Jeter...

quote:

If I was Yankee mgt I would stick to my guns because I hold all the cards.

As the Verducci article notes, if they "force" or "allow" Jeter to leave, and Jeter does what Paul Molitor did from ages 37-40, Cashman will get fired and the Yankees will have a PR nightmare.
I too hope the Yankees stick aggressively to their guns and Jeter leaves...and is the starting shortstop in AT&T park in San Francisco for the next few years. I would love to be in the Park when he gets hit #3,000 and would enjoy watching him play behind Cain, Lincecum, Sanchez, Zito, Baumgardner, Wilson, et. al.

Is his legacy compromised by not resigning with the Yankees. I would think that as a player it would be a priority to be associated with all those great players of the past.

Yep... I would also like see Jeter in S.F for the next 6 yrs, with the Giants burdened with a 150 m contract. Maybe while their at they can extend Zito's deal another 4-5 years.

Infielddad,

First off, I love to argue points like this with someone who has a way of presenting their argument in a well thought out, organized way so I can certainly appreciate the point of view you are taking. To me this is all in fun but I do try to push for my point of view, I hope not in an ugly way. I will confess that sometimes when I am undecided or could go either way, I'll just take one side and kind of play devil's advocate just to stimulate the conversation, although not in this case. In this argument, it really doesn't matter to me if the Yankees want to go spend 200 million on Jeter, it's their money. I am truly one of his greatest admirers and hope he finishes with the Yankees in glorious fashion. I'm just taking the side of the argument that tries to truly evaluate players for their measurable value on and off the field. It's truly hard to measure the off the field stuff and put a price on it. My main point is that Jeter was vastly compensated for his leadership, off the field behavior and "specialness" in his previous $189 million dollar contract the last time, just as $45 million for three years does the same thing since that is vastly above his value on the field which can be calculated nowadays in many different ways.

I don't think fiscal responsibility in baseball allows teams,even the Yankees to pay declining players 23-25 million dollars when there is no one else bidding against you,in other words setting that as a player's market value. I don't feel, Jeter is washed up. I think he will probably bounce back in some hitting categories next year. I would bet money the fielding stats will continue to decline year by year from a point that already has him as one of the worst defensive shortstops in the AL, particularily in range and sheer number of playes made. Jeter no more deserved that golden glove than I did. From a fielding standpoint there are many, many shortstops in baseball, Majors and minors who are better fielders than he. You would be amazed at how much better the Yankee pitching would be if they had a shortstop who had some range to his left. By every parameter out there, Jeter is nowhere near an elite shortstop in the field. I know people watch on TV and see him make plays that are good ML plays but what the casual fan misses are the plays he DOES NOT make. They're not errors but they should be made by a better than average ML shortstop.

As a hitter, especially a top of the order hitter, Jeter is no longer of much value unless he hits .300 plus. He does not draw a ton of walks, a .340 OBP is not much above the whole league OBP of .327 which includes every weak hitter in baseball. He can still run a little as evidenced by his 18-5 stolen base to caught stealing ratio, but the last four years has seen a jump by 33 percent in his grounding into double plays, reaching the point where he is grounding into more DP's than most third and fourth place hitters--and this is as a leadoff hitter most of the time! The .710 OPS is a massive decline from past years as power is also falling. Take away his .330 average with 4 of his HRs in April and the rest of his year was really poor offensively. You can't have one guy making 484 outs and call him a productive hitter. Nowadays, we must delve deeper into the numbers provided to see the true production above things like batting average that can give a false picture of productivity. That's why Jeter may consider himself a top of the order guy, but he now produces more like an eight or ninth place hitter in the AL. What's really bad is that the Yankees have a guy like Brett Gardner who is a younger, faster, better OBP, leadoff guy but they bat him at the end of the order to appease Jeter's feelings. It always surprises me how many things are done in the ML's that are not condusive to best team outcome but to assuage egos or higher contracted players. Managers often have to ask a longtime star to move him down in the order instead of just putting him where its best for the team. This was an issue with DiMaggio at the end so it's nothing new. Cal Ripkin was a drag on his team at the end but no one had the guts to move him in the lineup or for that matter to bench him at times.

