for the coaches, I have seen the good and bad on both sides. There are HS coaches that are excellent and some that need more dedication and experience. In travel ball there are those that have more knowledge than they could ever transmit and those that are in it for the money or just plain have "agendas". Also, all in all, most travel ball teams are respectful of the HS season. Either not starting until the season is over or telling their players that HS is first until the HS season is over. Hopefully there is room for both HS and travel.

PGStaff,
In response to your question about a player who didn't play HS ball as a freshman or sophmore, and went on to play pro ball, I believe the answer is Curt Schilling. I heard from one of his youth coaches that there were issues with the HS coach. I'm not sure of the details and I could be wrong.

TR, California could probably benefit from some restrictions on HS coaches coaching their players out of season. We have conflicts not only with HS coaches wanting their players to play primarily or exclusively with them in the summer, we also have football coaches expecting their football players to focus primarily on football during the short spring sessions, and especially summer football. Spring football is a couple weeks long, and baseball players rush from their baseball game or practice to get to the football field, and during July they have to be at passing league, or get penalized during the fall. We haven't even discussed basketball or s****r.

I see part of the problem being that our HS coaches are allowed to use their position to pressure the kids to focus on their particular sport. We have conflicts between high school coaches who each want the kid at their respective sport during the summer, baseball, football and basketball each pulling for more time from the player. Toss in travel ball, and these kids are put under too much pressure to be in several places at once.

A couple notes after reading this thread. Jerry- Larry Bowa never made his high school team in Sacramento. Doug- There is no question that the senior year is the most crucial. I would add that it is because it's the closest to the draft. Pitchers are the easiest to bear down on. Great hitters get pitched around so much that it is very difficult to get a great reading on a HS hitter. Dan- I've been fighting this problem since 1992 when I started NorCal. Two of the biggest challenges were from Jesuit and Bellarmine (nationally ranked programs). Both coaches have a different outlook at this time (at least for now). Most high school coaches don't get what we do because they don't come out and watch the best programs. The real problem is that there are too many garbage summer and fall teams that do no teaching and are the stereotype of "travel ball". That sickens me as well.

I don't know if there is an answer but I know that I'm going to be meeting with some prominent HS coaches in the next few weeks to come up with a plan to help improve baseball in my little area of the world. We have to do a better job as a baseball community. That includes helping inner-city kids reach their goals through baseball. Time to stop talking and start acting. A little challenge for everybody.

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Kudos Rob...

That's why your programs work so well:

- Because you see the big picture
- Because you go the extra mile
- Because you are willing to get dirty.

- But more importantly, because you care.

The parents and the kids can feel that.

44
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44,

I will second that!

Ditto! NCBall - a great job,and many a player out there appreciates it!

As the parent of a player from your 2006 summer teams, I'll third that

CADad:

Curt Schilling went to Shadow Mountain High School in Phoenix, which is not far down the street from me. The school has a respectable, but not great baseball program and has had many, many coaches over the years. Schilling is by far the best baseball player from the school, although the NBA's Mike Bibby is a Shadow Mountain grad as well, along with several Olympic swimmers. I have never heard that story about Schilling at Shadow Mountain. It would surprise me if it is true, but even if it is, it is a big enough school with enough good athletes to make it difficult for any sophomore to win a spot on the varsity.

Rob, we need to talk on the phone. I discussed this very topic with a couple of your coaches at one of your tournaments this past June. Perhaps if we coordinated our efforts in our respective geographic areas, some good can be done along the lines of which you speak.

There are some excellent high school programs who's coaches are coming around to the summer ball concept, but the ones who fight it make it difficult for everyone, their own players more than all others.