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Man on second.  Single up the middle.  Centerfielder charges the ball with the intent of making a throw for a play at the plate. Kicks the ball away for an error.  Runner from second scores without a throw being made.  If ball had been fielded cleanly there would have been ample time for a play at the plate.  No guarantee that he would have been out, but at least there would've been a play.

Is that an error?

"Don't be mean now because remember: Wherever you go, there you are..." Buckaroo Banzai

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Thanks, everyone.  To be honest, I was paying more attention to the outfielder than to where the runner was.  The kid has a good arm, he was charging in, and when he booted it I followed the ball instead of looking to the runner.  By the time I did see the runner he was past third base.  I think if fielded cleanly he would have had a good shot at the guy at home, but the whole play happened very quickly.  I did not give an error, but I think it was a play that could have been made.  Appreciate everyone's insights!

It’s interesting how there are so many good answers, but there are a couple worth additional mention.

 

smokeminside posted: To be honest, I was paying more attention to the outfielder than to where the runner was. 

 

The same thing happens to everyone. A big difference between an adequate SK and a good one, is the good one will figger out how to watch the runners a lot more than the adequate ones. In general, most people are watching the ball because that’s what determines the action.

 

In a case like this one, a play between 2nd and home, a lot depends on where the SK is sitting. If s/he’s on the 3rd base side by the dugout, s/he can see the runner and fielder at the same time. If s/he’s on the 1st base side by the dugout, it’s more difficult to see the runner and fielder at the same time. Of course the opposite is true on plays between home and 2nd.

 

SanDiegoRealist posted: I would also look at what the coach was telling the runner to do.

 

It’s very difficult for SKs to watch the play, i.e. the fielders and runners, and have the presence of mind to look at the base coach to see what he’s doing. To be honest, it’s very seldom I notice a coach’s actions. In this case, without paying some attention to the batter/runner, it would be difficult to say why he went to 2nd, if he did.

 

Good question.

SanDiegoRealist posted: I would also look at what the coach was telling the runner to do.

 

It’s very difficult for SKs to watch the play, i.e. the fielders and runners, and have the presence of mind to look at the base coach to see what he’s doing. To be honest, it’s very seldom I notice a coach’s actions. In this case, without paying some attention to the batter/runner, it would be difficult to say why he went to 2nd, if he did.

 

Good question.

Everyone has instant replay, right? I threw that out there as a possible aspect to help score. I agree, our eyes aren't everywhere, but as soon as a ball is booted and there is a runner in motion I would tend to look in that direction. I also know it's pretty easy to pick out a 3B coach waving his arms frantically to send a runner home. That is why when we score games from our scoring booth we typically talk about what happened between 2-3 people to be able to score a difficult play as accurately as possible. One set of eyes is often not adequate.

smokeminside posted:

Another edition: runner on third, fly ball to right, one hop throw to home, ball bounces into, then out of catcher's glove.  Runner is safe at home.  If caught cleanly, catcher would have had time for a tag attempt. Do I score that an error on the catcher?

Not an ump but from my own common sense thinking (which sometimes gets me in trouble when it comes to baseball rules) ...

If it is a clean one-hop that comes up early for an easy catch and clearly beats the runner, I would give an E.  Any short hop or bang bang, no E.  Almost always no E on this play.

Last edited by cabbagedad

The pesky "Ordinary Effort" comes in here.  Rule 10.13 ....An error will be charged for each misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw) that prolongs the time at bat of a batter, that prolongs the life of a runner......Add to that from comment 2 of the rule: ....in the scorer's judgement the fielder could have handled the ball with ordinary effort..... 

For practical purposes I agree with CabbageDad's approach to these plays.   If it is a clean one hopper in the knee to chest area then there can be an E.  It would be unusual to charge the error on these plays though.  It would have to be a real good throw and a really clear play that the catcher basically butchered.  IMO if the runner is 15 feet+/- from the plate or closer (or about 2 strides) when the ball reaches the catcher - no error.  If he kicks a good throw with a runner 30 feet up the line...then I can see hanging an E on him. 

