This is an interesting thread. Basketball has long had AAU which has virtually eliminated the HS season from having any real meaning and the world keeps spinning.
The fact that that model hasn't already bled out to football is more of a testament to the calendar and the wear and tear of the game. If football could have a summer season that did not overlap with the summer training camps and the high risk of injurty it would have happened many moons ago. It would probably be on ESPN.
For baseball to finally be drifting into this zone should really come as no surprise. All it will take is enough shoe and equipment money and it'll happen.
1. What are these "lessons" that are being taught in HS baseball that are not being taught in summer ball?
2. In the event of losing players. Is their a possibility the HS coach may need to rethink his approach?
3. Do you really believe that parents would ship their kids off to some "circus" of a program without
due-diligence?
1) Balancing citizenship, academics and the game.
2) Agreed. The coach at our high school has to sell the program. He's competing against losing kids to private and Catholic high schools.
3) I've seen parents assume the grass is greener on the other side because they thought they saw brown grass on their side of the fence.
2. In the event of losing players. Is their a possibility the HS coach may need to rethink his approach?
3. Do you really believe that parents would ship their kids off to some "circus" of a program without
due-diligence?
1) Balancing citizenship, academics and the game.
2) Agreed. The coach at our high school has to sell the program. He's competing against losing kids to private and Catholic high schools.
3) I've seen parents assume the grass is greener on the other side because they thought they saw brown grass on their side of the fence.
I know many "great" high school coaches and there are many great high school programs. Some of the best coaches I've ever known did not have big winning teams. Same thing is true in youth baseball.
I know many "great" travel/club coaches and I have known many "great" legion coaches and "great" college and professional coaches. There are coaches at every level who care about their players even beyond what happens on the field. There are good scouts and bad scouts. There are good agents and bad agents. There are good recruiters and bad recruiters. There are good instructors and bad instructors. There are good events and bad events, There are good players and bad players.
There is good and bad everywhere. Sooner or later every player that plays long enough will experience both. The ability to adjust is very important.
I don't like it when people claim Travel Ball is all about the money, individual play, unteamlike, creates poor attitudes, winning is not important, etc. Though, I'm sure some players turn out that way. IMO those players would be that way no matter what.
I don't like it when people claim high school is not important and coaching is a problem. Though, I'm sure that some coaches are a problem.
It's baseball... All of it! There's good, there's bad. It's everywhere in baseball. You don't have to look very far to see the good in most every type of baseball.
I see a lot of high school and travel/club coaches that have common goals. Some coach both High School and Travel ball. They want to do what is best for their players.
Bottom line... I don't think it's right to lump everyone into a certain catagory based on where they play. The guys you want on your team and the guys you don't want are in every type of baseball. Same goes for the coaches, parents, administrators, umpires, etc.
I know many "great" travel/club coaches and I have known many "great" legion coaches and "great" college and professional coaches. There are coaches at every level who care about their players even beyond what happens on the field. There are good scouts and bad scouts. There are good agents and bad agents. There are good recruiters and bad recruiters. There are good instructors and bad instructors. There are good events and bad events, There are good players and bad players.
There is good and bad everywhere. Sooner or later every player that plays long enough will experience both. The ability to adjust is very important.
I don't like it when people claim Travel Ball is all about the money, individual play, unteamlike, creates poor attitudes, winning is not important, etc. Though, I'm sure some players turn out that way. IMO those players would be that way no matter what.
I don't like it when people claim high school is not important and coaching is a problem. Though, I'm sure that some coaches are a problem.
It's baseball... All of it! There's good, there's bad. It's everywhere in baseball. You don't have to look very far to see the good in most every type of baseball.
I see a lot of high school and travel/club coaches that have common goals. Some coach both High School and Travel ball. They want to do what is best for their players.
Bottom line... I don't think it's right to lump everyone into a certain catagory based on where they play. The guys you want on your team and the guys you don't want are in every type of baseball. Same goes for the coaches, parents, administrators, umpires, etc.
quote:Originally posted by coach2709:
dswann could you explain your second question to TCB1 for me? I'm not quite sure what you're asking. As for your third question in my experience I would say yes there are some parents who will do that. They will do it for a variety of reasons - they may think it will make them look better amongst their friends, they won't have a clue get sold some snake oil pitch and many other reasons that you or I and most on here would never fall for. This is the slippery slope and the danger these alternative leagues could start to pose. I'm not singling any one in particular but just a general overall example. A league will pop up and start going after the average to slightly above average player to get them into their league. That is where the vast majority of players are and to target them makes more sense as a way to get the better players. If the majority of the team who is above average is playing in this alternative league then why would the great players stay? The competition is gone.
