Just to explain. You can not give the necessary effort without things like desire, passion, drive, etc.
The skill cannot be lumped with talent. Skills are learned.
I think the lists include things that are important to be success but not necessarily in the order given. Talent is first for sure.
I think the lists include things that are important to be success but not necessarily in the order given. Talent is first for sure.
quote:BHD quote:
Talent exists and skills are learned.
I agree with BHD's statement 100% but would replace "learned" with "developed". While it's a minor play on words, developed has always meant to me that you are constantly building on a "skill set". An example would be that you don't learn strength, you develop it, and baseball skills are continually worked on as long as you play the game.
LL is a perfect test ground where we see talent winning over skill, and then that day comes where those who had worked on "game skills" pass by that kid who strutted at the top on talent only. I think we've all seen it happen at around 12 or 13 years old, and then years later we look back and it's pretty clear where that that "line of demarcation" occurred.
I can live with that distinction.
"LL is a perfect test ground where we see talent winning over skill, and then that day comes where those who had worked on "game skills" pass by that kid who strutted at the top on talent only. "
Definetly agree with the above, the younger ages seem to be more succesful for those who were born with "IT". run fast, natural athletic ability.
Where as for other kids they develop through constant practice of skills and agility.
Talent does have alot to do with success later, but how do the acadamies in Latin America figure into the picture?
Definetly agree with the above, the younger ages seem to be more succesful for those who were born with "IT". run fast, natural athletic ability.
Where as for other kids they develop through constant practice of skills and agility.
Talent does have alot to do with success later, but how do the acadamies in Latin America figure into the picture?
quote:LL is a perfect test ground where we see talent winning over skill, and then that day comes where those who had worked on "game skills" pass by that kid who strutted at the top on talent only
Not sure I agree with that. My son is at 14U and most of the skills guys are barely hanging on. The talented kids are taking over. They are gaining skills to go with their talent.
quote:Originally posted by dswann:
TPM. Break it down. What % of exposure compared to % of year round play compared with % of talent etc.. on why Florida produces top players.
How can I break that down?
I wasn't the one who originally stated that FL players are more talented BECAUSE OF YEAR ROUND BASEBALL OR BETTER GENES. In my own players case, his good genes included gorilla arms and ostrich legs, making it easier to stay loose, throw harder, but his skills were taught to him just like everyone else in the country id taught, north, south, east, west. His instructors may have had more baseball experience. I do feel that has lots to do with it. Not being a year round player until very late in HS, playing year round baseball and more innings didn't make him a better players because he didn't do that. In fact, I'll bet he played less baseball than most of his HS class.
Nor do I think that talent is more predominate here than anywhere else, talent is everywhere, just more opportunities to develop skills, more tournies, more showcases, more scouts running scout teams, more ex profesionals giving lessons, more facilities, etc. In other words as Fungo suggests, a combination of the elements that exist here. If some people say that the warmer weather impacts players development, that's ok. But it is not because the genes are better, or that kids get more at bats. It could be, because of the better weather and being able to be outdoors 365 days a year, that players are more athletic.
I understand that “skill” is something that relates to development and experience. What about this… Player A runs a 6.5 60, Player B runs a 7.5 60. A year later Player B works very hard to improve and runs a 7.0 60, Player A doesn’t work at it and still runs a 6.5 60.
Question… Who is the most “skilled” sprinter? How do we define “skill”?
Guess if we are talking about baseball, the reason I lump the two together is because Raw Talent by itself doesn’t equate to success. It takes Talent and Skill along with some other important things mentioned earlier (never forget luck)!
Don’t know if I’ve ever seen a player who is highly skilled but lacks talent. That talent might not be something obvious like running, jumping or throwing, but where there is a high level of skill, there is talent. IMO
I'm not really arguing, just driving down the highway with nothing better to do.
Should say, wife is driving!
Question… Who is the most “skilled” sprinter? How do we define “skill”?
Guess if we are talking about baseball, the reason I lump the two together is because Raw Talent by itself doesn’t equate to success. It takes Talent and Skill along with some other important things mentioned earlier (never forget luck)!
Don’t know if I’ve ever seen a player who is highly skilled but lacks talent. That talent might not be something obvious like running, jumping or throwing, but where there is a high level of skill, there is talent. IMO
I'm not really arguing, just driving down the highway with nothing better to do.
Should say, wife is driving!quote:Originally posted by Doughnutman:
Not sure I agree with that. My son is at 14U and most of the skills guys are barely hanging on. The talented kids are taking over. They are gaining skills to go with their talent.
Good thought doughnutman. I think that is another "group" within the whole scheme of things. ....
However, maybe the definition of talent and skill differs from person to person.
When I think young "talent" I think of the kid who picks up his first bat and is "rotational" right away
, every position comes with ease compared to others his age, and he runs circles around his teammates. The skilled kid, is the kid who "understood" why things are done a certain way and practiced it until his body starts to mature and others finally see him stand out as visibly "skilled".
When that "talented" kid also has that "skilled" mentality, mentality, work ethic, and passion, that's when you have something very special.
Maybe skilled is not only "hand-eye" but also a mental state a player has
This is really interesting stuff!
Son had a coach early on that defined players this way;
Players come in one of two ways, Stallions or Donkeys. Stallions can be taught to be better if they will work hard and allow themselves to be taught. They are however already a Stallion and impressive to begin with. Donkeys can be taught the same things you teach a Stallion making them a very good Donkey, but they will never be a Stallion.
I didn’t take his statement to mean anything negative about being a Donkey. Sure made my son work harder though, just in case you know…..