Another angle on this play is the failure to stop the throw where a stopped runner then scores.  Now you have to give an error to someone.  It then becomes the judgement of the scorer if the throw was wild or if the catcher should have stopped it.  For any throw that bounces, that error is going to the guy who threw the ball with the exception being if the base was left uncovered by a defender that should have been there.  For example a throw that goes into CF on a SB when neither 2B or SS cover the bag.

 

luv baseball posted:

The pesky "Ordinary Effort" comes in here.  Rule 10.13 ....An error will be charged for each misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw) that prolongs the time at bat of a batter, that prolongs the life of a runner......Add to that from comment 2 of the rule: ....in the scorer's judgement the fielder could have handled the ball with ordinary effort..... 

 

For practical purposes I agree with CabbageDad's approach to these plays.   If it is a clean one hopper in the knee to chest area then there can be an E.  It would be unusual to charge the error on these plays though.  It would have to be a real good throw and a really clear play that the catcher basically butchered.  IMO if the runner is 15 feet+/- from the plate or closer (or about 2 strides) when the ball reaches the catcher - no error.  If he kicks a good throw with a runner 30 feet up the line...then I can see hanging an E on him. 

 

Another angle on this play is the failure to stop the throw where a stopped runner then scores.  Now you have to give an error to someone.  It then becomes the judgement of the scorer if the throw was wild or if the catcher should have stopped it.  For any throw that bounces, that error is going to the guy who threw the ball with the exception being if the base was left uncovered by a defender that should have been there.  For example a throw that goes into CF on a SB when neither 2B or SS cover the bag.

 

Please allow me to get something straight before moving on. In 2016 OBR change the numbering system in the rulebook and did away with rule 10, so there is no more rule 10.13. That being said, the new number for 10.13 is 9.13.

 

The definition for Ordinary Effort is now in the “Definition of Terms” section. Unfortunately, in the current edition of OBR which is the 2016 edition, in that comment, the references didn’t get updated. I suggest that anyone who really is interested in the rules download the current version. The 2017 edition should be out soon.

 

This discussion is a recurring one because it shows the difference between what makes sense to someone who knows the game and what the rulebook requires. The quotes are accurate, but unfortunately there’s another rule that comes into play further down in that comment. See below.

 

OBR Rule 9.12(a )(1) Comment: Slow handling of the ball that does not involve mechanical misplay shall not be construed as an error. For example, the official scorer shall not charge a fielder with an error if such fielder fields a ground ball cleanly but does not throw to first base in time to retire the batter. It is not necessary that the fielder touch the ball to be charged with an error. If a ground ball goes through a fielder’s legs or a fly ball falls untouched and, in the scorer’s judgment, the fielder could have handled the ball with ordinary effort, the official scorer shall charge such fielder with an error. For example, the official scorer shall charge an infielder with an error when a ground ball passes to either side of such infielder if, in the official scorer’s judgment, a fielder at that position making ordinary effort would have fielded such ground ball and retired a runner. The official scorer shall charge an outfielder with an error if such outfielder allows a fly ball to drop to the ground if, in the official scorer’s judgment, an outfielder at that position making ordinary effort would have caught such fly ball. If a throw is low, wide or high, or strikes the ground, and a runner reaches base who otherwise would have been put out by such throw, the official scorer shall charge the player making the throw with an error.

 

This is exactly the same thing as what happens on a wild pitch:

 

OBR 9.13(a) The official scorer shall charge a pitcher with a wild pitch when a legally delivered ball is so high, so wide or so low that the catcher does not stop and control the ball by ordinary effort, thereby permitting a runner or runners to advance. The official scorer shall charge a pitcher with a wild pitch when a legally delivered ball touches the ground or home plate before reaching the catcher and is not handled by the catcher, thereby permitting a runner or runners to advance.

 

The ball touching the ground in these circumstances relieves the receiving fielder of any responsibility for catching the ball UNDER THE RULES which is not the same thing as what he and/or others may believe.

