Ks/PA

What level are you talking about, and are you talking about a hitter or a pitcher?

OOPS! It just dawned on me what forum this is in! I don’t think anyone can really give a good number for what you’re asking because of all the possible differences in leagues, teams, etc.. But maybe this will help you. The following link shows my school’s numbers for the last 2 spring HSV seasons combined. The school is in Ca, is in the largest school category, has only been playing V ball for 2 years, but has made the playoffs twice, and last year got to the finals.

As you can see, I did the K’s per AB and PA for the hitters, and for pitchers it would of course be batters per K. Hope it helps.

http://infosports.net/scorekeeper/images/4catch.pdf

I'd say that levels vary based on position, style of hitter and program. Free swingers who put the ball out of the park get a little more swing and miss tolerance.

A very good contact hitter (typical of MIF and CF) will have K/AB of under 20%. A good contact hitter can still be under 25%.

A corner position power guy with very good contact may be in the 22-25% range, with a good power guy still ranging in to the low 30%.

Boyds World has a pretty good data base of all D1 schools for a number of years. You can look up all stats for teams or individual players.

http://www.boydsworld.com/data/hitters.html

Actually, strike out totals should be much lower than this. Anything over 20% is not good, that hitter had better be putting up serious power numbers.

In MLB, the average is currently 17/100 ab, and about 15/100 plate appearances. Thirty years ago, the numbers were lower, about 14/100 ab and 12/100 pa.

I coached at the college level and the numbers were roughly the same. A "contact" hitter should strike out no more than 15% of the time. Again, anything over 20% can be a liabilty unless there are power numbers behind it...

Level, you're kidding, right?

I listed Boyd's World as a reference, but I follow hundreds of kids for various reasons.

Go to 2008 and start with the elite hitters. Buster Posey led the nation in hitting and is a freak. He was 11.3%. But, most of the elite hitters are 15-20%. These are the 53 guys who hit above .400. We are talking top draft choices in that group.

The majority of good college hitters in the low to mid .300s are over 20%.

Here's a link to all D1 school web sites. Scroll down and pick schools, and check the stat pages. You'll see something other than what you think.

http://www.ncaa-baseball.com/div1master.htm

For the top hitters in MLB, Level has it about right. Pretty much all the top contact hitters (looking at the lifetime batting average list for currently active players) have K/PA ratios of around 10%.

The exceptions are the power hitters who also hit for average, but they aren't that much higher.

Here are K/PA for the top 8 currently active lifetime BA. The list I am using lists AB, and doesn't have the number of plate appearances, so I just added the number of BB/IBB to the AB's estimate it.

Ichiro: 461/5218 - 8.8%
Helton: 760/6805 - 11.1%
Pujols: 452/4766 - 9.5%
Guerrero: 736/6914 - 10.6
Jeter: 1219/8219 - 14.8% (A whiff machine given modest power)
Garciaparra: 515/5694 - 9.0%
Manny: 1543/8311 - 18.6% (Whiffs a lot, but way more power than Jeter)
Ordonez: 632/5816 - 10.9%

Granted, these are the best hitters in baseball, so I guess it makes sense they wouldn't strike out a ton. But there are 100 guys (all time, not currently active) with career K/AB% of 6% or below.

So, to answer the question what is a "good" K/PA percentage? Looks to me like around 10% is very good, at least in MLB.

quote:

at least in MLB.

..and some are HOF'ers-to-be.

Which isn't relevent to most of our sons when looking for a measuring stick with which to compare their progress.

Again, most of our kids are HS or college.

For the college kids, look at the links and compare.

15% is the very few elite.

But, if you're too lazy to look...I'll concede it's not worth discussing with you.

As a strong contact hitter, I was less than 10% K/PA for a 4A high school in texas. 449 avg.

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Originally posted by wayback:

quote:

at least in MLB.

..and some are HOF'ers-to-be.

Which isn't relevent to most of our sons when looking for a measuring stick with which to compare their progress.

Again, most of our kids are HS or college.

For the college kids, look at the links and compare.

15% is the very few elite.

But, if you're too lazy to look...I'll concede it's not worth discussing with you.

...not understanding the hostility from you...I was away all day, can't be glued to my computer, you know.

The easiest way to understand this is to look at the national average of D1. I couldn't find it (too lazy, you know) , so I pulled up Big East team stats from last year:


AB K K%
West Virginia....... 1921 322 .167
Louisville.......... 2218 358 .161

Cincinnati.......... 2089 353 .168
Notre Dame.......... 1910 289 .151
St. John's.......... 1987 317 .159
USF................. 2009 387 .192
Pittsburgh.......... 1817 365 .201
Connecticut......... 1956 360 .184

Georgetown.......... 1750 363 .207
Rutgers............. 1844 423 .229
Villanova........... 1938 365 .188
Seton Hall.......... 1813 320 .176

...As I had previously stated, not much different from MLB. Teams average around .18 k/Ab, so hitters above these numbers are below-average contact hitters, hitters below are above-average.
So 15% isn't the "very few elite", it's around average.

quote:

Originally posted by wayback:

Here's a link to all D1 school web sites. Scroll down and pick schools, and check the stat pages. You'll see something other than what you think.

http://www.ncaa-baseball.com/div1master.htm

I'm heavily versed in sabermetics. Quit condescending.

ACC 19.3%
Big12 19.6%
SEC 20.0%
Pac10 22.0%

To say anything over 20% is not good implies the top college leagues are full of "not good" players/teams.

