Big week for juco coaches.
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Son's team played against those two 12 times over the last two years. Great programs and great coaches. Both will do well.
Yeah, this hits home. For one, IWCC is 10 minutes across the river from Omaha. My son has lots of buddies who are there or heading there this fall. Always scary to play for a coach who didn't recruit you.
That is very good to see.
I don’t know what the percentage of D1 teams that Iowa Western would have been able to beat over recent years would be, but it’s gotta be a lot of them!
The players were told that Western Kentucky contacted him for the first time on Saturday, that it was an offer too good to pass up and that everything happened in a 24-hour period. Said they "aggressively pursued" him. That may be the case, but Pawlowski resigned a month ago, so I am not sure he was their first choice. Or 2nd or 3rd. Not saying it was a bad hire. But given his 20-year mega success at IWCC, I have to think D1's have previously come calling plenty of times, so I am wondering why leave now?
The Mitch Thompson hire at Baylor had to be one of the most popular I can ever remember. Just go on Twitter and look at the comments and endorsements. It’s unreal. Mitch took over a pretty good program at McLennan something like 17 years ago after being an Asst Coach at Baylor and being passed up when Steve Smith retired. All he did was turn McLennan into one of the very best JuCo programs in America, culminating with a National Championship in 2021 - with one of the best JuCo teams I have ever seen. Going back to Baylor is a homecoming for Mitch and is being appropriately treated as such. Mitch is a players coach, is immensely popular, and is a tremendous recruiter. I talked to him for 30 minutes in the stands last summer in Grand Junction and he was wondering if he would ever get a D1 HC opportunity. And now he has it. Mitch is one of the good guys and I couldn’t be happier for him. Baylor got this one right!
JuCo coaches are under-rated. If you are a player that isn’t fully developed, you are likely to get more individual coaching, teaching, and instruction if you pick the RIGHT JuCo than you are anywhere else you could go.
@adbono posted:Mitch took over a pretty good program at McLennan something like 17 years ago after being an Asst Coach at Baylor and being passed up when Steve Smith retired.
Pretty sure 2013 was Mitch's first year - He didn't return my call until Trev had committed to Hill, and then proceeded to tell me why his first year program was going to be way better. Truth hurts, but it all worked out... Since I'm tossing out photos today, here's one of Coach Thompson giving it to a blue! Good Luck Coach, I guess I'll have to cut Baylor Baseball some slack now too!
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@JucoDad posted:Pretty sure 2013 was Mitch's first year - He didn't return my call until Trev had committed to Hill, and then proceeded to tell me why his first year program was going to be way better. Truth hurts, but it all worked out... Since I'm tossing out photos today, here's one of Coach Thompson giving it to a blue! Good Luck Coach, I guess I'll have to cut Baylor Baseball some slack now too!
You are correct on the year. I mistyped but was too lazy to go back and fix it.
@adbono posted:JuCo coaches are under-rated. If you are a player that isn’t fully developed, you are likely to get more individual coaching, teaching, and instruction if you pick the RIGHT JuCo than you are anywhere else you could go.
D1 baseball programs that can afford it are now following football programs by hiring player developmental guys. 1 for hitting, 1 for pitching. This gives the assistants more time to spend on the road recruiting.
I think that this is going to help bring in more true freshman to programs instead of relying on the portal. This should be a priority instead of throwing millions of dollar to players who even aren't on campus yet.
JMO
@TPM posted:D1 baseball programs that can afford it are now following football programs by hiring player developmental guys. 1 for hitting, 1 for pitching. This gives the assistants more time to spend on the road recruiting.
I think that this is going to help bring in more true freshman to programs instead of relying on the portal. This should be a priority instead of throwing millions of dollar to players who even aren't on campus yet.
JMO
Bringing on additional staff to develop young players would be a logical solution to the problem. And I applaud any program that will do that.
I just don’t see it happening except in rare occasions. Most schools aren’t going to increase their operational expenses if they don’t have to. Especially when they can reduce travel expenses by recruiting from video of proven players.
Adbono
question, why have the qualified JC Coaches not entered the rank of Division one? Mitch Assisted in our Area Code tryouts at Baylor. He was a true Professional.
He appreciated my need for “time management”
Bob
@adbono posted:Bringing on additional staff to develop young players would be a logical solution to the problem. And I applaud any program that will do that.
I just don’t see it happening except in rare occasions. Most schools aren’t going to increase their operational expenses if they don’t have to. Especially when they can reduce travel expenses by recruiting from video of proven players.
I guess you never noticed Texas A&M has one, Chuck Box. His title is Director of Player and Program Development.
@TPM posted:I guess you never noticed Texas A&M has one, Chuck Box. His title is Director of Player and Program Development.
Yes Barb, I’m aware that Chuck Box is on staff at Texas A&M. And I’m also aware of his title. In fact I have met him and talked with him about his role. I have met the entire coaching staff at A&M and talked with all of them about a lot of things. You want to take a guess what the A&M staff is doing this week? They are conducting exit interviews that have been described to me as a bloodbath. Many young players are getting their walking papers. They aren’t being retained to be developed. And they will be replaced by more experienced players from the transfer portal and from the JuCo ranks. This is what is happening. And it isn’t isolated to a few schools. I was on the field with coaches from more than 50 different schools at the Area Code tryouts last week. They were all saying the same thing. Transfer portal and JuCo transfers. Top D1 schools don’t want to develop freshmen. Because they don’t have to. I know this because countless coaches have told me this. You can continue to make your petty comments if that’s what you need to do. It has no effect on me. It just makes you look foolish.
@TPM posted:@JucoDad how is your son! Now that college baseball is over back to MLB.
He's doing well at the at the moment after a rough patch. He's blessed for the opportunity to learn and progress at this level - but it's hard on the old man...
