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Is this happening everywhere?

K KCBaseball100+ posts
Recently the birthday cutoff changed in youth baseball. The old rule of August 1, was changed to May 1. Many boys with summer birthdays who started school a year later way back in Kdg. have benefited from this change and can now play with their friends in school.

I get this, but what I am shocked about is the number of teams that are actively recruiting and adding older players to their roster for tournaments.
Is this happening in other places? This past weekend my 14-year-old Freshman was very impressed by the size of the opposing team's pitcher. He found out that their roster had 9 Sophmore's on the team! All are benefitting taking adavantage of the changed cut-off date to stack their teams with older players. How do these coaches find all these older players? Are they hanging out at HS fields asking kids to "play down" a grade if they have summer birthdays?

I'm not talking about lesser players or smaller kids. The teams that seem to be doing this are the most competetive in our area. I guess they've found a new way to get an advantage, and it really is all about winning, right? What fun is it to play down a level against kids a grade younger and win? I will say that we're seeing some really strong competition and our boys will be ready for HS tryouts! They're already facing HS players!
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rz1rz15,000+ posts
Some coaches think that the number of wins brings validity to their program. As a parent, ex-coach, and fan of the game, I feel for players that play for a coach of that type. Those coaches are playing to an audience of 1 and as time goes on it will bite their program. As a coach I always found more satisfying to develop a "team" from the "get-go" and watching that growth. I think the kids actually enjoyed that more than pf we were stacking wins with ringers.
Last edited by rz1
2Bmom2Bmom1,000+ posts
Yes - it happened here a couple of years ago. My son has a summer birthday, but also started school early, so he is young for his grade and young for his team. When they changed the cutoff to May 1, we got phone calls from 3 different teams. We could have gone to Cooperstown twice! It was tempting! But we decided to stay with the kids in his grade and move on up to the big field. It's always better to play up! And it definitely made a difference at HS tryouts. Your boys will have an advantage having played against stronger competition - they should do great. Good luck!
T TG500+ posts
When the date changed our LL begged me to have my son play another year of LL. My son didn't see it as his age group and friends. He had no interest. He couldn't wait to play 13U travel on the big field.

Afterwards there were snide comments they would have won states (they made it) had he not been so selfish. While I would have let him do what he wanted, I didn't see the value of a seventh grader, two years removed from high school playing LL. We don't even look at him playing up. He's in the age group he started with.

Now that he's entering high school age groups become irrelevant. It's "can you play or not" now. Our 15U fall ball team is playing up one and two years to challenge the kids leading into high school ball. The challenge is more important than trophy hunting.

I believe the kids playing down to the new age group instead of challenging themselves and preparing for high school/Legion ball are hurting themselves.
rz1rz15,000+ posts
quote:
I believe the kids playing down to the new age group instead of challenging themselves and preparing for high school/Legion ball are hurting themselves.

TG,
I agree, but don't blame the kids who just want to be out there playing. Blame the system for allowing it. If I was a kid and given the option, it would be tough to turn down.
2Bmom2Bmom1,000+ posts
It was tempting for us because, with a July 23 birthday, my son had always been the youngest, smallest player on his team. He was 6 on his first 7/8 kid pitch team, 10 on the 11/12 all-star team, 11 in Cooperstown, you get it. It was tempting to see what he could do with kids closer to his size and age. But we stayed with our team, and it was definitely the right choice.
T TG500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by rz1:
quote:
I believe the kids playing down to the new age group instead of challenging themselves and preparing for high school/Legion ball are hurting themselves.

TG,
I agree, but don't blame the kids who just want to be out there playing. Blame the system for allowing it. If I was a kid and given the option, it would be tough to turn down.
My understanding the age change was step one to get to the international date of Jan 1 for amateur sports. It's USA Baseball driving the age change. Every individual organization, LL, USSSA, etc. had the option to decline to change.

I don't blame the kids. I blame coaches and parents who consider trophy hunting more important than development once the kids hit thirteen.
T TG500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by 2Bmom:
It was tempting for us because, with a July 23 birthday, my son had always been the youngest, smallest player on his team. He was 6 on his first 7/8 kid pitch team, 10 on the 11/12 all-star team, 11 in Cooperstown, you get it. It was tempting to see what he could do with kids closer to his size and age. But we stayed with our team, and it was definitely the right choice.
My son would get frustrated players and parents would talk about the monster shot homers in LL and 12U. He was 5 feet when he was twelve. I told him his fence scraping homers would be nice line drive hits when he got on the big field while monster shots become flyouts. He was always better and more fundamentally sound. Even in 13U he was only 5'2". Now that he's finally growing (seven inches this year to 5'9" at 14 years, 4 months) he's the noticeable player. I believe it's been a benefit he's been younger and a physical late bloomer. He's had to work hard to excel. Now that he's growing the game is getting easy. Besides, how many high school kids do you hear talking about pre high school ball?
Last edited by TG
rz1rz15,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TG:
I don't blame the kids.


