But that NESCAC statement kicking the can down the road was 3 weeks ago. Seems like they have to say something definitive soon. (Although by not saying anything, it’s looking like they have effectively decided.)
@Chico Escuela posted:But that NESCAC statement kicking the can down the road was 3 weeks ago. Seems like they have to say something definitive soon. (Although by not saying anything, it’s looking like they have effectively decided.)
that's how my son (and I) are viewing it.
This is a bold public statement from an employee, I applaud him.
@old_school posted:This is a bold public statement from an employee, I applaud him.
Now we can watch for his firing or unexpected resignation. I’m guessing the Brown president won’t care for the public statement and not being on board with the consensus. What surprises me is I expected to see a more senior baseball coach being this bold. The coach is in his thirties.
@RJM posted:Now we can watch for his firing or unexpected resignation. I’m guessing the Brown president won’t care for the public statement and not being on board with the consensus. What surprises me is I expected to see a more senior baseball coach being this bold. The coach is in his thirties.
It's a bold statement, and IMO opinion an admirable one. He's standing up for his players and his program. And my perspective is that of a parent who has been fairly conservative throughout the year, particularly last spring when this was all new and the science was far hazier. Now, it's very clear. Baseball is an outdoor sport, one which can be practiced and played safely. This will only continue to be more true as vaccination distribution increases over the Spring. If, for whatever reason, variants cause a reversal of this situation, programs and schools can adjust accordingly. Their Coach had the stones to say this publicly, and if Brown does take punitive action against him I'm sure he will get snapped up elsewhere.
I applaud Brown’s coach for speaking up. The coaches have been muzzled for way too long.
I realize now that the season was cancelled last summer as every school announced their plans for the school year, none of which were allowing all students on campus. To announce this prematurely was an indication the season was not going to happen. Not a single Ivy team would have all their players on-campus. I knew then it was over but was strung along because coaches told players if Ivy announced a season the schools would do everything within their power to get kids on campus. But that is simply ridiculous as it would not be an easy thing to do once the wheels had been set in motion.
UPenn already has a player in the transfer portal and I cannot blame him for being there as he was listed as a top 10 round pick this year. No season makes it tough to maintain your draft stock.
As hard as last season’s cancellation was, it was NOTHING compared to this season’s Ivy cancellation.
its one thing to miss out on a season like everyone else, it is an entirely different thing to watch your peers play while you cannot.
Yep, the only way it could have worked would be if everyone did the Cornell thing and tested students both on and off campus. I'm sure that is true at most D1 schools, many of which have mostly off-campus housing. That isn't the case for most Ivies.
Did the coaches not tell the players this back in November? I think it's one thing to speak out publicly (whether that was wise or not), but surely the coaches had figured this out long ago. What were they telling their players? We were told that as long as there was a chance that some students could return to campus, there was a chance that sports could happen, but both coach and school were pretty honest that it was unlikely, and many players took the semester (or year) off from school.
I am sure ALL the Ivies test both on-campus and off-campus students. Definitely true for the ones I am aware of. For example, at Dartmouth, off campus kids get tested even though they currently are not allowed on campus, which of course excludes them from athletic participation.
Because of policies like this, most students, including athletes, opted to stay away if they were not approved to be on-campus for the term.
I believe coaches were optimistic schools would do everything within their power to get students on campus if Ivy announced that athletics would be played.
I believe most coaches are guilty of assuming that the schools would act like grownups and make mature decisions like every other conference in the entire country...but nope that didn’t happen.
The new Ivy saying is, “You may be beating us now. But we’ll be watching you play later.”
The irony is the reputation for developing leaders of all fields and yet the actual leaders have collectively failed to lead. Unless you call sitting at home and learning via zoom leading.
@RJM posted:Now we can watch for his firing or unexpected resignation. I’m guessing the Brown president won’t care for the public statement and not being on board with the consensus. What surprises me is I expected to see a more senior baseball coach being this bold. The coach is in his thirties.
that would be a hell of a story considering the some of the extreme teachings by So many professors.
I saw Cressey is marketing to guys whose seasons were cancelled. Great place to go to get better if your team/school isn’t playing.
An Ivy pitcher who has was throwing weekly bullpens to my son left for the Cressey program almost 2 weeks ago. The way he was throwing pre-Cressey was impressive...excited to hear how he looks post. LHP sitting 91-92 who touched 95 in his last couple of pens. Might get drafted before throwing an inning for his Ivy!!!