I've said this before, most all who've played dream about reaching the MLB - and I couldn't be more proud of the work Trev does to compete and the man he has become through the process. However, having a catch with your kid, being part of the youth, HS, juco and college baseball community of parents and players is the parental sweet spot. The joy is in living in the moment while on the journey and not reaching any specific point.
@TPM posted:D1 baseball programs that can afford it are now following football programs by hiring player developmental guys. 1 for hitting, 1 for pitching. This gives the assistants more time to spend on the road recruiting.
I think that this is going to help bring in more true freshman to programs instead of relying on the portal. This should be a priority instead of throwing millions of dollar to players who even aren't on campus yet.
JMO
IMHO, unless the NCAA changes Transfer eligibility (reverts back), freedom to move without penalty is the new normal.
The Team Roster Turnover Dashboard can help you quickly understand where this may be trending
https://collegebaseballinsight...nover-insights-free/
Note, 2022 season is a telling sign of where player movement is trending, combined with transfer portal, NLI and change in rules, some outcomes are predictable.
Note, understanding a school's roster management strategy will pivot about 1 or 2 times within the next 3 to 5 years.
The growth of the JUCO Pipelines will be another factor
https://keepplayingbaseball.or...f-the-juco-pipeline/
There were 26 JUCO Alumni on the 2 CWS Finalist
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@adbono posted:Bringing on additional staff to develop young players would be a logical solution to the problem. And I applaud any program that will do that.
I just don’t see it happening except in rare occasions. Most schools aren’t going to increase their operational expenses if they don’t have to. Especially when they can reduce travel expenses by recruiting from video of proven players.
I don't agree with your generalization.
Where do you see it not happening? In Texas, Oklahoma?
I am not being petty.
I was showing you that Player Development guys exist. They get paid, not volunteer, to assist in working with players while the assistants are on the road recuiting. Maybe in some cases they are grad students.
Are you saying that recruiters and assistants are getting paid to stay home and recruit from the portal?
@TPM posted:I don't agree with your generalization.
Where do you see it not happening? In Texas, Oklahoma?
I am not being petty.
I was showing you that Player Development guys exist. They get paid, not volunteer, to assist in working with players while the assistants are on the road recuiting. Maybe in some cases they are grad students.
Are you saying that recruiters and assistants are getting paid to stay home and recruit from the portal?
I am speaking in generalizations. There is no other way to talk about this. Because of NIL and the transfer portal D1 recruiting is not being done the way it has been in the past. It is radically unfair to HS seniors.
I am saying that I’m seeing fewer big school D1 coaches at recruiting events this summer than ever before. The ones that do show up are there only to be seen. They aren’t taking notes. They aren’t looking at players. They are on their phone. Events like Area Code tryouts and high profile area tournaments that draw teams from all over the SW region. There is less interest in HS players among top D1 schools than I have ever seen. I am at these events and this is what I have seen.
What I don’t understand is why they are signing them when they don’t intend to keep them and develop them. The programs that have coaches with the title of Player Development don’t seem to be using those coaches for that purpose. The days of signing freshmen and bringing them along are almost gone for now. Not very many programs still do much of that. Especially with position players. If a kid can’t help a program win from the minute he steps on campus he is shown the door more often than not. Most kids aren’t given a chance to be a good teammate and wait their turn. Most are forced to transfer by the school that initially recruited them. Why spend 2 years working with a kid hoping he develops into a player that can help you win if you can go snag an already developed player out of the transfer portal? That is the argument that so many programs are subscribing to. And I’m saying it’s the most prevalent at the top 50 D1 programs. I know this because coaches on staff at many of these programs have told me so during events that I have attended with them.
As a matter of fact I’m attending another recruiting event today for uncommitted HS players. All the coaches will talk and I will hear the same thing. I very involved in recruiting and player evaluation. I’m often around other guys that do the same and we talk. This isn’t something I’m reading on Twitter or a rumors I hear from friends. This is grass roots information that I’m passing on for the benefit of the board. And I have to be careful how I do it. I can’t name names and I have to speak in generalities. Your need to challenge things I say (that many other people also see) doesn’t make things any easier or any better.
@adbono posted:I am speaking in generalizations. There is no other way to talk about this. Because of NIL and the transfer portal D1 recruiting is not being done the way it has been in the past. It is radically unfair to HS seniors.
I am saying that I’m seeing fewer big school D1 coaches at recruiting events this summer than ever before. The ones that do show up are there only to be seen. They aren’t taking notes. They aren’t looking at players. They are on their phone. Events like Area Code tryouts and high profile area tournaments that draw teams from all over the SW region. There is less interest in HS players among top D1 schools than I have ever seen. I am at these events and this is what I have seen.
What I don’t understand is why they are signing them when they don’t intend to keep them and develop them. The programs that have coaches with the title of Player Development don’t seem to be using those coaches for that purpose. The days of signing freshmen and bringing them along are almost gone for now. Not very many programs still do much of that. Especially with position players. If a kid can’t help a program win from the minute he steps on campus he is shown the door more often than not. Most kids aren’t given a chance to be a good teammate and wait their turn. Most are forced to transfer by the school that initially recruited them. Why spend 2 years working with a kid hoping he develops into a player that can help you win if you can go snag an already developed player out of the transfer portal? That is the argument that so many programs are subscribing to. And I’m saying it’s the most prevalent at the top 50 D1 programs. I know this because coaches on staff at many of these programs have told me so during events that I have attended with them.
As a matter of fact I’m attending another recruiting event today for uncommitted HS players. All the coaches will talk and I will hear the same thing. I very involved in recruiting and player evaluation. I’m often around other guys that do the same and we talk. This isn’t something I’m reading on Twitter or a rumors I hear from friends. This is grass roots information that I’m passing on for the benefit of the board. And I have to be careful how I do it. I can’t name names and I have to speak in generalities. Your need to challenge things I say (that many other people also see) doesn’t make things any easier or any better.
I'm going to take the naive approach. Bring Tuition $$$ to the school, at least for the fall semester.
