LA TIMES - Playing in high school is no longer vital for college scholarship seekers

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Originally posted by shortnquick:

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Originally posted by justbaseball:
Just in case no one noticed, the originator of this thread appears to run the league that Tanner plays in.

And........So What...
He is probably proud of the product he is putting out, as he should be.

Well, let's start with he posts an article, PG apparently feels some posters are critical of the player(I didn't read it that way but can see the interpretation) and then he leaves the player hanging.
It isn't about the player, to me at least.
It is a much bigger discussion topic as Coach Savage of UCLA describes in the article.
It certainly does appear the OP might have "used" the player/article to start the topic...and leaves.
That might be a part of "So What!"

Well I read it as PG may have. Who is anyone to impose what they think a player should feel about playing HS baseball or not. Because you get a warm fuzzy feeling from HS baseball does not mean you should impose that feeling onto another. Why judge those who decide for what ever reason not to play HS baseball. So he started the topic and left, many posters do the same thing....So What...

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So What...

Just full disclosure. Owner of league may want to add fuel to his trend through use of high profile name (its all over league's website too...does the kid get anything for use of his name to promote league?...almost certainly not). OP may want to get more kids to jump onboard, help the league prosper?

Then again, maybe not? Maybe the OP is genuinely interested in how others feel about this because he/she wants to head in a direction that is for the best of all and he/she is not sure what that is? Maybe the OP is checking to see if others think its a good idea or not?

Knowing where a poster/thread-starter is coming from helps other posters to evaluate the relative value in the message for themselves.

Well, this is the HSBBW. Bob started it as the HSBBW.
The reasons are part of the site.
If others want to start a non-HSBBW site and post about all the great things of travel and elite baseball and the evils of HS baseball, step up.
But, on the new "So What," I am glad you asked.
This week I have followed a fair amount of the coverage of the NLI period for football. I have read articles with HS players being blasted in the press by college coaches making well into 7 figures.
Adults(college coaches) calling each other names, accusing each other of illegal to unethical..all in the name of 17-18 year olds, who just happen to have their names dragged into the mud.
This isn't a situation where the player or the parents posted the article. This is an adult who happens to have a hugely talented player in his league.
As PG posted, the league isn't what created the exposure for the scholarship, but the impression is otherwise from the article/OP.
How is the OP different from other adults "using vs introducing" a 17-18 year old into a discussion to argue some point they either cannot or won't argue on their own and which PG says does not prove their point.
I didn't say anything about this player and his feelings. The player didn't start this thread and I don't feel he should be "used" by adults to imply or argue any point.
Most posters to this site don't use a HS player, by name, to argue a point and then leave. That is the "So What." To learn from PG it was not this league, but a PG function which created the exposure to USD..well that is another "So What."
I am not saying that 17-18 year olds don't love the media/visibility and exposure. Heck, some clearly love it and the media feeds it.
I just believe it is time to back off using 17-18 year olds and 5-6 year olds for some adult to make or argue some personal bias or prejudice, especially when there is a business or "gain" behind the "point of view."
It does not seem right to me.

Nice post !!!

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Originally posted by infielddad:
Well, this is the HSBBW. Bob started it as the HSBBW.
The reasons are part of the site.
If others want to start a non-HSBBW site and post about all the great things of travel and elite baseball and the evils of HS baseball, step up.

This week I have followed a fair amount of the coverage of the NLI period for football. I have read articles with HS players being blasted in the press by college coaches making well into 7 figures.

According to you this is the HSBBW, so the above about football should not be discussed. To try to stop opinions based on your above statement is pretty lame.

I think the topic is very relevant to HS baseball and the future of it. If the idea of a competing league threatens HS baseball as you love it then knowing the reasons why players might choose not to play HS baseball may save it. To ignore why a player might decide to leave HS baseball, sticking your fingers in your ears and saying this isn't the forum for it is not a very intelligent way to educate yourself on the problems that may exists.

quote:

Originally posted by shortnquick:

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
Well, this is the HSBBW. Bob started it as the HSBBW.
The reasons are part of the site.
If others want to start a non-HSBBW site and post about all the great things of travel and elite baseball and the evils of HS baseball, step up.

