Let's define elite...

I don't always have a positive view of "elite." Sometimes it seems like a synonym for "expensive."

Gets ranked in national rankings by some source?

Probably with elite, comes $$$ cost. Or a team appears on some list that ranks teams either by state or nationally. Player placement at the next level should factor in too. Son played on the oldest and largest national baseball program that has been around since 1925. Is that elite?

I know 2020 is looking for a definition of a true "elite" team.  But the word elite is mostly used as a marker for teams, just like, Black, Premier, Prime.  It's just a name, could as well be "A" team, "B" team etc.  Here in Houston area, the "Nations" tournaments (usually much better competition than USSSA) designate the classifications of their tournaments as "Premier", "Elite", "Select", with Premier the better competition.  My son is on a "Green" team, which must mean money.

Truth is, we have found that the truly "elite" or the best organizations in the country are not usually the most expensive.  However there are many lower level teams that charge big dollars.  I think the reason for this is the best teams are looking for the very best talent, while many of the others are looking for those that can afford to pay them.

Go44dad posted:

Gets ranked in national rankings by some source?

I have been noticing you are a tough grader!  That's an example of how we all look at things differently.  By your definition very very few teams are elite.  By my definition every state has several probably except the smallest states and the larger states my have 15 or 20.  So again its all how you define it.

PGStaff posted:

Truth is, we have found that the truly "elite" or the best organizations in the country are not usually the most expensive.  However there are many lower level teams that charge big dollars.  I think the reason for this is the best teams are looking for the very best talent, while many of the others are looking for those that can afford to pay them.

This is the  best quote ever!! Are we related ?? Lol

PGStaff posted:

Truth is, we have found that the truly "elite" or the best organizations in the country are not usually the most expensive.  However there are many lower level teams that charge big dollars.  I think the reason for this is the best teams are looking for the very best talent, while many of the others are looking for those that can afford to pay them.

However we label them what would be really interesting is to see how many college, D1, drafted and mlb players organizations have produced.  Now I know that may be hard because a lot of these organizations have not been around that long.  But PG would be the perfect  (no pun intended) guy to know this.  Travel teams are usually listed on profiles right?  So can players be sorted by travel team?  Could you produce a list of college commits per travel organizations for 2014, 2015 and 2016?  That would be really interesting info.

IMO it has to start with an age group...

Is there really an elite 10 year old, 12 year old?

we know there's at least one 14 year old!

But seriously I never thought of a player or team as being "elite" until you reach recruiting age, but that is getting pushed back to younger and younger ages.

I am basically in agreement with the OP, how can you state your team is elite if you don't produce a high % of college / pro prospects.

When we say lower level what do we mean?  To me lower level are those teams that have 50% or more of their roster that have little or no chance of playing college ball.  A team that travels around in nice uniforms and matching bags but loses most of their tournament games unless in a very weak tournament.  A team just above rec ball that just wants the experience.  Now mind you I am not criticizing.  Those on here who know my opinions know I don't judge.  If that's something your son enjoys he should absolutely do it.  Now to PG who sees the best of the best all the time.  Future big leaguers constantly teams like the one my son plays on might be lower level.  Maybe even teams better than that?  And I think this is what sometimes causes arguments on here.  When someone says 'lower level' or that teams are just 'money grabbers' people get defensive and the claws come out.  I honestly don't.   Those powerhouse teams I spoke of earlier are way better than my son's team.  So that would put them on a 'lower level'.  But compared to some other teams they are at a very high level.  But when someone comes right out and says they have a negative feeling about travel ball.  Or that it really isn't any better than rec ball.  Or somehow there is a moral high ground...  that's when I ask why?  Why do you feel that way?  If rec ball is best for your son do it!  If a lower level travel team is the right fit then great!  One of best in state?  Fantastic!  Regional powerhouse where majority if not all get drafted?  Wow good for you I am happy for your son!  There are benefits to all.  I just think having some uniform way of looking at it could avoid some conflicts and misunderstanding.

It is all in the eyes of the beholder...not a baseball thing but how many remember Iraq's "Elite Republican Guard"...not so much.  Simple adjective thrown around by anyone who wants to.

Part of the problem is that different states are structured differently. And it also depends on what you are considering to be playing college ball as a measure of their success.  My sons high school team the past couple of years is in no way elite. Yet every senior starter that wanted to play college ball got that opportunity. Not D1, but juco, NAIA.  So I would say that to be elite would require more than just playing at the next level. 

To be honest there are teams that can compete with anyone in a given year, but are not consistant every year. Obviously it all depends on talent and that can change from one year to the next.  Then again, there are certain organizations that are competitive at a national level every year.  There are actually a lot of those type teams, I would guess more than 100, maybe even 200, in the nation.  Some states like California, Florida, Texas and Georgia will have several of these top programs each year. Some states might have only one.  Most all these programs have produced a large number of top prospects, but they don't need to call them selves a showcase team.  They very much are competing to win the big tournaments. They don't worry about exposure that much because they know they will get it and how they will get it.  They have a very good history.  Every once in awhile a new organization pops up and proves they belong. 

There are also many higher level teams a notch below.  But the sad part of travel baseball is the price some people pay to play on a team that doesn't do anything to help their players.  And some of these teams charge the most. 

