It's true, You never know who's watching!

Really? Your son, a talented baseball player (or not), would make a decision about college over something that happened at age 10? And you support that?

Well, if your story is true...sadly your son is displaying a trait that will hold him back in the real world. People that hold grudges from last week, let alone age 10, miss wonderful opportunities due to their stubbornness and simply will not be effective in dealing with teammates, coaches...and someday colleagues, supervisors and customers.

That is an odd situation. First thing that comes to mind:

What did a 10 year old player or better yet, parent (at the time) expect from a university summer camp?

Not sure why your son wouldn't take the calls at the age of 17 (fast forward 7 years)? Is he already committed?

I guess you showed that coach...

** EDIT ** justbaseball - well said.

Carol,

Time to let it go.

Baseball coaches understand statistics, and the statistics say that only a very small fraction of 10-year-old baseball players...even ones who seem to have promising futures ahead of them...make it to the level your son has achieved (and he's to be congratulated for having done so!).

So many things can and do happen between the ages of 10 and 17 to cause so many of them to fall by the wayside. I'm sure that you can think of a number of your son's peers who seemed like such fine players when they were younger; only to see them leave the scene for any number of reasons.

So, my first piece of advice to your son would be to try to put himself in the coach's shoes. Confronted with a mix of campers, the oldest of whom are on the doorstep of college baseball, who's going to get the most "looks?"

My final piece of advice would be to recognize what a small world baseball is at its upper reaches. The pyramid, as they say, does narrow considerably; and those who tend to make it are part of a strong, close, and vital network. Given that context, closing doors and burning bridges are acts that need to be thought long and hard about before they're acted upon.

Best wishes to your son!

Thanks to you folks for your insights. Yes, I realize that a weeklong camp when a kid is 10 years old is not enough upon which to make a college decision. My only thought when I originally posted was to reinforce the idea for all of us (myself mostly) that we never know who is watching us and will make judgments - right or wrong - based on a small glimpse. Again, thanks for your comments.

Certainly agree with everyone's comments. But, just think what an impact that Coach, or one of the coaches, could have had by just taking a few minutes of time to spend with some little boys. Five minutes could have made an incredible difference and lasting impression...particularly for your son.

Outfielder makes a great point. I know that these are money-making ventures for the college programs and that they may be looking at a few of the older kids.

I don't think the point is that they weren't looking at the younger kids (which would have been ridiculous) but that the coach didn't even spend any time with these kids. Most of these camps advertise that the coaching staff will work with the players. This also speaks to the character of the coach.

Wow. This thread took an interesting turn.

One of the main reasons for a camp is for the coach to show off their school and form lasting impressions.

When a kid acts on that impression, it's called a "grudge"?

I'd say the kid made the right decision by avoiding a coach that can't run a camp and show some respect to all the participants.

Kudos to your boy, carol.

The "you never know who's watching" comments are almost always pointed at players. But it applies to coaches too. Coaches should remember players are always watching...how you treat players, how you treat non-player students, your level of engagement, your attention to detail, your ability to be organized and return emails/phone calls, etc. Those observations are absolutely valid input into a players selection of a coach/school.

Very interesting!

A similar thing happened with us when 2013 was a HS freshman and we took him to a college night event in town. It's a very large event with almost 200 colleges and universities represented, and we had him walk up to the tables and talk to the reps from the schools, just to learn more and to see how this all works when you are looking at colleges.

99% of them were delighted that he was there and explained to him what he needed to know, even though he didn't really know what to ask yet. They knew it was a teachable moment and he was learning about the college application/search process. Statistics show that the earlier you engage a student in thinking about college, the more likely they will be to enroll.

Unfortunately, the rep of one mid-sized private D-I in our state was not at all receptive. When he asked for any materials about their school that he could bring with him (like he had received from the other college reps), she asked what year he was in school. When he said freshman, she replied that the handouts were only for juniors and seniors.