This week I have followed a fair amount of the coverage of the NLI period for football. I have read articles with HS players being blasted in the press by college coaches making well into 7 figures.

According to you this is the HSBBW, so the above about football should not be discussed. To try to stop opinions based on your above statement is pretty lame.

I think the topic is very revelant to HS baseball and the future of it. If the idea of a competeing league threatens HS baseball as you love it then knowing the reasons why players might choose not to play HS baseball may save it. To ignore why a player might decide to leave HS baseball, sticking your fingers in your ears and saying this isn't the forum for it is not a very intellegent way to educate yourself on the problems that may exists.

Thank you for "educating" me on the rules and on HSBBW.
Actually, we don't have a son heading to HS. He is a college baseball coach and pretty attune to the issues.
Sorry if my reference to the NLI and football offends you. Actually, I think it fits perfectly. Using 17-18 year olds by name to enhance a business goal, when PG clearly says it is a false "illusion" is just wrong. But, as you say "So What?"
If my intelligence(intellegence???) on the subject is the issue, I sure apologize to you.
I have posted on the site for about 10 years.
This place has been great. Along the way I got to reference the highs, the deepest of lows with a coach passing away in a college regional and watching our son and his teammates battle in his name and spirit.
I will remove my "intellgence"...or lack of it as you reference"
Clearly HS baseball and the HSBBW needs to be completely reexamined as the path and vitality to a college scholarship. Obviously, the scholarship is "it." Nothing else matters. Forget the intangibles which Tulowitzki referenced.

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According to you this is the HSBBW, so the above about football should not be discussed. To try to stop opinions based on your above statement is pretty lame.

I think the topic is very revelant to HS baseball and the future of it. If the idea of a competeing league threatens HS baseball as you love it then knowing the reasons why players might choose not to play HS baseball may save it. To ignore why a player might decide to leave HS baseball, sticking your fingers in your ears and saying this isn't the forum for it is not a very intellegent way to educate yourself on the problems that may exists.

Hmmmm...I would then argue that to 'stick your fingers in your ears' and say, "So what?" about an owner/organizer of a league (with $$ at stake) using a headliner kid to promote his somewhat controversial venture without any benefit to the kid (and perhaps no permission from the kid?)...well, I'm not too sure I'd call that "So what?" a tremendously 'intellegent' question (good spelling catch post-fact! ).

Why does HS baseball and elite / travel baseball have to be mutually exclusive? Why should one try to dominate over the other? That is what we have happening here and both sides are at fault. Why does every aspect / level of amateur baseball have to be about getting noticed so they can go to the next level? Why can't we have both where it is about exposure and being flat out competitive and nothing else matters.

Last year we had a kid end up being drafted and throughout our season I got to talk to scouts from almost every team in MLB. Each one is afraid of the selfish nature that baseball is heading with elite / travel starting to edge out high school, legion and summer leagues who do stress competition. But they also talked about how HS baseball is becoming a joke in some areas due to terrible coaches being hired by administrations who have no clue. Financing baseball seasons at the high school level is becoming outrageous.

The way I see (and it wouldn't surprise me if I'm the only one in this boat) is both sides are doing a disservice to the kids who want to play baseball. Instead of finding some way to work together to fix the problems in all areas of baseball both sides turn it into a urinating contest to see who can get the other players. The link that Samricky posted is what's wrong with baseball - not just HS but any team who requires their players to only play with their team at all times. Another thing is wrong is the elite / travel teams who make the players pay thousands of dollars to be on a team and you really can't see where the money is going. I've had players over the summer who got hooked into these types of teams and had horrible experiences. This is what's wrong with baseball - all aspects of the game.

I can't back this up with any type of facts but I truly believe for every good high school team there is at least that many terrible summer teams. For every bad high school team there is at least that many great summer teams. Both HS and good summer teams need to find someway to work together to help out the kids get better.

