It is Past Time to Face Reality

Chico Escuela posted:

Your post above doesn't show that CDC data demonstrate pneumonia deaths exceed covid-19 deaths.  That point may be made somewhere else in what you posted previously, but the quotation in your post immediately above says nothing of the sort.  

Let's assume the Post article's chart only reflects the hard-hit areas in the second graph.  (I honestly don't know the answer to that.)  Wouldn't that still show that in areas where covid-19 rates are highest, it is a very significant cause of death?  Seems like something I would want to know if I were considering whether to continue measures to reduce the spread of the disease.  

The CDC report (from the CDC's FLUVIEW weekly report) lists those percentages as % of deaths in the U.S.. So yes, it does mean that non-flu and non-COVID-19 pneumonia deaths are a higher % of U.S. deaths than are COVID-19 deaths or flu-deaths. Note that the week 14 report is the last one of the season due to the prevalence of COVID-19 deaths. All COVID-19 deaths now just list overall P&I death % in the U.S.. That now includes flu, COVID-19, and and the rest of pneumonia deaths. Because they now know it doesn't really matter and all the P&I data will be skewed. If a patient exhibits COVID-19 symptoms they will likely test for COVID-19, not flu. They may test negative for COVID-19 but if they die they will now be listed as probable COVID-19 which is why numbers shot up significantly in the last few days. Also because these recent numbers added were "probable" deaths over the entire COVID-19 period,  not just one week.

Yes, I had to assume the bar charts are the only data used in their article as that is what the graphic represents. I didn't read the article though (to be honest) as I don't pay for a subscription from the Post. I'm tempted, however, as I live in the DC area. So I made an educated guess and if you look at the totals will will see the charts match so it is a very limited data set. And sure, it is only in hotspot areas, if you consider DC and CA hotspots. Not sure I do... But I would say not too many people in NYC own cars. Plus not as many people on the roads now. I do hear the same traffic reports of accidents on the radio though!!!  Go figure!!!

Most Wapo and NYTimes pandemic-related content is free to non-subscribers.

ABSORBER posted:

Chico Escuela posted:

Your post above doesn't show that CDC data demonstrate pneumonia deaths exceed covid-19 deaths.  That point may be made somewhere else in what you posted previously, but the quotation in your post immediately above says nothing of the sort.  

Let's assume the Post article's chart only reflects the hard-hit areas in the second graph.  (I honestly don't know the answer to that.)  Wouldn't that still show that in areas where covid-19 rates are highest, it is a very significant cause of death?  Seems like something I would want to know if I were considering whether to continue measures to reduce the spread of the disease.  

The CDC report (from the CDC's FLUVIEW weekly report) lists those percentages as % of deaths in the U.S.. So yes, it does mean that non-flu and non-COVID-19 pneumonia deaths are a higher % of U.S. deaths than are COVID-19 deaths or flu-deaths. Note that the week 14 report is the last one of the season due to the prevalence of COVID-19 deaths. All COVID-19 deaths now just list overall P&I death % in the U.S.. That now includes flu, COVID-19, and and the rest of pneumonia deaths. Because they now know it doesn't really matter and all the P&I data will be skewed. If a patient exhibits COVID-19 symptoms they will likely test for COVID-19, not flu. They may test negative for COVID-19 but if they die they will now be listed as probable COVID-19 which is why numbers shot up significantly in the last few days. Also because these recent numbers added were "probable" deaths over the entire COVID-19 period,  not just one week.

Yes, I had to assume the bar charts are the only data used in their article as that is what the graphic represents. I didn't read the article though (to be honest) as I don't pay for a subscription from the Post. I'm tempted, however, as I live in the DC area. So I made an educated guess and if you look at the totals will will see the charts match so it is a very limited data set. And sure, it is only in hotspot areas, if you consider DC and CA hotspots. Not sure I do... But I would say not too many people in NYC own cars. Plus not as many people on the roads now. I do hear the same traffic reports of accidents on the radio though!!!  Go figure!!!

Thanks for the clarification re: the CDC percentages.  I stand corrected.

Your post above is, IMO, a good model of how to disagree without being disagreeable.  I appreciate that.   And you do appear to be right re: the first chart being only based on data from the second, which I had not noticed earlier (but should have).  So thanks for pointing that out, too.

Chico Escuela posted:

Your post above is, IMO, a good model of how to disagree without being disagreeable.  I appreciate that.   And you do appear to be right re: the first chart being only based on data from the second, which I had not noticed earlier (but should have).  So thanks for pointing that out, too.

