Landing leg

Highheat55,

quote:

“Just about everytime after pitching, my left knee is pretty sore”

This is the result of how you drop in from you’re leg lifted traditional pitching mechanics where you land with a locked in glove side foot stopping all previously gained forwards momentum that puts the first type of diskinetic stressful action into play.
Pushing off with your groin to then pushing back to stop this previously gained inertia

quote:

“I don't know if it has to be the way I plant my foot”

Traditional Foot plant is the first consideration.
The second is during ball drive since your foot is locked in from keeping you’re bodies mass behind the plant foot when you rotate the hips the femur rotates within the socket by staying static with it’s Fossa (socket)moving in rotation causing extreme stress from the now fully ranged in motion angled Ball (head) and socket of the hip made worse depending on how much recovery back bend you perform. This mal stress translates right into the knee that is not designed to handle lateral twisting forces that is produced by you’re mechanic.

You are rolling the ball across the socket like a mortar and pestle somewhat like you’re shoulder does when it decelerates causing Labrum problems with both joints and other complications like inflammation etc.
The problem manifests itself at all levels but is not perceived as a problem by most because it is not talked about much but puts many in the MLB on the DL.

Many X-MLB players end up with knee and hip replacement surgeries, you have heard of Tommy John surgery but did you know he had complete hip replacement also.
This is why Dr.Marshall is trying to bring the Crowstep rhythm to the mound with his bottom half tenets, these tenets can be lesser but helpfully performed even with the useless leg lift. Dr.Marshall himself has had complete knee repacement because of this destructive bottom half mechanic.

quote:

“if I am doing something wrong”

The Fix,

Stay tall, stride shorter, let you’re plant foot land heal to toe the way we walk, trot and run then rolling around with the rotation of you’re leg and bodies mass. You’re toes should stay in line with the frontal direction with you’re knee all the way through ball drive and release finish.
Firm you’re leg up when it is fully extended with you’re knee at you’re second post position. Attain 180 degrees of free flowing rotation with out any kinetic (locking in the foot) chain discontinuities.

How about some low quality U-tube video to ponder?

Post a YouTube, then we can give some practical advice.

Your knee problem could very well be that you are landing to much on your heel causing your front leg to lock up. You do not want to land on your heel. You want to land basically on the balls of your foot with you chest over a slightly bent front knee.

quote:

Originally posted by NIC15:
You do not want to land on your heel. You want to land basically on the balls of your foot with you chest over a slightly bent front knee.

Can you provide a link to a MLB pitcher that does not land on their heel first?

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:

quote:

Originally posted by NIC15:
You do not want to land on your heel. You want to land basically on the balls of your foot with you chest over a slightly bent front knee.

Can you provide a link to a MLB pitcher that does not land on their heel first?

I sure can. But I prefer to give advise based on years of personal experience as a player, and coach. I am sure you can give me some regurgitated belief based coaching thoughts that are not your own, but I prefer to be original.

Can you provide me with a link to any MLB Pitcher that says that you should land on your heel first?

I'm with NIC15 that looking to see if you are landing on the heel is a good place to start for finding a fix.

You don't want to land on the heel when pitching. I did watch several videos and most of them were landing on the ball of their foot with a few who would land on what looked like the entire bottom of the foot. I never saw anybody land strictly on the heel and roll onto the rest of the foot.

When you hit heel first you are not athletic and when the foot does land that is the most athletic part of the pitching motion. If you want to be an effective pitcher (or athlete) then you got to end up landing on the ball of your foot.

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:

quote:

Originally posted by NIC15:
You do not want to land on your heel. You want to land basically on the balls of your foot with you chest over a slightly bent front knee.

Can you provide a link to a MLB pitcher that does not land on their heel first?

Here you go.

http://www.pitchingclips.com/

In the lead clip it looks like Lincecum is landing on the heal, but look at it closely and he lands flat. In general you want to land flat to slightly toward the ball of the feet. Ideal is flat.

That said pitching with pain regardless of landing is a problem and should be checked out by a Dr.

If you look at the Lincecum clip by frame, he lands on his heel. He is pretty effective.

Babe Ruth landed on his heel when batting, so do many many others. Should we not land on our heel when batting also?

If you have a long stride while pitching or hitting you will land on your heel. The key is to have a bent knee when landing.

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
If you look at the Lincecum clip by frame, he lands on his heel. He is pretty effective.

Babe Ruth landed on his heel when batting, so do many many others. Should we not land on our heel when batting also?

If you have a long stride while pitching or hitting you will land on your heel. The key is to have a bent knee when landing.

Babe Ruth landed on his heel when batting? Did you see him play? Come on let's start being realistic. And the answer is NO! you are not supposed to land on your heel when batting.

And actually you are wrong about having a long stride causing you to land on your heel, it's actually the opposite. If your stride is to short you often land on your heel, cutting you off.

It appears that Lincecum almost lands on his heel but at the last second lands flat.

Thanks for the Video YGD. Very helpful

quote:

Originally posted by YoungGunDad:
It appears that Lincecum almost lands on his heel but at the last second lands flat.

Anyone can look at this by frame in Quicktime. Lincecum lands on his heel, then 7 frames later, gets the front of his foot down.

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
Babe Ruth landed on his heel when batting, so do many many others.

oops, NIC is correct. I had the Babe confused. He did not land on his heel. He landed on the front of his foot, then "spins" on his heel, just like Jim Thome.

SoS: I hope this does not turn into the hair splitting that we see in the hitting forum. You are correct that long striders touch on the heal, the weight transfer is on the flat foot and you are correct the key is a bent leg. You will generally see that most land flat to the balls of the feet, but like anything there are exceptions.

From the clips I've looked at most mlb pitchers land close to flat. More land heel first than ball of the foot first. It scares me to look at Frankie Rodriguez but he lands very heel first and is very effective. The key in all this is to land as close to flat as possible. The worst thing to do relative to being an effective pitcher is land too much ball of the foot first. When you land ball of the foot first it is very difficult to maintain the momentum. You can maintain it easily either flat or heel first. The worst thing as far as putting stress on the knee is landing too heel first, but it works pretty well as far as pitching well goes.

The Lincecum clip above is hard to decipher as it isn't anywhere near 30 fps but Lincecum clearly lands heel first. You can tell from the angle of the foot when the heel first touches.

Teaching kids to land ball of the foot first is one of those myths that messes up a lot of kids and it can be a tough habit to break.

Nic15,

quote:

“Can you provide me with a link to any MLB Pitcher that says that you should land on your heel first?”

Here is one with a Doctorate in kinesiology who has already changed a major sports mechanic QB passing 35 years ago. Dr.MikeMarshall.com

All human forwards motion dictates a heel to toe kinesiological action to be able to conserve bodily inertia where the goal is to keep the mass moving forwards during drive and continues forwards during release. This is how we are built for this action.
To produce a stopping action just achieve ball to heel kinesiological action where the bodily mass stays behind the plant foot. as in the traditional pitching motion.
You will notice when traditional leg lifters transfer from heel to toe they end up at the ball but then never use this foot again for propulsion the way it should be performed by then turning and rolling across with a then lifted (extended) foot allowing you to attain 180 degrees of rotation putting you in the classic safe drop-step position defensive postural finish instead of the vulnerable traditional back bent, backside leg up with only on foot in contact with the ground.

quote:

“And actually you are wrong about having a long stride causing you to land on your heel”

In pitching he is actually right but very wrong about the batting but he corrected himself.

quote:

“If your stride is to short you often land on your heel,

You have this backwards, when you stride long you have a propensity to land heel first because you mass is so far behind your plant foot, giving you less chance at achieving useful rotation.
If you stride short it is more difficult to land heel first but is still performed well this way but now you can rotate from a taller position and roll across to the ball then up on your toes still driving.

quote:

“cutting you off”

Cutting you off of what? The only thing cut off is forwards inertia and ability to rotate by striding long making this stress we are actually talking about more acute.

