Is the strikeout just another out?

Really interesting article

Good stuff.

I've believed this for years.  While there is certainly a time for productive ABs and outs, a strike out is no different than a weak ground ball to the 2B.  I've always hated the teaching of choking up and "shortening" one's swing with 2 strikes.

Originally Posted by redbird5:

I've believed this for years.  While there is certainly a time for productive ABs and outs, a strike out is no different than a weak ground ball to the 2B.  I've always hated the teaching of choking up and "shortening" one's swing with 2 strikes.

 

Mebbe I missed something, but I took it that a K is very different than other outs.

IMO it is different. A K is a heck of a lot more demoralizing than weak grounder, granted they both count as an out. A backward K does even more to lessen the opposing teams will to fight.

IMHO. a strikeout produces nothing. Zero. Zilch. All that happens after a strikeout is a walk to the bench. No pressure on the defense to make even a routine play. How many managers have wished for just a ground ball to the second baseman and not got it? A strikeout is the emphatic statement that the pitcher has beaten you. Now, I will be the first to admit that when it comes to trading strike outs for home runs with a LEGITIMATE power hitter, I can live with that. As long as he isn't hitting 210 or 225.Dave Kingman anyone? Reggie and Mickey struck out a ton but were highly productive. In Mantles case he was a 300 hitter until the last few years dragged that lifetime avg. to 298. But for a player who is a gap hitter to be swinging from the heels all the time it doesn't make sense.

I wonder if Bill Buckner would have preferred a strike out to a weak ground ball?

Whoa!! You don't have to drag Bill into this.

K's increase pitch count.  Personally I like seeing ground outs. 

To paraphrase Tom Seaver: A pitcher's job is not to strike out batters; it's to get batters out, sometimes by striking them out.

 

Sandy Koufax: "I became a good pitcher when I stopped trying to make them miss the ball and started trying to make them hit it." (And that's coming from somebody who, in his last six years, averaged 286 Ks/year!)

That premise hasn't changed!

 

Interesting article. Thanks.

Just wondering: how many pitchers below the skill level of Koufax and Seaver have the luxury of choosing on a regular basis how they get batters out?

 

Seems like the difference between a pitch the batter can't hit and one he can't hit well is pretty fine.  Maybe around the margins there is some control, but is this really something pitchers can turn on and off?

 

As far as pitch counts go, 1) once you have two strikes on a batter, it doesn't take any more pitches to finish a K than to induce a 4-3, and 2) strikeouts can add to one's pitch count, but bloop hits and errors can add to pitch counts and run counts.

Originally Posted by Swampboy:

Just wondering: how many pitchers below the skill level of Koufax and Seaver have the luxury of choosing on a regular basis how they get batters out?

 

Seems like the difference between a pitch the batter can't hit and one he can't hit well is pretty fine.  Maybe around the margins there is some control, but is this really something pitchers can turn on and off?

 

As far as pitch counts go, 1) once you have two strikes on a batter, it doesn't take any more pitches to finish a K than to induce a 4-3, and 2) strikeouts can add to one's pitch count, but bloop hits and errors can add to pitch counts and run counts.

 

Koufax didn’t CHOOSE how he got batters out. What he CHOSE to do was not go 100% on each and every pitch, considering it a failure if a hitter put the ball in play.

 

1) You’re correct. Once you get to 2 strikes there isn’t much difference. But if they’re gone before there are 2 strikes there’s a heck of a difference.

 

2) Correct again, but how many bloop hits and errors are there in a ML game?

 

This is another one of those things that is very different in the ML as opposed to amateur baseball because the percentage of amateur pitchers who have the kind of stuff it takes to strike out a lot of hitters is much smaller than in the ML.

 

Ever wonder why a manager will take out a pitcher with two men on, one out and needing a DP?

I guess that is why they keep stats on this stuff, chances are the guy who specializes in DP will get the job done while the pitcher who may be better with the SO is most likely why he is done for the day.

I don't understand the point, there are some guys who are better at K and some who are better at inducing the bloopers. Not everyone is the same. Not everyone has the same stuff. That's why there are 8 guys behind you to field the ball.

 

Stats,

There is no failure if a pitcher puts a ball in play? You even said yourself that the pitcher should pitch to contact..remember that discussion?

And way more BIP are turned into outs at the ML level than at the HS level. And way more HS/amateur hitters are prone to taking strikes and/or swinging at balls that will lead to more strikeouts.

 

Pitchers do not (read, should not) want batters to put the ball in play at any level. They want to make the best pitch they can that will get a strike (called or swinging) and have to accept that sometimes those balls will be in put in play.

Sorry there are times the ball has to be put in play for DP.
But the goal 99 % of the time is for the ball not to make contact.

There are times when it would be preferable that if the ball were put in play, it would be preferable to have a ground ball. It might even be the case that if you had to choose between two pitchers you'd prefer the one who struck out fewer guys because he induces more ground balls (given the extent to which pitchers influence the rate of ground balls vs the rate of Ks this is probably rare, though).

 

But, either way, the pitcher should still be attempting to throw the best pitch he can with the aim of not inducing contact. Even Derek Lowe gave up a hit in DP situations more than twice as often as he got a GIDP.

Most of the very best pitchers at any level, strike out a lot of hitters. Most, not all, would be labeled strike out pitchers. It has been that way forever and I don't think it will ever change. I know there are examples of the opposite, but most dominant pitchers Compile a lot of strike outs.

 

The biggest problem involves pitch counts.  When those Ks happen in 4 pitches it keeps the pitch count down.  When lots of those Ks are coming on full counts or more pitches it adds up fast.

 

That old saying about the best pitch in baseball.... Strike One!  Is true in my opinion.  I actually consider that pitching to contact.  Those one or two pitch outs are simply more valuable over time than full count strike outs. But once there are two strikes on a hitter, the goal should be strike three.

 

Then there are certain situations, we all know what they are, that pitchers capable of getting a strikeout should be going for it from the very first pitch.  

 

DPs are a pitchers best friend, another old saying that is true.  They limit pitch counts. That is why the sinker ball pitchers are in demand.  Sometimes the situation calls for that  ground ball pitcher.

 

To me pitching to contact simply means the pitcher isn't afraid to throw his pitches in the strike zone.  If they hit it, they hit it... If they miss it, they miss it. So I actually believe pitching to contact is more a mental than physical thing.  And in that regard, it is a good thing!  But from a domination stand point it is hard to beat swing and miss or freezing the hitter on a called strike!