We promptly fired off an email expressing our significant disappointment in the experience. We explained that in a time of serious competition for students and plummeting enrollments, they had just removed themselves from our consideration. Oh, and by the way, our son is an honors student and potential student-athlete who would have represented your institution very well.

Got a mea culpa with an offer for a free t-shirt . . . they certainly never meant to alienate anyone and it's great that he was considering college early . . .

We never replied and 2013 has never set foot on their campus. Grudge? Perhaps. But, boy, they did not make a good first impression and we have told that story many, many times to others looking at colleges.

2013 attended a few major D-I camps at the age of 10-12 also, and we were pleasantly surprised that he told us the coaches watched they play a few minutes every day and always said hello and shook their hands. Even the little guys. I think it's good recruiting practice.

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
Wow. This thread took an interesting turn.

One of the main reasons for a camp is for the coach to show off their school and form lasting impressions.

When a kid acts on that impression, it's called a "grudge"?

I'd say the kid made the right decision by avoiding a coach that can't run a camp and show some respect to all the participants.

Kudos to your boy, carol.

So, Sultan, a player is good enough to be drafted. Scouts from 3 teams come to see him. One spends all kinds of time with the player, returns to see him and brings in a cross checker.
Scout 2 meets the kid for 3 minutes, says to "keep in touch," is short with the kid and leaves.
Scout 3 says nothing. Watches 2 innings and leaves.
Come draft day, the phone rings twice in the 9th round. It is scouts 2 and 3. Want to pick the player in the 10th round. Will he sign?
This happens all the time in baseball, life and business after baseball.
Because of a perception from years past, we pack our bags and go home and refuse to talk?
Gonna wait for that scout who was nice..even if that scout never calls?
Wouldn't the adult thing for this player be for him to talk with the Coach and do the adult thing and explain his issue with the Coach and program?
Why not teach our son's to act like adults as they reach adult years, rather than supporting them acting like a child based on a perceived "snub" when they were a child?

As I mentioned elsewhere, one of my favorite bits of advice comes from classic Honeymooners TV show. Ralph says to Ed Norton: "Be kind to the people you meet on the way up--they're the same people you meet on the way down." Doesn't matter if you're a Little Leaguer, high school stud--or a collegiate coach!

BTW, Norton replies, "How true, how true...I experience that everyday working in the sewer."

I think this thread is a great lesson for those who have not been the recruiting process.

Rule number 1. Don’t take it personal.

I realize these are our children and it is impossible to have a perspective on it, but you have to just let some things go and not take it personal. These include ignoring you, appearing to be interested then never calling, saying your going to call and not calling, calling but not really interested, ect ect, the list is endless.

Finding the right match is hard enough without adding the extra variable called “chip on the shoulder”.

I think it was put best by BUM: Let it go mom.

I would only add to BUM’s comment is “do unto others as you would have them do unto you” Use this as a teaching moment and teach humility and respect regardless of the circumstance.

I wish FO was around, because he was always good in these type of discussions. It was he who coined the phrase "musical chairs" for baseball and in the recruiting game, the chairs are simply too precious to concede....

carol - I understand where you are coming from. The snubs and slights never go away in this game and as justbb points out, they never go away in life either. Encourage your son to derive his satisfaction from the game itself and giving more to the game than it gives him. He can't control what others give him so encourage his pleasure to come simply from the joy he gets out of playing it.

As to the musical chairs, I'll do some quick estimates for you. There are probably about 300 D1, D2, D3, JUCO, and NAIA schools giving us approximately 1800 schools to chose from at the "next" level. With about 30 roster spots at each school, that yields about 54,000 spots. We have about 500,000 senior boys in high school who are going to have to go out and compete for one of those few precious spots which some are obviously already occupied by upperclassmen. The numbers are even more daunting when we consider how many kids might actually get to play which is far fewer than the number of roster spots. My point here is maybe your son has five schools interested in him right now and feels he can afford to not return a coach's call. That could cost him dearly. While the other coaches in the mix might be high on him, this one coach might now be in love with him and that could mean all the difference in the world.