Using your 10.0% mentioned above, there are 3 hitters inthe ACC in the top 55 under that figure.

SEC has none at 10.0%.
Pac10 has 3 at 10.0%.

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I'm heavily versed in sabermetics. Quit condescending.

lol

Hey wayback, at no point did I state that hitters who strike out a lot are not good hitters. You made that assumption. Believe it or not, there is very little correlation between amount of strike outs and offensive production.

The question was; what is a good rate of k's per pa. You offered stats that were off. I corrected them. The original question did not ask how many time elite hitters strike out, or bad hitters. If the national average is, say .185. then hitters that strike out more than that are below average CONTACT hitters. You made the assumption that I stated that good hitters don't strike out more than .20. Striking out more than .20 simply means that the batter stikes out more than average.

Look at those conference team stats again. Good offensive teams and bad offensive teams strike out at roughly the same rate. We can reason then that striking out has very little effect on offensive production. So good hitters can strike out at a .25 rate. Again, the original question was simply; what is a good rate of k's/pa? A hitter with a .25 can be all-american, but he does not have a good k/ab ratio.


And you were condescending. It sounds silly when you tell someone with every Bill James abstact to 'look further into the stats, you'll see something different'.

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Actually, strike out totals should be much lower than this. Anything over 20% is not good

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A "contact" hitter should strike out no more than 15% of the time.

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Looks to me like around 10% is very good

ACC: players with 100+ AB's:

Miami: under 10%=0, 10-15%=1, 15-20%=6, 20-25%=2, 25-30%=2

UNC: under 10%=2, 10-15%=2, 15-20%=3, 20-25%=2

FSU: under 10%=0, 10-15%=3, 15-20%=4, 20-25%=2, 25-30%=1

The biggest group between 15-20%. These are players on three of the top teams in the country with kids who get drafted in the top rounds. By your standard, only 8 of the 30 are good contact hitters. I'm saying they ALL are good contact hitters. Every one of them! Or they'd be playing in the Big East. lol

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You offered stats that were off. I corrected them.

.

No, you offered your opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by wayback:

A very good contact hitter (typical of MIF and CF) will have K/AB of under 20%. A good contact hitter can still be under 25%.
http://www.boydsworld.com/data/hitters.html

These stats are what you offered. They can not be considered correct. They were off.

Let's grade the ratios:

Under 10%: elite
10-15%: very good
15-20%: average
20-25%: below average
above 25%: poor

Good "contact" hitters can not be in the 20-25% range, they are over the average. They can still be good hitters, but not good contact hitters. Once again, we are rating the ability to strike out alone, not the hitter's overall effiency. Jack Cust is an productive MLB hitter and strikes out at more than a 40% rate.

Over 100 AB's:

Georgia: under 10%=0, 10-15%=2, 15-20%=5, 20-25%=1, 25-30%=1

LSU: under 10%=0, 10-15%=3, 15-20%=3, 20-25%=3, 25-30%=1

U Florida: under 10%=0, 10-15%=3, 15-20%=2, 20-25%=2, 25-30%=1.

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These stats are what you offered. They can not be considered correct. They were off.

Let's grade the ratios:

Under 10%: elite
10-15%: very good
15-20%: average
20-25%: below average
above 25%: poor

I'll agree with that (the portion of elite being thrown out there by me). That elite term was an overreaction to you calling 20% a liability. No way is that correct either.


annnnd, the college ranks are loaded with very good hitters with K/ratio's over 20% who are drafted in the first 15 rounds. I follow many more than I should probably spend time on. That is where I set my sights and base my comparisons. Bill James stuff may be very good (I've never read it, but obviously don't live under a rock to have never heard of it), but I'm looking at what kids get drafted and what the hitting portion of their tool-set looks like.

20%-25% is draftable. Good enough for me to say it's not a liability.

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Hey, what is a good ratio of K's per plate appearance?

And, that is the question. I guess the interpretation lies in "good".

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Good "contact" hitters can not be in the 20-25% range, they are over the average.

Who says over the average is not good? Where is the line for good or not good?

Good enough for what? To me: draftable. If they are draftable, they are good.

Wayback, Jr plays in the SoCon.

Using the Conference's top hitter : .438 batting average with 25% K/ratio. Drafted.

Good contact hitter?

quote:

Originally posted by wayback:
[QUOTE]
Who says over the average is not good? Where is the line for good or not good?

Good enough for what? To me: draftable. If they are draftable, they are good.

Of course they are good. But they are not good at making contact. They would be below average at this one specific skill. And, as I have stated many times, the ability to make contact has very little bearing on offensive production.

There are a million kids who are productive and strike out alot. I named one, Jack Cust.

You interpreted the questions as: How often do elite hitters strike out? And perhaps; can elite hitters strike out a alot?

I interpreted the question as: What are the average strike out rates for batters, regardless of the hitter's quality?

I'd relate the correlation to be about as strong as an NBA players free throw percentage. Good players can have poor percentages (Shaq). Below average players can have great percentages. There is not a strong correlation between the player's value and the perecentage, the percentage is simply one of the dozens of stats that you weigh when you conclude overall value.

Also, Elon (conference Champions # 7 in country in scoring):

under 10%=0, 10-15%=2, 15-20%=2, 20-25%=6, 25-30%=1



Coll of Charleston (led nation in scoring):

under 10%-0, 10-15%=0, 15-20%=5, 20-25%= 3, 25-30%=1



Elon had seven hitters over .300 including one over .400.

CoC led the nation in scoring with nine average/below average contact hitters, who managed to all hit over .300 despite what you label them.