There is nothing to lose because there is minimal capital outlay.
I'm assuming signing means verbal commitment.
@adbono posted:I am speaking in generalizations. There is no other way to talk about this. Because of NIL and the transfer portal D1 recruiting is not being done the way it has been in the past. It is radically unfair to HS seniors.
I am saying that I’m seeing fewer big school D1 coaches at recruiting events this summer than ever before. The ones that do show up are there only to be seen. They aren’t taking notes. They aren’t looking at players. They are on their phone. Events like Area Code tryouts and high profile area tournaments that draw teams from all over the SW region. There is less interest in HS players among top D1 schools than I have ever seen. I am at these events and this is what I have seen.
What I don’t understand is why they are signing them when they don’t intend to keep them and develop them. The programs that have coaches with the title of Player Development don’t seem to be using those coaches for that purpose. The days of signing freshmen and bringing them along are almost gone for now. Not very many programs still do much of that. Especially with position players. If a kid can’t help a program win from the minute he steps on campus he is shown the door more often than not. Most kids aren’t given a chance to be a good teammate and wait their turn. Most are forced to transfer by the school that initially recruited them. Why spend 2 years working with a kid hoping he develops into a player that can help you win if you can go snag an already developed player out of the transfer portal? That is the argument that so many programs are subscribing to. And I’m saying it’s the most prevalent at the top 50 D1 programs. I know this because coaches on staff at many of these programs have told me so during events that I have attended with them.
As a matter of fact I’m attending another recruiting event today for uncommitted HS players. All the coaches will talk and I will hear the same thing. I very involved in recruiting and player evaluation. I’m often around other guys that do the same and we talk. This isn’t something I’m reading on Twitter or a rumors I hear from friends. This is grass roots information that I’m passing on for the benefit of the board. And I have to be careful how I do it. I can’t name names and I have to speak in generalities. Your need to challenge things I say (that many other people also see) doesn’t make things any easier or any better.
Also starting to hear the stories of incoming freshman being told "you're more than welcome to still come to "state U", but if you look at the numbers, it might be better if.............. and we can get you to this school for a year and we'll follow you".
We heard of this happening in 2015 during our oldest's summer before going to school, but it was more due to the player's talent falling off the cliff, or personal issues. That is not is not the case now.
@russinfortworth posted:Also starting to hear the stories of incoming freshman being told "you're more than welcome to still come to "state U", but if you look at the numbers, it might be better if.............. and we can get you to this school for a year and we'll follow you".
We heard of this happening in 2015 during our oldest's summer before going to school, but it was more due to the player's talent falling off the cliff, or personal issues. That is not is not the case now.
100% correct
All, let's get beyond the misunderstanding. I believe we are all talking the same thing, just with a little nuance.
We've all predicted these events would happen. Impact would be national, regional and local.'
SO EVERYBODY HAS A BEEN 85% RIGHT (lol) I can't give us a 90%
Note this group is tame vs what is on twitter.
I got my popcorn with a heavy douse of butter observing what is going on (Slap My Head) in the twitter sphere.
All is good though
The success of Schlossnagle with the portal in one year will only make this worse. Really makes me sick. Might as well be another pro league. And if you can get drafted out of hs, go!
@adbono posted:I am speaking in generalizations. There is no other way to talk about this. Because of NIL and the transfer portal D1 recruiting is not being done the way it has been in the past. It is radically unfair to HS seniors.
I am saying that I’m seeing fewer big school D1 coaches at recruiting events this summer than ever before. The ones that do show up are there only to be seen. They aren’t taking notes. They aren’t looking at players. They are on their phone. Events like Area Code tryouts and high profile area tournaments that draw teams from all over the SW region. There is less interest in HS players among top D1 schools than I have ever seen. I am at these events and this is what I have seen.
What I don’t understand is why they are signing them when they don’t intend to keep them and develop them. The programs that have coaches with the title of Player Development don’t seem to be using those coaches for that purpose. The days of signing freshmen and bringing them along are almost gone for now.
So as the parent of a 2025 this is the part I am having the most difficulty wrapping my brain around.
Seems like the top schools want to have their cake and eat it too. They have "commitments" from kids that haven't even started high school, but will dump them at the drop of a hat for proven college talent when they show up on campus.
Yet somehow all of my son's freshmen high school teammates are in GA this week along with 300+ teams spending thousands of dollars trying to secure an offer that has never had less security.
This system is jacked up.
@DaddyBaller posted:So as the parent of a 2025 this is the part I am having the most difficulty wrapping my brain around.
Seems like the top schools want to have their cake and eat it too. They have "commitments" from kids that haven't even started high school, but will dump them at the drop of a hat for proven college talent when they show up on campus.
Yet somehow all of my son's freshmen high school teammates are in GA this week along with 300+ teams spending thousands of dollars trying to secure an offer that has never had less security.
This system is jacked up.
Accurate. I become more and more disillusioned, the more I see.
@DaddyBaller posted:So as the parent of a 2025 this is the part I am having the most difficulty wrapping my brain around.
Seems like the top schools want to have their cake and eat it too. They have "commitments" from kids that haven't even started high school, but will dump them at the drop of a hat for proven college talent when they show up on campus.
Yet somehow all of my son's freshmen high school teammates are in GA this week along with 300+ teams spending thousands of dollars trying to secure an offer that has never had less security.
This system is jacked up.
Your son’s team (and all the others) are in GA because you have all been conditioned to believe that’s what you need to do. It never has been as important as all have been led to believe. But that’s never been more true than it is right now.
@DaddyBaller posted:So as the parent of a 2025 this is the part I am having the most difficulty wrapping my brain around.
Seems like the top schools want to have their cake and eat it too. They have "commitments" from kids that haven't even started high school, but will dump them at the drop of a hat for proven college talent when they show up on campus.