Didn't think you did, I was directing to more at John Q Public who at times is looking for the "bad guy" and many times the kids are the targets.

If we try to make this negative a positive, those who play within their own age group are "playing up" when they face these teams who stack. Bring on those older kids, they will be the ones who will be looking in their rear view mirrors.
E emeraldvlly100+ posts
In our league, very few of the boys were affected by the change. They all just continued playing with the group of kids they'd always played with, and that usually corresponded to the same grade. I believe that by the time a kid hits middle school he should be playing by grade.

My son is young (13- 1 month til 14) for a high school freshman, but benefited a ton playing on the j.v. summer team this year. he also played on a travel team made up of the boys he'd played with for the past 5 years. All a grade younger. You know which team he liked more? Which team felt like he was really competing on? The older, correct grade, one. He should have been with his grade all along, but the local rules would't let him "play up". He missed a year on the 60/90 before hs because of that. Now he is playing on a fall team that's made up of all older kids. He loves it. It's better baseball, and he does just fine.
J JimSmith#1510+ posts
yes we played 15 u ball this yr with our TEAM ages 14 to 15.We saw alot of BIG TEAMS THAT WERE ALL 16 YRS OLD AND DRIVING . it was sad loosing to a cruddy hit ball by a 6-2 man child with a aluminum bat go 320' for a home run . we found the equalizer !!!
WOOD BAT TOURNAMENTS !!!!! GOOD pitchers PLAYERS AND HITTER WILL NOT GET BEAT BY BAD teams of BIG KIDS AND HOT BATS!!!
we took the boys to a 16u tourny and played against jr.s with our freshman and sophmores and kicked there tails !!!!! I THINK THAT THEY SHOULD PLAY THEIR GRADE NOT THERE AGE . IF ONE OR TWO GOOD PLAYERS GET LEFT BACK AND "FOUND "SO WHAT
T TG500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by JimSmith#15:
yes we played 15 u ball this yr with our TEAM ages 14 to 15.We saw alot of BIG TEAMS THAT WERE ALL 16 YRS OLD AND DRIVING . it was sad loosing to a cruddy hit ball by a 6-2 man child with a aluminum bat go 320' for a home run . we found the equalizer !!!
WOOD BAT TOURNAMENTS !!!!! GOOD pitchers PLAYERS AND HITTER WILL NOT GET BEAT BY BAD teams of BIG KIDS AND HOT BATS!!!
we took the boys to a 16u tourny and played against jr.s with our freshman and sophmores and kicked there tails !!!!! I THINK THAT THEY SHOULD PLAY THEIR GRADE NOT THERE AGE . IF ONE OR TWO GOOD PLAYERS GET LEFT BACK AND "FOUND "SO WHAT

If you play Connie Mack with 14's and 15's please don't complain some of the kids are big 16yo's. Connie Mack is 13-16. By sixteen a lot of boys are quite physically mature. Those big kids will still crush the ball with wood bats.

Which tournament? ECTB or Berkshire? Who were the other teams? Talent matters more than age. Our 14U travel team regulary beat Connie Mack teams with 16yo's. We would play doubleheaders against them on weekends we didn't have tournaments.
Last edited by TG
M Michael'sDad100+ posts
This is happening in our area to a degree also. But I personally feel the boys that have the ability to do so and are not "playing up" with their grade may win a few extra games now and make mom and dad proud but in the long run they are short changing themselves. They need to play against the best competition that they can handle to push and challenge themselves. This usually means playing against and with the older boys. Colleges and pros aren't going to compare boys to kids in a lower grade just becasue of their birthday, they're going to compare them against the boys in their grade. Also, doing this during the school year isn't enough as many high school teams aren't that strong so a quality player will not be pushed for a good portion of the 25 or so games they play. That leaves summer and fall where, at least for my son, we played many more games and against better competition (from top to bottom of the lineup). I've seen several athletic boys that played "down" never reach what I thought was their true potential because they were always one of the best (on their team and tournament) because they never played against the best in their grade and saw how they really stacked up.
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
Yes, it is bound to happen everywhere, because throughout travel baseball you will always have coaches who think their job is to win above all else, when in fact their job is to develop players. And it is very sad.

Don't worry about losing to teams like these. In the long run you're better off where you are. And it surely doesn't help those in higher grades to "play down".

I have never understood the motivation for the age date change (which took effect in 2006), but it sure has made a mockery of Little League baseball. Though Little League has been trending towards mockery for years now anyway, so I don't know why I should be surprised.
jerseydadjerseydad1,000+ posts
While very few players will move on to the next level (college/pro), the one thing I would tell players and parents is to make sure your are playing with your graduating class during the summer of your rising senior year. It may be fun winning a bunch of games as 8th graders playing down against 7th graders however when it gets time for high school ball I think you will be best served by playing against your class, not your age.