I know the Yankees will not have sold 250 million dollars in Jeter tee shirts by the end of Jeter's career and I think his salaries and proposed salary have more than covered that. I know most of you posters are younger than me and truly don't remember a time when players really started declining at 34 or 35 years of age and were often done at 37, 38, or 39. This was before new and better things through chemistry. I think for the most part we are in those times again. Therefore, salaries that Bonds or Clemens or other guys were well worth at 38 or 40 no longer apply unless you want to be paying a .225 or .240 hitter 23 million dollars in his last years. Jeter deserves for his on the field and off the field excellence to be paid extremely well. Being the highest paid shortstop in the game by 4 million a season (at least until the unnecessary Tulowiski extension goes into effect) is already taking all those good things into account.

Zito's contract is probably the reason the Giants have a new managing partner. Everyone knows it was made at a level above the GM.
While he is overpaid, Zito actually performed quite well this year until the last 2-3 starts. His run support was less than ideal.
Zito is not the poster boy for the Giants.
They, and I do mean they are Lincecum, Cain, Wilson, Baumgardner and Sanchez, along with Posey.
Those along with Huff are 7 homeruns to contrast with the previous error of overpaying on Zito.
Brian Sabean does his homework and knows the Yankees very well and Jeter even better. I will be more than happy to trust his baseball judgment.

While I was composing my opus ( ) above, I didn't get to read the Verducci article until now. One thing that he doesn't get is that the Biggio contracts were talking 500 thousand or a million extra on one year contracts not tens of millions of dollars on three year contracts. I guess every one wants to pay him for what he was while I want to pay him for what he is now.

Actually I'm kind of surprised too that the Yankees decided to finally find some fiscal sense now in this case, with this guy, but I'm going to take the view that past mistakes with contracts does not mean you just keep doing the same dumb things.

I think it would be interesting if I was a Giants fan to watch Jeter at first but after a while I would realize I'm watching a 23 million dollar shortstop give my team 6 million dollars of performance and I don't want 17 million dollars worth of "specialness" per season.