On the plus side... I was watching some nice performances by Ivy league grads this weekend. One got a win and a hold over #1 Florida. Another pitched 4 solid innings for Rice. Another homered for Duke. And another Ivy grad pitched 4 scoreless innings for BC.
There were a handful of Ivy guys hitting and throwing pens when we were there a couple weeks ago. I thought it was odd because most of the college guys had gone back to school by then
I think everybody can agree the Ivy Presidents have handled the Covid-19 communication, leadership, etc poorly for Ivy athletics. I was giving them a slight break in their 2020 Covid policy, but there are no excuses for lack of communication in 2021.
I've read everybody's post in this thread and I think the real point has been missed. The bottom line is the Ivy Presidents really don't rank athletics high on their big-picture priority list. There I said it, and this isn't the first time I've kicked the hornets nest. They view and treat students and student/athletes as the same.
Athletics play a very minor role on an Ivy campus. Most programs are self funded. Athletics do not bring in revenue. Tens of thousands of people aren't flocking to an Ivy athletic event...it is nothing like an Ohio State/Michigan football game or an ACC baseball game. Almost all of the Ivy recruited student athletes that attend one of these schools is focused on their studies, and they have a competitive passion for a sport that will end when they graduate. My son and I knew this when he committed...there was going to be no hoopla with regards to Ivy athletics. If my son wanted hoopla, he would have selected a different D1 school. Frankly I'm a lot surprised that some folks are expecting an "Ivy leopard to change its spots". Covid has changed lives across the globe. It sucks and we've all had to adapt to a new way of life. My heart goes out to those that have worked hard to get that Ivy baseball opportunity and they are still waiting to play.
I'm not defending the Ivy Presidents actions or inactions but I'm pointing out what is real. In my world, actions speak louder than words and the actions of the Ivy Presidents tell me everything I need to know about how they view Ivy athletics relative to the rest of the student body...they are one and the same and treated as one and the same. Their minds are about making money, managing a pile of money, corporate partnerships, research and bringing in the best professors and students they can get.
Again, just my two cents.....
Fenway dropping the truth bomb.
The Ivy has finally officially confirmed what everyone has always known.
@fenwaysouth posted:.... In my world, actions speak louder than words and the actions of the Ivy Presidents tell me everything I need to know about how they view Ivy athletics relative to the rest of the student body...they are one and the same and treated as one and the same. ....
Fenway, I definitely agree that the timing and (lack of) communication about spring 2021 athletics has been abysmal, and not just at the Ivies (looking at you NESCAC and Centennial...). But I'm confused by parts of your post: Do you think the Ivies ought to treat athletes differently than other students? Or put another way, should they treat other student activities differently than sports?
I think it's understandable (but unfortunate) that at schools that make millions of dollars on basketball and football, sports are a bigger priority than just about anything else. And because of Title IX and some other issues, non-revenue sports are going to get a leg up at those schools, too. But IMO colleges aren't (or shouldn't be) in the business of big-dollar athletics promotion. If the orchestra, debate team, etc. aren't being allowed to travel to off-campus venues (and I have no idea whether they are), then I wouldn't expect Ivy or D3 athletic teams to do so. Granted, baseball is outdoors; so maybe the comparison ought to be to the marching band or ultimate frisbee club. My point is that comparable activities being treated comparably doesn't seem to me like grounds to complain--and I say that as someone whose kids all chose athletics as essentially their only activities outside of classes.
I understand criticizing university leaders for not allowing their students to engage in activities that other schools in their regions deem safe. But I don't get complaining that athletics aren't given more favorable treatment than other activities (if that is what are arguing).