I like to respond in kind if I can help it!  So believe me, I definitely know you are not a disagreeable sort! I've enjoyed your posts for quite some time. Well, most of them anyway!!!

What's befuddling to me is that the CDC doesn't appear to keep prior week copies for FLUView on their site. Or if they do I can't find them!!! So you had to click on the links I provided on the date I posted (Apr 15) in order to see them. They now link to the current week which only shows a rollup of all P&I deaths. Very frustrating. I do see now that they have a way to navigate to prior-weeks COVIDView reports (there is only one prior week thus far) so good on them. Not sure why I can't see previous FLUView's in the same way. Budget??!!

Strange, my post from April 15th said this:

An interesting data point from this week's COVIDView Weekly Summary from the CDC:

• Based on death certificate data, the percentage of deaths attributed to COVID-19 increased from 4.0% during week 13 to 6.9% during week 14. The percentage of deaths due to pneumonia (excluding COVID-19 or influenza) decreased from 7.5% during week 13 to 7.2% during week 14.

* https://www.cdc.gov/coronaviru...ata%2Fcovidview.html

There is only ONE previous week COVIDView listed and here is what it says:

• The percentage of deaths attributed to pneumonia and influenza increased to 8.2% and is above the epidemic threshold of 7.2%. The percent of deaths due to pneumonia has increased sharply since the end of February, while those due to influenza increased modestly through early March and declined this week. This could reflect an increase in deaths from pneumonia caused by non-influenza associated infections including COVID-19.

* https://www.cdc.gov/coronaviru...orts/04-03-2020.html

This is NOT what it said just four days ago. In fact, they changed it to exclude COVID-19 deaths. Strange. It must have been a "live" document.

And now the current week:

• Based on death certificate data, the percentage of deaths attributed to COVID-19, pneumonia or influenza increased from 17.8% during week 14 to 18.8% during week 15.

* https://www.cdc.gov/coronaviru...covidview/index.html

Note the link immediately above will always link to the current week.

The current one seems to jive with what I originally posted for week 14:

COVID %: 6.9

Pneumonia (excluding COVID-19 or influenza) %: 7.2%

Total: 14.1% (excludes flu %)

So based on this week's report, which lists all P&I totals for week 14 being 17.8%, flu % for week 14 must have been 3.7%  (17.8 - 14.1 = 3.7)

Looks like they will break out COVID-19 in next week's report.

All,

I don't know if you've seen this, the oversight has been issue from inception.

Rahm Emmanuel  "Never let a crisis go to waste"

https://www.businessinsider.co...ion-n95-masks-2020-4

CollegebaseballInsights posted:

All,

I don't know if you've seen this, the oversight has been issue from inception.

Rahm Emmanuel  "Never let a crisis go to waste"

 

https://www.businessinsider.co...ion-n95-masks-2020-4

 

Never heard of the "Trump administration" agency. Must be new.

I have heard of FEMA though. I wasn't aware they hired an entirely new set of workers when administrations changed.

ABSORBER posted:

CollegebaseballInsights posted:

All,

I don't know if you've seen this, the oversight has been issue from inception.

Rahm Emmanuel  "Never let a crisis go to waste"

 

https://www.businessinsider.co...ion-n95-masks-2020-4

 

Never heard of the "Trump administration" agency. Must be new.

I have heard of FEMA though. I wasn't aware they hired an entirely new set of workers when administrations changed.

The oversight is with Mnuchin, head of fema is a political position.  

CollegebaseballInsights posted:

ABSORBER posted:

CollegebaseballInsights posted:

All,

I don't know if you've seen this, the oversight has been issue from inception.

Rahm Emmanuel  "Never let a crisis go to waste"

 

https://www.businessinsider.co...ion-n95-masks-2020-4

 

Never heard of the "Trump administration" agency. Must be new.

I have heard of FEMA though. I wasn't aware they hired an entirely new set of workers when administrations changed.

The oversight is with Mnuchin, head of fema is a political position.  

$2 trillion+ in brand new federal funds are rolling off the proverbial presses in coming months.  There is going to be graft, waste and profiteering.  I hope the media ferrets out what they can, whether it makes someone on my political "team" look bad or someone on yours.  I saw the story above a few days ago.  If it the details are in fact as the story makes them appear, then maybe some heads need to roll--whatever party the bodies attached to them are registered with.     