Yet somehow all of my son's freshmen high school teammates are in GA this week along with 300+ teams spending thousands of dollars trying to secure an offer that has never had less security.
This system is jacked up.
1/2 way through my 2022's HS career, I realize that the journey was more fun the less I worried about it.
Do what you can, but don't sweat it.
Enjoy the time in the car, enjoy the dinners, enjoy washing the uniforms at a hotel that only has 2 wash machines (imagine an tournament organization giving you this hotel......I digress), enjoy the dinners w/ the other parents, enjoy the vitamin D3, enjoy preparing for the trip, enjoy it all...........because soon it ends (1 more trip for sure, and hope to have 1 more big one), because in a bit you'll be looking at the dogs thinking "it's just me and you now".
@adbono posted:Your son’s team (and all the others) are in GA because you have all been conditioned to believe that’s what you need to do. It never has been as important as all have been led to believe. But that’s never been more true than it is right now.
Just to be clear we walked away from the big time "travel" program this summer, but all of his 2025 highschool teammates are there.
He's playing locally in 17u and 16u tournaments. This is FL so he's basically facing the same level of "elite" 2025 competition at a fraction of the cost....
Still get all the joys of car rides and team meals but with the benefit of keeping the lights on at home. 😉
@DaddyBaller posted:Yet somehow all of my son's freshmen high school teammates are in GA this week along with 300+ teams spending thousands of dollars trying to secure an offer that has never had less security.
This system is jacked up.
WWBA used to be a very good thing. It still is if you're part of the inner circle - the teams that make the playoffs. Georgia is a flight for us and schools 10 miles away were there watching at 2am so it's not all bad. It's just not good if you don't do it right. Which unfortunately is the case for about 60% of the teams there
I agree that the big tournaments and the summer circuit have a place in confirming the measurables with on field performance.
But I would say 95% of most rising sophomores don't have the numbers D1's are looking for and the lower levels are not recruiting that far in advance.
Just don't see the value in "chasing it" at such a young age. In the world of social media if you're a legit "dude", the right people know who you are before you even have to leave your home town.
I think WWBA is still important or at least it was for my son. I don’t know what you replace it with There are still college scouts there for the younger guys like this week and the studs. There will be fewer in the weeks to come as the older guys come.
@DaddyBaller posted:So as the parent of a 2025 this is the part I am having the most difficulty wrapping my brain around.
Seems like the top schools want to have their cake and eat it too. They have "commitments" from kids that haven't even started high school, but will dump them at the drop of a hat for proven college talent when they show up on campus.
Yet somehow all of my son's freshmen high school teammates are in GA this week along with 300+ teams spending thousands of dollars trying to secure an offer that has never had less security.
This system is jacked up.
@daddyballer
It was the same in 2012, fortunately my sister lived in Georgia. So all I had to do is buy food and cook a couple of meals for the family.
I make a mean Lasagna.
@DaddyBaller posted:Yet somehow all of my son's freshmen high school teammates are in GA this week along with 300+ teams spending thousands of dollars trying to secure an offer that has never had less security.
Of course they are and there is an easily understandable reason for that. EVERY kid (and their parents) believe that they will prevail no matter what the situation is. EVERY kid (and their parents) sincerely BELIEVE they are special. Because that is exactly what we've told them their entire baseball "careers." When you are 100% convinced that you will succeed once you get through the door, getting through the door - no matter how expensive, time-consuming, etc - is all that matters. It's actually sound logic when you're convinced all you NEED is the opportunity. In other words, getting into a D1 program WILL result in me succeeding, so the only problem we have to solve for - is getting ANY offer. Including a walk on.
Everybody (in all walks of life) believes in this statement - just give me the opportunity and I'll deliver. I know I can, so I will.
A 2022 catcher/former teammate of my son got and accepted a late offer from an SEC school last August. The coaches seat is at least warm there having not made the SEC tourney since 2019 and finishing last in the SEC East 2 years in a row now. A late offer? A coach on the ropes? A freshman coming from the state of Nebraska? There is plenty there to be worried about, but guess what? There is none. Why? Because the kid and his folks KNOW he'll succeed.
So I completely understand why so many go to great lengths just to get that offer. What almost no one is ready to understand is that even in a classroom full of 25 A students, some straight-A kid is #25. So are numbers 4 through 24.
To be honest, when we went to WWBA, we bought the koolaid that it was about playing against the best, we really didn't know how much it might matter for recruiting (which, in the end, it didn't for D3). I still don't think that was entirely wrong.
My question is, where are all the future D1 transfers supposed to go out of HS? Do they go to jucos, or to lower-level D1s, and then hope to transfer up? And, where are all the juco and lower-level D1 coaches recruiting? Just locally?
And this thread was about juco coaches going to D1s. But, if you are looking for development, how do you find good coaches at jucos or lower-level schools, if those coaches are moving up?
And, what happens when the NCAA realizes what a disaster the open transfer thing is, and reverses?
The whole system seems to be entirely unstable, and it's hard to see when or how stability will come.
@anotherparent posted:To be honest, when we went to WWBA, we bought the koolaid that it was about playing against the best, we really didn't know how much it might matter for recruiting (which, in the end, it didn't for D3). I still don't think that was entirely wrong.
My question is, where are all the future D1 transfers supposed to go out of HS? Do they go to jucos, or to lower-level D1s, and then hope to transfer up? And, where are all the juco and lower-level D1 coaches recruiting? Just locally?
And this thread was about juco coaches going to D1s. But, if you are looking for development, how do you find good coaches at jucos or lower-level schools, if those coaches are moving up?
And, what happens when the NCAA realizes what a disaster the open transfer thing is, and reverses?
The whole system seems to be entirely unstable, and it's hard to see when or how stability will come.
Adbono can speak to this better but at least from what I've seen and heard from coaches at that level - juco schools are almost forced to develop. Kids will go to the ones that place their players the best/gets kids drafted. No players moving on to decent 4 year programs - Why would anybody come?