My ultimate point is the baseball world is extremely small at the next level. There are not enough chairs for all the participants. I would not advise him to rig the game against himself by unecessarily refusing to sit in some of the chairs.

If you are going to run a camp for such a large age group and advertise that the coaches will work with everyone and that doesn't happen, the youngest kids are ignored, that's no way to run any type of business.

It is very telling of his character in my mind. Why would anyone think he would pay attention to the guys on his team that aren't starters? If you are going to take my money, just like everyone else's then provide the same level of service. Seems easy to understand a kid was disappointed and is lucky enough to have options. He get's to pick who he wants to play for and he used the information available to him. Nothing wrong with that.

What's wrong with a coach who can't take 10 minutes each day to encourage the youngest participants? Not my kind of guy either Carol. I'm with your son and glad he had the chance to make his own decision. He had a little window into the reality of the program. It obviously would have meant a great deal to him to have had the coach pay a little attention to him (isn't that what you paid for at 10?) and he was disappointed. Too bad the guy couldn't have spared 10 minutes.

If any of your kids are fortunate enough to play pro baseball...I am really looking forward to the posts about how Junior feels about that experience.

quote:

My point here is maybe your son has five schools interested in him right now and feels he can afford to not return a coach's call. That could cost him dearly. While the other coaches in the mix might be high on him, this one coach might now be in love with him and that could mean all the difference in the world.

I think this is excellent general advice. However, and I think it helps to understand carol's perspective on this, we should recognize that carol's son is a sophomore in college, and playing baseball. Apparently he was able to handle the risks.

justbaseball,

the same way Ken Griffey Jr. felt about the Yankees because Billy Martin was not nice to him in the locker room when his father played there.

I can understand not wanting to talk to that coach. (I can understand calling him anyway.) I think the point was well made that coaches should remember that they, too, are being watched. For players that end up with options, attending a college where the head coach garners your respect (at least when you make your decision) is important. The reality is that coaches are less likely to regret their behavior or how it is interpreted than players are to regret their behavior. However - if you believe that behavior you saw from a coach 10 years ago when he was not trying to recruit you offers you a different perspective on the potential relationship you might have with him than the behavior you see now - by all means figure it into the analysis.

If the post had been about an exceptional camp experience of a 10 year old and the great caring coach that was at the camp - you would certainly consider that whe later being recruited by that coach. It might tip the scales in his favor. This might do the opposite.

To loosely quote Coach May on a post earlier this year, "Treat others the way you want to be treated, not the way you think you have been treated." Holding grudges takes energy, let it go.

quote:

Originally posted by HVbaseballDAD:
justbaseball,

the same way Ken Griffey Jr. felt about the Yankees because Billy Martin was not nice to him in the locker room when his father played there.

Are you serious? You want to advise a 17-year old trying to pick a college...a decision that will play a big part in defining the rest of his life to use this example as the model?

Have you navigated your own professional career in whatever field it is...this way?

I'm all for using situations like this as motivational tools...but really?...hang onto something that you perceived happened to you at 10-years old and let it affect one of the most important decisions of your (son's) life? What point are you winning with that mode of operation? Even if you somehow make a point in your own mind, does anyone really care but you?

Good luck with that.

quote:

Have you navigated your own professional career in whatever field it is...this way?

I navigate my professional career every day like that. If I do not respect the people I work for and with, I have a choice to not work with them. The same goes for this young man. He has a choice and is exercising it. Good for him!

There are plenty of opportunities out there. If you see fit to compromise your values - good for you.

It's true, You never know who's watching!

This actually pertains to everyone in nearly every walk of life. I think that was what "carol" was getting at. It left a unneeded negative impression which certainly did not benefit that coach.