Now that being said I'm about commitment. If you choose to be on a team or go through a tryout to be on a team then you are on that team until that season is over. If you are on a HS team then you have nothing to do with any type of elite / travel / summer team. I also believe in the flip side as well - if you're in the summer then you shouldn't have anything to do with the high school team. It's not fair to the teams to have kids dealing with both but when a season is over then they should have the freedom to choose where to go to next. Slightly different outlook but it can be what happens to HS baseball is what's going on at my school. We have several teams that allow their athletes to play rec league (and really what's the difference between doing rec league and some sort of travel team outside of talent level????) while their season is going on. It might be the same sports being played or play one sport for the school while playing another sport in the community. No matter how you look at it, it is wrong.

I just don't understand why it has to one over the other. Both can co-exist peacefully and thrive off the other if people would just do the right thing.

infielddad

Your reference to football did not offend me at all. I was just showing you how silly your response was to me when offering an opinion that differed from yours.

I could read in your posts the passion you have for HS baseball. I could read through your posts the passion Tulowitzki has for HS baseball. But why can't you open your mind to the fact that you nor Tulowitzki can impose that feeling on other players that don't feel it. And then sit back and refuse to hear and assess why players might not have that same feeling.

You have posted for 10 years, thats great. I would think you would be a bit more tolerable on opinions that don't mesh with your own.

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You have posted for 10 years, thats great. I would think you would be a bit more tolerable on opinions that don't mesh with your own.

It is not great it is wonderful that infielddad and other old timers take the time to come on here and help some of the new parents/players.I am sure he can find plenty of other things to do.

As well he is being tolerable he is just being passionate by what he feels.

I sometimes see old timers and others being hammered on here as of late.There is a lack of respect for the ones who have been there done that.

I think it is very sad that many new parents only think of baseball in regards to who is watching you and getting a scholarship.

Honestly I first came on this site to see how my son could make the frosh team at his HS.There was a list of things to do to help make the team.My guy did everything on the list.At that time a college scholarship wasnt even part of a conversation.

quote:

Originally posted by shortnquick:
infielddad

Your reference to football did not offend me at all. I was just showing you how silly your response was to me when offering an opinion that differed from yours.

I could read in your posts the passion you have for HS baseball. I could read through your posts the passion Tulowitzki has for HS baseball. But why can't you open your mind to the fact that you nor Tulowitzki can impose that feeling on other players that don't feel it. And then sit back and refuse to hear and assess why players might not have that same feeling.

You have posted for 10 years, thats great. I would think you would be a bit more tolerable on opinions that don't mesh with your own.

One last time from, and through, my lack of "intellegence and now my "silliness"...boy, a bad day for an "old timer" for sure:
The player in the article isn't the topic in this thread.
To my reading, the topic isn't HS baseball or some option.
You have turned the topic into "So What" on the topic of the league organizer/promoter who is the OP posting and leaving.
As it relates to the issue you created within the thread, I am pretty clear...adults should not plagiarize the talents and choices of a 17-18 year old to advance an interest, especially a business/$$$ interest.
To post, walk away, and then dangle this player and scholarship in the topic is the antithesis of the manner in which the talents of this young player should be discussed, if they are discussed, in my opinion.
To imply this young player should be a "poster boy" for the evils or inadequacies of HS baseball is equally untenable, for me.
For all we know, the player in the article may have all the intangibles and more. Who knows because he isn't being "used" for any reason other than "playing in high school is no longer vital for a college scholarship."
To me, the negative aspect of the "So What" you have asked is what is so obvious.
This young baseball player appears to have been "used" for a point on the site. I have no idea why and certainly express no view on whether he has the values of Tulo, myself or what I would prefer.
Because there is nothing about those aspects in the article or the OP, the "intangibles" are unknown.
That the OP appears to have "used" him to advance a "cause" without coming back to participate, and you think this is about my "silliness" and lack of "intellegence," there really is no discussion.
I won't use this young man as the tool for a discussion you and the OP wish to bring.

My dad emailed me the LA TIMES link on Thursday morning, and last night I noticed that ABCL (Director of ABCL/ABD) shared the same link here on the HSBaseballweb. I hadn't planned on responding, as I have mixed feelings...but here it goes.

