Great post, PGStaff. One of the quickest, most natural arm actions I saw in this area belonged to a kid who hadn't taken a pitching lesson once in his life. He was upper 80's despite being very short.
Saw him six months later after he took some private lessons, and his velo had plummeted and his arm action was so robotic. Tough to see.
bballman,
First I am not an expert in this area, but as most know my son is a college pitcher and being in SoCal when he was growing up I sought out help as I was not knowledgeable and also read a ton of stuff. I am an engineer so I have always looked at things through and electro-mechanical lens. Which the body is I just don't know all of the physiological details. (which frankly is a lot) What I found was exactly what PG pointed out; there are lots of pitching instructors who really don't understand what they are talking about.
When my son was in HS he did exactly as baseballinstruct suggested, after his game he would go out on a 2-3 mile "flush run".It seemed to make sense at the time. What he also did was take a very cold shower at the end of it, which based on my experience with the sprint coach I mentioned earlier suggested since they had found that Olympic sprinters (he trained with the Olympic team) had better recovery using ice baths. (which BTW are in every training facility in the world now) He is the guy that convinced me that distance running did not make sense, independent of all of the other material coming out on the subject now. Early on I did some research into weighted balls, which Dr Bongonsi did work on 25+ years ago and was criticized for. After talking with the sprint coach and what techniques they use to develop fast athletes it made complete sense to me to do cross training, "under and over" techniques to speed up the body. I also knew that young arms were developing so I never did much with them, since I felt healthy development was important prior to puberty. (which by the way Dr Marshall was spot on, even though some of the other stuff he teaches is a bit obtuse) Now I see what Wolforth and Boddy are doing and it makes complete sense to me. Is it right for you or your son, that is for you to decide.
I am not involved with my son's training but just see what he is doing and his program has been using a variant of the Wolforth weighted ball program very successfully for a number of years. They may "only be D3" but they routinely have the best pitching staffs in the country and routinely get kids drafted. A kid this year was picked up by the Phillies and he is throwing 97. Not bad for a kid who never had a chance as a freshmen. Any way, what I see my son doing is exactly what Cressey, P3 sports, Gym Jones, and his old track coach recommended. He does not run much, if at all, but when they do 1 mile timed runs at his school to check on aerobic health, he runs 5'30 miles, so he is very fit aerobically. BTW he develops his aerobic capacity through rowing, at least that is what he tells me.
So to make a very long story a bit longer, I agree 100% with what PG posted.IMO we really don't know 100% what is going on in the throwing motion, however the knowledge base from what I have seen has exploded in the past 5 years. You can see the results of this in the number of kids throwing over 90 MPH. I don't know this for a fact but I am pretty sure it is based, in part, on the improved training methods being applied to baseball. Guys like Wolforth and Boddy are really doing some great things this area IMO. (BTW I have never met either of them nor spent a dime with either) (I will contact you Kyle one of these days!)
So when I see a "pitching instructor" offer advice here, first am happy that there is a free resource for kids/parents, and I read what is recommended. When it is contrary to what I have learned over the past 9 years, I ask questions. When the answers don't seem quite right then a red flag goes up. When the answers are "well that is what I did 5 years ago in the pros" without a logical explanation then more red flags. Then when challenged even further there is not a logical explanation even more red flags.
I don't want to make this personal at all, "just the facts mam". Most of us here stick around to help others coming up and that is all I am doing. I provide links to what I think someone should look into for their son and they can make the decision.
If it was me I would be sending my son to drivelinebaseball, Wolforth, throwzone, Jaeger sports, and for working out Cressey, P3 sports, Gym Jones.
I am also a believer that "through conflict comes clarity" so and this has been one of the more interesting threads on the subject in a while and for that I thank baseballinstuct, I hope he has learned a few things that he can apply to his craft.
Parents and players can figure out what they want to do on their own and this site continues to be an amazing resource for them.
Have a great Sunday everyone.
I respect the opinions that everyone has on running for pitchers.