I told a scouting director that there is something we do better than evaluate players. We are able to scout the scouts! We see and hear things he might never know regarding how someone works, how late they stay, how they conduct themselves, how much they pay attention, how they represent their organization, etc.

It's odd what people will do, or not do, sometimes when they think no one important is watching. It doesn't just pertain to players.

Nothing is more important than seeing what people do when they think no one is watching. That technique of watching (being invisible) is used a lot and has provided valuable information.

Actually this is probably not worth mentioning because I'm sure everyone here already knows it.

Now think about it... Do you really think a group of very young players were completely ignored at a week long camp, possibly an overnight camp? Seriously doubt that. But, from the perspective of a 10 yr. olds observation & impression, it may of seemed like that to him at the time. Obviously, someone had to be Coaching & instructing the fundamentals & mechanics of the game of Baseball to them. And yes, Coaches were in all likeness, giving a different level of time & attention to players that were at recruiting ages, and/or observations were made in areas that needed fine tuning and adjustments, in order to help players of a recruitment age, advance & reach their goals. As a parent, I wouldn't of expected anything more or less. All in good time, all in good time.

quote:

Originally posted by HVbaseballDAD:
...If I do not respect the people I work for and with, I have a choice to not work with them...

Agree with that statement.

quote:

There are plenty of opportunities out there. If you see fit to compromise your values - good for you.

On this one...you crack me up. If you call holding a grudge from a baseball camp at 10-years old a "value," well then we have very different values. I don't hold grudges from last week let alone last year or 10-years old. It takes too much negative energy to do that.

There is no ethical violation by the coaches here...they ran a camp to make money (does anyone doubt this about any college camp that allows 10-year olds?)..."carol" and son didn't like it that they didn't get the attention they sought and so they turned that into eliminating a college that they were obviously interested in at a young age. To me, they gained nothing and maybe lost a lot...to make a point only in their own minds.

This situation will repeat itself over and over and over...and over again as this player climbs the baseball ladder. My older son was drafted in the 13th round after being told 2 days earlier he'd be drafted in the first 6 rounds. Should he not have signed?...just to show them!

For 2 1/2 years in college he was told he wasn't a starter and spend countless innings on the bench until he finally broke through, returned for his senior at the coaches' request rather than sign, had an all Pac-10 season and helped lead his team to the College World Series. Should he have made his point with the coaches for the '2 1/2 year snub' by not coming back his senior year?

Which "values" do you think will take a young man farther in life? Hanging on to perceived 10-year old snubs or getting over it, turning it into self-motivation and moving on with your life?

I'll stick with my "values." I like 'em a lot better than multi-year grudges from pre-adolescence.

No doubt that holding grudges in this case might be counterproductive.

However I think "outfielder" made a great point when he posted this...

quote:

Certainly agree with everyone's comments. But, just think what an impact that Coach, or one of the coaches, could have had by just taking a few minutes of time to spend with some little boys. Five minutes could have made an incredible difference and lasting impression...particularly for your son.

If all of this is true, and I'm pretty sure it is, then the coach didn't take advantage of the opportunity to leave a positive impression.

That said, I'm sure I have failed to leave a positive impression many times when I could have.

justbaseball

Glad to see your son's resume, you must be very proud. I do not understand why you think that these people are "holding a grudge". They obviously do not respect the man for the way he ran his camp. They are entitled to their opinion and they have a choice. I always thought that you can learn much about people by the way they treat children and the elderly. I don't think they "gained nothing". They are choosing not to interact with someone they do not respect. The boy obviously became a good player and has opportunities. He has moved on. He/they are exercising a choice - just like Griffey did in my original example, just like your son did by going back for his senior year. Why such animosity?

quote:

Originally posted by HVbaseballDAD:
I do not understand why you think that these people are "holding a grudge". They obviously do not respect the man for the way he ran his camp. They...

It's not "these people", "they" or "them". It is a 17 year old holding a 7 year grudge for what ever reason.