Coach2709,

quote:

“landing on the heel is a good place to start for finding a fix”

The fix will be to aleve the locking in of the foot and leg as the body centrifugally rotates around the static unit in the traditional motion.

quote:

”You don't want to land on the heel when pitching”

This notion taught by many is the gateway to all the hip, leg and ankle injuries that have plagued traditional pitchers forever.
When you try to attain ball or flat first action you’re brain intuitively balks and does it correctly anyway but more poorly performed than if you voluntarily do it the way you are built. It also makes you perform the locked in foot mechanic that twists up the leg line during drive and finish.

quote:

“I did watch several videos and most of them were landing on the ball of their foot”

I would suggest you do not look at MLB pitchers to figure out how to perform healthy mechanics!

quote:

I never saw anybody land strictly on the heel and roll onto the rest of the foot.

With grainy 30 frames a second video or slow gifs this cannot easily be seen but that lincecum video is over 200 frames a second and shows precisely how most perform it.
None of them roll across and rotate their plant leg and foot because they can’t, their mass has come to a complete stop before the ball even starts forwards. They all finish in a dangerous balancing recovery act where the foot is still planted flat to the ground.

quote:

“When you hit heel first you are not athletic”

All athletes perform heel to toe unless they are driving backwards.

quote:

“when the foot does land that is the most athletic part of the pitching motion”

quote:

“you got to end up landing on the ball of your foot”

Precisely and this is what happens, you end up there after you’re heel hits also.

Sultanoswat,

quote:

“Should we not land on our heel when batting also?”

No you want all forwards body mass to stop and rotate around the front side axis by landing toe to heal, this is why the traditional pitching motion uses none of the early bodily inertia gained from its crotch drive.

BOF,

quote:

“I hope this does not turn into the hair splitting that we see in the hitting forum”

Everybody has an opinion, let them have it, we are talking about injuries from his mechanic that is much more important than the non-injurious batting battles that can be performed many ways.

Cadad,

quote:

“The key in all this is to land as close to flat as possible”

This will ensure continued injurious effect with our original poster

quote:

“When you land ball of the foot first it is very difficult to maintain the momentum”

When you end up at your ball with your foot flat momentum ends anyways with out the next extension of the foot where you turn the plant foot with you’re knee by rolling up to the toes.

quote:

“The worst thing as far as putting stress on the knee is landing too heel first”

This is absolutely wrong! just ask Usain Bolt

quote:

“but it works pretty well as far as pitching well goes”

It works well to cause this injury and many other bottom half and lower back ones.

quote:

“The Lincecum clip above is hard to decipher as it isn't anywhere near 30 fps”

You have this backwards! It is much easier to decipher because there is 8 times as much information and is a delight to see a High speed GIF with over 240 frames for a change.

quote:

”Teaching kids to land ball of the foot first is one of those myths that messes up a lot of kids and it can be a tough habit to break”

Amen!

Highheat 55,

Here is a pic of Babe Ruth actually pitching, notice how his glove side foot is locked in incorrectly even though he finishes higher than most causing less rotational twisting stress but still considerable because he does not release it with his body rotation just as it is done today.
Look at the stress in the knee where the knee has no ability to absorb this stress and does not articulate in this way.





In just a few years we have had many hip, knee and ankle stress reaction posts here at HSBW that can all be mechanically mitigated by rotating the foot and leg through drive and release, you guy’s need to give this a try.

WRONG YARDBIRD. Stopping actually transfers energy. Unless you can stop the earth with your stride, you actually need to stop to transfer energy. All fielders throw better BY STOPPING.

Your best pitcher is that way because he is ignoring several of Marshall's tenets.

You know what Yardbird I believe you are correct. That is the best post I've seen you post so far and it's opened my eyes. I'm going to go back and re-read everything you've put and research Marshall mechanics so I can start coaching my players the correct way. Thank you for the eye opening experience.

By the way this kool aid tastes GREAT!!!! Do you have any more??? You guys need to try the kool aid. I think it's cherry.

Actually, if you watch sprinters you will see that out of the blocks, they are exclusively on the balls of their feet. Once they reach full stride, their lead (stride) leg goes out with the toe pointed upwards but at about 12" abv. the ground it flattens out and touches down on the ball of the foot often looking as if they barely touch the track. Hence, track spikes are only on the ball of the shoe.

Comparing pitching to running or walking is moronic. Totally different set of kinetics.

MTS

quote:

“Stopping actually transfers energy”

Newton would disagree!

quote:

“Unless you can stop the earth with your stride”

You would not be stopping the earth just changing its inertial properties opposed to yours; you actually push the earth and affect it.

quote:

“you actually need to stop to transfer energy”

Newton would disagree! Conservation requires continuance.

quote:

“All fielders throw better BY STOPPING”

I’ve even seen many a strong-armed SS jump up backwards and throw a bullet across the diamond with no ground effects. Does not make eliminating ground effects as better.

All fielders throw better by rotating thru their throws leg to leg as most do.
Pitchers should do the same but they do not because of the current leg mechanics.

quote:

”Your best pitcher is that way because he is ignoring several of Marshall's tenets”

You do not know who my best pitcher is! If you are speaking of Matzek he was taught to acquiesce on not ignore some of Marshall’s tenets to his detriment because of same thinking you display here. He knows all the material, does you’re child have this advantage, don’t answer that, I already know he does, how about the rest of the youth players, you giving the information to you’re child then bad mouthing it here is a bit strange? Matzek learned his torque game well late 18 cyo, I have kids now that have a torque game by the time they are 12 all much better than T. Tylers best pitch now is the pronated Slider, his father said it was off the charts, even though his maxline fastball is at 98, go figure.

Ag19dad,

quote:

“Actually, if you watch sprinters you will see that out of the blocks, they are exclusively on the balls of their feet”

Exactly right as it should be when an athlete has his mass in front of the propulsion mechanic as I explained in the previous post.

quote:

“goes out with the toe pointed upwards”

Yes, dorsiflexed at an upwards angle about 15 degrees, this puts the muscles that extend the ankle at full (stretch in Yardspeak) length ready to contract after the ball is laid down and the mass now in front of it.

quote:

“flattens out and touches down”

It stays flexed until heal touch down then neural signaled to then extend the foot into Plantar flexion rolling forwards as I have explained we want our pitchers to perform it also. Traditional pitchers do not

quote:

“on the ball of the foot”

You better look again and when you do use High-speed close in video to make the diagnosis.

quote:

“Hence, track spikes are only on the ball of the shoe”

Plantar flexion is the hence here! We want this foot to drive also in the pitching motion not stop it.

quote:

”Comparing pitching to running or walking is moronic”

Yes and when you participate in a discussion about kinesiology and somebody mentions that the actual correct athletic motion is unathletic it opens the discussion up to comparisons. Then other people join in and complain about the comparisons after having themselves joined in by making their own opinions known.

quote:

“Totally different set of kinetics”

I agree, the drive mechanic I am proposing even if not performed all the way eliminates most of the stress we are trying to in those already injured, I have found it to be a more powerful mechanic also. Two legs are better than one.

Coach2709,

quote:

“You know what Yardbird I believe you are correct”

The question here is are you believable?

quote:

“That is the best post I've seen you post so far and it's opened my eyes”

Provoking thought in youth players is my main goal, We coaches are capable of learning also.

quote:

“I'm going to go back and re-read everything you've put”

Will you please delete all the past sophomoric banter and name calling that is used here.

quote:

“research Marshall mechanics so I can start coaching my players the correct way”

Try the second base pick off that Marshall used, its incredible and puts the lead off of second back 10 feet or you will get picked off. Just perform the incredible 1/2 reverse drill that teaches you to isolate your lats and triceps off the bump.
There are so many gems of wisdom there, I can't see why so many balk or maybe it is just a few and they are vocal while the other ones are learning some of this and want to keep it to them selves, this is actually the way sports is oriented, towards secrecy for advantage, who knows?

quote:

“Thank you for the eye opening experience”

Although I would like the coaches of America to join in to rid us of all these injuries I have found they fight the information when first confronted with it as I was. There are exceptions though, many coaches are willing to look at this maturely and these coaches have somewhere to go.

quote:

“By the way this kool aid tastes GREAT!!!!”