I also respect the science that is going into pitching programs and the business that Boddy, Cressey, Etc... are building.
I just don't understand the personal attacks on me as a pitching instructor for not agreeing with some of you. I played for several organizations and played all over the world, exposed to countless pitching coaches, throwing programs, sports psychologists, etc... and have developed a program from that experience that I use in my instruction. Not just what worked for me but what I saw work for several college and professional athletes. The same programs and techniques that I have taught to kids and continues to work. I am not selling anything here, not looking for any approval. If I was harming pitchers or had no experience of my own and called myself an instructor or expert, then by all means educate me. But, the kids that I work currently and in the past have been extremely happy with the results while staying injury free. I continue to perfect my craft as an instructor, still learning - always learning about this great game.
I'll jump back in, because I did feel like Scotty83's post was very intuitive and geared toward a logical discussion. I appreciate that.
That being said, the fact that a longer-distance run isn't harmful does not mean it is optimally beneficial. Scotty83's post highlighted that sprints of 20-30 seconds increase Vo2 uptake and metabolic threshold. My research, BOF's research, and Kyle's research - as well as what has been provided throughout this thread - echo that claim.
This quote was a red flag for me in Scotty83's post: "I peronaly would rather untrained coaches use a mile run because it requires less knowledge of what they are doing."
If a coach is untrained in the act of developing pitchers, taking the lazy way out does not make things better. He should become educated. If running for an extended period of time is not optimally beneficial, and sprinting is, then pitchers should be running sprints. Coaches should know that.
Even if there is research that says that distance running isn't necessarily harmful for pitchers, there is no research that says it is optimal. Why train in a way that does not maximize your abilities?
bbman,
I pretty much agree 100% of what he posted. I agree with Kyle that distance running is not bad, it is just not optimal. (face it baseball players run a lot so D'Oh they have to run some) Running two miles is in fact good, but if it was me I would alternate between repetitive sprints, and maybe some other longer sprints mixed in for aerobic conditioning. Go back and read it carefully and you will see that he has his son run sprints. .
I don't have the knowledge on the lactic acid build up differences. I have read some of these medical papers in the past, and quickly get lost in the medi-technical terms. To really get the full details you would have to have the whole paper to pick out exactly the test conditions and what he is referring to.
As a practical matter for higher level athletes, these programs need to be phased; a body mass gain phase, an explosive phase, and then flexibility and maintenance phase. I don't think you necessarily have to be getting aerobic conditioning during a mass phase, but I am frankly not sure. My one data point 
right now is in a body mass weight gain phase (lower body primarily) as well as his weighted ball program. He is building his aerobic capacity, again through rowing but I don't really know if he is doing this on his own, or if it is part of his program.
This is not for this thread, but I actually question whether some pitchers should not do summer ball and stay home and workout as they will be better, stronger and more effective if they did this. Again maybe I will open a thread on this for discussion.
bbman this is my take on it:
My view is that a instructor should be helping improve his students when he has them do something. Giving them something to do that "does not harm them" and provides moderate benefits is not what I would want to pay someone for. JMO. Doing something just because it was done in the past is also a huge red flag for me, mainly because of the rapid developments that are happening in the field. What else is he missing?
Looking back on my son's development I wish we had found someone like Cressey, P3, Gym Jones, etc, earlier and got him lifting properly sooner. The running he did really did not advance him much as far as I can tell. He had a 5 MPH gain last year, and while not all this was due to his workout routine, I think it was a big part.
As an additional note, I would not have my son go to an instructor who does not have a good high speed video system. As Kyle and PG pointed out you don't want to create throwing robots, but you can not see details in the delivery without it IMO.
To add onto what BOF said above, I don't understand why something would be done if it is not optimal, knowing the exercise that would be optimal. If we know that there is a better alternative to distance running, why not do that?
