Putting aside all the non-baseball considerations and just focusing on the baseball - would appreciate help with the pros and cons of the baseball experience at an Ivy from folks who have been through it. Thanks.
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DST: To answer your inquiry, it's really hard to not focus somewhat on the "non-baseball considerations" of playing in the Ivy League. The job network, the brand name of the league/degree are second to none. Son had chance to play for "Big State U" (top 25 program), but opted for Ivy League. His thought was that he worked so hard to achieve what he did in high school (academically), that he didn't want to sell himself short in selecting where to attend college. The decision is definitely a "40 year" not 4 year choice.
Baseball-wise:
Pros:
1) Small rosters allow for great opportunities for freshman to play and contribute early on.
2) Possibility for a student-athlete to earn a STEM degree while playing baseball (Son graduated with a degree in chemical engineering). In IVY league, Monday is often an off-day/players can workout. Monday marked a day son took a number of his labs.
3) Great rivalries where teams have been played against each other for over 100 years +
4) Awesome spring trips against ranked opponents. Players excited to play in warm weather and in front of big crowds. Upset wins are great!
5) Playing in IVY League still allows the chance to make NCAA tourney. Ivy league has an automatic bid.
6) Playing IVY league baseball doesn't diminish chance of being drafted MLB. The league has players drafted most years.
Cons:
1) Weather in Northeast/New England can be cool for early games.
2) Some early non-league area games may get cancelled if snow still on field!
3) Disappointed how pandemic was handled (Nearly 2 seasons cancelled). Son graduated before so wasn't affected (fortunately).
4) Fairly small crowds in league, often friends, family of players, and a couple of "locals"
These are thought off top of my head.
What Ripken said....
Ripken has seen it all. Follow his yellow brick road.... If Ivy doesn't work typically the likes of Georgetown, Bucknell, Holy Cross, Nescacs, JHopkins, Swat...will be the other coaches at all the Ivy Camps. This provides great plan B options.
Also: if your son is a position player, get him to the Ivy weekend camps his incoming Jr summer/fall. They need to see reps with all coaching eyes on him. If your son is a Pitcher being seen at Showball/HFirst or big tournaments will suffice. Further: having your son ask which tourney's or showcases they'll be at is a key question. As well as relaying his schedule to them if they indicate some level of interest. I recall all the Ivy coaches being at the PG WWBA around 4th July timeframe...it's been a while...but they were all there
@Gov posted:Ripken has seen it all. Follow his yellow brick road.... If Ivy doesn't work typically the likes of Georgetown, Bucknell, Holy Cross, Nescacs, JHopkins, Swat...will be the other coaches at all the Ivy Camps. This provides great plan B options.
Also: if your son is a position player, get him to the Ivy weekend camps his incoming Jr summer/fall. They need to see reps with all coaching eyes on him. If your son is a Pitcher being seen at Showball/HFirst or big tournaments will suffice. Further: having your son ask which tourney's or showcases they'll be at is a key question. As well as relaying his schedule to them if they indicate some level of interest. I recall all the Ivy coaches being at the PG WWBA around 4th July timeframe...it's been a while...but they were all there
Almost all of them were in Arizona for the 17U Fall Classic in late Sept.
Thanks, particularly Ripken Fan. Really appreciate it.
To add to Ripkenfan's post, Ivy position player recruiting for 2024 is happening right now. Several have already committed. By the time the summer before senior year rolls around most Ivies will have a full class or just looking for another arm or two.
Ripken provided a pretty good synopsis.
I'll add:
Cons
• An Ivy player will not play beyond the first playoff round
• Ivy players get no special treatment (no priority class registration, no special tutors, no special dorms, food)
• limited amount of SWAG (extra gloves, cleats)
• fewer number of coaches
• because of the single slot going to an Ivy for the playoffs, outside pressures on a coach are less and that pressure (e.g., to be ranked) doesn't filter down to players (I would say the atmosphere is much more relaxed than at a true contender for a national title)
• players with pro-aspirations will need to find more internal motivation as most of their teammates aspire (after a few years) for Investment banking or consulting careers and aren't singularly focused on a baseball career.
Pros
• absolutely no penalty applied by proball for playing in the Ivy
• if a player wants (and most do for at least a few years), all summer leagues are within reach (my son played in Northwoods and the Cape [his rising senior year, he interned at MLB in New York doing economic analysis])
• a strong network of player alumni (e.g., see who is the GM of Texas) which come in handy from time to time
• the league rules about recruiting means that no matter how difficult the prior year, the player will start with a clean slate the next year (i.e., no portal, no roster size issues pushing him off the roster)
• a player has longer to develop (I have stories).
But if you're looking for anyone to tell you the stands rock like at Clemson, LSU or the like, that's not going to happen.
If you are one of the 56ish players who get an offer each year, you have earned a winning lottery ticket. A winning lottery ticket should be cashed.
There are no real downsides to playing for an Ivy.