In my area there are a lot of kids reaching for D1 programs they probably don't belong at and as a result there are a lot of kids who end up at the right level down the road or find themselves out of baseball. They would benefit from a good juco where they would be significantly more prepared to contribute to the original program they committed to. But unfortunately the Jcs around here aren't known to place their players very well and it isn't very appealing.
As for the WWBA - 8 teams in every pool. Bottom 2 were usually below average but there isn't anywhere else we really could have went where we would have seen 85+ arms on a consistent basis. The playoffs at the WWBA are really fun, everybody is good and all the games are exciting. Played in all the big tournaments. Pretty cool seeing the field go from 400 to 64 to 32 to 16 and so on.
@anotherparent posted:To be honest, when we went to WWBA, we bought the koolaid that it was about playing against the best, we really didn't know how much it might matter for recruiting (which, in the end, it didn't for D3). I still don't think that was entirely wrong.
My question is, where are all the future D1 transfers supposed to go out of HS? Do they go to jucos, or to lower-level D1s, and then hope to transfer up? And, where are all the juco and lower-level D1 coaches recruiting? Just locally?
And this thread was about juco coaches going to D1s. But, if you are looking for development, how do you find good coaches at jucos or lower-level schools, if those coaches are moving up?
And, what happens when the NCAA realizes what a disaster the open transfer thing is, and reverses?
The whole system seems to be entirely unstable, and it's hard to see when or how stability will come.
Coaching Changes (NCAA, NAIA, NJCAA, CCCAA, NWC, NCCAA, USCAA)
in 2017 - 112
in 2018 - 101
in 2019 - 152
in 2020 - 211
in 2021 - 97
In 2022 - 204
In 2023 -68 to date
If I have time will break down by division.
From a research perspective, similar to your search for 4 yr schools, with the additional step of looking at their pipeline
JUCO Research example: Cowley
Where they recruit from (quickly search a couple of years to understand their patterns)
Pipeline by Position
If you want to find good coaches at juco level, then you need to look at the JUCO pipeline over the last 3 to 4 yrs.
There are patterns
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@anotherparent posted:To be honest, when we went to WWBA, we bought the koolaid that it was about playing against the best, we really didn't know how much it might matter for recruiting (which, in the end, it didn't for D3). I still don't think that was entirely wrong.
My question is, where are all the future D1 transfers supposed to go out of HS? Do they go to jucos, or to lower-level D1s, and then hope to transfer up? And, where are all the juco and lower-level D1 coaches recruiting? Just locally?
And this thread was about juco coaches going to D1s. But, if you are looking for development, how do you find good coaches at jucos or lower-level schools, if those coaches are moving up?
And, what happens when the NCAA realizes what a disaster the open transfer thing is, and reverses?
The whole system seems to be entirely unstable, and it's hard to see when or how stability will come.
Maybe the most accurate post you have ever made. Totally agree. Things are very unstable. And for HS players not much hope in sight. Very sad really.
Based on advice from this board, we realized my son would likely be a D3 prospect early on. Then his academics took off like we expected and are now targeting high academic D3 schools. Last summer out of eight tournaments not one of the schools he was interested in were in attendance. We decided this summer we’d focus on being where those coaches are which is mostly showcases. So as of now his summer travel team wants him to play in the WWBA and we will go, but they know if we have to cancel to go to a prospect camp then that is what we’re going to do. For us the WWBA is not about exposure or trying to lock up a spot on the roster, it’s more about all the things we experience on the road as a family. And of course Dave Poe’s BBQ.
@TerribleBPthrower posted:Based on advice from this board, we realized my son would likely be a D3 prospect early on. Then his academics took off like we expected and are now targeting high academic D3 schools. Last summer out of eight tournaments not one of the schools he was interested in were in attendance. We decided this summer we’d focus on being where those coaches are which is mostly showcases. So as of now his summer travel team wants him to play in the WWBA and we will go, but they know if we have to cancel to go to a prospect camp then that is what we’re going to do. For us the WWBA is not about exposure or trying to lock up a spot on the roster, it’s more about all the things we experience on the road as a family. And of course Dave Poe’s BBQ.
That is a well thought out and practical approach.
Since @PABaseball called me out I feel obligated to respond. I will preface everything I say that there are vast regional differences. In Texas there are many very good JuCo programs. And good players are at all of them. But some do a much better job of developing their players than others. That’s where you really need to do your homework. Most still do a good job of advancing their players. Especially if the players are realistic about their destination. Too many are still caught up in the D1 or bust mentality. When they could be very productive D2 players. But I have to disagree that JuCos aren’t moving their players on to good 4 year programs. At least in Texas they are.
@adbono posted:Since @PABaseball called me out I feel obligated to respond. I will preface everything I say that there are vast regional differences. In Texas there are many very good JuCo programs. And good players are at all of them. But some do a much better job of developing their players than others. That’s where you really need to do your homework. Most still do a good job of advancing their players. Especially if the players are realistic about their destination. Too many are still caught up in the D1 or bust mentality. When they could be very productive D2 players. But I have to disagree that JuCos aren’t moving their players on to good 4 year programs. At least in Texas they are.
The ones in my area are not which I believe I mentioned. It's unfortunate because as you've mentioned, it's not that the kids can't play in the programs they're committing to. It's that they can't play right now, need a year or two.
Programs near me just can't get those tweeners or late bloomers to come because they don't have a very good history of getting guys into desirable programs.
@adbono posted:Since @PABaseball called me out I feel obligated to respond. I will preface everything I say that there are vast regional differences. In Texas there are many very good JuCo programs. And good players are at all of them. But some do a much better job of developing their players than others. That’s where you really need to do your homework. Most still do a good job of advancing their players. Especially if the players are realistic about their destination. Too many are still caught up in the D1 or bust mentality. When they could be very productive D2 players. But I have to disagree that JuCos aren’t moving their players on to good 4 year programs. At least in Texas they are.