CollegebaseballInsights posted:

ABSORBER posted:

CollegebaseballInsights posted:

All,

I don't know if you've seen this, the oversight has been issue from inception.

Rahm Emmanuel  "Never let a crisis go to waste"

 

https://www.businessinsider.co...ion-n95-masks-2020-4

 

Never heard of the "Trump administration" agency. Must be new.

I have heard of FEMA though. I wasn't aware they hired an entirely new set of workers when administrations changed.

The oversight is with Mnuchin, head of fema is a political position.  

And I'm sure that all agency heads make all the decisions for their agencies. I'm a government agency employee and I can assure you, this is not the case. I suppose if you show some documentation that shows "Mnuchin" awarded the contract himself I may believe you. Until then writers should quit authoring articles like this and readers should quit paying for tabloids.

That's exactly why we have political division in our country, i.e. "fake news".

Is anyone ready to consider this radical thought.....the number of people who are going to die from this no matter what we do is going to pretty much the same as if we did nothing other than start wearing masks, not rubbing our faces, washing our hands more and keeping a little space between us?  What if 60-70K was the number of people that were going to die regardless.  The only thing that will change the number is an effective treatment unless we are willing to stop living until that time comes.  No thanks.  This thing is probably going to be survived by roughly 99% or more of the people that contract it when the numbers are in. 

What if a vaccine is never developed much like the flu and common cold?  What will happen?  We will develop immunity to one degree or another and carry on.   That outcome unlike the models is actual science.  Darwin espoused it 175 years ago.  People will continue to die from this for a very long time.

As for politics - I made the Trump quip about saving 2million in jest to set up the larger point which is the models are preposterous which has nothing to do with politics other than who is generating them to what purpose.

As for Mencken - he was right and for proof we don't need look any further than a man who would print his picture with the word Hope under it in six inch lettering.   I think you will be able to see what I am talking about if you look up ego maniac in the dictionary - the picture should be there.

On the other hand it is possible....maybe even probable....that anyone that runs for President believing they have answers to the worlds problems HAS to be an ego maniac.  Think about it so that you can realize that every man that has had that office in your lifetime is flawed in some way or another and then try to grow up a little.  

I can't wait to go back to work - I am getting a little cranky I think.

luv baseball posted:

What if 60-70K was the number of people that were going to die regardless.  . . . . This thing is probably going to be survived by roughly 99% or more of the people that contract it when the numbers are in.

No-one who makes models dispute that more people would have died if we hadn't taken measures to lessen that rate.  No-one.  Where people differ is whether we should have allowed those deaths either (a) to save the economy, (b) to create herd immunity, or (c) let us keep doing what we wanted if we didn't care about dead people.  Sweden decided they would go that route; as of right now they have 1,540 deaths, as opposed to 165 deaths for Norway and 355 for Denmark.  Sweden's population is twice Norway's and almost that for Denmark, but they have 9 times the number of deaths as Norway, and four times that of Denmark.

If "only" 1% of people in the US die of coronavirus, that is 3.25 million people.  In 2019, 2.8 million people died in the US total, of everything.

ABSORBER posted:

JCG posted:

TPM, RJM, cabbagedad, fenwaysouth, PGStaff, CaCO3Girl, justbaseball, BishopLeftiesDad, hshuler, roothog66, smokeminside, BOF, Coach_May, Consultant, Swampboy, Gov, tequila, Iowmamom, CoachB25, Ripken Fan, infielddad, PitchingFan, Branson Baseball, hokieone, Zia, BK-CatcherDad, Bacdorslider, Sunwalkingvalley, MAM, nycdad, Eokerholm, Chico Esquala & Twoboys

I know I missed quite a few. Apologies.  If you believe that you would do a better job than Trump, you are very probably right. 

Out.

Let the draft begin!!! Who's up first??!!

Has this list been cross- checked?

smokeminside posted:

ABSORBER posted:

JCG posted:

TPM, RJM, cabbagedad, fenwaysouth, PGStaff, CaCO3Girl, justbaseball, BishopLeftiesDad, hshuler, roothog66, smokeminside, BOF, Coach_May, Consultant, Swampboy, Gov, tequila, Iowmamom, CoachB25, Ripken Fan, infielddad, PitchingFan, Branson Baseball, hokieone, Zia, BK-CatcherDad, Bacdorslider, Sunwalkingvalley, MAM, nycdad, Eokerholm, Chico Esquala & Twoboys

I know I missed quite a few. Apologies.  If you believe that you would do a better job than Trump, you are very probably right. 