A independent league will only survive or attempt to challenge the traditional HS spring season if there's enough discontent amongst, players and families for a independent to build a league. If a HS program can offer a dynamic experience no parent in their right mind would opt out.In fact you may have a bigger problem....trying to stem the tide of players moving into your district
With respect to your exodus scenario of the better players. It really shouldn't matter. HS baseball will continue, possibly at a lower skill level. There will still be cuts in the fall.
dswann, to answer your questions:
A few questions for you.
1. What are these "lessons" that are being taught in HS baseball that are not being taught in summer ball?
--Quite often, in my experience, they pick the best players they can, throw them out there and let them play. Players don't run out pop-ups? No penalty. Players throw their (hats, bats, gloves, etc.)? No penalty. Players have no self control, argue with umps, jump to other teams, etc? No penalty. Players don't have consequences because they are so talented, that the coach doesn't want to hold them accountable.
Additionally, when parents pay thousands of dollars to play, it causes some coaches to become cowards when it comes to holding players accountable or benching them. The parents will be in their ear hollering about why their son isn't playing.....for every person who gets upset about high school coaches who supposedly play favorites to the AD's or superintendant's son, I can show you summer coaches who have trouble dealing with badly behaving kids whose parents have paid a lot of money.
2. In the event of losing players. Is their a possibility the HS coach may need to rethink his approach?
--While there seems to be a generalization of high school coaches as English teachers just looking to make some extra cash, or complete morons who just want to be bullies, those are not typical in my experience. So, is it POSSIBLE, that that is why a player left a program? Sure. I feel it is MORE likely though that if a player leaves a high school program, he just doesn't like the coach, or doesn't think he can give him enough of what he wants, or just doesn't want to accept that coach's discipline.
The other reason that player might leave the high school team: because the coach isn't letting him get his way. I tell all my players and their parents that while they have their son's best interest FIRST, I don't have the luxury of that; I have the best interest of ALL 15 of my "sons" and that often I will make a decision that is good for the whole team, but maybe not good for THEIR son. That doesn't always sit well with people, especially if they are a little more "driven" for thier son to advance beyond high school.
3. Do you really believe that parents would ship their kids off to some "circus" of a program without
due-diligence?
--- Uhhhhhh......YEAH!!! I've got a young man who I'm sure will make my JV team as a sophomore. I guarantee you he thinks he should be on Varsity, and he MAY even have the talent to be there (he won't be, because of his lack of work ethic; but that is another story)....anyway, this young man has been on three different select/travel teams in three summers. Each year it is "The coach didn't know enough" or "He played favorites" or "We didn't play in enough tournaments".....and at least 2 of those teams were "new" teams with coaches who supposedly had knowledge and experience. But those teams could show NO record of reliability because they were so new.....
Another player has played on a team 2 years that was just begun 2 years ago. They are supposedly "elite", and yet despite fancy uniforms and traveling....they are coached by the sponsor's 19 year old son and a couple of his friends. Many promises made, yet I've seen no improvement in this player in 3 years.
Doesn't mean the kid would've improved if he'd played with my summmer team either. But at least I don't sell the kid a bill of goods, telling him I'll improve him this much and help him get a college scholarship, etc., etc. This kids parents are CONVINCED that being on this team his going to lead him to college baseball. Well, I hope it does, because I'm not sure that he's even going to make JV on my team this year as a Junior.
There are a few (I'd say 2 or 3) programs in my area that I highly endorse....if a kid gets a chance to play summer ball there I say "GO!" because I know they'll get a gread baseball education and they'll be treated fairly and honestly, and they'll be taken care of....but beyond those, I am initially suspicious of the motives and credentials of most of the "elite" summer teams around.
A few questions for you.
