Ivy League Short Season

Goosegg posted:

I think I know who you are talking about. The phrase "past performance does not guarantee future returns" comes to mind. That attitude has killed that program for the past four years - that program hasn't been Ivy League competitive for years.

If a coach can't figure out which points to raise with a family in recruiting to sway a kid from the ACC to, let's say, Harvard, he should find another profession.

It's hard to judge. The overall record is of success. The past three or four years isn't. But how much of recent failure is passing on ACC prospects? How much of past success was not wasting time on ACC prospects. The bottom line is the past few years he's not getting the recruits he needs to win. Whether or not he lost out on potential ACC players we don't know.

I don't know how you can assert he isn't getting the recruits he needs? How do you know it's not the lack of development once the players get there? How do you know it's not the game strategies employed which cause that team's record to be so bad the last few years?

The overwhelming number of his recruits were indeed wooed by big time programs; those kids chose to dodge the early commit pressure and wait to see what may develop.

Remember, each of these schools generally bring in only 6-8 recruits a year; and, like most D1 programs, most articulate a desire to play proball (and most realize pretty quickly that proball is just that - a dream).  Baseball players who matriculate to an Ivy don't transfer, they graduate in four years, with great FA available to many, with either summer ball or internships at their fingertips, and graduate school level salaries waiting for Ivy undergraduate degrees.

Yes, a family can lose the forest for the trees during the recruiting process and get blinded by baseball opportunities. My point here is a kid gives up no baseball opportunities (including a low success probability to reach MLB) to attend an Ivy (his development may be stunted by poor coaching; but that is not restricted to the Ivies); if the kid has pro potential and develops that potential, there is no Ivy downside.

I don't believe a previously successful coach forgets how to develop players and coach unless he gets old and falls behind the times. So it's probably the recruits. 

I agree if a kid is a prospect it doesn't matter he's at an Ivy. He will have exposure in non conference games against major D1s. He will have an opportunity to play in talent appropriate collegiate summer leagues. If a pitcher is consistantly 90+ with a quality second pitch it can be against grandmothers.

i also know there are typically players at this school who could have played in the ACC. But if this coach finds them hedging rather than committing to him he walks.

This is the reputation. My son played high school and travel ball within an hour of the school. He knows kids who play(ed) there. He knows others who were recruited and passed. I also heard it from a player's parent who is a career baseball man.

#1 Assistant Coach posted:

Wondering if anyone out there can comment on the pros and cons of the shorter baseball season of the Ivy League.  I pulled up several Ivy schedules and noticed their seasons span all of 2-months.  Yale's this year is March 4 to April 30.  Whereas your average ACC season begins Feb. 19 to May 21 or so. 

Obviously weather, funding, and an emphasis on academics, are what's behind the shorter season but just wondering if high academic recruits ever pass on Ivies due to a perception that they won't play enough ball and may not develop into the player they may become at a school with a longer season?  Even if only one extra month per year?  Over the course of a 4-year career that's 12-months (total) of regular season baseball at an ACC vs only 8-months (total) of regular season play at an Ivy. 

The Ivy degree is a nice tradeoff but even so, is the 1/3 shorter season a detractor for recruits?  If anyone has any experience or thoughts, I'd be curious to hear.

This is a great topic. I was just talking to my young son who has a lot of potential in baseball and also is scoring off the chart on state tests  and getting perfect grades (teachers are saying he's gifted) about setting goals.  

Let's say he trends in the right direct on both.  Let's say he's a kid who could independently qualify for an Ivy league school without a lot of scholarship money being thrown his way, but also happened to be someone who was being recruited by other D-1s that are top academic schools in their own right...Texas, NC, Vandy, Cal, Emory, Duke etc.   What kind of financial package is he going to get?    

I have relative who signed with a school mentioned below that is just as good or better than an Ivy on the West Coast,  but I'm not sure what kind of assistance he got (would love to ask but that wouldn't be right).  I got the sense that the combination of baseball and grades got him in the door, and they are paying for most of his education out of pocket.  I've never seen them use the word scholarship just "signed with".   I hope to have these problems in a few years but want to plan for it financially.   Thanks

Coaches get old; coaches burn out; coaches do lose focus. Old administrations get complacent and are replaced by new blood.

Anyone watching this program play quickly realizes that something is different when comparing the game strategies with other college teams. (I am not saying that this coach isn't a great person and spectacular mentor of his players; indeed, he is a man I would want my son to learn from. I am only speaking to baseball here.)

As for hedging and walking when faced with a recruit trying to decide, I could see that scenario arise -but mostly in the truncated period within which the Ivy's' get their commitments. Time is too short to allow an offer to hang too long.

And again, if a coach can figure out a way to sell snow to Eskimos (like most of the RC's we ran into during the process), he could certainly figure out a way to highlight a few advantages of the Ivy League.

GoBlue. Just because a school is a top academic school, that doesn't mean that the athletes are taking majors that are representative of the general student population.

Most coaches play fast and lose with those details. So, in the recruiting process, ask for those details. Ask whether the info you're getting is only for juniors and seniors (freshman and sophomore majors are just wishes and hopes, so don't use those years).  Ask how many kids graduated in four years (or for those who signed after being drafted junior year, how many had three full years of credits).  Being an athlete at the D1 level is hard; keeping on track to graduate in four years is harder; keeping on track to graduate in a hard major even harder (I should also note that the Ivys have made it very very difficult to use AP credits). Ask how many kids not only graduated in four years, but which grad schools they attended, which jobs they got, which fields, etc.?

The hardest part of developing this info, is many many coaches (who do this for their living, while you go through it once) know how to appear to directly answer your question without really answering your question. (E.g., if you ask, "how many players graduate?" The answer will not be the four year graduation rate - it will be the overall graduation rate. Or, the answer will speak to the APR.)  The antidote is to do as much research as possible before embarking on the process and never be satisfied with an answer you don't understand.

EDIT: there are no scholarships in the Ivy League. All aid is financial aid and available to every student on an equal basis.

RJM posted:

I'd suggest that if a coach quits on a kid because he thinks he's ACC (or similar) talent, then he's likely coaching a team that is traditionally not competitive in Ivy play.

He's a former MLBer. He played in the ACC. He's won 1/3 of the Ivy titles during his tenure. 

I guess we define program competitiveness differently.  He's won the Ivy once since 2006.  In my view, where he played or the fact that I'm sure he's a wonderful guy at one of the most prestigious universities on the planet doesn't change that.

For the record, I have no issue with this coach or this university.  That said, I stand by my original comment in the full context I wrote it, which is to say I had no idea who the coach or the school was at the time, but was rather commenting on what I viewed as a flawed approach to recruiting in the Ivy League.

I don't have any feelings either way on the coach, his track record or his recruiting tactics. I'm only passing information I received both first and second hand. 

When my son was in high school I attended college games from top D3s to D1s I felt he might project. I talked with a career baseball man while watching this team play at Harvard. His son played at the school.