I'll just toss this out there, too: The Ivies are among a small handful of schools that don't need sports to raise their profiles, and don't have to worry about alienating applicants by closing their campuses. (Ivy applications set records in 2021. So did a lot of other highly selective schools that closed their campuses in 2020.) These schools also have huge endowments, notwithstanding their attempts to plead poverty lately. Seems to me that if anyone is making decisions for the right reasons, it should be the schools that don't have to worry about negative fallout from cancelling parts of the normal college experience. Every school presumably faces essentially the same pressures of potential liability, bad PR, etc. But some schools also need to stay open to keep applicants and tuition dollars coming in. The Ivies and a few other institutions are much freer from those latter pressures than other schools. Maybe they made the wrong decision anyhow, but seems to me their motivations ought to be less suspect than other institutions. The president of XYZ University gets advice from his medical school, his lawyers, his alumni association and his admissions department--then also factors in the sports revenues and applicants s/he stands to lose--and makes a decision about whether to participate in athletics. The president of an Ivy gets similar advice, but without sports dollars or applicant stats in the calculation. Again, the Ivy may come to the wrong conclusion, but purely on the basis of motivations, I don't see a reason to expect them to do worse than other schools.
Just sayin'... I honestly do not have a strong opinion about playing spring sports in 2021. (I also have no dog in the fight, because my son took a gap year.) And before you argue with me about legal liability and media coverage of the pandemic and so on, I will reiterate: My point is that the Ivies face the same environment (however skewed you think it may be) as other schools, but without the pressure of athletic revenues or applicant stats, which don't seem like they ought to figure into public health questions.
I agree with everything Chico says - except that I do have a dog in the fight, and I'm mad about it. If you had told my son that by choosing his school, he would likely lose a year of baseball (and college life) because his school doesn't take athletics more seriously than other extracurrics, would he have chosen somewhere else? But who could possibly have guessed that we would have a once-a-century pandemic?
I guess all those athletes now coming through high school can factor that into their thinking; the pandemic has laid this bare, as it has so many other things. Do you think this will impact Ivy athletic recruiting?
I noticed that about 10 D1 series were cancelled this weekend due to COVID. And what about all the kids on way-overloaded rosters who are supposed to follow stringent covid protocols (and thus lose some normality) but don't get into games? The grass is not necessarily greener.
Not only are sports not important to the university. They’re not important to a lot of the students. In fact, they often look down at athletes for getting priority on acceptance.
My cousin is a reasonable, but not diehard sports fan. He went to Harvard. He was completely unaware when they won a national championship in hockey. And he lived in Boston at the time. His sister went to Yale. When Yale won a national championship she was unaware they had a hockey team.
Then there’s the third cousin who went to Penn. He also went to Michigan Law. A lot of people are unaware he attended an Ivy. But they know he went to Michigan due to his constant basketball and football talk.
@RJM posted:Not only are sports not important to the university. They’re not important to a lot of the students.
This is a good point, RJM. UChicago students and alumni typically pay more attention to the announcements of Nobel Prizes each year than to how their athletic teams are doing. IMO, that's how a university should operate--but others have different views. Football weekends were a big factor in the school choices of a lot of young folks I know.
anotherparent makes a good point: If I'm an athlete, maybe I want to choose a school that does prioritize sports. (In fact, I'd say one reason my son chose his college is because they put a relatively high emphasis on sports for a HA D3.)
Probably goes without saying, but I do feel badly for Ivy athletes who will be watching the rest of D1 play. That's worse than just having your own season cancelled.
From a consumer standpoint the position is simple and easy to understand. If you are serious about playing any sport, don’t attend an Ivy League school or a HA D3 school. By definition those schools treat athletes no differently than any other student and sports are not important to them. I think the past 12 months have brought that into focus whereas in the past it was not fully understood by prospective student athletes and their parents. Kinda like you don’t go to any of the Military Academies with sports as the highest priority.
Chico,
A couple things....
What I'm attempting to point out is a separation between; Covid policy planning, implementation and communication by the Ivys. My point is the Covid planning and implementation by Ivys and others is as I would expect it (no surprises here)....again athletics is not a huge part of the overall University so they are going to provide one policy for the whole student body irregardless of extracurricular activity. People go to these schools to get a great education...that is their core value prop and they are sticking to it. My other point is the Covid communicaton has been terrible, and clearly everybody agrees.
Your question: But I'm confused by parts of your post: Do you think the Ivies ought to treat athletes differently than other students? Or put another way, should they treat other student activities differently than sports?
It isn't what I think that is important. What is important is what it is....clearly the Ivys treat their athletes as normal students first and foremost. Athletes get no preferential treatment or advantages...that is pretty much etched in stone. Nobody gets any preferential treatment or advantages. My understanding is they are treating student activities no differently than sports which is consistent with their policy. As RJM points out, being an athlete can actually be detriment as faculty and students initially look down on athletes until they prove themselves in the classroom. My son witnessed this first hand and I know others that experienced it. In the eyes of the President, his campus is made up of one big student body. There is no right or wrong here. It is important to know ahead of time what that student-athlete experience is going to look like at these schools.
