Is "It" Talent or Skill?

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Originally posted by ClevelandDad:

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Originally posted by OnePlayer'sPop:
RJM,

I love your post!

But...(don't ya'llins just love that part) you forgot to mention the part that zombywoof mentioned when he referred to "...attitude and willing to work hard..."..

THAT is what separates the NEXT level at EACH level and in many(most) instances it is fleeting!

This is always an interesting conversation but the answer is that it (talent) is always a combination of natural ability (genes) and skill development. How do I know this? Why do the majority of baseball players come from California, Florida, and Texas? Is it because the gene pool in those states is talent rich? I think not. bbscout was the first one to identify this in my mind. He suggested some kids in California had 3000 or 4000 more at bats than someone comparable in the northeast when they enter college. That is a huge disparity.

Baseball genes are spread equally throughout the US population and across every state. The opportunity to develop is not. Same thing in other sports as well. Why do more hockey players come from Minnesota or the northeast rather than say California, Texas, or Florida?

I disagree slightly with your assessment of baseball genes being spread equally, and that the extra at- bats are the main difference.

Obviously, more at-bats can increase skill level, but it is no guarantee, as we all know.

Here is another theory.

It would be fair to say that there are many great athletes that gravitate to CA, TX and FL because of the weather. Whether it be college or pros or Olympic athletes, more of them tend to move to and live in the warmer climates. They tend to stay there, maybe marry someone who also may have an athletic background, have children who then gain the genetic advantage as well as the ability to train year-round. This has been going on for at least 2-3 generations, maybe more?

This is not to say that other areas do not produce great athletes. In fact, the parents, grandparents of many warm-weather athletes are from the Midwest, Northeast, etc.

This is not unlike the theory that says that taller, athletic people earn more money, get more promotions, etc. Their children will then inherit not only those genes, but will also inherit the additional opportunities that their parents wealth creates for them.

If you look at the large number of great athletes whose children also became great athletes,(Bonds,Griffey, Mannings,etc), is it the genes or the environment?

I'm not an anthopologist, but I do believe that there is much more to this than just extra at-bats and good weather.

Welcome other comments!

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4000 additional potentially "flawed" at bats do nothing except fill a stat sheet.

No kidding. You seem to be animated by certain things. No one ever said imperfect practice makes perfect - only a knucklehead would suggest that.

I cited bbscout for my number (three to four thousand) and perhaps you know more than all the scouts out there. You never answered the other part of my assertion - why don't all the hockey players come from the same warm-weather states? Obviously, skill development has nothing to do with it

Btw, I have seen you argue more than once that getting on a highly competitive travel team is important. If all it takes is tee work, soft tossing, and bp with wood - why bother?

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
Btw, I have seen you argue more than once that getting on a highly competitive travel team is important. If all it takes is tee work, soft tossing, and bp with wood - why bother?

Exposure

Guess removing useless input is best.

In America, all States are exposed to baseball, especially in the northern and eastern regions where the original MLB teams were located?

One of many fascinating subjects here to me.

The question is clouded by perspective.

As the boys are growing up, the talented boys that succeed are seen as not working.

The boys with less talent that work hard gain some success, but, they bear some resentment toward the more talented because it appears their success is unearned.

In the brief time I have been fortunate to observe the minor leagues, one of the things that sticks out the most is the abundance of those talented players who demonstrate the work ethic that we often attribute only to the less talented.

Talent and work ethic are not mutually exclusive traits as some would like to believe.

The players with the talent AND work hard will be successful.

So, hard work is the answer for the young players whose talent level has not been fully developed.

I don't think the 3-4K holds true for everyone. Those with high draft slots are closer to it than others, their age may be the determining factor.

I remember getting out of what bbscout stated was that was what milb gauges before a player might be ready, and position players may be better off doing that time in college rather than in the low rookie leagues.

BTW, something very interesting I have seen, some college players get higher picks who were not power hitters, rather very disciplined with pitch selection and knew how to work each pitcher to the full count, over those who were HR hitters but not disciplined.

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Maybe it has to do with what kids are used to growing up with. In America, all States are exposed to baseball, especially in the northern and eastern regions where the original MLB teams were located?

Same with hockey.

Why isn't Ohio producing about the same number of pro or D1 baseball players as Florida which has a comparable population size? Interestingly enough, I would argue that most of the gene pool in Florida is from the northeast (NY, NJ, PA, Oh, Mich, and Ill). If we trace that back, we will find that Europe (poland, russia, ireland, italy, germany, GB, and so forth) is probably a good place to find the athletically "gifted" gene pool for baseball.

Not sure what we are arguing about. All I know is you made a really big deal out of the number I cited.

If what you are arguing is really about "upside" then where you grew up is irrelvant imho. Justin Morneau an AL MVP grew up in Canada.

I think an important advantage of growing up in the warm weather is that it makes it easier to project. Does that mean the "projectible" player will turn out to be the best? Of course not, imho.