The ABCL Spring League, IMO, can coexist with high school baseball. It's my understanding that the league was originally established to help those high school players that were either cut from their high school or weren't receiving sufficient playing time? In addition, college freshmen that were redshirting utilized the league to stay in shape. However this year there appears to be a handful of very good 2012 HS players in So Cal that have chosen to bypass their senior year of HS to play in the ABCL Woodbat League.

The young man featured in the LA Times article is a very good player and deserves all the accolades. I looked on the ABD Bulldog Spring ABCL roster, and they're loaded with very talented players. Unfortunately, I don't know who they're going to play in the Spring? The other spring rosters don't appear to have the same talent...but, maybe I'm missing something? BTW, there is a mixture of players throughout Southern California participating in the ABCL, including players from our local area. It's a shame that these young men (2012's that have already committed to D1 schools) feel that the high school experience is not for them? The HS season is 4-5 months of the year, the other 7-8 months can be spent on the Elite/Travel/Scout Teams, and they'll NEVER get the HS experience back. I guess that my son is fortunate to have played high school ball for a coach that he respected, and there's no doubt he enjoyed his four years of high school.

FWIW, the OP (ABCL) was the westcoast Director for Perfect Game not too long ago. I know it has no bearing on PGStaff's response in this thread, and I personally don't think this is about one player in the LA Times article. IMHO, it's about the direction of high school sports. Thankfully UCLA Head Coach John Savage, USC Head Coach Frank Cruz and others still see the value of playing for your high school team. Ironically, one of the UCLA recruits (PG AFLAC pitcher) is on the ABCL Bulldog roster...it makes me think that maybe this is about the upcoming draft and not HS ball? I could be wrong? Hopefully ABCL (M.S.) will give us his thoughts on the article that he posted Thursday night in this thread?

Just walked in the door from watching Cabbage's HS V basketball game on the road against one of their big rivals who are also the first place team in league at the moment.
It was awesome. That opposing school did some serious school spirit preparation for this game. I walked into the gym half way through the JV game and their fans were blowing the roof off with every home team basket of that game. Then the V game started. Wow. Good old fashioned foot stompin', yellin', cheerin', booing, jumpin' around, raisin' the roof, you name it. They were losing the whole game and that didn't reduce the decibels one bit. Energy was unbelievable. Players from both teams were diving all over the floor and into the stands. They were jumping from the bench for every basket. Raw emotion. Pure competition. THAT is HS sports. Our HS baseball games don't have the benefit of the acoustics of a gym but they can get pretty loud and fiery on occasion as well, especially rivalry games and those that have league or playoff implications.

Let me contrast that with the last fall scout baseball game Cabbage played in. It had much more highly decorated athletes than this HS basketball game had.. a field full of some of the best Southern Cal has to offer. Yet, because of the exposure format these games are played under, even the experienced baseball parents and fans are still not certain if it is proper protocall to even golf clap or cheer at these games.

Don't get me wrong. As I stated in my previous post, there is definitely a place and a need for these exposure games and we are grateful for the opportunities that they afford. There is just no way they can replace HS sports, IMO.

Fortunately, the current model in Calif. works pretty well. Like most places, the vast majority play for their high school in the spring and then those who hope to play beyond HS set out in the summer to hook up with the best travel or scout team they can. Calif. HS laws prevent players from playing with outside teams while their sport is in season.

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a bad day for an "old timer"

Glad we found something we could agree on.

I'll preface by saying I didn't read every word of every post in this thread because I was looking for key words so I apologize if I missed it in one of the posts.

However, what I didn't see mentioned in any argument for or against this "trend" of not needing HS baseball is that like everything else in this world it is about the money.

Looking at it from my perspective as a 12u travel coach and parent I do envision this trend continuing...because of MONEY!

Here in SE Lower Michigan there seems to be another indoor baseball training facility opening every day this offseason. They look for the most part to be run by former college and sometimes (minor) pro players. I applaud this and only wish I had the means to do it myself. But with this trend for every guy with the skill and desire to coach at this level it takes a potentially above average HS coaching candidate out of that pool.

As this continues and more and more "baseball guys" opt for working at training facilities and if you make the assumption that they can make more money coaching year round than they can for just the HS baseball season it makes perfect sense of why HS programs will quickly become watered down.