I didn't get upset that BaseballInstructor50 teaches long distance running. I got upset because he showed continues to show a complete lack of aptitude for learning how to do his job. The methods he preaches are not benefitting his clients and he refuses to understand what he can do to make himself better. Instead of being willing to learn, he cites his past experience as a player as an example of why his teaching methods are right, and mocks science, evidence, and research in a condescending manner. That is not someone who's opinion I respect or someone who I feel deserves to profit off of his inability to teach.
My reactions were less about the content of the thread and more about his reactions to other thoughts.
Understood, and I agree. I stand by my opinion, but I agree. Thank you for your contributions and thoughts, I learned something.
You are on the right track with your routine. Try the following program
Friday - Pitch
Saturday - Light Throw, Distance Run (20 Minute Min)
Sunday - Regular throwing amount, long toss is ok to help with soreness. Distance/Sprint work. Workout routine if you have one
Monday - Bullpen Session (25 - 30 pitches) Work on what you need to work on from previous game. I recommend 3 of each pitch from the wind up and 3 of each from the stetch. command your fastball. Run - whatever you feel up to
Tuesday - Regular throwing or day off is fine, sprint work
Wednesday - "Touch/Feel" bullpen. nice and easy just to keep the feel of the mound. maybe 15 pitches at 60 percent. distance run
Thursday - Light throwing. Sprints
Friday - Dominate
bbman, good point, we certainly did get off track, but there is some great stuff in this thread for a player or dad looking for guidance.
bbman, good point, we certainly did get off track, but there is some great stuff in this thread for a player or dad looking for guidance.
So... he wasn't a witch?
bbman, good point, we certainly did get off track, but there is some great stuff in this thread for a player or dad looking for guidance.
I still think he's absolutely clueless. He also spoke in a condescending nature to those trying to point out that altering his routine may be beneficial to his clients. I don't regret or take back what I said that was directed to the OP and if he has chosen not to take the advice given to him, that he has been run off.
Until BaseballInstructor50 decides to broaden the scope of his knowledge, I strongly recommend that no one takes him up on his services. In other pieces that I've discovered he's written on the Internet, he's advised things such as snapping your wrist to throw a curveball, and to not lift heavy weights as a pitcher because the "small muscle fibers" in the arm are what makes a pitcher throw harder and stay healthy. There's also a piece explaining how to put a substance on a glove so a pitcher can tamper with a ball.
This man is posing as an expert, and is trying to sell his bill of good here. When people approach him with logic, he mocks "science" and questions their "credentials." This man is a detriment to his clients and no one should afford him the opportunity to provide coaching about pitching.
He's plenty far off. I hope he gets run off until he learns something.
*retreating back into the self-evoked "timeout" from this thread*
JH, I don't understand why you are trying to tear down what I do. I've had success and continue to pass it along. I said I respect your opinion. Would hope you respect mine. Respect is a big part of this game.
If you're currently in pro ball in some capacity please ask your colleagues if they think I am clueless or should not be working with young pitchers. You are attacking how I make a living and feed my family. You threw my name out earlier in the thread and now you're knocking me as an instructor. Please ask those around you, your bosses your coworkers about the type of player I was and the type of person I am.
You can ask Strom if I am qualified to teach how to throw a curveball. Ask Rick Short, Area scout with the Diamondbacks about me as a teammate. Craig Shipley how I was as a player or ask Donnie Reynolds.
Once again, I respect your opinion, respect mine.
BaseballInstructor50- I'm not questioning your baseball skills. You were one of the greatest baseball players in the world at your peak. I would never, ever take that away from you. You played in the Major Leagues. That's absolutely incredible. I'm not questioning you as a person. You're very likely an unbelievably nice person. I'd never question someone's personality based on some things on the Internet. What I am questioning is your ability to teach pitching, given the fact that you've shown an unwillingness to learn from examples given to you here. There is no such thing as "flushing" the system, there is no such thing as "snapping" the wrist to throw a curveball. Weightlifting isn't bad. Doctoring a baseball is cheating. Long distance running isn't the optimal way to train. All of these things have been stated, and examples have been given, and you dispute them by mocking science, questioning credentials, and essentially ignoring the sources that were provided. I would love for you to contribute here, and to contribute to the careers of young people. I think having a role model in someone that has reached the pinnacle of the sport that people dream of reaching is an unbelievably fabulous aspect of navigating through the process. But I can't support someone who isn't willing to alter their methods, when it's been proven that the alterations would be an improvement.
