Is it time to jump ship? Transfer that is.

I will be watching for responses...very interesting questions.

It is my experience that top programs have workout, throwing and flexibility programs targeted for their pitchers regardless of level. Rick at informed athlete will correct me if I am wrong, (provided he sees this) but he will have to do a 4-2-4 transfer via a JC if he does not want to sit out a year. If he goes D1-D1 he will require a sit out year or he could go D1>D2/D3 without sitting out. (in most cases) I am not sure about the release rules going D1-D3 or D1-D1, but he can go 4-2-4 via a JC without any permission from HC. Be aware their are class and credit requirements to meet if he goes to a JC. Good luck!  

Hi JPK3,

Others will chime in with definitive rules regarding transfer.  I believe, generally, he can transfer down without a sit year (D1 to D3, JC or NAIA for example) but other coaches usually still won't talk to him until release, particularly if he is a scholly player.  I will just address some of your other questions...

From the chair of a HS (and sometimes summer college) coach who makes it a point to follow his players playing past HS...

Most players I know are disappointed at the level of teaching/instructing as compared to expectations going into college, although not to the extreme you have described.  Most find themselves on their own to figure out a lot of stuff, on and off the field.  Most schools do provide workout programs and require all players to participate, including pitchers, although most P programs are modified.  That said, some programs are quite antiquated and the players are often surprised and disappointed at that.  So, is the grass greener from that standpoint?  Not necessarily.  I usually hear about the problem as slanted the other way, where players are required to continue heavy lifting during the season, including game days and day before.  An interesting dynamic that I didn't think of until recently - any increase in number of coaches and support personnel is offset by increase in roster size.

Is it possible coach won't release him?  Considering he is a heavy contributor, while unlikely, it is possible, particularly if he is likely to end up at a conference rival or local school that fishes in the same pond.  Hopefully, your son has maintained a decent relationship with him and things can be handled in a civil manner.  I haven't heard of too many situations where coach will not release.

I will say that the story you portray is one that sounds like it has the slant of a young player's perspective and there is likely another side to the story (I could be wrong).  It is almost college baseball tradition, it seems, for players to take a few of these coaching quirks and shortcomings and exaggerate them until they have painted this ridiculous picture with varying degrees of accuracy.  I know we can't step in and ask the coach and find out what the real deal is but to what extent do you feel your son has a true handle on these things?   Has he had the opportunity to sit down with HC and ask some questions?  Do you feel like you have a good handle on what explanations are given by the coaches?  That said, I know how hard it can be for the players to have that type of discussion with the coaches and it sounds like he is pretty much set on a new direction.  In that case, tact is a must and he needs to have a discussion real quick.  Has he been talking to other schools? 

Something to be keenly aware of is that transferring schools almost always results in some classes not transferring.  So, if he goes JC and then back to a four year, you can count on school taking a year, give or take, longer and you can add that expense into the equation.

One benefit from having gone through all of this is that he will know much more about what specific questions to ask with his next school.  

I'm curious... is the coach new or old?  program successful or losing?

Agree, Rick can assist with transfer questions. My advise based on what you've said would be to transfer to JC then back to DI or DII, DIII, NAIA. I would caution you on how you explain the reason why, take the high road. 

Sadly this is very common - recruiting stories not matching up with expectations. Sounds like a tough situation. I'll let the others talk about the NCAA rules since I'm not nearly the expert many are here. I'll just say I totally understand your son's position.

I it where my son I'd tell him to run not walk away.  No way would I want my kid to risk injury that could threaten his future life even outside of baseball.  My son transferred out of his 1st school during his RS year.  He could not be happier with the decision.

I have a friend that coaches at a very good JC in the area and they work out 6 days a week in the offseason, hit and pitch in the fall.  Their is a reason they are always in the playoffs.  

Sorry your son has to go thru this but IMO he needs to move on.

What summer league is your son playing? Are you asking the coach to prepare your son for pro baseball? How does your son coach himself?

Bob

I would think by now, he would have already signed his scholarship agreement for next year. This may complicate things even more. I wouldn't think it would be a problem, other than the academic things mentioned here, to go JUCO or NAIA, but the scholarship agreement may complicate NCAA transfers. 

