Kids from the age of 11, 12 are on steroids... Trainers who can’t afford the good stuff giving horse steroids to kids. It’s a dirty business...

It's pathetic really. My son's hitting coach is Dominican and played D1 ball (never drafted), so we've heard a few stories. There're some amazingly talented young players who are used/abused (including potential health issues) by the "buscones" all in the interest of making a buck at the kids' expense. Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of being compensated fairly for (value-added) services provided, but the current Dominican system seems rife with exploitation.

Say what you will about Boras, and he's undoubtedly self-serving, but his suggestions could go a ways to eliminating some of the issues. But human nature being what it is, and with the livelihood of buscones challenged, even with Boras's dream list of suggestions I'm sure they'd find a way to grind money out of and abuse young, eager players.

At the end of the day the MLB is a business. The dollars cascade downward from the top and continuation of the current systems depends on whether ethics/morals will dominate over the MLB bottom lines. I have my reservations it's all about putting the best product out on the field and the Dominicans (along with other Latin players) bring excitement to the game.

trchala posted:

It's pathetic really. My son's hitting coach is Dominican and played D1 ball (never drafted), so we've heard a few stories. There're some amazingly talented young players who are used/abused (including potential health issues) by the "buscones" all in the interest of making a buck at the kids' expense. Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of being compensated fairly for (value-added) services provided, but the current Dominican system seems rife with exploitation.

Say what you will about Boras, and he's undoubtedly self-serving, but his suggestions could go a ways to eliminating some of the issues. But human nature being what it is, and with the livelihood of buscones challenged, even with Boras's dream list of suggestions I'm sure they'd find a way to grind money out of and abuse young, eager players.

At the end of the day the MLB is a business. The dollars cascade downward from the top and continuation of the current systems depends on whether ethics/morals will dominate over the MLB bottom lines. I have my reservations it's all about putting the best product out on the field and the Dominicans (along with other Latin players) bring excitement to the game.

Yes. They bring superhuman excitement to the game, (sarcasm).  Probably because of the PED use. I wish there was a way to purify the game. At this point, I am more amazed watching high level college ball. So sad

Athletes are being exploited!  When did this start?

NCAA is horrid.  Professional sports are meat grinders so it does make one consider the emphasis placed on sports.

If I was raising kids again - I'd send them to robot camp and have them dabble in golf and tennis.... AKA Country Club sports for the long term contacts they might provide.  I would not allow them to risk their bodies playing competitive sports - short of college scholarship or professional sports which represent a few percent meaning there is higher risk than upside offered.  

Spare me the life lessons, teamwork and competing nonsense.  The kids in the band learn the same things as the football team on those things.  Everything in life is a competition so you don't need sports to find things to compete in.  Sports does not teach or afford better opportunities than other activities for exposure to these life lessons.

If you've ever had to listen to someone tell you how great they were back in '75 I would tell you that is proof that sports may actually stunt personal development when the realization that you are not the next Babe Ruth kicks in and you never get past it.  Glory Days syndrome is one of the most pitiful things there is.  Never met a kid from the band at a bar wearing anyone out telling you about that time they played American Pie at Homecoming half time like Don McLean.  I suffered through more stories of heroism in lost district playoff games than I can shake a sick at though.

luv baseball posted:

Athletes are being exploited!  When did this start?

NCAA is horrid.  Professional sports are meat grinders so it does make one consider the emphasis placed on sports.

If I was raising kids again - I'd send them to robot camp and have them dabble in golf and tennis.... AKA Country Club sports for the long term contacts they might provide.  I would not allow them to risk their bodies playing competitive sports - short of college scholarship or professional sports which represent a few percent meaning there is higher risk than upside offered.  

Spare me the life lessons, teamwork and competing nonsense.  The kids in the band learn the same things as the football team on those things.  Everything in life is a competition so you don't need sports to find things to compete in.  Sports does not teach or afford better opportunities than other activities for exposure to these life lessons.

If you've ever had to listen to someone tell you how great they were back in '75 I would tell you that is proof that sports may actually stunt personal development when the realization that you are not the next Babe Ruth kicks in and you never get past it.  Glory Days syndrome is one of the most pitiful things there is.  Never met a kid from the band at a bar wearing anyone out telling you about that time they played American Pie at Homecoming half time like Don McLean.  I suffered through more stories of heroism in lost district playoff games than I can shake a sick at though.

I have a different opinion on some of your points, Luv.

First, I have heard plenty of horror stories about tennis and golf, too.  And they are both even more slanted toward being money sports than baseball, so the efforts to influence by buying your kid's way up (and the pressure to do so) are at least equally present.  There are documentaries on both and I think it makes baseball pale in comparison at times.