@DroppedStrikeThree posted:Putting aside all the non-baseball considerations and just focusing on the baseball - would appreciate help with the pros and cons of the baseball experience at an Ivy from folks who have been through it. Thanks.
As others have subtlety noted, the point is you can't separate the Ivy education from the Ivy athletics. They go together like no other D1 experience in my opinion. It is what makes the Ivy experience different, and it is about balance...the ying and the yang if you will. The conference makes specific allowances in their charter for limiting travel, travel time, number of games, practice times, etc... There are reasons for all of it.
Great posts by others and I'm in total agreement with Ripken, Goosegg, and others about their Ivy pros and cons lists. Additionally, I'd like to call attention to your son's relationship with his (potential) Ivy position coach. That relationship is so important because of the academic demands and the need to get the baseball work done. This was my son's experience, and I'm not going out on a limb here to say probably others as well. His position coach bent over backwards to help my son get his baseball work done while my son juggled his academic schedule which always included engineering labs and working part time at an on campus particle accelerator. His position coach was a major part of his success on the field and in the classroom. Again, you can't separate the two.
As always, JMO.
My son's HC (and the rest of the coaches) were totally in harmony in that student-athlete balance.
Specific example: practice during mid-terms IN-SEASON was "voluntary." In this context, "voluntary" meant "no team or scheduled practice." Players would hop down to the field/indoor facility to get in their reps, pens, BP at all hours. Several of the pitchers were "chronic throwers" - multiple full pens weekly. It was not unusual for the HC to be catching pens past midnight during mid-terms. (Did the team look sharp in the weeks following mid-terms? Heck no; fly balls were adventures, bunting was awful, etc.! But, for the pitchers [my primary interest], all got quality time with the HC during those solo sessions. The chronic throwers all went pro - two made it all the way!)
This is great. Thanks all.
I'll add another positive. No ridiculously long TRAVEL for midweek games. Most Ivies have nearby neighborhood rivals or fellow D1s that are a bus ride away. That was not the case for a bigger (and ranked) program son was offered and somewhat considered. Their conference was really spread out geographically requiring several plane trips (and more missed classes).
I'll add another few items - but can only speak to Princeton (others chime in about other schools):
Until league play begins, every game, every year, is an audition/chance to earn more playing time. This is particularly true about the spring trip, where every player got multiple chances. Players who performed moved up the depth chart, others moved down. Every year the slate is wiped clean.
Because no athletic scholarships are available, EVERY player is essentially a recruited walk-on. The coach has no more sunk/invested in one player or another so PT decisions are truly based on what the coach sees in the present - not what he saw in the past and hopes to recapture.
Because no athletic or academic scholarships are available, a kid can leave the team ANYTIME AND remain in school. The players remain on the team because - for whatever reason - each wants to be on the team (regardless of playing time). The lack of attrition - much less transferring out - is a credit to the program (a player could be admitted, then simply decide not to play) and a coach who needs to be very, very sure of the player's desire to be on the team - regardless of that player's future college baseball success.
I personally think the pure baseball pressures are less on each player when compared to a P5 program; this allows a player to more fully experience a true college experience - but thru the lense of a D1 athlete. Academics, partying, drinking, girl friends, dining clubs (a version of social clubs), summer internships and more, can all be experienced to their fullest.
Players are assigned a first year roommate randomly from all incoming freshman (like in prison, as my son once put it). After that, players choose roommates; my son never roomed with another athlete.
(And, for the players not going to proball, the students will have their post-graduation jobs by the end of first semester senior year [apart from those going to grad school]. They spend the rest of their senior year writing a full year, bound, original research paper under the supervision of a full professor.)
Despite the best efforts to take fluff courses, the players do some serious learning. (I'm NOT saying all the profs are good instructors; I'm saying that the system is structured so that every student learns how to learn [not necessarily a pretty looking process initially]. So, my son took Astronomy (aka Rocks for Jocks) and coin collecting; surprise (!) they were legit courses. He did better in Econometrics (a math heavy course), than Astronomy.)
Ivy League may soon be able to award scholarships. (Not sure they want to change tradition. Here's 2 links:
I read those articles - without any legal knowledge in that area - as saying the LEAGUE cannot agree amongst themselves to not offer atheltic scholarships. It's clear that no single school can be forced to fund athletic scholarships (because there are lots which don't fund baseball or only a few).
What's the actual effect on an Ivy if a few teams had athletic scholarships? FA cannot be combined with athletic scholarships; every family at 200k gets a free ride. If the AS offered is 25% that family would need be in the 300k+ bracket to benefit (and if multiple kids are in college, even higher).
So, first these scholarships would ONLY go to the very wealthy. Second, no kid would take a sum less than FA gives. (The thought that FA is awarded every year based upon updated financials is true; news flash: that's what athletic scholarships are.)
I don't understand where it gets a player? Only the really well off would get more than FA already gives.
A decision (as a result of a lawsuit or voluntary) to offer AS' gets a player where? I could even imagine players winding up in a worse position.