ThreeBagger,
I was in college when I watched the demise of Willie Mays in San Francisco and the sadness of his trade to the Mets. That probably gives away I am no youngster and an idea I was around and remember the time of which you speak. I was crushed when Koufax retired when he was on top.
The end and demise in skill levels of prideful players of the types like Mays, Koufax, Ripken and Jeter is filled with baseball emotions.
I surely am not going to stand up and say Jeter is going to do what Molitor did after he was let go by the Brewers at age 36, but I hope he does. I love Verducci's analogy to the Brewers going down when they took a "stand" and Molitor's excellence from ages 36-40.
If any current player can emulate Molitor results vs. diminishing returns, for me it is Jeter.
Where we fundamentally disagree is the "joy" of getting to play Monopoly with my trying to get you to land on Boardwalk with one hotel and your using the financials to buy up Marvin Gardens, all the yellows and oranges and looking for me to stop at each.
This is discussing with you how the Yankees should allocate and spend "all" that money.
Look, I don't believe for a minute Jeter is sticking with $150,000,000 for 6 years. My expectation is that number came as a result of the offer.
Baseball revenue is increasing. Again, my view is Jeter was underpaid at $189,000,000 for 10 years based on the role he played as the poster boy for MLB and the Yankees when MLB had the steroid egg plastered all over it.
MLB revenues are at an all time high and Jeter plays an important role in that.
His performance on the field and especially as the dugout leader, alone, during that contract justifies the money/contract, in my view. He earned that money by his performance on the field. What he also earned but was not paid is the recognition and attraction he brought to MLB and his team and the associated major revenue growth that resulted.
Absent some Bud act of foolishness, MLB revenues will continue to increase. So the Yankees want him to take less money over a future period when revenue growth will continue upwards.
The Yankees want to reap the rewards, the financial ones that Jeter helped them earn over the past 10 years. While the nature of MLB keeping the books a secret will prevent us from ever knowing, I am betting Yankee revenues increased far more on a percentage basis than Jeter's contract over that 10 years.
That didn't occur because of Brian Cashman, the front office, or anything else. It occurred because, as Torre says, they have the best on field/in the dugout leader in baseball, in significant part.
No one believed we would see Joe Torre in Dodger Blue. We did and it seemed fine...except for the disaster called the McCourts.
To me, the Yankees didn't need to make this public. It is a shame they did, in my view. Jeter does have much more value in NYC that elsewhere.
I don't see Jeter anywhere near where I remember Willie Mays at a comparable age. I just don't think he is done.
Verducci's article makes mention of Jeter having to make some physical adjustments this year. I am not sure what that means and whether it means Jeter played with an injury and never said a word/won't say a word.
I do know that injury in professional baseball, from players who don't say anything, affects performance.
So, from an on the field view, I will argue Jeter has the ability to approximate the Molitor results at a similar age.
I could be wrong. If it were my money, I would invest it in Jeter at a level higher than the current offer and I would not make this public.
I would pay Jeter that money before I would have ever paid the money Cashman doled out for guys like A.J. Burnett. If the contracts doled out to the overpaid, are the reason for this stand,Cashman should take the heat. He should not try and use Jeter as the line in the sand because he didn't do his job by overpaying and didn't do it over, and over, and over again.
It just seems to me more than a bit "ingenious," alright..I think it is obnoxious, to be taking this position with Jeter when there are more than a few contracts like Burnett in your dugout.
From a financial picture, with ever increasing revenues, the Yankees can afford to pay him more, even if part of it is as a recognition of their financial success over the past 10 years, which success came from their face on the field and everywhere else.
I personally hope Jeter leaves. He will likely get less money outside NYC. AT&T sure seems like a place he could get "reborn." I have some recall that Brian Sabean was involved in either the scouting or signing of Jeter. I could be wrong, but I believe they were closely aligned when Jeter was young and Brian was a scout for the Yankees.
The Giants won't/can't pay anywhere close to NY Yankee money. My hunch, just purely a personal hunch, is if Jeter says good bye, he would not demand the same money from a team like the Giants. He won't come cheap, but the deal would be different, perhaps on a scale similar to what Torre's was with the Dodgers vs Yankees.

3bagger,
"Jeter at first." Hmmm...

CADad.

He would probably be better at first than Giambi was!

Well we now know who won't be the Yankee shortstop in a few years. Tulowitzski just signed a seven year extension which will carry him until 2020 with a total reported worth of 157.75 million. Sounds like he got his own Jeter contract!

Well Tejada just signed with S.F. Maybe Jeter could hook-up with the Nats.

Things are getting interesting with this game of "shortstop shuffle"!

Just my speculation, but I am assuming Jeter is not taking $6.500,000 for one year with some performance bonuses.
Either Sabean knew he couldn't play in the sandbox, Jeter is going to the Yankees, or Jeter is in decline and is seeking too much money.
I don't think he liked Tejada better absent one of those, or something else. Maybe he just wanted to keep the Giants from a "collusion" claim?

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
I continue to wonder why so many are supportive of ownership especially against a player like Jeter.

It's not a matter of supporting ownership over a player. It's a matter of facing reality, and, surpisingly to many of us, the Yankees are closer to reality in this instance than is Jeter.

A likely compromise:

$18 mil/year for three years with team option for 4th year. Failure to exercise option (and the Yankees will fail exercise the option) costs Yankees $6 mil.

End result, Jeter plays three years for $60 mil. He gets the equivalent of his bottom line $20 mil a year and Yankees get a three year deal.