I apologize for getting personal. I shouldn't have done that. I was being a jerk. I didn't want to attack you personally. I would love to have a continued, rational conversation about altering teaching methods, if you'd like. I think your experience playing baseball at the highest level combined with new research could be a lethal combination and could be very beneficial for people. That's the truth, in my mind. I got emotional about a silly topic and took it overboard. I'm sorry.
So... he wasn't a witch?
So... he wasn't a witch?
No.
I sent BaseballInstructor50 a PM…or Dialog, whatever it's called. If he accepts my apology for acting like a jerk, I'm hopeful we can tag-team some of this stuff. I'm confident I can do a better job explaining the science than I have here, and it'd be pretty stupid to scare off someone with big league service time.
In the FWIW department, it was my experience that pitching instructors understood pitching mechanics, and at a high level understand workouts but none, at least the ones I met, were ever close to what you could get from someone like P3, Cressey, etc. Wolforth and driveline are kind of unique since they are baseball oriented and specific.
All you have to do is to go and poke around and see what they are doing and you can understand that a pitching coach would never have this knowledge base.
Running 2 miles every so often isn't going to be the death of you. In fact, it might be beneficial. And probably better than doing nothing.
But "better than nothing" is not the standard I hold my players and coaches to. Neither should you. Your coaches should know the tenets of training pitchers and at least have a cursory understanding of the basic research done out there.
I know that's asking a lot (a whole 20-40 hours of independent research instead of relying on what you were told), but if we're into developing pitchers, we owe it to them to learn as much as possible.
Again, if anyone wants to learn on their own instead of wait for an answer - usually the best policy - google what Mark Twight and Lyle McDonald have to say on the subject. It won't be easy to learn right off the bat, but that shouldn't deter you from learning.
I absolutely adore this post and everyone should re-read it. Thanks, Kyle!
Moving along from running. My son (2016) pitches infrequently (usually catches or plays corners) so he doesn't work on his pitching daily. He finds that unless he works on pitching frequently he looses command of his curve ball. No problem with the 4 seam and 2 seam fastball, or change ups, just the curve. Do you have a suggestion on another breaking pitch to learn that might be easier to retain than the curve ball?
sowilson,
Its understandable that your son does not feel comfortable throwing his curveball. His two seam and four seam are similar to the hand position he has when throwing across the diamond or whatever other positions he plays. So naturally those are his most comfortable and commanded pitches. The curveball requires a different hand position but body mechanics dont change. I'd imagine something looks entirely different when he throws his curveball, head tilt, upper body sinking at release, etc... Rather than go into a pitching lesson on curveballs, I think we can get him on track with a better mental game plan. Most kids have a general idea and game plan on their fastballs. They dont think about the shape of the pitch when they release. There is no thought on their fastball from fingertips to catchers glove. Its more focused on getting a good delivery, focusing on the target and letting that sucker fly. On a curveball, pitchers tend to think less about what they are doing in their delivery, less about a target and focus more on what the pitch is going to do from fingertips to catchers glove (shape). Tell your son to throw his curveball like he is throwing his fastball. A good fastball delivery and focus on a target - forget about the shape of the pitch. Remember its not the size of the break that makes a curveball effective, its how similar it looks to a fastball that makes it nasty. I have worked with several kids on trying to throw their curveballs as straight as possible. Sounds weird but it works. A good way to work on this is to have him picture a hula hoop about 5 feet in front of the catcher. Try to throw the curveball straight until it reaches the hoop then allow it to break once its goes through. This will add depth, late break, and deception as his delivery will look like it does on his fastball. Make sure he is staying tall at release - head up, ball down. Hope this helps!
If I recall correctly Kyle did not play baseball in HS.