@Ripken Fan posted:Ivy League may soon be able to award scholarships. (Not sure they want to change tradition. Here's 2 links:
Interesting theories but I'm not buying it. Not by a long shot. One big reason...money. These are private schools that run a franchise business in education and dabble in athletics because it can enrich the educational experience of their students and their bottom lines. Their collective endowments are staggering.
These schools have enormous participation in men's and women's athletics compared to other schools at any NCAA division level....sponsoring 34 sports average per school, the highest number of any NCAA conference, with more than 8,000 student-athletes competing annually (straight off their website). Many athletic teams are funded jointly by the schools and privately. Participation is off the charts.
Currently, the NCAA has been rendered spineless and toothless which has left each conference to make its own business decisions going forward. If the going gets tough they'll just jettison themselves from the NCAA, and play by their own rules or create some new model that fits their purposes. I'm no legal scholar (or scholar of any type!), but the minute you take federal govt money you open yourself up to issues. They have enough pennies saved up over the years (gaining interest as we write & read) that they don't have to involve themselves in federal funding.
Athletics is a secondary consideration (at best) among these schools and I just don't see that changing anytime soon.
As always, JMO.
Very interesting discussion. Complex but extremely insightful into how the Ivies and HA colleges operate.
From a different source -
"The Supreme Court has barred the NCAA from imposing limits on financial education benefits for athletes...it took the NCAA only about two weeks after that decision to reverse a long-standing policy against college athletes receiving money outside of their athletic scholarships".
"...the Ivy League schools have been able since 1994 ... to agree to decline to offer merit awards of any type—for academic excellence, musical talent, debate skills, athletic performance, or any other ability—and give scholarships based solely on the student’s financial situation. In other words, to do precisely what the Supreme Court has just told the NCAA it now cannot do for athletes."
*****
The legal carveout that allowed the Ivies and other HA colleges to offer only need-based aid expired on 9/30/2022 after 28 years. It is unlikely to be renewed.
Which means the Ivies are now open to legal liability related to collusion over NOT offering athletic scholarships.
In other words, @Goosegg the Ivies and other HA colleges no longer have the legal cover to say FA can't be combined with athletic or merit scholarships.
@fenwaysouth posted:Interesting theories but I'm not buying it. Not by a long shot. One big reason...money. These are private schools that run a franchise business in education and dabble in athletics because it can enrich the educational experience of their students and their bottom lines. Their collective endowments are staggering.
These schools have enormous participation in men's and women's athletics compared to other schools at any NCAA division level....sponsoring 34 sports average per school, the highest number of any NCAA conference, with more than 8,000 student-athletes competing annually (straight off their website). Many athletic teams are funded jointly by the schools and privately. Participation is off the charts.
Currently, the NCAA has been rendered spineless and toothless which has left each conference to make its own business decisions going forward. If the going gets tough they'll just jettison themselves from the NCAA, and play by their own rules or create some new model that fits their purposes. I'm no legal scholar (or scholar of any type!), but the minute you take federal govt money you open yourself up to issues. They have enough pennies saved up over the years (gaining interest as we write & read) that they don't have to involve themselves in federal funding.
Athletics is a secondary consideration (at best) among these schools and I just don't see that changing anytime soon.
As always, JMO.
From someone who spends way too much timing researching this stuff -
This time is different.
The SCOTUS ruling that lead to NIL has opened up Pandora's box.
- Agree that the NCAA is on its way to becoming a paper tiger.
- It does seem likely that each conference will be left to set their own rules for each sport, including how (headcount/equivalency) and how much much to fund each sport, the number of allowable coaches, etc. I've even heard that some conferences may head towards unlimited scholarships, specifically for baseball.
- But unfortunately for the Ivies, the Section 568 carveout was based on the premise that each college has a finite pot of money for financial aid; with $7Bn-$35Bn in endowments, this is clearly not true. So the huge balance sheets accumulated by many HA universities over decades now work against them - this is one key reason why Section 568 won't be renewed.
- Impossible for the Ivies not to take Federal money. There's not only Pell grants and the like, but there's also a load of federally-funded research that goes on at these schools.
An easier path would be for the Ivies to all become D3s (although that's no guarantee either, as there is building legal pressure on D3s as well), or just wait until they get sued and try to come up with another reason to restrict aid.
Or maybe - Just. Offer. Merit. And. Athletic. Scholarships. To. Deserving. Students.
If I were advising, I'd take that - it's the cheapest alternative since most of the kids playing are getting full rides anyway. As for merit aid, good luck distinguishing one student more deserving then another.
It's simply easier to give everyone free tuition - it's now a rounding error in their endowments. I think that's where each Ivy will go - free tuition to all admitted students. Then 100k, 200k, 300k, applications for 1800 slots.
Actually a good thing, I think, for education as it may put pressure on others with endowments to do something about tuition as they see their apps spiking and can get even more and crazier more selective.