I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think there is really any worry of collusion claims because Jeter is the one who has literally priced himself out of the market. Seriously, I don't think there is a team in baseball that would even offer him more than ten million a season. Really I feel 7 or 8 million is what he would be worth to other teams at this point. Just not getting offers is not collusion. Some of the big money players ( Mets, Rangers, Tigers, Dodgers) are not in the market for a shortstop's services or in Boston's case probably certain he wouldn't come there anyway. Also Boston watches their spending a little closer and are fine with their much cheaper SS options. I think you are very close Jimmy03 to what will happen.

The Tejada signing just shows exactly what the market will bear, as he signed a one year contract. I didn't see for how much but last year he was paid 6 million. I would certainly rather have Jeter if I could get him at near the same price and I'm sure the Giants would too, but Jeter of course will be three to four times as expensive per year and wants a four or five year contract. At least with Tejada who actually is WORSE than Jeter offensively and has lied about his age before, you can easily just cut bait if he doesn't work out and you're not out too much cash. Just a stop/gap move on the Giants part.

I really hate to see when these things happen, a lifetime player and his organization negotiating in public view.

I think the reality is that it's like buying a house, the newer house is much more attractive to the buyer.

Just think folks, if this goes on between those that have a deep relationship, imagine what happens to the player just drafted, something to think about when thinking the team is going to pay what you think your player is worth, good lessons to be learned here.

quote:

It's not a matter of supporting ownership over a player. It's a matter of facing reality, and, surpisingly to many of us, the Yankees are closer to reality in this instance than is Jeter.

I could not disagree more and with more "vigor!"
Jeter and his agent have a much better idea of the amount of revenue and profit in MLB than we do.
Why? MLB keeps everything quiet.
We have a "reality" shaped by what MLB and the Yankees want to "shape" as reality.
If they want everyone sharing the "reality," just open the books.
Nope, not going to happen, ever.
TPM is so much on point in her post.
MLB will squash any effort to "ask" for more than they think is "okay" to "ask."
Squash...and now they have chosen to "squash" Jeter without being willing to "open" the revenue and profit books for all to see.
Nope, I don't trust MLB and don't feel they want the "reality" to be on anything other than the terms, dictates and secrecy of MLB. I am not buying that "reality" is what MLB is selling.
Sorry, I am not.

Would any other shortstop at Jeter's age and stats for the past three years get f 4-5 year deal at 23-24 mil per year?

No. And that's financial reality.

You think the Jeter name is worth more?

Apparently the Yankees don't. And that's reality.

Jeter sees a world where one gets paid for past performances twice. The Yankee seem to have moved beyond that...into reality.

I am not really taking any strong side in this situation, other than I think it's sad it has to be drawn out publicly, and he told to test the market, but that is what the yankees do. I do beleive Jeter should be rewarded $$$ (within reason) for who he is (yes a bit above his performance value), they can afford it, I am not sure I would give him 3 years though.

It's rumored that Jeter perhaps has an injury he has been hiding, will be interesting to see how this whole thing pans out.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:
Would any other shortstop at Jeter's age and stats for the past three years get f 4-5 year deal at 23-24 mil per year?

No. And that's financial reality.

You think the Jeter name is worth more?

Apparently the Yankees don't. And that's reality.

Jeter sees a world where one gets paid for past performances twice. The Yankee seem to have moved beyond that...into reality.

What I said...the Yankees are establishing your reality based on the number they dictate, without telling you how much revenue and profit they generate.
Gross and net revenues are the "reality."
None of us know what that reality might be because the Yankees and MLB are not going to give us any hint.

Remember last year when some financial info came out about a couple of teams--one was the Pirates, I believe--and how they were making a huge profit with the luxury tax money and not really reinvesting the money in their teams. I notice the Pirates at least have now started spending more on their draft choices anyway. I would give anything to see the Yankees and Red Sox "books".

I think the point is that at 150 games, and $15,000,000 Jeter needs to add 1000 seats per game to pay his salary for the year if each seat is worth $100 in cost of seat, parking, snacks and Jerseys. I think Jeter in any park increases attendance far more than that.