1. What are these "lessons" that are being taught in HS baseball that are not being taught in summer ball?
--Quite often, in my experience, they pick the best players they can, throw them out there and let them play. Players don't run out pop-ups? No penalty. Players throw their (hats, bats, gloves, etc.)? No penalty. Players have no self control, argue with umps, jump to other teams, etc? No penalty. Players don't have consequences because they are so talented, that the coach doesn't want to hold them accountable.
Additionally, when parents pay thousands of dollars to play, it causes some coaches to become cowards when it comes to holding players accountable or benching them. The parents will be in their ear hollering about why their son isn't playing.....for every person who gets upset about high school coaches who supposedly play favorites to the AD's or superintendant's son, I can show you summer coaches who have trouble dealing with badly behaving kids whose parents have paid a lot of money.
2. In the event of losing players. Is their a possibility the HS coach may need to rethink his approach?
--While there seems to be a generalization of high school coaches as English teachers just looking to make some extra cash, or complete morons who just want to be bullies, those are not typical in my experience. So, is it POSSIBLE, that that is why a player left a program? Sure. I feel it is MORE likely though that if a player leaves a high school program, he just doesn't like the coach, or doesn't think he can give him enough of what he wants, or just doesn't want to accept that coach's discipline.
The other reason that player might leave the high school team: because the coach isn't letting him get his way. I tell all my players and their parents that while they have their son's best interest FIRST, I don't have the luxury of that; I have the best interest of ALL 15 of my "sons" and that often I will make a decision that is good for the whole team, but maybe not good for THEIR son. That doesn't always sit well with people, especially if they are a little more "driven" for thier son to advance beyond high school.
3. Do you really believe that parents would ship their kids off to some "circus" of a program without
due-diligence?
--- Uhhhhhh......YEAH!!! I've got a young man who I'm sure will make my JV team as a sophomore. I guarantee you he thinks he should be on Varsity, and he MAY even have the talent to be there (he won't be, because of his lack of work ethic; but that is another story)....anyway, this young man has been on three different select/travel teams in three summers. Each year it is "The coach didn't know enough" or "He played favorites" or "We didn't play in enough tournaments".....and at least 2 of those teams were "new" teams with coaches who supposedly had knowledge and experience. But those teams could show NO record of reliability because they were so new.....
Another player has played on a team 2 years that was just begun 2 years ago. They are supposedly "elite", and yet despite fancy uniforms and traveling....they are coached by the sponsor's 19 year old son and a couple of his friends. Many promises made, yet I've seen no improvement in this player in 3 years.
Doesn't mean the kid would've improved if he'd played with my summmer team either. But at least I don't sell the kid a bill of goods, telling him I'll improve him this much and help him get a college scholarship, etc., etc. This kids parents are CONVINCED that being on this team his going to lead him to college baseball. Well, I hope it does, because I'm not sure that he's even going to make JV on my team this year as a Junior.
There are a few (I'd say 2 or 3) programs in my area that I highly endorse....if a kid gets a chance to play summer ball there I say "GO!" because I know they'll get a gread baseball education and they'll be treated fairly and honestly, and they'll be taken care of....but beyond those, I am initially suspicious of the motives and credentials of most of the "elite" summer teams around.
1. Great lessons. If the coach wasn't instilling them I certainly would be.
2.It doesn't matter why a player leaves. discipline, playing time, uniform color,mascot. The player has left, for whatever reason. If a program is constantly losing players a coach may want to rethink his approach.
3. Coach...you can't save them all. On the other hand (as long as were dealing with what if's) your sophmore tranfers to another school and becomes All State. Moreover why would you want a malcontent on your team?
2.It doesn't matter why a player leaves. discipline, playing time, uniform color,mascot. The player has left, for whatever reason. If a program is constantly losing players a coach may want to rethink his approach.
3. Coach...you can't save them all. On the other hand (as long as were dealing with what if's) your sophmore tranfers to another school and becomes All State. Moreover why would you want a malcontent on your team?
What do you think about a high school coach telling players on the his team of a player who decided to play in the Spring League instead of high school that he will ruin his baseball career?
We had a player who is in his second year of the Spring League. He is a current Senior this year and is being bullied by his former high school coach. He is threatening to ruin his baseball career and will make sure that he never plays college baseball.