Warning!! Use only suger and water in Kool aid no matter what the flavor.

quote:

“Do you have any more???”

I’m going to keep posting my findings.
I’m going to keep posting my findings.
I’m going to keep posting my findings.

Are you going to keep chiding me by using old warn out clichés that some one else coined (quit funny the first time) then repeated by you as original.

quote:

“You guys need to try the kool aid. I think it's cherry”

Don’t make Cherry look bad! Cherry garners the highest percentage of market share and besides it was probably the only flavor they had, please keep religion out of this.

Have any of you tear jerkers helped this kid (as usual) yet! Put up and explain what he is supposed to do or quit complaining about someone with an actual answer.

Everybodyies answer is keep pitching with the same injurious mechanics that are producing these injuries as if they have not been doing so, get curious.

Highheat55,
Striding across you’re field (imaginary line between home and second) driveline
to the ball arm side sets you up for the foot and leg closing in action that ultimatly over twist stresses you’re knee at finish.

It is best to stride to the glove arm side of the driveline to attain leg and foot simultaneous rotation

YardBird,

You seem to know it all, and have the advice for every one so I will not even bother to respond much to your answers. But since you are so high on Mike Marshall, here is a little info on his philosophies.

It is obvious he developed these theories after his many years of pitching. This is a red flag. I would never take advice from a Coach who never practiced what he preached. If Dr. Marshall would have tried his techniques he would have found that his theories are useless.

All of his videos are about preventing elbow injury. He is saying through his many years of scientific study, he found that during pitching, these small muscles around the elbow are being over developed and causing restricted range of motion. So his techniques are based on changing the pitching delivery to prevent this over development of these small muscles.

This is absurd! This would be like advising a Nascar driver to drive on only two wheels at a time to prevent wearing his tires out.

Where Dr. Marshall missed the boat was the revolution of baseball through Strength Training. He never mentions this new world of sport specific training because more than likely he doesn’t even know it exists.

What we have learned through strength training is that we can rebuild joint integrity in the weight room. We can prevent over development in the small throwing arm muscle with a good joint integrity program. This way we do not need to degrade our performance as an athlete/pitcher to prevent injury.

It is unfortunate that someone like Dr. Marshall believes in these absurd theories because he has brought a lot of good information to the pitching world.

quote:

It stays flexed until heal touch down then neural signaled to then extend the foot into Plantar flexion rolling forwards as I have explained we want our pitchers to perform it also. Traditional pitchers do not


quote:
“on the ball of the foot”

You better look again and when you do use High-speed close in video to make the diagnosis.

The heel never touches on sprinters, you'd better check your high speed video again.

YARDBIRD: NEWTON WOULD DISAGREE...WITH YOU!!!

You can not push the earth...no human is strong enough.

NEWTON'S III LAW: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Because pitchers can not push the earth, the mini collision on foot plant travels back up the hip and transfers through the core. This is where Marshall's theories fall apart. If you were running and tried to throw an object with no pause or hesitation in your stride, you could not throw that object as hard, as far, or as accurately as when compared to coming to a foot plant and throw. Please use Marshall's x-frames-per-second-camera to disprove this; you can't. You would find that if your pitcher TM used all of Marshall's tenets (actually pronation does not belong to Marshall; pitchers where using it before his mom was born) TM's velocity and control would suffer as is typical of all of Marshall's pitchers. I think we may have seen a mixed Marshall pitcher on ABD on Monday. He had a walking stride and was coming over the top...He got shelled.

NIC15,

quote:

“You seem to know it all”

The goal is to keep learning.

quote:

“have the advice for every one”

I normally stay out of the traditional mechanic posted arguments but jump in when a youth player or concerned parent asks for advice on these injurious mechanics, what they produce and why. I would like to see all youth players have a chance to see the information even if Dad does not want them to.
I realize this is new information and will cause consternation and thought, I see this as a positive.

quote:

“I will not even bother to respond much to your answers”

How can you write this and then respond?
I want you to respond and also use your eyes and open mind.

quote:

“But since you are so high on Mike Marshall”

While I do tend to like his honesty, transparency and theory it is the incredible outcomes that we have produced that make me so positive about his information, I believe he could deliver a better marketing campaign, maybe by charging?

quote:

“here is a little info on his philosophies”

I will read and see if you understand what he is trying to convey!

quote:

”It is obvious he developed these theories after his many years of pitching.”

This is false and completely without merit, You’re observations lead you to this bad information?

He developed his top half component while earning his doctorate studying the traditional mechanic and playing all while trying to eliminate upper half injuries.

quote:

“This is a red flag. I would never take advice from a Coach who never practiced what he preached”

You may have something here but what he theorized first with the bottom half he actually performed tested when he retired and played in high level adult leagues for years.
Many people have performed Marshall’s Bottom half drive mechanism including all my youth pitchers and there are many High school players that are performing them, the problem is the only ones that are given a chance are rural kids and none of the suburb and city kids are handed the ball. One of Marshall’s personally trained pitchers actually played in MiLB AA last year, Hmmm, Marshall theorized the mechanic before he perfected it physically. This is a white flag not a red one because I give up, not!

quote:

“If Dr. Marshall would have tried his techniques he would have found that his theories are useless”

You’re telling someone who has proven that the techniques work they are useless, think about it a minute, then shake yourself.

quote:

”All of his videos are about preventing elbow injury”

This is absolutely false and with out merit, this bad information either means you have not witnessed one of his videos in completion or are just distorting the truth on porpose?

While the information on how the elbow works is voluminous it is only a small part of the pedagogy.
His mechanics eliminate all of the traditional injuries. Shoulder, elbow, back, hip, knee ankle, ligament, tendon, meniscus, muscle that in turn eliminates inflammation and the perceived fatigue that mystically now disappears that allows us to pitch every day.

quote:

“He is saying through his many years of scientific study”

He can pretty much do this!

quote:

“he found that during pitching”

This is what a good overhead-throwing kinesiologist does.

quote:

“these small muscles around the elbow are being over developed”

This is absolutely false and with out merit, who gave you this bad information?

You have this backwards, the small muscles around the elbow he wants highly developed! and attains it with his overload drills.

quote:

“causing restricted range of motion”

This is absolutely false and with out merit, who gave you this bad information?

Bone crashing causing deformation limits you’re elbows range of motion and this is where the pronation component comes in.

quote:

“So his techniques are based on changing the pitching delivery”

Yes, do you think any body else is going to do it? They have had their shot and look where we are. This is what is “absurd”!

quote:

“This would be like advising a Nascar driver to drive on only two wheels at a time to prevent wearing his tires out.”

No this would be like a comparing one form of left turn circuit baseball to another form of left turn circuit Nascar where they actually use the ball of the foot that in the words of.the now correct Ag19dad “moronic”.

quote:

Where Dr. Marshall missed the boat was the revolution of baseball through Strength Training

He’s one of the ones that helped build the boat, the work that the Michigan state team of kinesiologists including one of it’s pioneers Prof. Heusner (the father of the ”sport specificity” tenet in exercise physiology) and Marshall were the first ones to describe the kinesiological actions of throwing and pitching, what are you talking about that ship has sailed.

quote:

“He never mentions this new world of sport specific training because more than likely he doesn’t even know it exists”

His professors wrote the book on it, what are you talking about? The only reason you know the phrase is because of him! Here is one of my students getting as “sport specific” as it can get by overload training his pitching motion, see him throw the 6 lb. Ladies shot put, watch him isolate his Lat’s and triceps in this overload training portion of his interval training program.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xY482B-MwN8

Let me see what you think is “sport specific” and I will let you know if you have the meaning correct. I suspect you do not like many in the training field (rank novices and traditional) and think general weight training and light beginning rehab surgical tubing that Jack (J-bands) LeLane invented is Sport Specific when it is not.

quote:

”What we have learned through strength training is that we can rebuild joint integrity”

This is absolutely false and with out merit, who told you this bad information

Joints are made of bone and the integrity (formation, solidity and range) once lost can never be gained back.

quote:

“We can prevent over development in the small throwing arm muscle with a good joint integrity program.”