Out.

Let the draft begin!!! Who's up first??!!

Has this list been cross- checked?

It has not 

adbono posted:

smokeminside posted:

ABSORBER posted:

JCG posted:

TPM, RJM, cabbagedad, fenwaysouth, PGStaff, CaCO3Girl, justbaseball, BishopLeftiesDad, hshuler, roothog66, smokeminside, BOF, Coach_May, Consultant, Swampboy, Gov, tequila, Iowmamom, CoachB25, Ripken Fan, infielddad, PitchingFan, Branson Baseball, hokieone, Zia, BK-CatcherDad, Bacdorslider, Sunwalkingvalley, MAM, nycdad, Eokerholm, Chico Esquala & Twoboys

I know I missed quite a few. Apologies.  If you believe that you would do a better job than Trump, you are very probably right. 

Out.

Let the draft begin!!! Who's up first??!!

Has this list been cross- checked?

It has not 

I guess that I missed the part where I mentioned Trump or critiqued his handling of this situation. But at least I’m in good company. 😁

The assumption that 328 million will end up infected is flawed as much as 328 million will catch a cold this year. As I stated - unless we are willing to retreat into caves the number of people that will get infected will be what it is...there is no changing that.  The moment we come out the thing will run it course.  The masks etc. offer some mitigation of the spread but only some.  None of that eliminates risk.

The number that die absent a treatment also will be what it will be....nothing will change that either.  Will we find a treatment in less than 12 to 18 months ....perhaps.... but we cannot count on it.

Slowing the spread is not stopping the spread - otherwise no-one would have gotten sick in the last month since the orders to stay home were issued in mid-March.  That obviously didn't happen.

Flatten the curve is not eliminate the curve.  It takes the number of people that will become ill and spreads them out over a longer period of time.  Are the numbers marginally different than had we done nothing....I'll grant that but noone can really say by how much.  I am thinking it much less than we are being led to believe.  For example a trip to McDonalds is probably equally dangerous from the fries or milkshake than the virus.

But the Trump point prevails here IMO.  There were never going to be anywhere near 2 Million dead.....that just wasn't in the cards.  I doubt we have had a 97% reduction in deaths by simply sort of staying in our houses and the rest.  That is and always was ridicules and was designed to scare the hell out of us to comply and it worked.

If they had come out with something like....well this is going to be a wicked bad flu season and we want you all to stay home we would have told them to go to hell.  The events of the last few days around the country are evidence of this point.  

There is no proof we have saved a huge number of lives by staying home ...we have only delayed the outcome UNLESS we find a cure or are willing to end life as we have known it by being reduced to quivering quislings hiding in our basemant.  

luv baseball, who is the "they" behind this nefarious conspiracy theory?  And how did they get to Fauci, Birx, and so many other medical and public health professionals?  And get so many other countries to go along?

Disagree (using 20/20 hindsight) with the decisions elected officials from both parties in most of the nation took if you want.  But there is no shadowy cabal behind the events of the past few months.

luv baseball posted:

Slowing the spread is not stopping the spread - otherwise no-one would have gotten sick in the last month since the orders to stay home were issued in mid-March.  That obviously didn't happen.

??  A large number of cases were among people who had essential jobs, from doctors and nurses to bus drivers to food producers.  Other large clusters were among people who ignored the recommendations.  Everyone knew it wouldn't stop the spread, but slowing it down was crucial.

Every single day there are new pieces of data that are useful for helping to predict and treat the disease.  We've been shut down for one month.  It took doctors two weeks to figure out that if they put patients who needed oxygen on their stomachs, they did better.  There are treatments that we can start to see are working.  We know better who is at high risk, and why.  Antibody tests are telling us how many have been exposed - not maybe, not my guess or your guess, but actual data.

By slowing the spread, we have allowed space for doctors and hospitals to actually treat all the cases, and more important, we have allowed space for scientists to discover things that give everyone more confidence to come back.   Without that confidence, it's not going to happen.  If the CDC, FDA, etc. facilitates a set of procedures for testing, and clear guidance on best practices for avoiding and treating this disease, then the confidence of people in this country will rise.  That is, in fact, why some people were pushing chloroquine, because they recognized that boosting confidence was important (unfortunately, they didn't have data to back that one up).  Without that confidence, the economic stuff isn't going to recover quickly.

anotherparent posted:

It took doctors two weeks to figure out that if they put patients who needed oxygen on their stomachs, they did better. 