The coach has been trying to get him back on the high school team this year telling him that he will black ball from playing college baseball. The coach has been telling his current players that schools are calling him and he has told the players that he will make sure he doesn't play at the collegiate level and that he will make an example of him.
What is sad is that the player has options already and is close to deciding where the would like to go to school. I don't believe that the coach will be able to affect his opportunity. But what he is doing is mind screwing the kid. The schools that are recruiting him already know he plays in the Spring League.
I don’t think this is fair of a coach telling his current players that he will make an example of him. Why can’t the coach just leave him be and not worry about that he is not playing high school? This is someone who is in a position of leadership of young men and he is teaching his players to dislike or even hate a young man. Is this what type of person we want to lead our young people?
We had a player who is in his second year of the Spring League. He is a current Senior this year and is being bullied by his former high school coach. He is threatening to ruin his baseball career and will make sure that he never plays college baseball.
The coach has been trying to get him back on the high school team this year telling him that he will black ball from playing college baseball. The coach has been telling his current players that schools are calling him and he has told the players that he will make sure he doesn't play at the collegiate level and that he will make an example of him.
What is sad is that the player has options already and is close to deciding where the would like to go to school. I don't believe that the coach will be able to affect his opportunity. But what he is doing is mind screwing the kid. The schools that are recruiting him already know he plays in the Spring League.
I don’t think this is fair of a coach telling his current players that he will make an example of him. Why can’t the coach just leave him be and not worry about that he is not playing high school? This is someone who is in a position of leadership of young men and he is teaching his players to dislike or even hate a young man. Is this what type of person we want to lead our young people?
Today should be his last day as HS coach PERIOD. My son would not play for someone like that. If all the players walked off until the coach was fired, justice would be done and virtue would be honored over greed and self-centeredness.
quote:Originally posted by ABD Bulldogs:
What do you think...?
I think you're preying on the lowest common denominator and, sadly, pulling in kids looking for an excuse in the process. Do you just take a parent's (or kid's) word for it that a HS coach misbehaved? Cause I've heard plenty of tales about HS and summer coaches that just didn't pan out to be true...including some my kids have played for.
Everything you guys are writing on this thread is about the couple of bad apples rather than something 'good' about your league or organization. What exactly is the 'good thing' about promoting a league that threatens HS sports in your area? Are you out to save the world from mean HS coaches? Will you create an alternate universe for each and every industry when their bosses are mean at age 25? 35? Will you offer an alternate collegiate or minor league some day because of the bada$$ coaches at those levels?
There is no doubt in my mind, whatsoever, that your league will flourish because I know the way too many parents my age think about this stuff. I think 3/4's of the families that will head to your league are looking for a way to blame their HS coach for the fact that their kid isn't as good as they think he is. What will they have in the end? Certainly not memories of playing in front of their hometown, representing their school, their friends, their community.
I think promoting the first few elite players who joined your league is something you see as an opportunity for your league. I think you are headed to the s-o-c-c-e-r model. Is that the legacy you want to leave? Diminish HS baseball to a rec sport in your area...because a handful of kids couldn't deal with a difficult (or even bad) HS coach?
Sorry, I think your league has (rather quickly) evolved into a bad thing itself. Fine with me to create a place for kids to play who didn't make their HS team, but you are opening Pandora's Box with your new thrust to save the world for elite players who don't like their HS coaches.
...Thats what I think.
Perception is reality.
If your son had or has a good HS coach and he attends a school where the program is competitive and plays against good competition, then of course you don’t think travel ball would / could or should replace HS ball.
If your son had or is having a bad experience, then your perception is totally different.
I’ve personally seen kids that went on to play college baseball (and do very well) that were virtually ignored by HS Coaches along the way. There are so many variables, there is no “right” answer for everyone. Every player and every situation is different.
Personally I believe HS baseball to be an important thing for a young athlete, and much of it has nothing to do with their future (or lack thereof) in the game. Playing with their friends. Playing for their school. The mentality of entering a District / Regional / State tournament, knowing that if they get eliminated, they can’t just enter another tournament the following week. It’s the same reason my son remembers Little League and All Stars so fondly. It was playing with and for his buddies, representing his community. There is a lot to be said about that.