With you’re general non “sport specific” training that you use, you cannot control the compound nature of the over head throw in the overload realm, you’re mechanic is to injurious.
There is no such thing as over development with in the “sport specific” training regimen, only with in the isolate muscle drills the way you have been taught to train.

quote:

“This way we do not need to degrade our performance as an athlete/pitcher to prevent injury.”

Performance only goes up when you get stronger sport specifically.
Performance goes up minimally from non sport specific training regimens, all highly educated performance coaches know these tenets and use them, only baseball is lagging in this information.

quote:

”It is unfortunate that someone like Dr. Marshall believes in these absurd theories”

They are no longer theories for some and the only thing absurd is not being curious.

quote:

“because he has brought a lot of good information to the pitching world”

I wonder if you have even gotten these right? I hope so for your son’s sake? What are some and don’t just give me one?

This quote is so apropos
“When baseball has been your whole life, you can't think about a future”

Ag19dad,

quote:

“The heel never touches on sprinters, you'd better check your high speed video again”

The goal is to touch it less but touch it does! In this field there has been a ragging controversy about running barefooted because the way the Kenyans train where they barley touch the heel first so they perform the movement more efficiently but when they put shoes on they touch harder with their heel.

What you propose breaks another Kinesiological tenet “the Kinetic chain” where you must contract joint to joint with in the best pedal action of the foot. Asking it to do something it was not designed to do is a recipe for disaster, in this threads case it set up
Lateral twist in the knee that it cannot withstand.

Here is a diagram showing the timing and mass transfer.



Here is an image of the action




MTS,

quote:

“YARDBIRD: NEWTON WOULD DISAGREE...WITH YOU!!!”

You’re yelling! Calm down, mechanics should not make you so upset, it makes it look like you have realized the negative information that you have passed on to Marshall through miss-understanding in the past and currently is controlling you’re emotions.

quote:

”You can not push the earth...no human is strong enough”

Do not confuse inertia with strength!

Any inertia gained can be measured; pushing towards second actually affects the Earth.
Any inertia you have stopped can be measured, pushing towards home actually affects the Earth, ”Newton’s III Law: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.”
It can be measured, this is a scientific fact. Physics do not change because you did not see the earth move.

quote:

”Because pitchers can not push the earth”

Athletes do push the Earth. In the traditional pitching mechanic groin drive the Earth is pushed towards second then pushed towards home. We are trying to make it all push towards second base.

quote:

“the mini collision on foot plant travels back up the hip and transfers through the core”

You are repeating your self and I have asked you before to explain your self but you then shut down and do not answer the question! How is this energy stored? What is the mechanism? Previously gained inertia then stopped long before the ball starts forwards has not been conserved for use with in the next contractions. This is a fact. Look at the slow mo of Lincecum his ball does not start towards home until he has come to a complete stop where many frames go by during his mid forearm transition

quote:

“This is where Marshall's theories fall apart”

These are Newton’s theories used by Marshall and have not fallen apart; they have been miss-understood by you.

quote:

“ If you were running and tried to throw an object with no pause or hesitation in your stride”

You would then be able to add the forwards inertia of the bodies mass to the overall release velocity number, if this mass has stopped before the ball is moving forwards it is now lost.

quote:

“you could not throw that object as hard, as far, or as accurately as when compared to coming to a foot plant and throw”

All of my pitchers throw faster from the outfield because they can conserve their body’s mass inertia better than when on the mound.

quote:

“You will find if your pitcher TM uses all of Marshall's tenets”

He would never be injured.
He would be able to pitch a full game every 3rd day or pitch both ends of a double header.
He would be able to pitch his pitch types more towards his center mass axis allowing him to throw them even more accurately and with more life (Yard speak for movement).
He would able to train and pitch competitively year round.
I can go on and on but then I have actually tested this material and know what it actually produces.

quote:

“pronation does not belong to Marshall”

You cannot own an articulation! You can call it out as good, do you now understand this? I have explained it to you in 5 different ways in the past! It is just one component of the MTS. The Marshall Tenet Sum calls out many articulations.

quote:

“TM's velocity and control will suffer as is typical of all of his pitchers”

He is closing in on 100 MPH and has 6 pitches, he just pitched his professional début and threw a 5-inning shut out, what planet are you on and quit rooting against this kid just because he performs Marshall tenets.

quote:

“I think we may have seen a mixed Marshall pitcher on ABD on Monday”

You have tried this tack before and been busted, If you do not know the tenets, how can you understand what you are seeing, quit making up BS to support you’re hatred of a person.

Yardbird: I may know the tenets better than you do. You corrupt them and claim they are the same tenets. Anything to sell your hoopla. I've notice Mills has taken a similar tact: Blow smoke and call it gold.

No you can not push the earth. Your attempt at physics is laughable.

You are such a confused person. I'm not slamming TM, on the contrary: I'm glad to see that he also recognized the BS. Though I am a little concerned, I've seen him bring his elbow up similar to Mark Prior.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F27wWgtemQ

I look at TM and I see a totally "traditional" pitcher. I see almost NO Marshall tenets. His post foot is parallel to the rubber, not facing towards home plate. He has a high leg lift. From this clip, it does not look like he is taking the ball out of his glove with his hand under the ball (could be wrong on that, not good video). At 13 seconds, you can see his throwing arm crossing the acrimonial line (big Marshall no-no). His arm crosses his body when he finishes (another big no-no). The only thing I see him doing is finishing with his front leg towards home plate - and many pitchers do this. However, on some pitches, he continues to fall off to the 3rd base side.

Aren't all these things directly against the Marshall tenets? Aren't all these things part of the "traditional" mechanics? I know yardbird will say that he has to acquiesce in order to be accepted by the baseball community. However, if you give in that much, he really isn't a Marshall pitcher any more. You can't say that he is throwing 96 mph using Marshall mechanics. He is using traditional mechanics with maybe a spattering of Marshall thrown in. He is not a Marshall pitcher. No how, no way. Come on, just because he went to Marshall for a while (or forever), does not mean he is now a Marshall pitcher. All the things listed above are directly against what Marshall teaches and what he says are injurious.

Maybe TM is using the traditional mechanics, not because he won't be accepted by the baseball community, but because he can throw much harder and be much more accurate with more traditional mechanics than Marshall mechanics.

Why would you show a picture of a marathoner when we are talking about sprinting? Two very, very different things. Why are we talking about running mechanics at all? Pitching is pitching and running is running. They are different.

You can momentarily affect the earth. The effect is so small that it is less than neglible and is more than lost relative to random motions of other objects, the atmosphere, etc., so no it cannot be measured. On can infer the effect from basic principles but one cannot measure it directly. Bunch of semantics, who cares? Practically speaking you can't push the Earth.

Stopping one part of the body is certainly useful in transferring momentum to another part of the body. A good firm leg plant with the knee bent or not is useful in generating velocity. When momentum is conserved through forward movement of the body it is not necessarily available to be transferred through the kinetic chain to the ball. Marshall's understanding of physics and engineering mechanics is seriously flawed and he bases much of his approach on that flawed understanding.