I'll say this. No coach is going to be everything you want. Better be very careful about picking the next institution if he transfers. And no matter how careful you are, things will be different once you get there than how they were presented prior. It's not that coaches lie, it's just that reality is different than how one presents things and how the listener interprets them. 

jpk3 posted:

Hi All

Have always gotten good advice here.  Could use some more now.  JPK junior just finished up his first season of D1 ball.  Had a good season. Made the weekend starting rotation and put up some great results.

 Went to this D1 because of the opportunities to pitch and scholarship received.  Junior loved that part although he was over pitched.  

  Now we get to the rest of the story.  Junior wants out.  Here are some of the reasons.  I still cant believe this could go on at a D1 level.

1.  No workouts.   Pitchers are not allowed to lift at all during the season.  They get a 1 hour work out ONCE a week with bands only.  Thats it.  In the fall they got 2 days.  Junior and a couple of others would go workout at private gym.  Cant even use gym on campus. Coach checks login.  Get benched if you get caught working out. This just sounds crazy to me?

2.  No throwing program at all.  Coach even frowns on long toss.  Starters get one 25 pitch bullpen two days before they start.  Most relievers dont get bullpens. ( no wonder relievers cant throw strikes) You are allowed to play catch. 

3. No Coaching.  HC suppose to be pitching coach.  Does nothing for staff. No video, or instruction on drills or mechanics.  Pretty much on your own to figure things out if you get in a funk.  Pitchers pretty much run than shag during practice.  

4. No nutrition programs for anyone.  Once again, players are left to figure it out on their own.

This explains why there are so many injuries to the pitching staff and why there are opportunities every year for pitchers.  

Son wants out.  Wants to go somewhere where they will work with him to get him bigger, stronger and improve his game.  All things this Coach said he would do.  Is the grass greener at other schools? I cant imagine things being like this at other places.  What options does he have.  He's talking about transferring to a JUCO so he can continue to play.  Is that a common thing to do?  Sons biggest worry is that coach wont release him.  Is that possible?  Any info would be great.  Thanks.

 

Nolan Ryan talked about having to work out on his own (in his book Nolan Ryan Pitching Bible) because lifting weights and working out was frowned upon and discouraged while he was pitching in the 70's.  Unbelievable that this is going on at a D1 today.  

If your son does leave please share the college he left so someone on this forum doesn't make a mistake sending their son there. 

I always have issues with this sort of information.  

Let me ask one question, did you all not check out this information beforehand?   

I agree with Lionbaseball, please share the name of the school if you are able to do so.  We can all benefit from a little more information about schools and coaches.

Do not share the name of the program on a public message board.  

I have never heard of such a situation at a D1 program. There are requirements for student athletes.  The coach does not run the strength and training program.  

Once again, didnt you do your homework?  Did you not visit tje program, the facilities, talk to anyone?  And your son waited all year to mention any of this?

Thank you for all the responses.  I'll try to answer some of your questions.  

Cabbagedad:  I thought the same thing about being slanted.  I talked with most of the other pitchers parents and the echoed the same concerns.  Just so many hurt arms.  Does this happen at other schools too?  They started the season with 14 pitchers, only had 7 left at the end.  Starters where expected to go the distance because of no bullpen.  even when they had nothing left they got sent back out.  Winning is great but not at the expense of blowing out arms.  Son has approached the coach about working out more, as have others.  There is no discussing it.  

Daveccpa:  I like your suggestion of running not walking away.  Did you son go from D1 to juco? Glad it worked out for him. Where abouts are you located? What Juco does your friend coach at?  My son has been looking at some. Always nice to get good info. on a school and coach.

TPM;  We thought we did our homework on school and coach.  Info we got all seemed so positive. Even tour and talking to other players was great.  We even knew a few of the players on the team. Talked with their parents. All positive.  Looking back I think everyone was so positive towards us because they knew junior could really help the team.  Even now when  a top recruite visits, players are very careful how they answer questions and keep things positive.  Players want good players.

Is it to late for him to get into a good juco? What kind of time frame do jucos recruite? Do many jucos take D1 transfers since they will only have them for 1 year?  Never thought things would wind up like this.  

Maybe PM the people who have asked for the college name.  I am not sure why it can't be posted.  There are other threads on this site with reviews of colleges.  But if those are the rules...so be it.  If you go to "rate my coach" you will see all kinds of posts.  Readers have to weed through them...just because something is posted on the internet, does not mean it is true.  Everyone has a different experience for different reasons. Just my 2 cents...signing off....

Why not consider a D2 program?  Ask for a release, contact programs immediately, he might have to walk on.