Or maybe it is "They, them, and these people". Hmmmm.

Re-read the OP.

Is a kid deciding he doesn't want to give the time of day to someone who didn't give him the time of day really holding a grudge? You guys act like the kid is letting this coach consume his every thought. I only read it as I'm not interested in that school/coach.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
No doubt that holding grudges in this case might be counterproductive.

However I think "outfielder" made a great point when he posted this...

quote:

Certainly agree with everyone's comments. But, just think what an impact that Coach, or one of the coaches, could have had by just taking a few minutes of time to spend with some little boys. Five minutes could have made an incredible difference and lasting impression...particularly for your son.

If all of this is true, and I'm pretty sure it is, then the coach didn't take advantage of the opportunity to leave a positive impression.

That said, I'm sure I have failed to leave a positive impression many times when I could have.

I agree with that as well.

quote:

Originally posted by HVbaseballDAD:
Why such animosity?

No animosity at all. (No grudges either! ). This is a message board where we come for advice. I am (perhaps ineffectively?) trying to make the point that when our kids are younger, we want to protect the he!! out of them. When they don't make all stars, we get PO'd at the league/coach. When they don't start on the elite travel or HS team, we get PO'd at the coach or others. When we don't get what we hoped for out of a baseball camp at 10/12/14/16-years old, it upsets us.

But this trend continues throughout the baseball ladder (and in the business world too). "carol" and son have made their decision...but who did they 'show' and who did they hurt? The coach probably doesn't even know about it so there's no 'satisfaction' gained is there? Maybe Junior eliminated the very best situation for himself without even knowing it?

Perhaps when these "slights" continue (and they will in one form or another)...or perhaps when another parent who doesn't quite know what to make of their own 10-year olds college camp experience read this...they will realize that it almost certainly was not a purposeful "slight"...and while their son may be "special," he is one of the 100's who are equally or more special and...maybe(?) trying to make a point with everyone who "slights" you along the way will only cost you....opportunities, somewhere down the road.

I wish them luck, I truly do. But I also hope that a parent or two reading this grasps that they will face all kinds of these types of situations if their sons are going to play in HS, college and beyond. I do not see how they can get even with every one of them and still come out ahead in this game...or even in life.

Something else to consider... School's Coaches, Asst. Coaches, Recruiting Scouts often change hands. And in 7 years, highly likely. And so, the "Staff" member at a camp, that may of made one feel slighted, may not even be around anymore.
As for someone manning a table, especially that it was mentioned to be a female...I doubt it was even someone on the schools coaching staff, but rather a student filling in to pass out brochures, and answer questions to potential students. Maybe even getting credit or recognition for students that applied to the school in question, when asked on an app or questionaire of how they heard about a school.
There usually variables involved, that nobody is even aware of.
I try to teach that to my kids, especially when dealing with difficult situation / people. Take the high road. Treat others the way you'd want to be treated, and don't wait for it to be the other way around first. I know that I have heard my own self be short or impatient, usually with some poor guy just trying to do his job, over the phone. Later thought about it & regretted it. But, vowed to make a conscious effort to not repeat it. Life is too short to hold grudges.

I'm reminded of the saying " Don't cut off your nose to spite your face."

This thread reminds me of fans that get up set when a player didn't take the time to sign or respond to greetings,questions or pictures and decide that the player is a jerk..