My 2015-2016 juco parent experience is a little outdated and pre transfer-portal/covid debacle (thankfully) however I think my observations are still mostly reinvent.
There will be 50 plus kids tying for 30 slots at the start of the school year, if you don’t have a scholarship before the first day, it’s highly unlikely you will get a spot (although there are a few exceptions every year). The coaches are going to put the best players on the field for most of the innings. Lesser players (like my son his freshman year) will get some filler work (my son played 11 innings his first year). If you or your kid complains about it, it will only get much worse…
There will always be some politics it’s human nature, kids can lose opportunities to play and to be recommended if they won’t conform to the coach’s program. The coaches are typically old school – It’s the same as real life, if your boss doesn’t like you, your screwed…
If your numbers are good, or you project you will be highly visible at the D1 and pro levels. My son threw only 11 innings as a freshman with an ERA above 6 but I can now find scout video of him that year on the web – I was at every game and had no clue.
During my two seasons as a juco parent at Hill College in Texas, every kid that was good enough to play at the next level was placed correctly. The kids with pro scout interest went P5 D1, the very talented kids that didn’t project went to non P5 D1’s and everyone else went D2. Out of the 2 seasons I watched, 3 kids were eventually drafted and I think that’s typical unless you’re at San Jac or McLennan in Texas.
It's a great option for kids with a baseball first mentality or who'd like to get half their education without being in debt. They've got to love the grind, or they won't last - If they do run the gauntlet, they'll have a bunch of lifelong brothers.
Well said @JucoDad. You described the JuCo experience perfectly. There are a few things that have changed a bit IMO. It’s not as easy to advance now as it was then. The differences are that fewer advance to D1 P5, fewer advance to D1 overall, more advance to D2, and fewer get drafted (due to draft being reduced from 40 to 20 rounds). The overall level of play is also up a tick since 2019 as more players have stayed for a third year and more freshmen have been bounced down from D1/D2 programs. With extra years of Covid eligibility the average age of a JuCo player has gone up. Players are more mature and more physical than they were in 2015-2016 and many programs are bringing in more like 80 kids in the fall to fight for 40 spots. Odds still heavily favor those on money in the programs that are fully funded. But many are not. At those programs it’s a lot more wide open and who is & who is not on money is not as significant. The best player will be on the field in the end regardless of scholarship standing. These are the only differences since your son played. All else holds true.
@PABaseball posted:The ones in my area are not which I believe I mentioned. It's unfortunate because as you've mentioned, it's not that the kids can't play in the programs they're committing to. It's that they can't play right now, need a year or two.
Programs near me just can't get those tweeners or late bloomers to come because they don't have a very good history of getting guys into desirable programs.
Fellas, you are both spot on, we've been doing a strategic campaigns on Twitter "JUCO of the Day" to get the word out
PA is very light, D2 and D3
Note, I don't know if they are strategically aligning with the messaging from PSAC, it would seem to a wise path, as for PSAC (West Chester, Millersville, Seton Hill, etc) are always very competitive in NCAA-D2 College world series
Most successful is Lackawanna
Then Northampton
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I have seen Lackawanna at the D2 JuCo World Series. While they are very good in their region, they don’t compete well against regional winners from Oklahoma, Louisiana, Arizona, Mississippi, Florida, and Illinois. An outlier program is Madison WI. They have been consistently good over the past 5 years.
@adbono posted:I have seen Lackawanna at the D2 JuCo World Series. While they are very good in their region, they don’t compete well against regional winners from Oklahoma, Louisiana, Arizona, Mississippi, Florida, and Illinois. An outlier program is Madison WI. They have been consistently good over the past 5 years.
Agree.
Mercer County (NJ) who also plays in Region19, has better results.
They pull from a broader scope of players (South Jersey and Central). Plus they are a close to NJCAA-D3 Schools (Gloucester County College aka (Rowan SJ) and Cumberland)
Also, for the last couple of years, the 6 group of NJ HS State Championships are held within a close vicinity.
I have a recruiting story about Harford, Mercer County and Lackawanna, but that is for another day.
@baseballhs posted:The success of Schlossnagle with the portal in one year will only make this worse. Really makes me sick. Might as well be another pro league. And if you can get drafted out of hs, go!
The transfer portal is just another element that makes college baseball more of a business model than an amateur sport. Exactly what MLB wants. They want college baseball turned into milb w/o MLB having to fund it. I have my suspicions that the extra years of Covid eligibility and the reduction of the MLB draft was a coordinated effort between MLB and the NCAA. If so the consequences we are seeing now were not unintended at all.
Adbono;
when will the MLB "demand" that the Colleges use wood bats?
Bob
@Consultant posted:Adbono;
when will the MLB "demand" that the Colleges use wood bats?
Bob
Good question Bob. I’m sure they would like to do that. However there would be heavy resistance from the manufacturers of metal bats. And those are big companies that have a lot of power and influence. Each metal bat costs 3x to 4x compared to wood. That’s an awful lot of money at stake. Not to mention the sunk cost in the technology to make metal bats. So I don’t see it happening.
@Consultant posted:Adbono
question, why have the qualified JC Coaches not entered the rank of Division one? Mitch Assisted in our Area Code tryouts at Baylor. He was a true Professional.
He appreciated my need for “time management”Bob
Interestingly we are seeing a wave of that right now.
@JucoDad posted:My 2015-2016 juco parent experience is a little outdated and pre transfer-portal/covid debacle (thankfully) however I think my observations are still mostly reinvent.