RKBH posted:

Maybe PM the people who have asked for the college name.  I am not sure why it can't be posted.  There are other threads on this site with reviews of colleges.  But if those are the rules...so be it.  If you go to "rate my coach" you will see all kinds of posts.  Readers have to weed through them...just because something is posted on the internet, does not mean it is true.  Everyone has a different experience for different reasons. Just my 2 cents...signing off....

Everyone has different experiences.

Thats why you dont post. What may be a bad experience for one may not for another, plus  son is still on the roster.

Hello TPM   just saw your second message.  Not sure what requirements you are talking about for student athletes. Does NCAA require a certain amount of workouts for athelets? There is a strength and conditioning coach that works with all sports teams at school.  Nice facilities too.  You can NOT work out with strength coach on your own.  Pitchers can only go once a week for band work.  Son tried to work with strength coach and was told that HC coach has to OK it.  Which of course  never happened.  Son and few of others would go work out at a private gym off campus so they could get some work in.  Just crazy.  Son has been gripping all season. The more we found out the truth of things we could understand his gripping.  He is just so relieved that season is over.  He is not looking forward to going back and dealing with all those issues again.  I cant imagine that all schools and coaches are like this.  The grass has got to be greener somewhere else.

Yes there are requirements.  The coach does not dictate a syrength and conditioning program.  There is a trainer assigned to each team and programs vary for pitchers and hitters. Good teams have lifts together. At each school visited you should always check out each department, including academic. 

TPM posted:

RKBH posted:

Maybe PM the people who have asked for the college name.  I am not sure why it can't be posted.  There are other threads on this site with reviews of colleges.  But if those are the rules...so be it.  If you go to "rate my coach" you will see all kinds of posts.  Readers have to weed through them...just because something is posted on the internet, does not mean it is true.  Everyone has a different experience for different reasons. Just my 2 cents...signing off....

Everyone has different experiences.

Thats why you dont post. What may be a bad experience for one may not for another, plus  son is still on the roster.

 

I think the takeaway needs to be to do your homework - abd this site does a good job detailing out exactly what that "homework" consists of.  Throwing out a single name based on this player's particular experience takes away from its application towards just about any school under consideration.  If you are going high D1 (SEC, ACC, etc) that maybe you can assume a few facts, but otherwise it is good to do the research and ask questions.  If this situation scares you, then you should have 3-4 simple questions that you ask each and every program under consideration.  

I will admit that it sounds odd, so maybe if you are looking at a program that fits this description (D1, no pitching coach, etc) then maybe you ask via PM, but just because you get back a name that does not match doesn't mean that program is a good fit - you still need to ask questions.  Odds of any person on this board having a kid go to that program to pitch is very low, however the lesson learned applies to everyone.

When my 2016 was thinking about transferring last year, I called the NCAA Eligibility Office directly (you can find the tollfree number online).  I said I had questions on the process of transferring schools and I was connected to a man who talked to me for 20+ minutes.  He told me all the athlete's rights and responsibilities.  We talked through several hypothetical scenarios (transferring within the same conference or to a different conference, transferring to a D1 or a D3, timing, redshirting, requesting a hearing, requesting permission to contact another school, etc) and it was very informative.  The whole phone call was anonymous, he never asked my name or what specific schools I was referring to.  Altho 2016 did not wind up transferring, it was great to have all the information straight from the horse's mouth.  The NCAA guy was more than happy to educate me and stressed that athletes do have rights.  

Good luck!  

JPK3,

I know too many D1 players who went to JUCO's and never got back to a 4-year school and too many who dropped down to D2 and had trouble winning playing time to advise a D1 player to leave a school voluntarily unless he's absolutely sure he needs to be somewhere else and fully understands the risks.

Best wishes,

I agree with swampboy. Trying to transfer from a lower tier program is difficult, no matter how good the player is.

Remember getting a degree trumps everything else. Your son should be using his off season for conditioning, maybe lessons. He needs to take ownership.

Good luck

Regarding the disappointment in the teaching, training, skill-work, etc.  I think most parents are shocked to find that their son's travel and high schools coaches, in addition to a knowledgeable dad, are probably the one's who have helped shape the player's skill set the most!  This reality may not even set in until after Jr. has graduated from said University, and his playing days are over.

Many, if not most college programs do far less instruction than what high school parents believe.  College coaches don't recruit kids that they have to "instruct".  They recruit kids who they believe they can plug and play.