In my mind, I would much rather have a team comprised of a bunch of hard working Donkeys then one made up of erratic Stallions.
Son had a coach early on that defined players this way;
Players come in one of two ways, Stallions or Donkeys. Stallions can be taught to be better if they will work hard and allow themselves to be taught. They are however already a Stallion and impressive to begin with. Donkeys can be taught the same things you teach a Stallion making them a very good Donkey, but they will never be a Stallion.
I didn’t take his statement to mean anything negative about being a Donkey. Sure made my son work harder though, just in case you know…..
In my mind, I would much rather have a team comprised of a bunch of hard working Donkeys then one made up of erratic Stallions.
Baseball is a beautiful game. A big fat Donkey who runs a 8.5 60 , has a vertical of about 3 inches , can't chew gum and walk at the same time , can get up on that hill and shove it up a bunch of Stallions as*'s. And then when the game is over and the Donkey wins it really doesn't matter who was the Donkey and who was the stallion does it?
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
It could be, because of the better weather and being able to be outdoors 365 days a year, that players are more athletic.
That sounds like Southerners look at us chessebutts
. Trust when I say "athletic" is not always measured in a baseball sense. Contrary to the what many say our kids don't hibernate in the winter and outside activity is "everyday". Our weightrooms are full, you ski, you skate, you run, you shovel snow, you push cars out of ditches, and just walking in snow is a true aerobic workout. In the same regard I would say a Northerner spends more time outdoors in the dead of the summer than a Southerner because of your heat. I don't think it's fair to say their more athletic.
maybe a dumb question but................
do you have to compete in athletics to BE athletic?
do you have to compete in athletics to BE athletic?
Do math-aletes count? 
Stallions would have the body, the looks, and other physical attributes. They have a lot going for them, but it is entirely possible the Donkey has more talent/skill.
Here is the million dollar question…
Is Dustin Pedroia more talented or skillful?
Here is the million dollar question…
Is Dustin Pedroia more talented or skillful?
PG
I think with Pedroia the answer is simple---HE IS A WINNER----when I saw him in college at ASU you could see he was a winner---he has taken his skill and his talent to the MAX
I think with Pedroia the answer is simple---HE IS A WINNER----when I saw him in college at ASU you could see he was a winner---he has taken his skill and his talent to the MAX
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Is Dustin Pedroia more talented or skillful?
I think someone like that or for that matter any player who makes it to that level falls into the
When that "talented" kid also has that "skilled" players mentality, work ethic, and passion, that's when you have something very special.
There are kids that we would call raw in baseball skill that are very physically gifted. You see kids that are not as physically gifted but they are very skilled at the game. In the end it really doesnt matter. Can you hit? Can you throw? Can you field? Can you play the game? It will not matter how physically gifted you are if you can not actully put those gifts to use in a manner that makes you successful at actually playing the game. The kids that are physically gifted and have the tools needed to play the game at a high level are special talents. Then there are the guys that may not be physically gifted but they can just hit , throw and play the game. Either way they are still all very good players. So it really doesnt matter. You can either play or you can not.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
It could be, because of the better weather and being able to be outdoors 365 days a year, that players are more athletic.
I should have said, "could it be"..I was not referring that warm weather kids are more athletic, I am just trying to figure out why some always bring up the warmr weather kids get all the breaks 9FL, TX, CA). I'll go on my first assumption it's due to more exposure.
Wouldn't most MLB players be both talented and skilled? Some players like Pedroia, Rollins, and Jeter have speed and hitting talent. Howard, Dunn and others have power talent. And the truly lucky like ARod, Pujois, Griffey, Bonds, have talent in every aspect. I think 95+ mph pitchers are a special talent. These players are all also skilled because they worked at their talent year after year. The rest have varying degrees of talent at various tools.
As I read this maybe guys like Howard and Dunn have talent but not that much skill. I hate to say it but Howard is not much of a first baseman and Dunn struggles to hit .225. They might be examples of one dimensional talents that made it to the top. Not that their's anything wrong with that!
I think the five tools are talents. How a player sharpens one or all of those talents and develops it into a skilled talent determines how far he goes. If a player has a natural talent and never improves and develops it he still has the talent, it is just dormant. A pitcher who throws 90+ at 18 then stops throwing can, after building his arm back up, probably throw 90+ again at 23.
Also if you have one of the baseball 5 tools (talents) you don't have to be physically gifted overall. You can look like a donkey and throw, hit, or hit with power like a stallion.
The more I think about talent vs. skill the more intertwined they become. But I still think it starts with a talent that is developed into skilled talent. When you get to the higher levels it is probably different levels of skilled talent.
Now I have a headache!
As I read this maybe guys like Howard and Dunn have talent but not that much skill. I hate to say it but Howard is not much of a first baseman and Dunn struggles to hit .225. They might be examples of one dimensional talents that made it to the top. Not that their's anything wrong with that!
I think the five tools are talents. How a player sharpens one or all of those talents and develops it into a skilled talent determines how far he goes. If a player has a natural talent and never improves and develops it he still has the talent, it is just dormant. A pitcher who throws 90+ at 18 then stops throwing can, after building his arm back up, probably throw 90+ again at 23.
Also if you have one of the baseball 5 tools (talents) you don't have to be physically gifted overall. You can look like a donkey and throw, hit, or hit with power like a stallion.
The more I think about talent vs. skill the more intertwined they become. But I still think it starts with a talent that is developed into skilled talent. When you get to the higher levels it is probably different levels of skilled talent.
Now I have a headache!