Regarding this... "Spare me the life lessons, teamwork and competing nonsense.  The kids in the band learn the same things as the football team on those things.  Everything in life is a competition so you don't need sports to find things to compete in.  Sports does not teach or afford better opportunities than other activities for exposure to these life lessons."

Again, I disagree.  Yes, most everything in life is a competition.  But with most things, once you win the competition, your position is relatively safe unless you really screw up or decide to move on (get the job, marry the girl, buy the house, etc.  With team sports (I'm thinking college level), you win the job one day and you have to start all over the next day.  It's performance evaluation on steroids.  Your boss' primary job is to find someone better than you to replace you... daily and year to year.  That's quite different than most things in life.  And you darn well better figure out how to be a good teammate or you likely won't keep your job and you almost assuredly won't be very successful.  Few college students pull double or triple duty to get through college successfully like student athletes.  (Yeah, yeah, I  know... some don't exactly take the most difficult majors).  All must successfully navigate a full academic load plus the full time job of college athlete and do so maintaining a diet/sleep/exercise regimen enough to compete within their sport.  And these days, most better be putting in a heck of a lot of extra work during HS years just to be able to compete for a college roster spot.  I'm not keenly in tune to the marching band scene but I don't hear too many stories of them getting released from scholarship because they weren't outperforming the drummer next to them.

The things college teammates go through together are typically far more challenging and much more likely to form life-long bonds than the things average college buddies go through.  And the team sports aspect tightens that bond more so than the sports that are more individual in nature like tennis (except doubles) and golf. 

 Successfully navigating college team sports certainly goes a long way toward preparing an individual for most other future life endeavors.  Can it be done other ways?  Absolutely.  Is it "nonsense"?  Absolutely not.

Many corporations in a variety of industries target college athletes specifically because they know they will compete, can handle adverse conditions and will bring it every day.

 

Cabbage,  

My point about the Golf and Tennis was to "dabble"  meaning not to make the effort to be Tiger Woods but rather to learn and play enough to be proficient....i.e. a 10 handicap rather than scratch.  The point being that later in life they could use it as a tool for social interaction.  But you are correct that like team sports if you go all in - the result isn't much different.

My other point was not that sports do not offer the teamwork/competitive aspect … but rather the notion that somehow they are either the only way or even the preferable way for kids to experience those lessons.  

You do go on to talk about college sports at length so even if I stipulate to your argument regarding college sports it wins my argument in spades.  For baseball the number of HS players that play in college is 7.1% for the 2016/17 year based on NCAA stats.  If you cut at DI it is 2.1%.  Thus sports are a total loser activity if college is the goal.  All of that time and energy would be better spent with books once college is the objective.

So put those together and you return to the premise...Are sports better or even preferable activities in the long term?  Are they the most beneficial ways for youngsters to spend significant time and energy?  

My conclusion is that if I had to do it again that there is a very strong argument that the answer is no.  There tons of activities that will have lifetime benefits and teach the same lessons as sports without the physical risks.  I would not argue that sports have no value - but I am quite confident that their value is overrated.  This string starts with 12 year olds on steroids....if that does not perfectly frame the value of sports being overrated I cannot conceive of something that does.

It's sad , like a lot of things that happen in foreign countries. Who ever said the MLB was ethical?

Having gone through the draft process this season and getting more knowledge of the business and what goes on behind the scenes I am glad 2018 went to school .   Don't get me wrong their are awesome people in the business 

BUT 

There's a reason the teams treat the Minor Leagues like crap and the MLB players have a union.  

Bottom line, get there if you can , play as long as you can, team and record do not matter so much. Save as much money as you can and bail out when you want ....  

the old saying... all the glitters

luv baseball posted:

Cabbage,  

My point about the Golf and Tennis was to "dabble"  meaning not to make the effort to be Tiger Woods but rather to learn and play enough to be proficient....i.e. a 10 handicap rather than scratch.  The point being that later in life they could use it as a tool for social interaction.  But you are correct that like team sports if you go all in - the result isn't much different.

My other point was not that sports do not offer the teamwork/competitive aspect … but rather the notion that somehow they are either the only way or even the preferable way for kids to experience those lessons.  

You do go on to talk about college sports at length so even if I stipulate to your argument regarding college sports it wins my argument in spades.  For baseball the number of HS players that play in college is 7.1% for the 2016/17 year based on NCAA stats.  If you cut at DI it is 2.1%.  Thus sports are a total loser activity if college is the goal.  All of that time and energy would be better spent with books once college is the objective.

So put those together and you return to the premise...Are sports better or even preferable activities in the long term?  Are they the most beneficial ways for youngsters to spend significant time and energy?  