The harsh reality is that most kids who play HS ball aren’t going to play college baseball. The majority of college baseball players aren’t going to play pro baseball.
It’s like the discussion about possibly giving up other sports in High School to focus on baseball. Can it improve an athlete’s baseball ability by focusing on JUST baseball? Sure it can. But missing something that cannot be reproduced, or not doing something a kid would enjoy, all in ‘preparation’ for a path that is definitely not guaranteed seems a bit sad to me.
Both have their place. Neither one could ever truly ‘replace’ the other. There’s a lot to be said about athletes learning the value of TEAM. Learning what it means to play for something other than yourself.
Me personally, with my kid being a FR that is showing potential (and that’s all it is right now – potential) I think it more important for him to enjoy his HS experience and learn some very important life lessons that he might not experience otherwise.
Just my two cents.
If your son had or has a good HS coach and he attends a school where the program is competitive and plays against good competition, then of course you don’t think travel ball would / could or should replace HS ball.
If your son had or is having a bad experience, then your perception is totally different.
I’ve personally seen kids that went on to play college baseball (and do very well) that were virtually ignored by HS Coaches along the way. There are so many variables, there is no “right” answer for everyone. Every player and every situation is different.
Personally I believe HS baseball to be an important thing for a young athlete, and much of it has nothing to do with their future (or lack thereof) in the game. Playing with their friends. Playing for their school. The mentality of entering a District / Regional / State tournament, knowing that if they get eliminated, they can’t just enter another tournament the following week. It’s the same reason my son remembers Little League and All Stars so fondly. It was playing with and for his buddies, representing his community. There is a lot to be said about that.
The harsh reality is that most kids who play HS ball aren’t going to play college baseball. The majority of college baseball players aren’t going to play pro baseball.
It’s like the discussion about possibly giving up other sports in High School to focus on baseball. Can it improve an athlete’s baseball ability by focusing on JUST baseball? Sure it can. But missing something that cannot be reproduced, or not doing something a kid would enjoy, all in ‘preparation’ for a path that is definitely not guaranteed seems a bit sad to me.
Both have their place. Neither one could ever truly ‘replace’ the other. There’s a lot to be said about athletes learning the value of TEAM. Learning what it means to play for something other than yourself.
Me personally, with my kid being a FR that is showing potential (and that’s all it is right now – potential) I think it more important for him to enjoy his HS experience and learn some very important life lessons that he might not experience otherwise.
Just my two cents.
quote:Originally posted by ctandc:
missing something that cannot be reproduced, or not doing something a kid would enjoy, all in ‘preparation’ for a path that is definitely not guaranteed seems a bit sad to me.
Just asking. I haven't been paying close attention, here. Are these players also 'dropping out' of their high school to play in this alternative league? Do they then get tutored or home-schooled?
(Sorry, if I just gave the alternative league a new idea. That would be nuts.)
quote:Originally posted by ABD Bulldogs:
What do you think about a high school coach telling players on the his team of a player who decided to play in the Spring League instead of high school that he will ruin his baseball career?
I think you should call the HS Coach and ask him...
The link below comes from Sunday's paper. Different sport, same topic.
"The shift by the federation applies to its top boys teams around the country, requiring players on those teams — known as Development Academy teams — to participate in a nearly year-round season and, by extension, forcing them and their s****r moms and dads to decide whether they should play for their club or play for their school."
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03...?partner=rss&emc=rss
"The shift by the federation applies to its top boys teams around the country, requiring players on those teams — known as Development Academy teams — to participate in a nearly year-round season and, by extension, forcing them and their s****r moms and dads to decide whether they should play for their club or play for their school."
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03...?partner=rss&emc=rss
quote:Originally posted by justbaseball:quote:Originally posted by ABD Bulldogs:
What do you think...?
I think you're preying on the lowest common denominator and, sadly, pulling in kids looking for an excuse in the process. Do you just take a parent's (or kid's) word for it that a HS coach misbehaved? Cause I've heard plenty of tales about HS and summer coaches that just didn't pan out to be true...including some my kids have played for.
Everything you guys are writing on this thread is about the couple of bad apples rather than something 'good' about your league or organization. What exactly is the 'good thing' about promoting a league that threatens HS sports in your area? Are you out to save the world from mean HS coaches? Will you create an alternate universe for each and every industry when their bosses are mean at age 25? 35? Will you offer an alternate collegiate or minor league some day because of the bada$$ coaches at those levels?