I have seen some really good ball players get hardly any looks from schools because they were still playing down in 16U events during their rising senior summer. Meanwhile the rest of their class was playing in 17U events that were attended by the colleges/pro scouts. Truth is you will find very few colleges at the 16U events. (My son played in the AAU Jr Olympics National Championship game as a 16YO and I don’t think we saw one school watching during the whole week).

Thankfully most of the boys made out okay but it took them a lot longer to get noticed and found themselves scrambling around at fall events trying to be seen, I wonder what they could have done if they had been part of the "showcase age" teams.
Last edited by jerseydad
B Bee>1,000+ posts
a few thoughts per the original post


1) the bubble players could only have gained 90 days, it that significant?

2) by middle school it would be wiser to play with the best players you can hang with giving no consideration to age ... playing with a community team of your own age group is a red flag

jmo
Last edited by Bee>
T TG500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
I have never understood the motivation for the age date change (which took effect in 2006), but it sure has made a mockery of Little League baseball.
The decision to move the date was made by USA Baseball. It's step one to ultimately get to the international date of January 1. Every organization under the USA Baseball umbrella had the option not to change. They all changed.
Last edited by TG
K KCBaseball100+ posts
per Bee>
quote:
a few thoughts per the original post

1) the bubble players could only have gained 90 days, it that significant?


Its not the 90 days thats bothering me. Its the teams actively recruiting players from a grade older to pad their rosters.

I agree with the above statements regarding helping yourself by playing against the best competition, thus playing in the older group.

What I don't agree with is the coach who enters a 15U tournament (9th grade teams) with a roster thats mostly sophomores in high school. They are abusing the new birthday rule. The team we faced over the weekend had 9 sophomores on the same roster, playing 15U. How do they find each other?

We'll gladly play them. They won the tournament, but we actually split with them since we met in pool play and in the semis (12-5 win for us, 6-3 win for them)! But I can tell you that it got pretty ugly from the older players, coaches and opposing parents when they started losing to a group of younger kids. That wasn't what they had in mind at all! And it really isn't doing their kids any good.
B Bee>1,000+ posts
quote:
by KCbb: What I don't agree with is the coach who enters a 15U tournament (9th grade teams) with a roster thats mostly sophomores in high school. They are abusing the new birthday rule
how can a birthday cutoff be abused?? everyone has the exact same date ...

ya really oughta send that coach a thank you card as for playing sophmores. even though they are 15 yr old, THEY are playing down & it's benefiting your guys ... unless YOU are playing for the trophy


this is the likely progression of your freshman team's roster of 15 players

soph yr - 4 players quit baseball, 11 remain

jr yr - 2 more players quit, 9 remain

sr yr - 2 more players quit, 7 remain .. 3 or 4 are starters and/or play alot, the remainder are role players or keep score



that pyramid comes to an even sharper point for sophmore teams competing against freshmen
Last edited by Bee>
B bb1100+ posts
My sons team had 5 players that were affected by the rule change. Everyone chose to stay with his grade and not play at the same level again. It did benefit a few kids I know that were playing a grade above because of July birthdays. Now,they get to play with their friends.
Some of these kids on occassion when a team was short players did play in a tournament early in the season before their high school teams started. I don't think the coach was trying to stack his team at all and the kids just wanted to play ball and there was no one else sitting because these kids were there. I'm not surprised though that some coaches would seek out these kids to try an win. What a shame.
Last edited by bb1
N noerrorsMember
I hate the new age cut off, but it is partly just bad luck for us. My son is already small for his age and with a late April birthday he is always the youngest in his league, much less on his team. But the really hard part is that he is a grade behind all the boys he has grown up with playing ball. While they are off this year playing HS freshman ball he is stuck behind. Too old to play with the eighth graders that are in his class and not in HS yet so he can't play with his age group. Hopefully it will pay off next year when he get in HS.
T TG500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by bb1:
I'm not surprised though that some coaches would seek out these kids to try an win. What a shame.
There are two ways to win in travel ball; 1) develop talent, 2) recruit early physical blooming talent. The programs who recruit physical talent tend to disappear after 15U. By 16U most kids have physically developed to the point where there aren't physical early bloomers to recruit and winning becomes about teaching and development rather than brute strength.
Last edited by TG
T TG500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by noerrors:
I hate the new age cut off, but it is partly just bad luck for us. My son is already small for his age and with a late April birthday he is always the youngest in his league, much less on his team. But the really hard part is that he is a grade behind all the boys he has grown up with playing ball. While they are off this year playing HS freshman ball he is stuck behind. Too old to play with the eighth graders that are in his class and not in HS yet so he can't play with his age group. Hopefully it will pay off next year when he get in HS.
It sounds like he's young for his age group but old for his grade. This will be a benefit in high school. My son is young for his age group and young for his grade. His birthday is in May. He stayed in his original age group. His sister was even younger for her grade but the ASA date is Jan 1. Once a kid is in high school either he/she can play or not. Age doesn't matter anymore.

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