To this end...I think the OPs original questions are good one's, but he may be disappointed to find that it may or may not be much different at another program.  Now, the strength and conditioning aspect can be wildly different from one place to the next.  But the actual instruction...maybe not as much as one might think.

jpk3,

You said 4. No nutrition programs for anyone.  Once again, players are left to figure it out on their own. This explains why there are so many injuries to the pitching staff and why there are opportunities every year for pitchers.

Are you saying the reason pitchers are getting injured is because of no nutrition programs?

I don’t doubt your story, but have you checked to see how pitcher injuries at this school match up with pitching injuries at other DI schools?

At least at my son's school (D1), there has been significant instruction. They are very specific with players on strength and conditioning based off what their role is (such as position player, relief pitcher, starting pitcher). They are specific with each player as well as general education about nutrition. Pitching coach (as well as HC I would assume) are specific with my son's daily / weekly routine when he was healthy and thru trainers are specific while he is hurt. They have helped him improve his size, nutrition, velocity, depth of curveball and found a change up that works and he can throw effectively.

That being said, my son's college has been very very successful last few years since the current HC took over.

thanks all again.  Lots of good info and more to think about. 

TPM: About the strength coach issue.  Strength coach definitely under control of baseball HC.  Otherwise guys would be in there working out.  Unless HC clears it you are not working out with S. Coach. No one gets cleared.  Seems like coach is worried about players getting hurt lifting.  You are more likely to get hurt not lifiting.   You get your 1 session  a week thats it!  Thats the way it works here.  Strength coach does work with other sports teams.  Only 1 coach for all teams.  The softball team works out harder and more often than baseball does.  Again up to the coach. As far a son taking ownership. I believe he is by taken steps to see about transferring.  Its his decision.  Just trying to get as much info a possible so he can make a good decision.  

PeaceLove&baseball:  Thanks for the insight.  I have ready through the NCAA web site.  Call to get all answers sounds great.  Nice that they are so helpful.

Staying put is the safe thing to do, but is it the best???  I guess it come down to, is the risk of transferring worth the potential or non potential of the rewards.    Just dont want junior to go from bad to worse.  The goal would be to go from bad to great!

I get what goheels is saying about coaches just wanting players they can plug in. Still I think players need to be developed some.  Most freshman are not going to come in and be starters.  Alot have the skills but need time to adjust( develope) to the college game level.  

  Stats4gnats: point was that nutrition is another phase of the over program that is lacking.  I know of D2 schools that have nutrition plans for their players.  As you know nutrition makes a big difference in the athlete's performance and growth.

Hi Chefmike777:  You are very lucky!  That is the type of program junior would love to be in.  sounds like you got a great HC.  Are you down south?

Question: is Junior playing in a College League this summer? Preparing for his next step. At SSU [Dvision 2], very few Division 1 "drop downs" make a impact. However 50% of the roster is JC transfers. As a footnote. Santa Rosa JC is now ranked #3 in the Nation for baseball teams and #8 Academically.

Bob

I don't want to sound like a naysayer, but the story seems a little too negative to be entirely true.  As one poster stated earlier, is Jr. exaggerating a little bit?  I know my son can depending on what day it is.  For instance, I'll ask him about a teammate, a schoolmate, coach, professor, etc. and he'll tell me that he's a jerk, he doesn't like him, etc. Then, another day, he'll say that he loves them. In other words, kids can be emotional, and not always the best resource for basing your decisions on.  I would personally make darn sure everything he is saying is accurate, especially since he seems to be getting time on the mound.  I think there is more to this story...

jpk3 posted:

Hi Chefmike777:  You are very lucky!  That is the type of program junior would love to be in.  sounds like you got a great HC.  Are you down south?

nope. Dayton Ohio. No secret where my son goes. Just finished his sophomore year where he will be red shirted for an injury.

Wright State University. Made the NCAA last 2 years with 1st and 3rd most wins in schools history. Got to regional finals both times, winning 2 games in each regional which is first 4 NCAA wins in team history. Just had 5 players drafted, most in team history. On and on and on. Great place for my son and anyone else lucky enough to get the option to go there.

It is generally about 18K students but mostly commuter, roughly 3k live on or near campus. Academics are OK, Business and Nursing are their specialties of note. In state 20K to go there which includes everything, Very nice campus.

Ok, I am ending my Wright State commercial now

At what D1 college does the baseball Head Coach not have influence and control over the conditioning program?  