This is purely conjecture on my part, but I'm willing to bet someone a pint of Guinness that the Ivy University Presidents handed their policies down to each Student Affairs Director and the Athletic Directors to see if they could make sports work. They did a risk assessment, and made a recommendation back to the President before he got together with his peers. ADs just aren't going to have a lot of political juice among these schools and that is probably where it died on the vine. If you put yourself in the ADs shoes, how are you going to financially justify spending a lot of money (OPEX) and taking a large risk that can do very little for the overall University? I think other schools are more willing to take that risk and ADs are better positioned to influence it. My two younger sons went to an ACC school and a Big South school. Their ADs and HCs are very well known and very well connected. Any body who follows sports in our area knows who they are. They are playing baseball this Spring. Again, its not right or wrong it is just the way it is.
Again, JMO.
For those who may be unaware - the chairperson of the NCAA Division 1 council is Penn's AD, Grace Calhoun. I don't know how much pull she has with the Penn administration, but she has it at the NCAA.
One of the previous posts mentioned debate, orchestra, and other activities. I don't see why those activities can't move forward either. If you have to, move them outside and socially distance them. If you care at all about these students and their activities, no matter what they are, figure it out. If you don't care, then don't find a solution.
Bottom line is there are 300 Division 1 baseball programs. 292 of them have figured out how to play. The Ivy likes to present themselves as leadership institutions. I'll let the group decide if they have shown any leadership during this time.
A couple years ago TBPT's son did a Harvard camp because we were there for vacation and Harvard is/was (I think it has slipped) his dream school. There were a couple kids there the coach was recruiting who had offers at other big D1 baseball programs. The coach spent most of his speech trying to convince those players and their parents that playing baseball at Harvard would offer the same opportunities at Big State U. I would think these types of kids will not consider an Ivy for a while now.
Had a brief but telling conversation with my senior HA player yesterday. The conference he's in still hasn't made a decision but he thinks the writing's on the wall, especially considering the Ivy League decision.
He also says he's "over it." Ah, blithe spirit. I pointed out that over a third of the students at his college are varsity athletes. He pointed out that many of his school's peer institutions as well as at least two other HA-ish conferences had also dropped spring sports. The schools in those conferences have a high number of varsity athletes, as well. He also pointed out that theater kids, to name one group suffering the same fate as athletes, had had their programs shut down, too.
I asked him to start thinking with his heart. He smiled and condescendingly shook his head, as if to say, "Dad, oh, Dad, you'll figure it out someday."
I said, "As long as I see other D3 schools playing games via their college's digital options, I'm not gonna get over it."
He said, "Don't watch that stuff. Watch "The Thin Red Line" or "Interstellar" or "Mission Impossible." You know, one of those philosophical films you like so much. You'll be happier. Good talk, Dad. I'm going surfing. Love ya."
Remembered this cartoon I came across many years ago when I was doing college admission counseling. Just change the caption to:
"Don't cry, Mom. Lots of parents have children who lost half of their college athletic careers to COVID-19 and the parents still went on to live happy, fulfilled lives."
Attachments
Images (1)
Smoke, if everyone's sons could go surfing, it all might seem better to them, too!
Of course, the real answer is that the Ivy League should be D3. They don't give scholarships anyway, what do they really gain by being D1? Maybe a tiny bit of t.v. revenue? They attract a better level of athletes, but why do they care about that? Is it the hockey, rowing, and fencing? Alumni want it?
@anotherparent posted:Smoke, if everyone's sons could go surfing, it all might seem better to them, too!
Of course, the real answer is that the Ivy League should be D3. They don't give scholarships anyway, what do they really gain by being D1? Maybe a tiny bit of t.v. revenue? They attract a better level of athletes, but why do they care about that? Is it the hockey, rowing, and fencing? Alumni want it?
Alumni of teams definitely do. And, to your point, there are certain sports where an Ivy program is consistently competitive at the highest levels. And not just hockey, crew and fencing. Cornell is a Top-10 wrestling program, and Princeton is often very competitive as well. Yale has been in natty's for lax, Dartmouth for skiing, etc. Not revenue generating, TV sports, but certainly not insignificant. Maybe the solve would be splitting divisions, keep the few sports you can compete in D1 and everything else goes D3?