I agree with BUM.
The reason Canada produces so many great Hockey players is the weather but also the sub structure that has built up over the years. Our minor hockey systems are the best in the world. The nation has adopted Hockey as its national sport. There are more hockey arenas here than BB parks. Talent is recognized at very young ages and all the way up the ladder. As kids develop they are recruited into the top teams with expert coaches. Skills are developed and talented kids usually with hard work become the most skilled.
The most exciting Hockey player I ever saw was a kid named Bobby Sheehan from Boston. He had more talent than anyone I ever watched. He also was the most undisciplined and never lasted in the NHL. He was an example of a guy who didn't have to work as hard as others and still showed amazing skills.

Can't speak for any other state, but if you watch rosters you will find huge numbers of hispanic players, who come from families that live and die for baseball more than anyone I know. These kids are extemely talented and make for good competition, which in turn makes everyone else more competitive. Do they have better genes?

TPM I have seen lots of Hispanics that are not stellar BB guys. 2 tried out for our HS team a few years back and they didn't come close. Also seen this in college with players from the Academy of BB.
I think they get great exposure and a deep passion for the game. They also have good motivation to make it in BB.
I have never believed genes show up in all your offspring but maybe in some. There is also the deire factor.

A couple of years ago on one of ESPN's talk shows the roundtable discussing was where athletes from different sports come from. It followed a week where Barry Larkin mentioned on a baseball broadcast while discussing blacks and baseball, he couldn't get his son to play baseball. His son said it isn't cool for brothers to play baseball. His son plays basketball.

In the conversation John Saunders brought up motivation. Saunders was a major college athlete. He's also made a ton of money working for ESPN and ABC. He said his kids have the physical talent. They play high school sports. But they don't have the motivation or passion to do the work to get to the next level due to the living environment they've been handed. He didn't say spoiled. He implied it.

Motivation is the main factor that drives kids to develop their talent .

"Hard work will beat talent IF talent does not work hard."

That saying has been around a long time.

Well I have seen lots of hispanic young players who were very good as young players from around here, some have been successful and some not. A lot has to do with our culture, not sure if that is another reason why you will find lots talent. Sometimes it's not how much yuo play, but who you play.
My point was that growing up here son had lots of excellent competition to play against even as a youngsters 8-10.
FWIW, we've had many picks here (out of HS) who have not yet made it to MLB as yet where I have seen others from around the country move farther ahead. My beleif is it is because of the exposure and being top talents in the country at the time of their draft. Many kids also went onto good D1 schools where their baseball careers ended when school ended.
JMO.

Interesting observation about Hispanic players.
But, it just goes to prove my point about geography and genetics.

If more kids from the Dominican Republic lived in Minnesota, then Minnesota would produce more and better players. They would find a way to work on their skills, regardless of the weather.

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Originally posted by gitnby:
If more kids from the Dominican Republic lived in Minnesota, then Minnesota would produce more and better players. They would find a way to work on their skills, regardless of the weather.

Really

I guess us Northerners need a little baseball passion in our blood, should put the skirts away, and learn to deal with the cold.

Bring your group of Dominicans up here and we'll see how much they can work on their game from November til March. My guess is they'd get here and start a Dominican Bobsled team.

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Originally posted by gitnby:
If more kids from the Dominican Republic lived in Minnesota, then Minnesota would produce more and better players. They would find a way to work on their skills, regardless of the weather.

I dont believe that really. Part of the Dominicans drive for baseball is to escape the poverty from where many of them live. Their passion for baseball and that factor contribute to their success. If they lived here in America with all the distractions and three square meals a day and cold weather as in Minnesota I think you they might not be as good. JMO

Neil,

Should you be interested in having your son
be around those with baseball talent and skill and are good people, may I suggest a wonderful area in Madison, and readily near Lodi

At the Duck Pond

Cheers
Bear

Pretty easy to be driven to succeed at a game when you face everyday what many of those kids face. Plus how many go to college instead of pro ball? You can get them for a pack of nabs and a plane ticket and if they wash out you just send them back. If college baseball was not an option for kids in our country how many would be drafted that are not right now?

quote:

Originally posted by gitnby:
Interesting observation about Hispanic players.
But, it just goes to prove my point about geography and genetics.

If more kids from the Dominican Republic lived in Minnesota, then Minnesota would produce more and better players. They would find a way to work on their skills, regardless of the weather.

I am not sure of your point, but here's mine.

I remember at 13-14 a player in our league named Juan Hernandez. Juan was one of those kids who
could hit everything and fast as lightening, first time I remember scouts coming to games. You know how those scouts love those speedy hispanic players. People talked about Juan, he was the next first rounder.
Last I heard Juan ended up at Juco and that's all she wrote. But my point is that my player loved pitching to Juan and I am sure that because of that he got exposure from the many many scouts that work and reside here in South Florida. Those types of things contribute to why Florida produces top players, not year round baseball, exposure. I am not even going to say that we have the BEST players, just those that get lots of exposure, maybe those in other states do not. When our MLB area rep came here when son was a sophmore, he told us he had been watching him since he was in middle school.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the Cardinals and the Marlins draft many South Florida players. I could say the same for some others that I know who get drafted from here, with 11 organizations making this state their home for spring training, kids get LOTS of attention.