Many think they are involved with a good program that just plays locally or within their state.  While this could be true, they simply don't know what they are missing.  It is impossible to know what's out there without going out there and finding out.  It just so happens that the majority of first round picks and power college recruits actually come from these top travel organizations.  Check it out!

Interesting that someone would ask about sorting to get a list of alumni from each program.  At some point this year we will have a separate page for every organization that plays in our events.  This page will list the alumni that went on to college or professional baseball. among many other things.  In fact, if teams want it to, they can use this as their own website, but most big organizations would want to keep their own site.

The reason for doing this is to help promote those teams and players that play in our events.  Also to help the scouts and college recruiters that follow players and certain teams.  Instead of going to many sites to gather info, they can go to one site and find all the teams and players.  it will include schedule, rosters, PG data, statistics, etc.  Teams can even enter their own content if they choose. We think it will be a huge benefit to those teams.

The down side I see of using who get to college, drafted, etc. is I see on websites organizations that take credit for who a player goes to college etc. So I My son played 4 season each with a different team, then all 4 would take credit on website for producing him. I think I as general observer of travel ball in Ohio, can easily tell you the top 3-4 organizations.

For some it is age driven. For instance Midland whom is a very national very talent Elite team from 15 / 16u to 18u playing nationally while  it is an average talent wise organization in younger years even locally. While the Ohio Elite  and Cincinnati Flames tend to be good from a young age on but have multiple teams in each grade- one of whom might be Elite, the others not so much. Disclaimer- my son played for none of these teams!

Since 75% of select teams seem to have Elite, I just ignore that word . My son's first team for years was the "Miamisburg Hornets" which is the city it originated from. At 14U it was decided since only 3 players left from Miamisburg, we would be Hornets Elite. We were no better and in some specific younger years much worse than when we were the Miamisburg Hornets. I and my son always laughed about being called "elite"

For youth ball it might be Cooperstown Dreams Park offers the best guide.  Every week 100+/- teams show up.  About 6-10 are excellent.  Another 10-12 are very good but probably have a hole or two maybe only 1 or 2 plus arms.  Could be size as well at that age.

Then there are 50 -60 teams that are average and will rise or fall in the table based on how many of the top or bottom teams they draw.  The have very little chance of knocking off the top 15-20.

Then there are 20 teams that are bad to awful.  They will only win when they play each other.

So if you show up and are one of the top 20 teams you may or may not want to call yourself elite.  I would not unless you had a real chance to be in the semi-final and win.  When my kids went through we were in the 2nd group just below the top tier.  Size and power were our deficiency.

We had a truly elite team across town.  They ultimately won everything in sight including a HS State Championship and was ranked nationally and deservedly so.  We nipped at their heals but they beat us every time. 

From a marketing standpoint, I don't see how any travel team could say they are "just regular kids playing average baseball". That said, since middle school sports are non-existent/generally unfunded, then there has to be a place kids can have fun playing sports. Travel teams are, thankfully, filling a niche. And, since recruiting isn't a big deal in middle school (yet!!), should we really care about the label? 

For the older kids who are finally starting/wanting to figure out where they stand in the hierarchy, I'm fully supportive of getting out there and trying out for 'elite' or 'powerhouse' teams.  In the end, it really doesn't take that much brainpower to figure out whether your kid has "it" when you're at tournements/showcases as are offered in Atlanta. Doesn't matter what your travel team is actually called. Reality sinks in, whether you want it to or not. (I, perversely, enjoyed that part. It was someone else letting my players know, without a doubt, where they stood in that hierarchy of sought-after expertise, physique, attitude!)

as an addendum to my previous post: Maybe we could create a national organization which would be in charge of 'defining' the metrics for AverageJoe-SuperStar-Elite-Powerhouse. Get all sorts of rules and regs in place. Charge everyone a fee! Elect officers! I nominate this entire forum as candidates! JK!! (for those without teens in the house, that means "Just Kidding"!)

Al Pal posted:

as an addendum to my previous post: Maybe we could create a national organization which would be in charge of 'defining' the metrics for AverageJoe-SuperStar-Elite-Powerhouse. Get all sorts of rules and regs in place. Charge everyone a fee! Elect officers! I nominate this entire forum as candidates! JK!! (for those without teens in the house, that means "Just Kidding"!)

that's called the NCAA in college

Many prior threads have discussed the liberal use of Elite, Select, Premier, etc., etc.  It is, as another described, just a moniker.  While it may be a fun exercise here to try to define, those ideas won't go further than the screen you are looking at.  The epidemic is far too rampant.

As far as associating teams with players who advance, perhaps a PG can do it in a manner that has some validity since they actually do deal primarily with legitimately strong organizations, but that is about it.  As CheffMike alluded, just about every mid level (and lower) travel org in the country is trying to take credit where it is not due.

 There was an organization in our parts with a big fancy website who tracked all of "their" players who advanced.  Most of those players filled in maybe one time for a tournament and had no further association whatsoever but this organization had these players, their bio's and plenty of "good luck, do us proud" messages plastered all over their site pages.  Son filled in one time for one game, I think as a 13 y.o. and all through his HS years, all his accolades and such were trumpeted on their website.  He never stepped foot into their "facility".

Sorry, sounds like I need to go take my Debbie Downer meds.   Just one POV.