Not sure, but go back to the original point...You can't help but feel awful for the players and the coaches. Not what anyone signed up for.
@smokeminside posted:Remembered this cartoon I came across many years ago when I was doing college admission counseling. Just change the caption to:
"Don't cry, Mom. Lots of parents have children who lost half of their college athletic careers to COVID-19 and they went on to live happy, fulfilled lives."
Smoke, we know the kids will be okay. The question is: will the parents be?
I think (?) the rule is that D3 schools may only offer, at most, one D1 sport for men, and one for women. I imagine the Ivies would be reluctant to have to drop all but, say, hockey to D3. And to hold the conference together, I think all or most of the members would need to choose to keep the same sport in D1 (rather than have, say four Ivy League D1 hockey teams and four D3.)
The recent decision about spring sports may drive away a few recruits. But it seems to me the great majority of Ivy players are still going to be interested in the the cachet that comes with degrees from those schools. (Not saying the hype is justified--just observing that the hype is out there.) Most Ivy baseball players aren't MLB prospects and aren't being recruited by top D1 programs. As a 2021 or later HS grad, I'd feel pretty safe betting that the 2020 and '21 seasons are a proverbial "black swan," and that baseball will be played in Cambridge, New Haven, et al. in future springs. (Famous last words, I know...)
- @Chico Escuela posted:
I think (?) the rule is that D3 schools may only offer, at most, one D1 sport for men, and one for women. I imagine the Ivies would be reluctant to have to drop all but, say, hockey to D3. And to hold the conference together, I think all or most of the members would need to choose to keep the same sport in D1 (rather than have, say four Ivy League D1 hockey teams and four D3.)
The recent decision about spring sports may drive away a few recruits. But it seems to me the great majority of Ivy players are still going to be interested in the the cachet that comes with degrees from those schools. (Not saying the hype is justified--just observing that the hype is out there.) Most Ivy baseball players aren't MLB prospects and aren't being recruited by top D1 programs. As a 2021 or later HS grad, I'd feel pretty safe betting that the 2020 and '21 seasons are a proverbial "black swan," and that baseball will be played in Cambridge, New Haven, et al. in future springs. (Famous last words, I know...)
The Ivies compete in two hockey conferences. The Ivy League Conference doesn’t qualify teams for the NCAA hockey tournament. It’s the ECAC tournament that qualifies them for the tournament. The Ivy league isn’t guaranteed anything. Penn and Columbia don’t have hockey programs.
@anotherparent posted:Of course, the real answer is that the Ivy League should be D3.
100%
@JCG posted:Smoke, we know the kids will be okay. The question is: will the parents be?
That's THE issue in our house. Both boys seem to have made their peace with it. The younger one has had an easier time of it because he knew spring was dead back in October.
In other news Georgetown has yet to approve its baseball team's schedule even though The Big East is a go. And of course the basketball team is competing indoors.
Unreal. I bet the new coach is ready to explode.
@anotherparent posted:......................................................
Of course, the real answer is that the Ivy League should be D3.
In my opinion, there are a couple different ways to look at this. The Ivys are clearly a niche, but there are other niches in the current NCAA universe. In football, you have the FCS and FBS. The Power 5 schools have essentially created their own sub-D1 division, leaving many D1 mid-majors to fend for themselves. Conference realignment and college athletic stipends were a hot topic just a few years ago. Possibly Covid-19 hit the pause button on conference realignment and things are going to heat up again....i'd put money on it! If the NCAA is going to remain relevant, they need to make some changes to the various Divisions. But systemic change takes time, and these conferences aren't going to always embrace change...there has to be something in it for them.
I've always referred to the Ivy and Patriot League as "hybrid-D1s" . Their competitive level is D1 but their reduced game schedule , reduced travel and reduced practice time are very D3-like. All of this is a major reason my son pursued this direction. As an engineering major it was not going to be in the cards (for him) at any other D1 than an Ivy or Patriot school. If there was a D3 engineering school that he had ranked higher and offered, there is no doubt he would have gone there.
As always, JMO.
I know a kid who is currently at Lehigh, he had planned to be an EE major...coach suggested business LOL. That is true story.