 

So, “If it is a clean one-hop that comes up early for an easy catch and clearly beats the runner”, as someone who has played the game and watched it for many decades, I’m mad at the receiving fielder. But as a scorer who takes pride in trying to abide by the rules of the game, the receiving fielder is never gonna get popped with an E on that play for not catching the ball.

 

I try to keep this in mind: OBR Rule 9.12(a)(7) Comment: The official scorer shall apply this

rule even when it appears to be an injustice to a fielder whose throw was accurate. For example, the official scorer shall charge an error to an outfielder whose accurate throw to second base hits the base and caroms back into the outfield, thereby permitting a runner or runners to advance, because every base advanced by a runner must be accounted for.

Last edited by Stats4Gnats

As a former catcher and a father of a current catcher.....  What makes a person qualified to determine what "ordinary effort" is?  Just because a parent has watched his kid play ball doesn't make him an official scorer!   On a throw coming in to the catcher with a runner bearing down on him those throws are not the easiest to handle.  Often they move at the bounce giving very little reaction time to a catcher.  The hit dirt/grass edges and bounch, etc.  Plus a catcher may rush the catch/tag knowing the runner  has the jump.  Errors on catchers are typically throw away plays, fastball is dropped or clips the glove or catcher tries to pick the ball instead of blocking allowing runners to advance.  To hang an E on a catcher due to what YOU believe is an easy routine bounce isn't very objective.  What if a single is hit to the outfield with a guy on third.  Play at home runner rounds first.  Catcher instead of trying to pick said bounced throw blocks the throw  like a pitch to stop ball and throw out said runner going to second.  In your mind you felt the catcher had a play at the runner coming home.  Do you mark him as an error??

 

That is why I don't worry about score books kept by parents.  Very few of them are familiar with the rules and, understandably, driven by emotions.  May be hesitant to not give their child an E or a friend's child.  I don't worry about any one else's kids errors but my own.  I know what errors he may have made and will address with him at the proper time.  He can pick behind the plate with the best of them.  Some coaches yell "great pick".  I yell...."Your not playing first base.  BLOCK".

I am expect more from him and what may not be an error doesn't mean it is correct.

This has been a great, illuminating discussion.   Obviously, I'm not an official scorer, but I think baseball scoring is fascinating when ordinary effort has to be determined.  And, in this case, my son's best friend was the catcher, and we are close with his parents.  His other best friend is the RF who made what I thought was a perfect throw, and we are also close with his parents.  I keep the GameChanger for the team and what I score becomes the official book for the team stats. Pressure to be accurate abounds as it should, regardless of the relationships, but those relationships can complicate objectivity.  Especially when the run scored was the winning run in an intense game where the results determined each team's playoff future.

I gave no error on the play. It was not a bang/bang play but it wasn't a gimmee, either.  The ball skipped off the grass a bit, complicating things.  As far as ordinary effort is concerned, the catcher had made the same play successfully a couple of innings earlier.  If the ball hadn't gone directly into his mitt off the bounce, I wouldn't have had a question about the play.

Finally, I remember a lot of hubbub a few years ago when an MLB hitter got all over a scorekeeper for giving an error to one of three fielders who let a popfly drop between them.  My memory is that he actually got the scorekeeper to change the play to a hit. Pretty sure there was a discussion here about it. If a professional scorekeeper in an MLB game is not going to give an error on a play like that, then I'm never going to give one either.  Seems dumb not to give the error, even with the rule book in front me.

Thanks everyone, again.  Always learn a lot about scoring here.  Certainly not a science.

Last edited by smokeminside

Perfect timing for my question - assume a pop up to the right of, and behind, the mound several feet short of the grass.  Pitcher starts to head that direction while the 2B moves in, all the time the SS is moving in.  Lots of calling, but in the end they all chicken out and the ball simply drops to the ground with none of the three ever touching it.  Is this an error, and if so how do you assign?

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