As a simplistic example if I take a 195 lb block and pin a 5 lb lever arm to the side of it with a ball at the end of the lever arm and then move that block forward at 10 mph and never stop it then the ball is going to be going 10 mph when it crosses the plate. If instead the block which is moving 10 mph runs into a brick wall and stops almost immediately then the lever arm is going to whip forward projecting the ball at much more than 10 mph. It gets a lot more complicated but in essence that's what happens with a pitcher. There's some tradeoff in how quickly one stops and how much load there is on the knee but continuing through foot plant without stopping the lower body will reduce the potential for velocity.

I'd have to work through the free body diagrams to be certain but if instead of running the block into a brick wall you ran it into a pole such that the block rotated around the pole you'd get more than the 10 mph but less than the speed you'd get from stopping against the block wall. The block rotating around the pole is essentially what Marshall is advocating. Safer, but slower.

What really happens in pitching is that the block is rotating somewhat as well as going forward as it runs into the brick wall and both the momentum due to the forward motion and the rotation is transferred somewhat inefficiently to the ball. Moving forward in a straight line is very definitely not the most effective way to generate velocity. Ask Mariano Rivera who swings his leg around to help generate velocity but compromises by coming down slightly ball of the foot first. Papelbon is another example of a pitcher who helps generate velocity by swinging his leg around as well as driving forward. In his case he lands heel first, plants, stops and rotates around the plant leg then allows the leg/foot to rotate after release. He tends to open up a bit early as a result and strides closed to keep from opening up even earlier. Some other pitchers develop the most velocity by driving nearly straight forward because they can generate more effective hip/torso rotation as a result of staying closed better. There's a trade between developing the most momentum and more efficient transfer of the momentum and the best approach varies from pitcher to pitcher. There isn't one right way to do it.

BTW, they have done a study which showed that the harder you throw the more likely you are to suffer an arm injury. If you want to reduce the likelihood of injury you simply need to throw the ball more slowly. You'll very quickly reduce the likelihood of injury even more because you'll no longer be pitching competitively.

As far as my comment about momentum being lost when pitchers overdo ball of the foot first the momentum is lost because they slow themselves down in order to land ball of the foot first thereby actually losing momentum. (The momentum is conserved it simply goes into the earth where it's effect is negligible.) When a pitcher plants flat or heel first they usually don't slow down the same way going into foot plant and they maintain their momentum so as to transfer it to the torso, the arm and the ball. Once again, momentum has been conserved but in this case more of it has been transferred to the ball.

Thank you CADad, sometimes these discussions make me want to

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MTS:
Yardbird: I may know the tenets better than you do. You corrupt them and claim they are the same tenets. Anything to sell your hoopla. I've notice Mills has taken a similar tact: Blow smoke and call it gold.

No you can not push the earth. Your attempt at physics is laughable.

You are such a confused person. I'm not slamming TM, on the contrary: I'm glad to see that he also recognized the BS. Though I am a little concerned, I've seen him bring his elbow up similar to Mark Prior.





Thank you. I am glad someone else feels the same way. I am tired of seeing these post by YardBird spitting out regurgitated, belief based coaching ideas that are copied and pasted from articles, without having any personal experience with any of the subjects at hand. There is always an answer to everyones post trying to correct them. The true wiseman does not have all the answers, he asks the right questions. I love seeing people like this who take theories from a big name, and consider it gold. It's amazing.

MTS,

This thread is not about TM and you making it that shows you’re real aim.

quote:

“Yardbird: I may know the tenets better than you do”

I hope so! But this is pretty much impossible; you are a detractor so even if you were to test the practices you would be pushing its failure, seen this already in many.

I’m just hopeing your sons were or are fully educated on the materials?
Are they aware you are aware of the materials and now aware you kept it from them?

quote:

“You corrupt them and claim they are the same tenets”

I have not called out anything he performs incorrectly as perfect or even close.

quote:

“Anything to sell your hoopla”

Nothing is being sold, you are on this witch hunt of your own accord.

quote:

“I've notice Mills has taken a similar tact”

Why bring up someone who teaches the traditional pitching motion in a knee injury thread that his mechanics help produce.

quote:

Blow smoke and call it gold

The only smoke I see comes from the detractors whom have no basis for what they say.

I am trying to get to the bottom of this knee problem that you guys keep steering in other directions to confuse the original poster.

quote:

”No you can not push the earth.”

Say it again them maybe you’re assumption will come true for many others.

quote:

Your attempt at physics is laughable

Yet you have not answered any of the questions I have posed to you ever.
I can understand how biophysics is confusing to you.

quote:

” I'm not slamming TM, on the contrary:

Yet this is what you have done, why did you even bring him up? This is a thread about knee pain. TM has nothing to do with this thread. If you want to discuss TM, start a TM thread then **** and moan all you want.
TM is susceptible to this particular injury also even though he scores a higher rating with the MTS on this particular aspect, maybe he won’t need knee replacement surgery until he is 70 cyo instead of 50 cyo.

You’re intent is to attack on personal grounds anything Marshall instead of help this original poster.

quote:

“I'm glad to see that he also recognized the BS”

So, I taught him this supposed BS and you who are totally disconnected think he has recognized what I taught him and continues to pitch this way as some kind of recognition that he is not. You make no sense of this and we are not talking about Marshall or TM in this thread. Why don’t you reopen that Marshall thread that started with hip surgery recovery to stay on both subjects when you want to bash Marshall?

quote:

“I've seen him bring his elbow up similar to Mark Prior.”

Mark Pryor did not bring his elbow up! He left it down through his totally different grabbing then looping action during transition. This shows what you understand about this particular tenet in the forearm transition. You need to quit saying you understand when you do not. Can you’re son site the tenets in the MTS? Forearm Transition is the most important one; do you realize how many different ones there are? If you understood forearm transition you would understand that TM performs midway transition where he gets his last 90 degree outwards rotation of his humerus where he directs his triceps forwards at the back totally different that Mark Prior. This while giving him a lower score on the MTS is much better than traditional one. Priors MTS says that he would attain shoulder degradation from his high guard grab scapular loaded forearm transition mechanic as Marshall predicted when all the Guru’s said he had the best mechanics in the game.

Can MTS say something that will help highheat55 with his knee problem?

Bballman,

quote:

“I look at TM and I see a totally "traditional" pitcher.”

This thread is not about TM and you would not know what to look for even if you had close up High speed video in regards to the MTS.
Did you’re son have the use of the information?

quote:

“I see almost NO Marshall tenets”

This makes perfect sense, you do not have the right resources to do this (video) and you do not understand the tenets anyways by your past posts giving you’re son no access to this valuable information.

quote:

”Aren't all these things directly against the Marshall tenets?”

Since you do not comprehend what has already been written many times let me indulge you one last time. He rated low on the MTS scale but higher than most and he has been critiqued at Marshall’s web site already, you stateing the obvious and not so obvious means anything in a thread about a player’s knee pain.
“

quote:

if you give in that much, he really isn't a Marshall pitcher any more”

This would be you’re interpretation but you would be very wrong here.
Following mechanical tenets voluntarily in any amount can count towards you’re MTS measure. All pitchers can be diagnosed on this same scale whether they are aware of Marshall’s information or not, remember these are just mechanical tenets and the difference is he is very educated in the theory and rates very high on the MTS scale for a crotch driver. Because he is groin driven he will never be able to perfect the top half but who cares if he stays healthy with the (low but better than traditional) proficiency he has attained

quote:

“You can't say that he is throwing 96 mph using Marshall mechanics”

The taller posture more rotational efficiency, forearm transition (mid transition) and pronated pitches give him what he needs to pitch much healthier, the velocity comes from his genetics not mechanics, this is a kinesiological fact and his higher MTS rating from exposure can have me say this. It is only you that can’t say this.

quote:

“No how, no way”

He is not a full Crow step pitcher but attains many of the upper half mechanics that matter. If he were to Crow step off the mound he would not be susceptible to the problems the original poster has complained about.

quote:

“Come on, just because he went to Marshall for a while”

This is what I mean about comprehension with all the detractors, you guys just make it up as you go and really do not engage in an honest or meaningful conversation, Marshall has never seen him physically.

quote:

“Maybe “

You guys deal in a lot of maybe’s, maybe we should discuss the actual thread.