Not an econ major, I take it.

Jeter had his payday 10 years ago in his prime. He's old now and should expect a pay cut. It's not like he's gotta go on the street to beg or something. He's still gonna make an insane amount of money for playing a kids game.

quote:

Originally posted by bbfamgramp:
I think the point is that at 150 games, and $15,000,000 Jeter needs to add 1000 seats per game to pay his salary for the year if each seat is worth $100 in cost of seat, parking, snacks and Jerseys. I think Jeter in any park increases attendance far more than that.

With the Yankees success at the gate it's not a matter of Jeter drawing more fans. The situation the Yankees would have to determine is if losing Jeter would cost the Yankees 1,000 per game at the gate.

David Ortiz pi$$ed and moaned about the Sox not coming forward with a long term deal. When it came time to exercise the one year option 12.5M looked real good compared to the 7M players like Guerrero and Matsui signed last year. Now Ortiz is smiling and "hoping" the Sox and he can work something out for the future. This is a guy who put up a 30 hr, 100 rbi season. He knows what's coming. He'll be signing a one year 6-8M deal next year.

I'm betting Jeter doesn't get more than three years for 50M.

Revenues and profits are a non issue with the Yankees. They are in a league of their own when it comes to money. With their own TV station and a huge market, money is not an issue for them and is not an issue regarding Jeter IMO. It wouldn't affect them financially if they gave him 15 or 25 mil.

A NY sports radio host said a couple of years ago that the Yankees could add another $100 mil to their payroll and still be comfortable. Two years ago they add Sabbathia, Texeria, Burnett and Swisher in one off season. That was after giving ARod his $200 mil deal. Do you really think that money matters to them or that they have a budget?

So it's probably more on principle than financial that they are taking this stance with Jeter.

RJM and fillsfan, I think yall both hit the nail on the head. These Yankees will draw whether they have Jeter or not, just as they drew after Ruth left, DiMaggio left, Mantle left(Err.. maybe not so much after Mantle left because the farm system was barren, but that won't happen now with free agency and piles of money to spend). The Ortiz situation is exactly what usually happens to former stars who really don't have a connection with other teams that allows them to overpay for their skills. It still happens, but not usually to 36 or 37 year old guys. It's really hard to separate how many people come to see Jeter or instead actually come to see the Yankees and their overall stable of stars. However, I agree, this is not about what the Yankees COULD pay Jeter as much as for some reason they decided to hold the line on how much they WOULD pay him.

Like many people I admire Derek Jeter. He is a great player and even greater representative for the game.

That said, this is a two way street. Jeter has been great for the Yankees and the Yankees have been great for him.

Would Jeter be as popular and such a promotional magnet had he played in many other cities? Other than the millions he has made in salary, how many millions has he made on endorsements by playing for the New York Yankees?

My point is that if you’re Derek Jeter or any other “star” player would you rather play for the team that gets the most attention or a team that doesn’t get as much attention? If you’re a player that has been with that team your whole career and become a legendary figure and spokesman for that team, how much money would it take to leave? It’s not just what you’re worth as a player, it’s what you are worth overall.

The only way Jeter is going anywhere is if the Yankees think they would be better off without him. Surely they are considering his overall value to the organization. But, there comes a time when age gets in the way of being an everyday Major League shortstop.

2B or 3B or even 1B is probably not an option, so my guess is that at some point in time before Derek Jeter retires he will end up playing left field or DHing and the Yankees will sign one of the best shortstops that becomes a free agent.

if THE BOSS were still with us this would be a done deal-------he would sign jeter to a liflong contract because of what Jeter means to the Yankee brand

I am sure AFRAUD would love to take shortstop from Jeter. Yankees should sign Jeter to a one year 20 mil contract maybe with an option for a second see how he does year to year.

quote:

Originally posted by fillsfan:
Revenues and profits are a non issue with the Yankees. They are in a league of their own when it comes to money. With their own TV station and a huge market, money is not an issue for them and is not an issue regarding Jeter IMO. It wouldn't affect them financially if they gave him 15 or 25 mil.