Gotta wonder why it took COVID-19 for medical doctors to realize moving a person into the prone position helps with breathing.

Every kid who's had the breath knocked out of them figures it out in about 3 seconds.

I'm no respiratory therapist but I've known quite a few. And if there any on here I'm sure they could chime in.

ABSORBER posted:

anotherparent posted:

It took doctors two weeks to figure out that if they put patients who needed oxygen on their stomachs, they did better. 

Gotta wonder why it took COVID-19 for medical doctors to realize moving a person into the prone position helps with breathing.

Every kid who's had the breath knocked out of them figures it out in about 3 seconds.

I'm no respiratory therapist but I've known quite a few. And if there any on here I'm sure they could chime in.

The point of my post above was to show that "turn a patient onto their stomach" may just be another example of fake news. Lying on your stomach does not kill bacteria in your infected lungs and therefore is no cure for COVID-19 and the ailments caused by it as your body fights this virus. Sure it may help for a few minutes when a patient is having trouble breathing but it is certainly not a treatment and I doubt it's part of any protocol of any treating doctor or medical facility other than quick relief. And I have to think a sick patient lying on their stomach for any prolonged period could lead to all sorts of other complications. It's likely just a "feel good" story that's gathered momentum.

ABSORBER posted:

ABSORBER posted:

anotherparent posted:

It took doctors two weeks to figure out that if they put patients who needed oxygen on their stomachs, they did better. 

Gotta wonder why it took COVID-19 for medical doctors to realize moving a person into the prone position helps with breathing.

Every kid who's had the breath knocked out of them figures it out in about 3 seconds.

I'm no respiratory therapist but I've known quite a few. And if there any on here I'm sure they could chime in.

The point of my post above was to show that "turn a patient onto their stomach" may just be another example of fake news. Lying on your stomach does not kill bacteria in your infected lungs and therefore is no cure for COVID-19 and the ailments caused by it as your body fights this virus. Sure it may help for a few minutes when a patient is having trouble breathing but it is certainly not a treatment and I doubt it's part of any protocol of any treating doctor or medical facility other than quick relief. And I have to think a sick patient lying on their stomach for any prolonged period could lead to all sorts of other complications. It's likely just a "feel good" story that's gathered momentum.

It takes the weight of the heart off the lungs and allows more space for oxygen to fill them. So yes, it's a real thing. It's called prone positioning.

Chico Escuela posted: 

$2 trillion+ in brand new federal funds are rolling off the proverbial presses in coming months.  There is going to be graft, waste and profiteering.  I hope the media ferrets out what they can, whether it makes someone on my political "team" look bad or someone on yours.  I saw the story above a few days ago.  If it the details are in fact as the story makes them appear, then maybe some heads need to roll--whatever party the bodies attached to them are registered with.     

One thing that has become abundantly clear is that the media will not do this.  They will twist, distort, pull out-of-context, tell half-truths to make their side look good and Trump look bad.  This you can bet the house on.

SomeBaseballDad posted:

It takes the weight of the heart off the lungs and allows more space for oxygen to fill them. So yes, it's a real thing. It's called prone positioning.

I'm not saying it's not a real thing. As I said, any kid who's had the breath knock out of them figures it out pretty quickly. It's just not some new and wonderful discovery that "took doctors two weeks to figure out" while we have been in lockdown. That's the fake news.

ABSORBER posted:

SomeBaseballDad posted:

It takes the weight of the heart off the lungs and allows more space for oxygen to fill them. So yes, it's a real thing. It's called prone positioning.

I'm not saying it's not a real thing. As I said, any kid who's had the breath knock out of them figures it out pretty quickly. It's just not some new and wonderful discovery that "took doctors two weeks to figure out" while we have been in lockdown. That's the fake news.

"Fake news" started as a description of foreign propagandists knowingly distributing false information in news articles or social media posts disguised as news articles.  Then  a certain stable genius rebranded it as term used to describe anything that is critical of him.

Now I don't know what it means.  Just anything anybody happens to disagree with?  Or is it now a synonym for pieces that are poorly written or shoddily researched or just lazy reporting?  Whatever - the effect of all this noise is that  "fake  news" in the original meaning is less likely to be flagged, and that 's dangerous..