Certainly a difficult situation for all involved and ultimately your son's decision to play or not play baseball there.  If I was in your shoes, I'd want more information both from the son, his program and the transferring options with the NCAA.  In some cases transferring makes a lot of sense, but I also think some players transfer because they are running away from something.  I'd investigate this a lot more before son pulls the trigger on any significant changes.  

This is one of those situations that requires some parental involvement or detective work as the case may be.  At stake could be your son's physical health.  I find it very hard to believe all of this is going on.   If this is true, it is just incredible in this day and age.  JMO.

jpk3 posted:

…You are more likely to get hurt not lifiting. …

Do you have anything in the way of proof of that statement, or is that your belief?

Stats4gnats: point was that nutrition is another phase of the over program that is lacking.  I know of D2 schools that have nutrition plans for their players.  As you know nutrition makes a big difference in the athlete's performance and growth.

I do know that, but there are lots of schools that either don’t have nutrition programs or don’t have very sophisticated ones.

I’m pretty sure I understand where you’re coming from, but here’s something to keep in mind. Baseball programs at every level range from fantastic to very weak, but there aren’t a whole lot that meet the expectations of every player and parent associated with the program, or that don’t meet any expectation.

I hope you and your son find a way to work inside of whatever program he ends up in, because no matter how horrible it is, there will always be players ready to jump in and take his spot.

Good luck!

re: coach instruction.  Sometimes its up to the player to ask for help from the coach.

We have same experience with the unpitching coach. Long time ago we hosted a kid playing summer league. He was really good went on the play pro ball briefly. He said the worst coaching (pitching) you will ever get will be in college. I figured it was just the kid in him talking.  Nine years later and 2 D1 family members later - he could not have been more correct.  Sad  really

12pitches posted:

We have same experience with the unpitching coach. Long time ago we hosted a kid playing summer league. He was really good went on the play pro ball briefly. He said the worst coaching (pitching) you will ever get will be in college. I figured it was just the kid in him talking.  Nine years later and 2 D1 family members later - he could not have been more correct.  Sad  really

FWIW, son received better pitching instruction in college than in the minor leagues.

But a lot of it has to do with where and which program one attends.

I have a feeling that this particular example the players experience is at a lower tier D1, where you will find significant differences between those and the upper tier programs.

Think low A ball vs MLB. A very big difference.

However, I still have to question some of the players experiences. No matter what program one attends, the coach is paid to win games.

Jpk3

what summer league is your son playing?

bob

Ok not D1, But son received very good instruction from the pitching coach at his D3. Pitching coach had been head assistant coach at Duke. He had bee a pitching instructor for the Indians. He coaches at D3 because he loves the game and the kid. There are many D1's that would love to have him. But he is not trying to climb the coaching ladder. He does it because he loves the game and he likes working with D3 players in particular. 

I know other parents or kids in this program that may not have the same opinion. He does not have times for kids that wont listen or think they know better. So I have heard some parents say that he does not do enough to develop their kids. Believe me he would love to help, but life is too short, by the time they get to college they better have a passion already to get better. Love the game and do the work required. I know a pitcher in sons old conference. The kid always wanted the ball in the big game. But he never wanted to put in the work off the field. He wanted to show up on game day and get the ball. He is a very good pitcher. But he could be much better. He was assigned conditioning/lifting time with my son. Son said the pitcher was always done way before him but only did a third or half the reps. 

This pitcher has not improved at all over the last few years and missed some time this year. If you ask this kid about the pitching coach you may get a completely different answer than my son would give.

A good friend of mines son just graduated from OWU. His son had a very good career. Yet if parents of a prospective athlete would ask us about Baseball at OWU, they would probably get two very different answers.

I am with TPM, on sharing schools on a public forum. Each persons experience is different. And your experience may be different than mine. Me bad talking a school or warning young men away from a particular school may be removing a very good opportunity from that young man, just on my say so. 

I'm surprised some are questioning JPK3.  The level of "coaching" at college programs varies widely...wildly. 

Because of this type of craziness, we funded coaches to get coach training at a very well known, reputable "pitching academy".  Coaches went, but decided that they would not implement any of the training...they felt their way was better.  Their way sounds a lot like what JPK3 junior experienced.  

Never experienced meaningful coaching in Summer collegiate leagues either.  The daily grind of playing games means very little practice / instruction.