This in one of the biggest myths about the super-rich. To paraphrase Warren Buffet: Money, and its management is even more important to the super-rich than it is to many if less advantageous financial positions. If it were not, they wouldn'nt remain super-rich. People don't stay wealthy by spending more than they need to on anything.

The Yankees are not just negotiating with Jeter, they are sending a message to all their players.

Daddy isn't in charge anymore.

quote:

The Yankees are not just negotiating with Jeter, they are sending a message to all their players.

Daddy isn't in charge anymore.

Are you sure?
What about Cliff Lee. Is it your view they are going to drive the hard ball negotiations with him based on the fact they overpaid for Burnett and many other pitchers?
Sort of "Cliff, we have over $100,000,000 in non-productive pitchers in our organization. You need to keep that in mind. We are out to protect ourselves from ourselves doing with you what we did with A.J.
Cliff, you were 12-9 last year. No way we consider Sabathia numbers for you"

Where's the myth Jimmy. The Yankees have more money than most of the other teams combined. Always have, always will.

It wasn't very good money management when they were paying several ex managers and ex players after free agent mistakes. The Yankees are super rich and will remain so regardless of how much they pay their players. And they will always spend and over spend to keep them competitive.

I'm going to throw something out here. I feel the way a team can be a winner year after year is to develop a pitcher rich farm system that kind of self perpetuates. Almost every long term pitching contract has been a disappointment while position player long term contracts yield at least decent return many times. You can then use excess pitching, especially starters to get position players you need and also have pitching help when injuries occur. Free agent position players can be acquired instead of the cr-apshoot that is the pitchers free agent market. This means draft pitchers and more pitchers, especially with early picks, only taking a position player early in the draft if it is someone very special like Harper. San Francisco has gotten themselves in this position and at times Oakland also. One necessity is a great pitching coach like Duncan or Mazzoni(spelling) and a manager who understand how to use a staff. Its a balancing act getting enough offense but the Giants showed you don't need to be a juggernaut to win with great pitching and solid defense. The Yankees and Boston seem to do best when they have a Pettite, Hughes, Lester, and Papillbon as their anchors--home grown talent.

quote:

Almost every long term pitching contract has been a disappointment while position player long term contracts yield at least decent return many times.

Does anyone else remember a time during the free agency era when a pitcher's contract over three years was considered ludicrous?

Does anyone remember Wayne Garland's long term free agency signing? After one good season with the Orioles (20-7, 2.67) he signed a long term contrat with the Indians. Over six seasons he was 28-48, 4.50. For quite a while it said the precedence for not signing pitchers to long term contracts.

quote:

Lester, and Papillbon

The top two starters, Lester and Buckholtz are home grown. The setup and closer, Papelbon and Bard are home grown. The farm system is loaded with pitching prospects.

quote:

You can then use excess pitching, especially starters to get position players you need

One major prospect, Masterson was a key part of the Martinez trade two years ago. He had been a successful middle man for the Sox. He hasn't done as well as a starter with Cleveland. But he's still only twenty-five. There were two supplemental first round pitchers added to the trade.

PGStaff- I was reading the PG site and looked at the recent article written by Patrick Ebert about Free Agent Draft Compensation and provided in depth analysis to how the process worked. In it listed the Elias Sports Bureau's free agent "ranking". Don't want to nit pick but I'm just curious as to why Jeter wasn't listed

Surely Jeter would be a type A free agent worth two picks but since he was not offered arbitration, I think that precludes the picks.

RJM,

I forgot to answer your question about remembering the W. Garland contract. I certainly do. Another early failure was the Messersmith signing also. Those scared a lot of front offices but as we've seen in the Hampton & Chan Ho Park contracts and numerous others there are still teams that like to gamble or sometimes don't even take into account stats that were built in great pitchers parks at home as opposed to the signing teams hitter's park.