My conclusion is that if I had to do it again that there is a very strong argument that the answer is no.  There tons of activities that will have lifetime benefits and teach the same lessons as sports without the physical risks.  I would not argue that sports have no value - but I am quite confident that their value is overrated.  This string starts with 12 year olds on steroids....if that does not perfectly frame the value of sports being overrated I cannot conceive of something that does.

First point taken... my personality doesn't really allow for my mind to be open to the notion of "dabble" so I had to let that set in.

I also agree that it is often misplaced priorities when sports are looked at as a means to an end regarding college.  But I think most folks have better perspective than that.  I will note, however, that one of my kids finished college largely because of sports.  Not sure if there was enough interest otherwise to go that route.  I realize there is a "chicken or the egg" argument to be made there.

As far as this... "There tons of activities that will have lifetime benefits and teach the same lessons as sports without the physical risks."  Personally, I just couldn't imagine a life without activities that present physical risks.  For most people I know, those moments are some of the most memorable of their lives.... some of the moments they consider "really being alive".  This is not to downplay the more important moments of life like achievement, service, new life, new commitment, etc.

Getting back to the OP (somewhat), I am totally not buying 12 yr olds on steroids in poor foreign countries as a correlation to sports being overrated.  When desperate people see an opportunity as a way out, they will take desperate measures.  It is not necessarily a poor reflection of the tools or vehicle used.  Do you think boats are overrated?  

cabbagedad posted:
luv baseball posted:

Cabbage,  

My point about the Golf and Tennis was to "dabble"  meaning not to make the effort to be Tiger Woods but rather to learn and play enough to be proficient....i.e. a 10 handicap rather than scratch.  The point being that later in life they could use it as a tool for social interaction.  But you are correct that like team sports if you go all in - the result isn't much different.

My other point was not that sports do not offer the teamwork/competitive aspect … but rather the notion that somehow they are either the only way or even the preferable way for kids to experience those lessons.  

You do go on to talk about college sports at length so even if I stipulate to your argument regarding college sports it wins my argument in spades.  For baseball the number of HS players that play in college is 7.1% for the 2016/17 year based on NCAA stats.  If you cut at DI it is 2.1%.  Thus sports are a total loser activity if college is the goal.  All of that time and energy would be better spent with books once college is the objective.

So put those together and you return to the premise...Are sports better or even preferable activities in the long term?  Are they the most beneficial ways for youngsters to spend significant time and energy?  

My conclusion is that if I had to do it again that there is a very strong argument that the answer is no.  There tons of activities that will have lifetime benefits and teach the same lessons as sports without the physical risks.  I would not argue that sports have no value - but I am quite confident that their value is overrated.  This string starts with 12 year olds on steroids....if that does not perfectly frame the value of sports being overrated I cannot conceive of something that does.

First point taken... my personality doesn't really allow for my mind to be open to the notion of "dabble" so I had to let that set in.

I also agree that it is often misplaced priorities when sports are looked at as a means to an end regarding college.  But I think most folks have better perspective than that.  I will note, however, that one of my kids finished college largely because of sports.  Not sure if there was enough interest otherwise to go that route.  I realize there is a "chicken or the egg" argument to be made there.

As far as this... "There tons of activities that will have lifetime benefits and teach the same lessons as sports without the physical risks."  Personally, I just couldn't imagine a life without activities that present physical risks.  For most people I know, those moments are some of the most memorable of their lives.... some of the moments they consider "really being alive".  This is not to downplay the more important moments of life like achievement, service, new life, new commitment, etc.

Getting back to the OP (somewhat), I am totally not buying 12 yr olds on steroids in poor foreign countries as a correlation to sports being overrated.  When desperate people see an opportunity as a way out, they will take desperate measures.  It is not necessarily a poor reflection of the tools or vehicle used.  Do you think boats are overrated?  

I had a similar thought.  The steroid thing in a poor country is not the comparable to what is happening in America.  I don't many are giving their kids steroids at 12 years old, although, I wouldn't past some crazy parents.

 

Having already raised my five children and looking back I think kids that have arm, shoulder, back and knee injures as teens and pre teens that they will walk around with for 75 or 80 years is something that must be considered in a true cost/benefit fashion.  That Tommy John scar is a great look I suppose.

I did make the connection that parents are willing to do stupid things for sports everywhere.  It is always one of the top 4 topics on this site - including this string.

I do recognize that there are folks out there that feel that rush of physical danger as a way of letting you know you are alive.  I used to feel the same way about alcohol in social settings.  No one could be the life of the party like I could.  For 30 years I was the straw that stirred the drink.  Stopped 10 years ago - turns out I can still be the life of the party but I will probably live 20 less years. 

So not worth it and it has altered my view of the value of many things that used to seem so important.  

Best part of this site (especially these days) - differing opinions - respectfully submitted - all good.

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