That hurts, BOF. I was merely very bad.
As for distance running, the argument isn't as simple as "it's good" or "it's bad." It is closer to useless than it is useful, that is for sure. But the argument is actually fairly complicated. I recommend reading Mark Twight (Gym Jones) and Lyle McDonald (Body Recomposition) on the subject, as they are experts in the fields of anaerobic/anerobic training.
And as for the OP... JH and I both currently work in professional baseball, and I consult for some of the best colleges in the nation as well. (Including the 2014 CWS champions.)
I promise I'm not handing out long distance running packets to my players. (And neither is Brent Strom, a good friend of mine.)
EDIT: I will say the idea of "flushing" the body by running is particularly funny. Perhaps you can describe the physiological processes that occur when things are "flushed." Or did you mean your bathroom toilet?
+1
I am still wondering (please provide proof) how long distance running flushes out the bad stuff (what exactly is the bad stuff anyway).
This discussion reminds me of those ice or no ice discussions.
A college coach once told me that he leaves the training to the trainer and he teaches.
But many college coaches still require teams to run, same as it is done for spring training, but never to replace other better proven methods offered these days.
TPM
When you pitch for several innings or throw several pitches, the next day you can have some soreness. Running or any other cardio that increases heart rate can help with the soreness. When a pitcher is sore, the cardio feels like you are flushing the crap (soreness) out of your body. After the cardio, you actually feel less sore and much better. That is why it is referred to as a flush run.
Pitch -> get sore
Cardio -> Feel better
The proof comes from experience.
There was an article in Sunday's Washington Post profiling the routine of Nationals' pitcher Doug Fister. It is part of a series called " 162: A Baseball Season's Relentless Grind"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...starter-doug-fister/
An excerpt follows below.
But even with that close monitoring, both by himself and the Nationals’ staff, Fister woke up the day after his start against Colorado feeling sore. “Just mentally, physically exhausted,” he said. It is like this for most every major league starter after most every major league start. “You can feel it,” Roark said. Fister’s response, at 7 a.m.: A 4 1/2-mile run with his fiancee. This is nothing more than cleansing. They are training for a half marathon together, so they took to the hills in northern Virginia. Even as a kid, only two things could truly wipe Fister’s brain clean: mowing the lawn and running. “It’s a mental and physical break for me,” Fister said. “I use the mental side of things just to clear my mind and enjoy nature.”
While I have no horse in the race as to whether distance running is good or bad for a pitcher, and don't care whether Doug Fister is "right" or "wrong", I did find the choice of words to be interesting in light of the ongoing discussions in this particular forum topic. As an added bonus, I might have found my next lawnboy !
My kid pitched a long outing one Sunday. Way too many pitches. He was sore. Monday he played basketball -- running up and down the court. Arm soreness went away after that. Not scientific, but seemed to work.
As far as day after pitching
I don't know the exact protocol at my son's program but I see pitchers sprinting, doing bands, my son said they do weighted ball routines that are focused on the decelerators. Some do some Yoga and they have an ice bath.
TPM
When you pitch for several innings or throw several pitches, the next day you can have some soreness. Running or any other cardio that increases heart rate can help with the soreness. When a pitcher is sore, the cardio feels like you are flushing the crap (soreness) out of your body. After the cardio, you actually feel less sore and much better. That is why it is referred to as a flush run.
Pitch -> get sore
Cardio -> Feel better
The proof comes from experience.
I admire your stubbornness in the face of facts, reason and logic. It takes a special human to keep on saying the same thing when it is so obviously and clearly wrong. Kudos, sir!
I am still waiting for info that running after pitching flushes the system.
I am still waiting for info that running after pitching flushes the system.
You're going to be waiting for a long time, or until he realizes that he's wrong and is willing to learn from facts, science and evidence. I wouldn't hold my breath.
Running after pitching flushes system is a know fact
Um...it's right above your last post. hsbaseballweb.com. A thread about ptiching questions. Posted by LAball. On the internet. Right there. Right. Above. You. Look closer.