Fifteen seconds on Google turned up  these pieces, among many others.  The writers vary in professionalism and talent, but I don't see anything fake about the pieces.  The one thing I don't see on a quick read, that I saw in a similar piece somewhere is that doctors are alarmed by the high mortality rate among ventilated patients and are trying to avoid that any way they can, including with pronation.  In one hospital in NY, I think, the are juryrigging CPAP machines.  Anyway, these seem like honest attempts to report the news.  What am i missing? 

https://boston.cbslocal.com/20...s-prone-positioning/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/v...e-care/#4f996f34655b

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/14...sitioning/index.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/ne...ances-surviving.html

Gotta wonder why everyone thinks testing will solve the issue of whether we are good to go opening things up.

a. We are looking for 3% - 12% infection which says we are less than the current 20% infection rate. So, I guess the thinking is fewer people have it so we are safe.

b. Agressive antibody testing. We are looking to see if more people than we know have already had it. Which would mean we are over the hump.

They seem to be in contradiction. Either we are safe because people haven't been infected or we are safe because lots of people have had it (herd immunity). Of course the real answer is we aren't safe until we've achieved herd immunity but that can't happen until lots of people have had it. So what's the better scenario?

Or of course we are just buying time until the beginning of summer (I'm betting less than 1 month) and the virus rolls out of here like many other respiratory infectious diseases. And then when the respiratory infection season rolls around again we could see a second wave: as in (a) above. Which means we are just delaying for the summer and back at in in late fall/early winter.

Or if (b) shows we are largely infected I guess the lockdown didn't achieve what it was supposed to achieve.

Here's hoping for (b) which means we will have failed and yet we will have won. Except for our economy of course...

Some doctors worry that illness and mortality from unaddressed health issues may rival the carnage produced by the virus in regions less affected by covid-19. And some expect they will soon see patients who have dangerously delayed seeking care as ongoing symptoms force them to overcome their fear.

Yet the 700-bed hospital in Charleston is only about 60 percent full, because like most facilities, MUSC discharged everyone it could to make room for the expected coronavirus surge. So far that hasn’t materialized. The hospital has not had more than 10 covid-19 patients admitted at any time, he said.

“We have five covid patients in the hospital right now, and we have five appendicitis cases” with complications from waiting too long to come in for care, Eriksson said.

Here

JCG posted:

https://boston.cbslocal.com/20...s-prone-positioning/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/v...e-care/#4f996f34655b

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/14...sitioning/index.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/ne...ances-surviving.html

Add this one:

https://www.foxnews.com/media/...tween-life-and-death

It's entirely possible that it's all fake.  I read them all now, I don't really like any of them.  Best is to read medical preprints on MedRxiv.

JCG posted:

"Fake news" started as a description of foreign propagandists knowingly distributing false information in news articles or social media posts disguised as news articles.

ABSORBER posted:

Gotta wonder why everyone thinks testing will solve the issue of whether we are good to go opening things up.

a. We are looking for 3% - 12% infection which says we are less than the current 20% infection rate. So, I guess the thinking is fewer people have it so we are safe.

b. Agressive antibody testing. We are looking to see if more people than we know have already had it. Which would mean we are over the hump.

It's about confidence.  If lots of people have had it (without knowing it), then the mortality rate is much, much lower.  How much lower do we need for confidence, is the question?  If fewer people have it, then it's much, much less likely for anyone to get it, even if they have to go to a doctor or hospital for something else.  Again, that will make them more confident about getting back to normal.  Right now, there is no confidence, because literally no-one knows. 

They are testing hardly anyone in my town, or even my state.  So, I have no idea what the situation actually is, only the death rates.  

ABSORBER posted:

SomeBaseballDad posted:

It takes the weight of the heart off the lungs and allows more space for oxygen to fill them. So yes, it's a real thing. It's called prone positioning.

I'm not saying it's not a real thing. As I said, any kid who's had the breath knock out of them figures it out pretty quickly. It's just not some new and wonderful discovery that "took doctors two weeks to figure out" while we have been in lockdown. That's the fake news.

My husband is a severe asthmatic struggling through this pandemic. He was hospitalized in November with pneumonia, in January with a bronchial infection and February kidneys sterted to fail due to all the treatments, antibiotics, prednisone. He might have had the virus. He is waiting to get tested when doctor said he can.

He still doesn't feel well, which is typical of older corona survivors.

What SBD is describing, has been around for  a long time, this is how they treated people with pneumonia before all new treatments came into vogue and now the norm.