There is no doubt in my mind, whatsoever, that your league will flourish because I know the way too many parents my age think about this stuff. I think 3/4's of the families that will head to your league are looking for a way to blame their HS coach for the fact that their kid isn't as good as they think he is. What will they have in the end? Certainly not memories of playing in front of their hometown, representing their school, their friends, their community.
I think promoting the first few elite players who joined your league is something you see as an opportunity for your league. I think you are headed to the s-o-c-c-e-r model. Is that the legacy you want to leave? Diminish HS baseball to a rec sport in your area...because a handful of kids couldn't deal with a difficult (or even bad) HS coach?
Sorry, I think your league has (rather quickly) evolved into a bad thing itself. Fine with me to create a place for kids to play who didn't make their HS team, but you are opening Pandora's Box with your new thrust to save the world for elite players who don't like their HS coaches.
...Thats what I think.
Could you please explain how the movement of an elite player(s) to a spring league compromises HS baseball. If all the malcontent players and parents were not involved in HS baseball, would that not be a plus for a HS coach. If every elite player opted to play in a spring league, would that not create a huge oppotunity for players who would not have a chance(cut)to play if the elite players stuck around... Think of the memories.
This topic usually goes into the toilet when opponents of a spring league use the " bad coach by the player/parent perspective" card. Lets assume that every HS coach was fantastic. Here comes the but! There's another coach/league who's head and shoulders better than your existing coach. And can get you to your goal of playing college baseball. Why would you stay? At the very least how great it is it that there's an option.
One last question. How are choices in virtually every aspect of your life be considered a good thing with the exception of HS baseball?
Thats what I think!
Well said dswann!! Drives me crazy when people try to impose what they think a player should do or what they think "the experience" should be. Whether it is about a coach or just wanting another option. It shouldn't matter.
dswann - While i somewhat agree with your post, due take into consideration that justbaseball (and I)pointed out that ABD probably needs to contact the coach in question --- rather than taking the kids word for it, and airing (unnecessary) dirty laundry on a public forum --- that he (ABD) knew would provoke a response. ABD asked "what do you think" --- and he got his response, from all of us.
I do not disagree with Spring Leagues for HS aged kids. If they attract the "elite" players", so be it. To each his own.
FWIW - Take a look at the spring league in question. Seems they are lacking enough players to create enough teams resulting in a pretty limited season. So I guess I just helped bring this topic back to the top - which I think was the original reason for the most recent post.
I do not disagree with Spring Leagues for HS aged kids. If they attract the "elite" players", so be it. To each his own.
FWIW - Take a look at the spring league in question. Seems they are lacking enough players to create enough teams resulting in a pretty limited season. So I guess I just helped bring this topic back to the top - which I think was the original reason for the most recent post.
quote:Originally posted by bballdad2016:
FWIW - Take a look at the spring league in question. Seems they are lacking enough players to create enough teams resulting in a pretty limited season. So I guess I just helped bring this topic back to the top - which I think was the original reason for the most recent post.
Not sure what you are saying about the rosters for the Spring League that are limited. The rosters are not listed online as of right now. They will be listed online shortly.
There are 8 teams in the D1 level of the Spring League. Each team has a minimum of 20 players to 30 players.
The actual league games will begin March 17th where each team will play a 4 game series each weekend for 7 weekends against each of the teams. They will play DH's on Sat and Sun with a 9 Inn and 7 Inn on each day. The league will consist of 28 league games with an end of the season Spring League Championship that will conclude over Memorial weekend.
Some of the Spring League teams have been playing games already against high school teams, club teams & some of the Spring League teams. The ABD Bulldogs have already participated in 20 plus games so far and even traveled to Hawaii last weekend to play against the high schools in Hawaii.
The interest in the league has grown quite a bit where the teams in the D1 league have been turning away players that want to play in the league. Next year we will be adding two more teams for the D1 level to complete the league.
We do have a D2 level as well that allows any player who wants to play. They play two 9 Inning games each weekend as opposed to the 4 game series of the D1.
You can get more information on the league at http://www.abcleague.org.