There will be 50 plus kids tying for 30 slots at the start of the school year, if you don’t have a scholarship before the first day, it’s highly unlikely you will get a spot (although there are a few exceptions every year). The coaches are going to put the best players on the field for most of the innings. Lesser players (like my son his freshman year) will get some filler work (my son played 11 innings his first year). If you or your kid complains about it, it will only get much worse…
There will always be some politics it’s human nature, kids can lose opportunities to play and to be recommended if they won’t conform to the coach’s program. The coaches are typically old school – It’s the same as real life, if your boss doesn’t like you, your screwed…
If your numbers are good, or you project you will be highly visible at the D1 and pro levels. My son threw only 11 innings as a freshman with an ERA above 6 but I can now find scout video of him that year on the web – I was at every game and had no clue.
During my two seasons as a juco parent at Hill College in Texas, every kid that was good enough to play at the next level was placed correctly. The kids with pro scout interest went P5 D1, the very talented kids that didn’t project went to non P5 D1’s and everyone else went D2. Out of the 2 seasons I watched, 3 kids were eventually drafted and I think that’s typical unless you’re at San Jac or McLennan in Texas.
It's a great option for kids with a baseball first mentality or who'd like to get half their education without being in debt. They've got to love the grind, or they won't last - If they do run the gauntlet, they'll have a bunch of lifelong brothers.
This is exactly what I was talking about before. There are so many kids who believe they are DI players or maybe don't have the grades to get them in a 4-year school and are "advised" to go JUCO only to find out they are NOT DI players, never (or hardly ever) get any playing time because they are surrounded by better players and then are done with their 2 years with no options to play anywhere. It used to be that kids who were more like DII or DIII players could go JUCO, develop and get stronger, and have a chance at a DI school or a stronger DII, but this has changed dramatically. Kids leaving P5's, going JUCO for a year and then transferring are taking more and more of those roster spots as well. I totally get, as it has been said here multiple times, that this varies from regions and different parts of the country, but I am just talking about what I have seen in the upper midwest and the personal experience from kids up here. We only have a few "strong" JUCO's up here so every kid from this area goes to the 1-2 strong ones that are close to home which creates even more competition and those borderline DI/DII kids are not hardly ever seeing the field for playing time.
JUCO is not the JUCO it was years ago.
@adbono posted:The transfer portal is just another element that makes college baseball more of a business model than an amateur sport. Exactly what MLB wants. They want college baseball turned into milb w/o MLB having to fund it. I have my suspicions that the extra years of Covid eligibility and the reduction of the MLB draft was a coordinated effort between MLB and the NCAA. If so the consequences we are seeing now were not unintended at all.
IMHO, these were mutual independent actions, whereas each party is looking out for their best interests, with certain overlaps.
Eligibility was a no-brainer, should a player lose their eligibility if they are not able to play? You can't say, a player used up a year when they didn't play a full year.
Note, due to weather conditions and population density, some areas were impacted earlier than others. This is the price for starting college baseball in February
So in 2020/21 do you have a policy where players south of the mason dixon would have exhausted their eligibility because they could have played vs the northeast/midwest / California that had total shutdown.
Understanding this was debatable, I tend not to do monday morning quarterbacking on the governing bodies decision.
Yeah HS Families can complain, oh it not fair. Life is not fair, Get in the Lab, the world has changed
btw, you've done your own gaming, e.g. 8th grade reclassification, post grad schools. whatever process you acted upon to create a better situation for your player.
Whereas the MLB, IMHO was pure leverage of greed between (mlb and mlbpa)
- elimination of 40 minor leagues teams (were these team profitable?)
- Draft from 40 to 5 (2020), 20 rounds in 2021 free agency capped at 20k? I think it might be 25k.
- Creation of MLB summer league, thus impacting talent distribution to the top leagues
- What will be the long term impact to the top leagues, e.g Cape Code
Here is my basic question,
Should a player be able to transfer freely? Should there be penalties, ie. you must sit out.
If I work for a company, and move to another company, I'm I required to sit out 1 year?
What I find interesting, for the most part the United States is governed by free market principles, but collegiate athletics wants a model consistent with Indentured Servitude.
This seems unconstitutional, but a carve out to control individual rights.
Help me understand
I'm just a humble D3 parent, where things seem more purely what the NCAA's ideal is: you are a student who plays baseball. You are doing two things at once: practicing/playing baseball, and taking classes. It's not easy. Some players focus more on baseball, some on classes, it shows in the performance of each. You are playing because you love it, not because you are getting money.
In theory this is how it is supposed to be at all levels, the difference being that you are playing for scholarship money so you can be a student and play baseball. Everyone knows that is not the case, but it's the ideal. Changing the NIL rule at the same time as shortening the draft and changing the transfer rule - was it coincidence, due to covid? Must have been, because the NIL rule and covid/transfer is for all sports, the draft just impacted baseball. Clearly, though, the convergence of those 3 things gave MLB the idea that they can now rely on college baseball to be a minor league.
Watching summer league baseball makes me realize the huge difference between playing baseball while taking classes, and playing baseball when all you have to do is focus on baseball. Even MLB is not going to get the NCAA to do away with the requirement that student-athletes be students too, regardless of how much of a joke some of the "classes" must be.
The sit-out rule was to discourage transfers, and to encourage players to actually get their degrees. It's not like business and changing jobs. If you change jobs voluntarily, you presumably don't go backward the way you do if you transfer schools.
So, indentured servitude - yes, in the money sports it is. Baseball is not money-making at the vast majority of schools. That's why the NIL is corrupt. If they had made it so that popular players could be in advertisements or selling autographs or jerseys, or making money from social media, that would be fine. Setting it up so rich alumni can "pay" them is just rotten. Maybe it gets away from the taint of everyone making money except the athletes, but that doesn't make it better.
@anotherparent posted:I'm just a humble D3 parent, where things seem more purely what the NCAA's ideal is: you are a student who plays baseball. You are doing two things at once: practicing/playing baseball, and taking classes. It's not easy. Some players focus more on baseball, some on classes, it shows in the performance of each. You are playing because you love it, not because you are getting money.