It's not fake news and has nothing to do with getting the wind knocked out of you, in which case most remain lying on their back.

TPM posted:

ABSORBER posted:

SomeBaseballDad posted:

It takes the weight of the heart off the lungs and allows more space for oxygen to fill them. So yes, it's a real thing. It's called prone positioning.

I'm not saying it's not a real thing. As I said, any kid who's had the breath knock out of them figures it out pretty quickly. It's just not some new and wonderful discovery that "took doctors two weeks to figure out" while we have been in lockdown. That's the fake news.

My husband is a severe asthmatic struggling through this pandemic. He was hospitalized in November with pneumonia, in January with a bronchial infection and February kidneys sterted to fail due to all the treatments, antibiotics, prednisone. He might have had the virus. He is waiting to get tested when doctor said he can.

He still doesn't feel well, which is typical of older corona survivors.

What SBD is describing, has been around for  a long time, this is how they treated people with pneumonia before all new treatments came into vogue and now the norm.

It's not fake news and has nothing to do with getting the wind knocked out of you, in which case most remain lying on their back.

 

Dang, I can't win any arguments on this #@$# forum!!

Sorry to hear about your husband; I hope he feels better.

I am guessing you haven't had the wind knocked out of you too many times. Sure people may get on their back initially but then find they can't breathe which is why they generally get on their hands and knees after that--and that's what you should instruct them to do if you are helping them out.

It certainly is tough to get your point across on this site. The fake news is that "doctors discovered this in the last two weeks"--and I think I quoted that in every one of my responses.

ABSORBER posted:

JCG posted:

"Fake news" started as a description of foreign propagandists knowingly distributing false information in news articles or social media posts disguised as news articles.

My definition of fake news: instead of reporting facts, pick and choose certain facts (or not)  and arrange them in such a way as to push your agenda and/or institute change.

 

That's not news. That's fake news. And yes, our news media does exactly what you describe foreign propagandists (foreign intelligence services) as doing. Instead, our news media wants to push their agenda and institute change in our own country.

 

I understand that you believe this. I don't. The fact that so many people have come to share your view is the 2nd most important achievement of modern movement conservatism.

But anyway, I still don't see what's fake about those pieces. Maybe there are some on the topic, but I have not seen them.

O.k., I'm the one who called it news.  I'm perfectly happy to say that doctors always knew this, but then they realized that it was better for COVID patients than ventilators, and could actually improve things enough that they didn't need ventilators.  The news was that they had tested the blood oxygen levels of people with coronvirus who were placed on their stomachs, and that the oxygen levels went back up to normal.  That was the news.  Given that every single news-site reported it, and that the following set of instructions recommend it (implying that it was not generally being used), perhaps we might consider it news:

https://emcrit.org/wp-content/...onscious-proning.pdf

JCG posted:

ABSORBER posted:

JCG posted:

"Fake news" started as a description of foreign propagandists knowingly distributing false information in news articles or social media posts disguised as news articles.

My definition of fake news: instead of reporting facts, pick and choose certain facts (or not)  and arrange them in such a way as to push your agenda and/or institute change.

 

That's not news. That's fake news. And yes, our news media does exactly what you describe foreign propagandists (foreign intelligence services) as doing. Instead, our news media wants to push their agenda and institute change in our own country.

 

I understand that you believe this. I don't. The fact that so many people have come to share your view is the 2nd most important achievement of modern movement conservatism.

But anyway, I still don't see what's fake about those pieces. Maybe there are some on the topic, but I have not seen them.

JCG,

Just curious - what would you call what Absorber describes, if not fake news?

There is not a single media outlet that just reports facts. If there were, I woul choose or. I hate that agenda is built into every single news piece.  Watch this, if it doesn’t concern you about news in the United States, it should.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_RHKmOovMfM

abd drifting further from baseball...

Smitty28 posted:

JCG posted:

ABSORBER posted:

JCG posted:

"Fake news" started as a description of foreign propagandists knowingly distributing false information in news articles or social media posts disguised as news articles.

My definition of fake news: instead of reporting facts, pick and choose certain facts (or not)  and arrange them in such a way as to push your agenda and/or institute change.

 

That's not news. That's fake news. And yes, our news media does exactly what you describe foreign propagandists (foreign intelligence services) as doing. Instead, our news media wants to push their agenda and institute change in our own country.