Interesting..... I would side with my son in most situations in life with the exception of how the coach was "treating" him ..... unless it was physical abuse (I did intervene one time over arm abuse in high school). The coach/player relationship is a unique one and part of becoming a complete player is having the ability to adjust to different coaches. There were a lot of things I didn't agree with or like during my son's playing years but I never blamed the coach. I always told my son he had the ability to modify the situation with his play, his work ethic or his ability to accept the current coach/player relationship. When it came to my son selecting a college he had to select the school that was best for him. As parents of athletes we should help our sons "adjust" to what isn't always a friendly environment instead of defending them over a coach. Baseball does mirror life in many ways and understanding the coach/player relationship will surely help your son be a better player... or coach .... or boss .... or person.
Fungo

I'm not sure about the rest of your player's situations but my college choice was HIGHLY influenced by the coach I was going to be playing for. I knew after every school I visited whether or not I would consider going to that school. *Sometimes I wish I wouldn't have had to go on the campus visit before the coaches meeting... Regardless, I bet this player wasn't turning down his only offer. I'm sure he had offers and suitors of coaches he had good impressions of and he could see himself playing for.

We would never have let something like this get in the way of going to a "dream" school but there were certainly coaches who made better impressions and ones who made worse impressions at camps.

The worst, and they weren't all that bad, experiences came in dealing with volunteer assistant coaches at camps. Sometimes those guys just don't have the experience or knowledge to treat everyone "fairly". It happens and sometimes it happens even when there's a top notch head coach running things.

quote:

I'm not sure about the rest of your player's situations but my college choice was HIGHLY influenced by the coach I was going to be playing for.

That's no different than all the professional jobs you'll have in your life. Your views of the company you work for are more highly influenced by the manager you work for than by almost anything the company does. Great matches are working for a company (school) you like and a manager (coach) you like. But you always know that manager (coach) may not be there forever. In the end, they are both important...but it's hard to work for a manager (coach) you don't like or get along with regardless of how much you like the company (school).

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:
Interesting..... I would side with my son in most situations in life with the exception of how the coach was "treating" him ..... unless it was physical abuse (I did intervene one time over arm abuse in high school). The coach/player relationship is a unique one and part of becoming a complete player is having the ability to adjust to different coaches. There were a lot of things I didn't agree with or like during my son's playing years but I never blamed the coach. I always told my son he had the ability to modify the situation with his play, his work ethic or his ability to accept the current coach/player relationship. When it came to my son selecting a college he had to select the school that was best for him. As parents of athletes we should help our sons "adjust" to what isn't always a friendly environment instead of defending them over a coach. Baseball does mirror life in many ways and understanding the coach/player relationship will surely help your son be a better player... or coach .... or boss .... or person.
Fungo

Fungo: totally agree. Have watched over the years, as parents criticise a Coach, or come too quickly to the aide of defense of their child. Often without understanding the Coach's perspective & what they might be trying to accomplish or teach. Point in case: Last tournament games of travel ball, actually playing a team up. After the his 1st at bat, during the 1st game / day 1, our son was benched, after not running his hardest to 1B, even though he made it safely. Never played the rest of the day, nor the following day, his final game of the Season. Our son responded much better than his folks (internally) he never questioned the Coach's decision, even though nothing at all was ever said. He didn't sulk. He stayed focused on the games, cheered his teammates on & threw balls to players, inbetween innings. Finally, when leaving for home. The Coach spoke to him in the parking lot. Not about the games or his decisions, but regarding the fact that he knew our son was to attend his 1st showcase, the next day. The Coach met with our son that next day, not to go over mechanics, etc., but to privately explain to our son, the concept of "You never know who's watching" and always HUSTLE. For while a player in College, the Coach himself was deemed not to have ran his hardest to 1B, and was benched for several weeks. He cared enough about his player, our son, to give him a lesson that would make an impact on him...now. It did!

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:

Why not teach our son's to act like adults as they reach adult years, rather than supporting them acting like a child based on a perceived "snub" when they were a child?

The above comment makes a lot of sense to me. I don't care if my player was number one in the draft, never have we ever taught him to be less than grateful for those that have pursued him for his talents, even AFTER the fact. There was a coach that snubbed son during recruiting, when they finally called, he took the call (like a responsible young adult) and told the coach no thank you, that was the proper thing to do.


And for those of you that feel that they (the kids) may have been slighted, keep in mind that this is a 10 year olds perception of the situation.