Cadad,

quote:

Why would you show a picture of a marathoner when we are talking about sprinting?

Because he is running and most of the recent information concerning running mechanics
Has focused on the foot and ankle because of this controvercy.
Why would you not be able to put this together? the conversation was about walking, trotting or running that comes closest to a flatter touch but still healed.

quote:

“Two very, very different things”

Two very, very, very similar things only separated by anaerobic to aerobic output.

quote:

Why are we talking about running mechanics at all?

We wer’nt I was, then I was told that the foot works in a different way then the way I was taught by my Kinesiology professors.

Because Marshall is trying to explain how the heal to toe planting position in all forwardly driving athletes perform. We want conservation of previously gained inertia to add not stop by performing a similar mechanic with the foot where you’re body’s mass move in front of the plant foot.

quote:

“Pitching is pitching and running is running. They are different”

Traditional pitching is different, I agree. We want to bring the more efficiant and healthier bottom half component in even if it is not fully attained.

quote:

”You can momentarily affect the earth.”

Physics do not change because someone does not think mathematics work on a micro scale by believing free flying inertia when decelerated does not cause its opposite reation.

quote:

“so no it cannot be measured”

It can be measured just not acurately unless you can guess at the mass of the Earth and get it right.
The Earth has its measured (if we knew it exactly) mass; the human body has its measured (if we knew it exactly) mass.
One colliding with the other has effects on both, this is undeniable.
These affects are known.

quote:

“Bunch of semantics, who cares?

You do, look who is responding.

quote:

Practically speaking you can't push the Earth”

Reality speaking it happens, when a pitcher pushes Earth towards the plate he is not helping his forwards progress and is one of the disconnections in the kinetic chain that starts over again at this point in the delivery.

quote:

”Stopping one part of the body is certainly useful in transferring momentum to another part of the body”

Only posturally for the next contraction! If the forwards mass is converted into angular momentum and maintained to then add the next contractions this would be true this is why batters create both rotational (torso) and linear (arms) forces from a stopped axis mass. This is why traditional pitchers achieve nothing but postural position to the start forwards force on the ball, meaning the leg lift gives you nothing but great posture to then actually contract a pitch. The velocity of you’re mass in a forwards direction is not that much anyways whether you loose it or not, I believe Marshall’s full Crowstep motion only give you about 1 % more probably not enough to matter but then you do not need hip or knee replacement surgery or debilitating back injuries.

quote:

“A good firm leg plant with the knee bent or not is useful in generating velocity”

I agree but not in the way most understand, I agree with bent (flexed) then straightened (extended) for its added propulsion and kinetic overlapping attachment..

quote:

“When momentum is conserved through forward movement of the body it is not necessarily available to be transferred through the kinetic chain to the ball.”

This is absolutely wrong and without merit, if my body’s mass is moving forwards without stopping, any forwards movement is then added as part of the whole.
If this low velocity is then stopped long before any angular conversion it is lost.

quote:

“If instead the block which is moving 10 mph runs into a brick wall and stops almost immediately then the lever arm is going to whip forward projecting the ball at much more than 10 mph.”

If the block has lost its inertial mass back into the ground the inertial mass of the pivoting arm contiuses if it can freely swing forwards not gaining anything there are no more engins working.

quote:

“The block rotating around the pole is essentially what Marshall is advocating. Safer, but slower.”

No, this is not what he is advocating, he is advocating that inertial mass loss (foot plant, Block stoppage against a wall) ends the initial inertial gain and then a new set of contractions now actually throw the ball.

quote:

‘What really happens in pitching is that the block is rotating somewhat”

During this phase the ball is being turned over and actually going backwards

quote:

“Ask Mariano Rivera who swings his leg around to help generate velocity”

Leg swing around gives you nothing in return because is is then stopped and lost long before the ball actually starts forwards.

quote:

“BTW, they have done a study which showed that the harder you throw the more likely you are to suffer an arm injury.”

Does this information help highheat15. Velosity does not injure someone with non injurious mechanics, did the study include these.

quote:

“Marshall's understanding of physics and engineering mechanics is seriously flawed”

Marshall is not posting here! and you based this opinion on flawed understanding.

How would Cadad help highheat55?


NIC15,

quote:

“Thank you. I am glad someone else feels the same way”

MTS, you have a simple cheer leader now and I only see you 4 posting negatively with almost 650 views, anyone else want to join this team in confusing .

quote:

“without having any personal experience with any of the subjects at hand”

What does this mean?

quote:

“The true wiseman does not have all the answers, he asks the right questions”

Then why will none of you answer any question that I have asked.

quote:

I love seeing people like this who take theories from a big name, and consider it gold. It's amazing.

The difference is I have tested the information on 100’s of players already making you’re statement resemble the rest.

So, here we are! You detractors believe keeping the twisting action of the flawed traditional glove side leg post will magically alleviate this posters knee problems he gained from this particular mechanic in the first place. You guys reduce your understanding to how the foot lands rather than by the resulting lock in then later debilitation of the knee by body rotation above the knee.

I believe if he released his locked in foot by rolling across the foot and turning it with the leg the way the foot is designed to perform when we walk, trot and run by releasing the twisting pressure in the knee at rotation of the body above the knee that will alleviate the problem.

I sure hope highheat55 makes the right choice.

I have already stated what I think his problem may be. And No I am not being anyones cheer leader, I am simply stating the fact that it's funny how you have all of the answers for everyone. And you say you have tested on 100's of players. Tell me when you are speaking with them, do you use the same terminology that you spit out here, when you speak to them? I wonder how many people look at you like you have a million heads. Either way, regardless of what anyone says, you will never think you are wrong, so that is why I do not even bother talking with you.

Yardbird, it matters what TM is doing because you are giving the young man advice about his knee, when either 1) you are not teaching these same mechanics you are telling this kid to use or 2) you have a student (TM) who totally disregards your teachings, yet you proclaim him as one of your Marshall students because he may be getting a big contract. So one question is, did you teach him to throw with a "low MTS" score, or did you teach him to throw with all the Marshall tenets and he ignored you? If he ignored you, it says something about what you are teaching. If you taught him to throw this way, then you are a hypocrite. You really shouldn't teach one thing and then tell everyone else they should do something a different way.

Practice what you preach. If it is OK for TM - your student - to do things traditionally (with a low MTS score), then it should be OK for everyone.

And by the way, I can tell enough from the video that TM is not a high score MTS. Even you admit he doesn't score high.

Sorry, I won't limit it to Marshall. It is obvious from what you've written that your understanding of physics and engineering mechanics is seriously flawed. I did my graduate work in engineering mechanics.

Do you get some sort of thrill from taking peoples comments out of context and then trying to refute them using nonsensical terminology to try to further confuse the issue? Or do you actually believe the stuff you've written? Can you even understand what you've written? Either way, I feel sorry for you.

Hey kid, you may be doing something that is hurting your knee. We don't know what it is. Stop pitching for a while until if feels better then go see a good pitching instructor in your area.

I've often wondered what it would feel like to run waist high in molasses...(hey....maybe it's because I love 'em....alright?!) lol

After reading Yardbird's posts I think I know what that feeling would be like.

Yardbird...I hate liars, crooks, and charlatans.