 

I understand that you believe this. I don't. The fact that so many people have come to share your view is the 2nd most important achievement of modern movement conservatism.

But anyway, I still don't see what's fake about those pieces. Maybe there are some on the topic, but I have not seen them.

JCG,

Just curious - what would you call what Absorber describes, if not fake news?

Fox News.

TPM posted:

My husband is a severe asthmatic struggling through this pandemic. He was hospitalized in November with pneumonia, in January with a bronchial infection and February kidneys sterted to fail due to all the treatments, antibiotics, prednisone. He might have had the virus. He is waiting to get tested when doctor said he can.

He still doesn't feel well, which is typical of older corona survivors.

I hope that your husband is doing all right.  It is beyond ridiculous that someone like him has not already been tested for this virus.

I never said which media and in fact I meant both sides of the fence. And I don't care for either side or any "side". I just want news! Facts! I really don't know where to turn for just plain news. BBC maybe? They seem to do a slightly better job at reporting U.S. news.

baseballhs posted:

There is not a single media outlet that just reports facts. If there were, I woul choose or. I hate that agenda is built into every single news piece. 

So would I, and so would many other people.  I like ABC News, they have more stories about what is actually happening in the world, and fewer (but not no) opinion pieces.

RJM posted:

CollegebaseballInsights posted:

luv baseball posted:

Several thoughts -

If it is true this was going to kill 2.2 million in US as was predicted at one point then Trump limiting it to 60k makes him the unquestioned greatest president in our history - his actions have saved over 2 million lives and he is a hero for all time.

If you are not prepared to go that far.... then one must ponder the possibility that to a certain degree the medical people are pulling shit out of their asses and really don't know what is going to happen and are hazarding educated guesses.  IMO this is much closer to the truth than there was ever going to be 2.2 million deaths.

This argument may have merit because no matter how much the Chinese are lying it is now doubtful this was ever as lethal as it was hyped to be in March.  This does not mean it was not dangerous or that any mitigation was not warranted.  But did we overreact?  Someday we can assess that point.

Now we must consider recent news that the Chinese knowingly allowed this to spread globally.  That means that is was an intentional act that is now responsible for roughly 20X Pearl Harbor or 9/11 deaths in US making it the most dangerous attack in US history.  It will kill more US ciizens than either Vietnam or Korea. 

We need to recognize this for what it was - a state sponsored decision to not contain it and to disrupt the world. It  was reckless at best or criminal/terroristic at worst.  IMO it is the later and we need to stop calling this thing anything but the Wuhan Virus.  Naming names is part of the accountability that must happen.  

Given that our greatest streagth as a nation is our economy the notion of putting it back on track has to be the highest priority if in fact we are now in a war (as I think we are) with the Chinese.  What that means is that similar to the Cold War every citizen is now a soldier and needs to do their duty and go back to work if they are able. 

It is now time for all of us to start pulling on the same end of he rope again.  God Bless America.  

"If it is true this was going to kill 2.2 million in US as was predicted at one point then Trump limiting it to 60k makes him the unquestioned greatest president in our history - his actions have saved over 2 million lives and he is a hero for all time."

 

Thanks for the laugh, the ditherer in chief called it a hoax, ignored intelligence, didn't mobilize the DPA quick enough.

Wants to blame WHO, but not the leader of China, because he has authoritarian characteristics.

 

Trump never called it a hoax. He called the media a hoax. The media is claiming he called the virus a hoax. Yet liberals don’t want to admit it and cling to this lie.

The first person died in 2/28. Trump shut down the border and the media and Democrats (sorry for the redundancy) screamed “xenophobia.” 

Late February Nancy Pelosi was parading around San Francisco’s Chinatown telling people to ignore COVID and to eat out since there was nothing to be afraid of. Democrat NYC Mayor DiBlasio and the NYC Health Director were telling people the same two weeks later.

It’s looking to me like Democrats were asleep at the wheel trying to remove Trump from office (impeachment) over fraudulent charges and calling him a xenophobe over shutting down travel when they could have been paying attention to world affairs that could affect the county.

The last Democrat I posted this at told me I was dumber than a bag of rocks and he hopes I die from COVID so there would be one less stupid person in the world. They’re just facts. I thought he would appreciate facts, not get upset with them.

Revisionist history POtuS 50 - 8 + 3  state there was only 15 cases in the United States and they will be gone soon.

Can't make this stuff up.

FACTS ARE STUBBORN THINGS