I work with a guy right now that works for our club's facility as a paid instructor and is also a varsity assistant at a local private school and a substitute teacher. I would imagine if at any point he crosses the line between the money he's making at the facility outweighs he money and/or aggravation of teaching, he'd cut bait on the school and that programs coaching would suffer.

Money talks, just ask Prince Fielder!!

When I go catch an occasional local baseball game, I'm not wasting my time looking for some travel organization who's goal is to showcase players, I'll go to watch the local HS baseball game because it's about playing for something as a team. Playing for a division title, conference championship or state tournament if fortunate enough to have a good enough record to qualify blows all away what travelball is all about. I could care less about some unknown travel team where playing for nothing but showcasing.

While I get the whole summer showcase deal, I still would rather watch a local american legion game, although legion seems to have taken a nosedive over recent years in favor of travel leagues which are far more costly than HS and american legion. It's too bad because the team element is taken away with these travel clubs and don't promote teamwork since players are trying to show off to recruiters.

In the end, it's all about the money and travelball is about money.

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Originally posted by cabbagedad:
Just walked in the door from watching Cabbage's HS V basketball game on the road against one of their big rivals...
It was awesome. That opposing school did some serious school spirit preparation for this game.

Just got some of the "rest of the story" from Cabbage. The rival school students facebooked all of our players and made huge scroll signs with personal info (didn't cross the line). A few examples... (names are changed to protect the innocent?)

"Johnny G, tell Sarah I'm single" (Sarah is Johnny's sophmore little sister).

"Danny, why did you get back together with Maria?"

Only in HS sports... the kind of games they'll never forget.

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Originally posted by shortnquick:

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a bad day for an "old timer"

Glad we found something we could agree on.

This is one of the more ridiculous comments you've made on this thread.

Tell us, what institutions are worth preserving in your opinion? Worth arguing for? HS football? HS basketball? Certainly there are ****** coaches in those sports as well...should we just make it all independent so mom and dad can handpick every coach along the way? I can read that you're not that interested in preserving HS sports as a whole...but is there a subset you'd be willing to argue for?

I also see that your son plays college baseball...is that something you'd like to see preserved? Or would it be ok with you if post-HS baseball for unsigned HS players became all scout leagues paid for by parents with 'the dream' for their sons?

For me, and I think for infielddad and others on this thread...HS baseball is an institution worth fighting for. I/we get that you don't care, but there really is no reason to resort to petty insults on a pretty smart (intelligent!) guy with a passion for HS baseball. Or are you just arguing, insulting to try and get the upper hand in an online discussion? Last word?

Do a little research on this situation in SoCal and figure out if this is about the kids or about improving baseball as a whole...or is it about making a lot of money and to that end using a high profile kid's name to promote it? Whose interests are being promoted here? Some of the answers are hinted at by others on this thread, other answers are out there in cyberspace if you're willing to work to find them.

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Originally posted by justbaseball:
For me, and I think for infielddad and others on this thread...HS baseball is an institution worth fighting for.

If it’s worth fighting for then stop being angry at someone like me who is just stating that it's ok to exclude yourself as a player from HS baseball if there is another option. The institution of HS baseball itself has caused some of these problems and is continuing to with coaches beginning to lean towards telling players you either play with the HS in the summer or not at all. When a player gets told that I'm sure he no longer feels that great sense of pride playing for his HS and community. This is just one example how the HS baseball institution itself is promoting "other options" other than HS baseball for a player. So to be angry at me for understanding why a player would leave HS baseball or angry at a player who decides to take that other option is misplaced and maybe it would be better served looking at HS baseball and their involvement on why there is support of non HS baseball leagues and the problems they have that caused it.
You say I don’t care. That couldn’t be further from the truth, because I do, probably more than most. I watch more HS sports than most also. Not just baseball but all of the ones you posted about. That is why I could look at something I love, honestly look at it and evaluate what is wrong with it. That is one of the things I am trying to express. If HS baseball itself is creating situations that foster the idea for players to leave then hold them as accountable as anyone else you might be angry with.

And my jab to infielddad was just trying to add some levity; I took my spelling error as the same that you keep referring to.