NIC15,

quote:

“No I am not being anyone’s cheer leader”

You seem then to crave validation from your cheer. My opinion is that landing Ball or flat first violates he articulation properties of the foot in the forward’s transfer of mass. No big deal
Its OK if you think otherwise. There were other posters whom believe ball first was optimum, you did not attack them nor their ideas.

quote:

“I am simply stating the fact that it's funny how you have all of the answers for everyone”

I have an opinion, as do you, I don’t see the humor in either. I bring positive Kinesiological information to mitigate this injury, so did you and you have an opposite opinion, that does not have to automatically turn on you’re rage.

quote:

“you have tested on 100's of players”

Yes they all have taught me plenty.

quote:

“ Tell me when you are speaking with them”

I am at the same time demonstrating using motor skill drills and training aids all the while explaining and re-explaining same material in different learning techniques at many differant times to suit each individual with the help of the parents.

quote:

“do you use the same terminology that you spit out here”

Yes, but much more scientifically oriented with them than here! Most of them are scientifically and verbally way ahead of where I was at their age. They pretty much get it by the time they mature at about 16 cyo, it works to our advantage when they can explain what they are doing to their coaches so that the coaches do not de-evolve them by coaching in reverse. About the time they say I ulnar flex my wrist to throw that Sinker and radial flex my wrist to throw the P.Cutter the coaches silently blend into the background and quit bothering them about their funny mechanics then let them call their own game unless the coach just has to in which case 2 of the 6 pitches will be called.

As long as I’m spitting Koolaid when I use this terminology the kids understand it..

quote:

“I wonder how many people look at you like you have a million heads”

Medusa I’m not, is this a regional chid? I’m not familiar with this terminology.

quote:

“Either way”

Well, I now know the “regardless of what any one says”, what’s the other one?

quote:

“regardless of what anyone says”

You are saying here that other posters are saying I would admit I’m wrong!
They are right, when I am wrong I will admit it.

quote:

“you will never think you are wrong”

You have come to this conclusion after only a few posts?
Hope I never end up in a fishing trip with you!

quote:

“so that is why I do not even bother talking with you”

This is where the molasses comes in! Then maybe you should have done that from the beginning, I was only talking to highheat55, all the youth pitchers and concerned (this would be the mothers) parents.

Bballman,

quote:

“it matters what TM is doing”

Not if you do not understand what he is doing by going off subject, I’m not the subject and neither is TM, this is you’re witch-hunt. Answer my question! Is or was you’re son aware of the Marshall information??? I’ll ask again if you want.

quote:

“because you are giving the young man advice about his knee”

You should do the same; I just gave my opinion on how to mitigate the problem.

quote:

“you are not teaching these same mechanics”

Again comprehension is important, I told you previously that TM will suffer from these same knee stresses, should I go over it in more detail so you will get it this time or less?

quote:

“you have a student (TM) who totally disregards your teachings”

I have explained to you many times before and I have explained to you that I explained it to you before, please comprehend because this molasses is getting close to my chin.
I’m the one who taught him to "disregard" Marshall’s bottom half teachings until…

quote:

“yet you proclaim him as one of your Marshall students

I did not expose him, you and your team of Marshall haters is using him to falsely claim things that do not exist. Leave him out of this besides he outed himself in the LA times and I think that is how Bee&Deebate (baseball debate) found it. Tell’em Dee.

quote:

“he may be getting a big contract”

Done deal! I’m still waiting for you to get something right so I can agree?

quote:

“So one question”

Again, you guys want me to answer all you’re questions but will not answer mine!

quote:

“did you teach him to throw with a "low MTS" score”

He worked on every aspect, you have to so you will not catastrophically injure yourself when performing the “sport specific”overload interval program, and he scored much higher in proficiency with the MTS when he was younger. He has digressed

quote:

“or did you teach him to throw with all the Marshall tenets and he ignored you?”

That’s two questions and this is really getting monotonous.

quote:

If you taught him to throw this way, then you are a hypocrite

No, I am a yellow striped down the back coward for backing down to the baseball establishment mentality by acquiescing to keep working with pitchers and not just batters.
But since no High school or College coach will hand a full Marshall kid the ball I will have to live with this absurd shame. Are you happier now?

Would you hand one of them the ball?

quote:

“You really shouldn't teach one thing”

You’re telling me! This acquiescing is a birch and I’m getting sick of it when the full Crowstep version is so superior in every way including holding runners on, it virtually eliminates the running game.

quote:

“then tell everyone else they should do something a different way”

I’m not telling them to do it a different way, remember comprehension.

quote:

Practice what you preach

Go watch our training videos and pop off.

quote:

“If it is OK for TM - your student - then it should be OK for everyone”

It is OK to mix them! Do you think any one of my clients performs them the same?
I even have really good pitchers whom refuse to acquiesce and perform their tryouts in Full Marshall motion, the first thing that happens is all scrimmages stop then the axe comes down. Then these great athletes moveon to different sports.

I have done this, I am asking that everybody start with the pronated pitches then try to get straightened out then rotate through your forearm early transition, just because the leg lift is useless does not mean you cannot use it for rhythm to attain postural angulations to then contract the ball. Marshall himself has a leg lift mechanic mixed with his top half mechanics also; it’s just not optimal. Comprehension is really necessary here to avoid re-explaining this to you again since I have made a vow to answer every body’s questions and you may take advantage of this knowledge and ask mundane repeaters over and over making my vow now a curse.

quote:

“do things traditionally (with a low MTS score)”

Since these mechanical tenets are broken into top half and bottom half, you should pose you’re questions with in these constraints or I will not understand what you are talking about and have to explain it again. Man this molasses tastes good, I’m gonna need a snorkel.

CADad,

quote:

“It is obvious from what you've written that your understanding of physics”

Physics, I did OK with, not so well but I got all that easy Newton material aced.
For some reason before I believe anything I have to test it first

quote:

“engineering mechanics is seriously flawed”

Where? None of you have made a case or description that fits what we were even talking about. How about that Block and swing arm inertia model hitting a solid wall debacle, where the inertia of the swing arm was not calculated, sheer genius. I guess the affect of the block had no effect on the Earth also. At what mass does it take to start the affect on Earth? Come on guys!

quote:

“ I did my graduate work in engineering mechanics”

No wonder, great another Nineman, using static engineering to figure out conservation of inertia through biomechanics movement where hundreds of engines are at play, not the same thing, much more complicated especially when you do not posses the tools to diagnose it correctly.
Why do you think you know anything about Biomechanics? that’s like an orthopedic surgeon teaching pitching mechanics or Kinesiology, not going to get it right and are going to perform the sport specific rehad incorrectly as they have also.

quote:

’”Do you get some sort of thrill from taking peoples comments out of context”

Only when I can cut off the BS at the end of the sentence to make the comment more Ironical as in this one.

quote:

“then trying to refute them”

I was the one being refuted; I was just giving my opinion, remember you cannot use revisionist history where there is a record of its existence one page back

quote:

“using nonsensical terminology”

What’s nonsensical mean so I can avoid the deeper conversations with you in the future?

quote:

“to try to further confuse the issue?

There is nothing confusing about staying taller striding shorter and to the glove side of the field driveline then turn your foot with your leg although I do believe I just lost you by your last sentence, sorry. I’m glad the kids understand this stuff.
These continuing ironies keep manifesting themselves in the few dogged Marshall detractors.

quote:

Or do you actually believe the stuff you've written?

Testing gives me this privilege and confidence.This should not be a threat to you.

quote:

Can you even understand what you've written?

Give me an example, being general in personal attack alegations is so confusing.

quote:

Either way, I feel sorry for you.

Thank you!!! This is daunting, I think I’m one of the only clinical instructors that has looked into this and this SoCal baseball establishment is hell bent on not letting it have its chance, we don’t have the luxury of a bar like Fosbury.
I could just go back to traditional to reap the rewards like it was before but I can’t since I tested it all out and it works even better than predicted so I can’t.

Warning!!! to all private and school coaches, if you try these tenets you will be ethically stuck with them and not be able to return to primitive version of pitching

quote:

Stop pitching for a while until if feels better

Here we go the downward spiral to oblivion.