In theory this is how it is supposed to be at all levels, the difference being that you are playing for scholarship money so you can be a student and play baseball. Everyone knows that is not the case, but it's the ideal. Changing the NLI rule at the same time as shortening the draft and changing the transfer rule - was it coincidence, due to covid? Must have been, because the NLI rule and covid/transfer is for all sports, the draft just impacted baseball. Clearly, though, the convergence of those 3 things gave MLB the idea that they can now rely on college baseball to be a minor league.
Watching summer league baseball makes me realize the huge difference between playing baseball while taking classes, and playing baseball when all you have to do is focus on baseball. Even MLB is not going to get the NCAA to do away with the requirement that student-athletes be students too, regardless of how much of a joke some of the "classes" must be.
The sit-out rule was to discourage transfers, and to encourage players to actually get their degrees. It's not like business and changing jobs. If you change jobs voluntarily, you presumably don't go backward the way you do if you transfer schools.
So, indentured servitude - yes, in the money sports it is. Baseball is not money-making at the vast majority of schools. That's why the NLI is corrupt. If they had made it so that popular players could be in advertisements or selling autographs or jerseys, or making money from social media, that would be fine. Setting it up so rich alumni can "pay" them is just rotten. Maybe it gets away from the taint of everyone making money except the athletes, but that doesn't make it better.
I agree with most, we've never lived in an ideal world. Money and Collegiate sports (especially football and basketball) has always been the game, e.g Lloyd Daniels (UNLV from queens) read at 4th grade level.
John Wooden looked away as players were getting payments
Transfer penalties had nothing to do with getting a degree, some might think it did.
Indenture Servitude has nothing to do with how much money a school makes, it is about controlling an individual's ability to move freely without penalties.
As for NLI being corrupt with respect to donors funneling money, even if the NCAA were to implement those restrictions, the United States Supreme Court would strike it down.
@anotherparent - I agree with you 100%!!!
College sports has sure changed since 1852 when some Harvards guys told Yale guys they could row faster.
My grandfather graduated from college in 1892. College sports were so demanding he played three … football, indoor track, baseball.
I found a letter addressed to him from the captain of the football team. We have a game in two weeks. It’s one week after we return to campus. Cut back on smoking and run a mile each night for the next week before returning to campus.
@adbono posted:Good question Bob. I’m sure they would like to do that. However there would be heavy resistance from the manufacturers of metal bats. And those are big companies that have a lot of power and influence. Each metal bat costs 3x to 4x compared to wood. That’s an awful lot of money at stake. Not to mention the sunk cost in the technology to make metal bats. So I don’t see it happening.
It really just comes down to bat makers are willing to pay NCAA programs to use their metal bats but wouldn't be willing to do that for wood bats. NCAA programs using their metal bats is advertising to the much larger population of players at the lower levels of amateur baseball who are paying full retail for metal bats.
But by the back of the napkin math, MLB could fully equip P5 teams with wood bats for less than $5 million/year, so not very much at MLB scale. And MLB owns Rawlings/Easton so could get them on board if needed.
Your cost estimate is not correct. When I created the Area Code games in 1986, I insisted on wood bats for all players. When a player purchases his personal wood bat, he will treat it like his glove. He will Learn the art of hitting.
“Metal bats allow for false impressions”. Scouts deduct 40’ on HR.
Bob
@anotherparent posted:I'm just a humble D3 parent, where things seem more purely what the NCAA's ideal is: you are a student who plays baseball. You are doing two things at once: practicing/playing baseball, and taking classes. It's not easy. Some players focus more on baseball, some on classes, it shows in the performance of each. You are playing because you love it, not because you are getting money.
In theory this is how it is supposed to be at all levels, the difference being that you are playing for scholarship money so you can be a student and play baseball. Everyone knows that is not the case, but it's the ideal. Changing the NLI rule at the same time as shortening the draft and changing the transfer rule - was it coincidence, due to covid? Must have been, because the NLI rule and covid/transfer is for all sports, the draft just impacted baseball. Clearly, though, the convergence of those 3 things gave MLB the idea that they can now rely on college baseball to be a minor league.
Watching summer league baseball makes me realize the huge difference between playing baseball while taking classes, and playing baseball when all you have to do is focus on baseball. Even MLB is not going to get the NCAA to do away with the requirement that student-athletes be students too, regardless of how much of a joke some of the "classes" must be.
The sit-out rule was to discourage transfers, and to encourage players to actually get their degrees. It's not like business and changing jobs. If you change jobs voluntarily, you presumably don't go backward the way you do if you transfer schools.
So, indentured servitude - yes, in the money sports it is. Baseball is not money-making at the vast majority of schools. That's why the NLI is corrupt. If they had made it so that popular players could be in advertisements or selling autographs or jerseys, or making money from social media, that would be fine. Setting it up so rich alumni can "pay" them is just rotten. Maybe it gets away from the taint of everyone making money except the athletes, but that doesn't make it better.
Seems the Supreme court ruled 9-0
"Kavanaugh attacked the circular nature of the NCAA’s argument that athletes’ not being paid is a defining feature of college sports and drew stark analogies to how preposterous the NCAA’s business model would look in other industries: highly violative of antitrust law. Here is one of his many savaging remarks: “Nowhere else in America can businesses get away with agreeing not to pay their workers a fair market rate on the theory that their product is defined by not paying their workers a fair market rate. … The NCAA is not above the law."
@CollegebaseballInsights posted:Seems the Supreme court ruled 9-0
"Kavanaugh attacked the circular nature of the NCAA’s argument that athletes’ not being paid is a defining feature of college sports and drew stark analogies to how preposterous the NCAA’s business model would look in other industries: highly violative of antitrust law. Here is one of his many savaging remarks: “Nowhere else in America can businesses get away with agreeing not to pay their workers a fair market rate on the theory that their product is defined by not paying their workers a fair market rate. … The NCAA is not above the law."
Here is the next case schedule Sept 2024, which will potentially have deeper ramifications than NLI
House v. NCAA