Work on changing the destructive mechanics that cause the stress and you can still pitch and it will feel better

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“then go see a good pitching instructor in your area”

This person will ensure that the stress will remain and probably increase, they all pretty much teach the same thing and you are already doing what they teach. You can teach yourself better than any of them by using the resourse that I gave you.

YoungGunDad,

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“I've often wondered what it would feel like to run waist high in molasses”

That’s not the substance I’ve been wading through! And I’m not talking about Koolaid.

MTS,

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“Yardbird...I hate liars, crooks, and charlatans.”

I agree with you in totality here!!!!!!! But listen to you guys escalate the personal attacks, this snottyness is going to get the moderators involved as is you’re plan, I will not go there, I wish to keep helping youth players play injury free. I hope you’re quotes do not get the thread removed as in the distant past.

I posted this on May 10 of this year in another thread:

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Originally posted by MTS:
.....

Ps...I love it when glorified PE Teachers and coaches claim to know more than medical doctors. I think that is called practicing medicine without a license in most states.

quote:

Originally posted by Yardbird:

Bballman,

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“it matters what TM is doing”

Not if you do not understand what he is doing by going off subject, I’m not the subject and neither is TM, this is you’re witch-hunt. Answer my question! Is or was you’re son aware of the Marshall information??? I’ll ask again if you want.

The subject of TM relates to your credibility on giving advice to this young man. I have given my son much information on pitching. You may say at least one part of it is Marshallian. Since long before I ever heard of Marshall, he was taught to pronate his pitches, his breaking ball in particular. Long before either myself or the people I consulted with about his pitching had ever heard of Marshall, he was told not to “turn the doorknob” (or supinate) his breaking ball. As for the rest of the Marshall tenets, I have not found any credible evidence that it is worth going to them, so I have not passed them on. TM is a good example of why I wouldn’t. I would love for him to throw 96mph and get a huge contract to play in the MLB.

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[QUOTE] “because you are giving the young man advice about his knee”

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You should do the same; I just gave my opinion on how to mitigate the problem. ”

I would love to give some advice to the young man, however, I have not seen him pitch yet, so it would be irresponsible to give advice about something I have not seen. That is part of my problem with you and other Marshall guys I have debated with. Sight unseen, you give advice and mechanical criticisms. Do you not think it would be better to see what you evaluate first?

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[QUOTE] “you are not teaching these same mechanics”

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Again comprehension is important, I told you previously that TM will suffer from these same knee stresses, should I go over it in more detail so you will get it this time or less? ”

Then why not work harder to get him to perform a supposedly “non-injurious” mechanic?

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[QUOTE] “you have a student (TM) who totally disregards your teachings”

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I have explained to you many times before and I have explained to you that I explained it to you before, please comprehend because this molasses is getting close to my chin.
I’m the one who taught him to disregard Marshall’s bottom half teachings until…”

I hear that you taught him to ignore Dr. Marshall’s teachings. That is part of my problem with what you say. You tell some students to ignore his teachings, yet you get on a message board and tell someone else – whose mechanics you haven’t even seen – to use the Marshall bottom half. It is hypocritical.

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[QUOTE] “yet you proclaim him as one of your Marshall students

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I did not expose him, you and your team of Marshall haters is using him to falsely claim things that do not exist. Leave him out of this besides he outed himself in the LA times and I think that is how Bee&Deebate (baseball debate) found it. Tell’em Dee. ”

You don’t have to expose him. It is well known on this board and others that TM is a student of yours. It matters not how it got out there that this is the case, what matters is that you taught him to ignore Marshall, yet you tell others to practice the same tenets that you told TM to ignore.

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[QUOTE] “he may be getting a big contract”

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Done deal! I’m still waiting for you to get something right so I can agree? ”

Excuse me for not being right up to date on when his contract was signed.

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[QUOTE] “So one question”

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Again, you guys want me to answer all you’re questions but will not answer mine! ”

I am trying to answer your questions. Doing what you do in these posts is very time consuming.

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[QUOTE] “did you teach him to throw with a "low MTS" score”

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He worked on every aspect, you have to so you will not catastrophically injure yourself when performing the “sport specific”overload interval program, and he scored much higher in proficiency with the MTS when he was younger. He has digressed”

Looks like his digression has earned him a lot of money!!

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[QUOTE] “or did you teach him to throw with all the Marshall tenets and he ignored you?”

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That’s two questions and this is really getting monotonous. ”

It really was just a two part question.

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[QUOTE]If you taught him to throw this way, then you are a hypocrite

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No, I am a yellow striped down the back coward for backing down to the baseball establishment mentality by acquiescing to keep working with pitchers and not just batters.
But since no High school or College coach will hand a full Marshall kid the ball I will have to live with this absurd shame. Are you happier now? ”

Would you hand one of them the ball? ”

Glad to see you admit that you have a fault. It is much easier to back off what you teach in the real world than to stick to your guns in an anonymous forum where the student can’t tell you that they don’t understand or are not comfortable with what you are saying. To be honest, I might – if they were effective. There are many different pitching styles. Some of them I see, shake my head in wonder and let them continue if they are effective. There are over the top guys, ¾ guys, side armers, submariners, full effort guys, smooth guys, herky-jerky guys, etc… If they are effective, I would let them throw and make minor tweaks. If they were ineffective, they wouldn’t last very long.

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[QUOTE] “You really shouldn't teach one thing”

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You’re telling me! This acquiescing is a birch and I’m getting sick of it when the full Crowstep version is so superior in every way including holding runners on, it virtually eliminates the running game. ”

Then quit acquiescing!!

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[QUOTE] “then tell everyone else they should do something a different way”

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I’m not telling them to do it a different way, remember comprehension. ”

You ARE telling them to do it a different way than what Marshall teaches. Remember, you just said that you told TM to ignore Marshall’s bottom half mechanics.

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[QUOTE]Practice what you preach

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Go watch our training videos and pop off. ”

Not exactly sure what to say to that.

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[QUOTE] “If it is OK for TM - your student - then it should be OK for everyone”

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It is OK to mix them! Do you think any one of my clients performs them the same?
I even have really good pitchers whom refuse to acquiesce and perform their tryouts in Full Marshall motion, the first thing that happens is all scrimmages stop then the axe comes down. Then these great athletes moveon to different sports.

I have done this, I am asking that everybody start with the pronated pitches then try to get straightened out then rotate through your forearm early transition, just because the leg lift is useless does not mean you cannot use it for rhythm to attain postural angulations to then contract the ball. Marshall himself has a leg lift mechanic mixed with his top half mechanics also; it’s just not optimal. Comprehension is really necessary here to avoid re-explaining this to you again since I have made a vow to answer every body’s questions and you may take advantage of this knowledge and ask mundane repeaters over and over making my vow now a curse. ”

So, if it is OK to use the leg lift, and you want to teach things a little at a time, I really don’t understand how you can make a judgement about someones mechanics without ever having seen them? What if this kids bottom half mechanics are acceptable within the Marshall guidelines? To immediately assume that his mechanics are flawed without seeing them is irresponsible. You taught TM to ignore Marshall’s bottom half mechanics. Maybe this kid’s bottom half is OK, but needs just a little tweak. Can’t know until you see.

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[QUOTE] “do things traditionally (with a low MTS score)”

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Since these mechanical tenets are broken into top half and bottom half, you should pose you’re questions with in these constraints or I will not understand what you are talking about and have to explain it again. Man this molasses tastes good, I’m gonna need a snorkel.

Once again, you taught TM to ignore the bottom half mechanics, yet you critique this kid’s bottom half mechanics without having seen them. If it is good enough to tell one person to ignore Marshall’s tenets – bottom or top – then you should not be critiquing someone else’s.
There you go Yard, I have tried to address everything you brought up. Don’t accuse me of not answering your questions. I also think you need to be more responsible with passing out advice – sight unseen, especially when it contradicts what you are teaching other students.