Live batter vs Radar Guns

the key to me for a pitcher is DOES HE WIN ?

quote:

I know it's been discussed in other threads, but some coaches put way too much into speed and it would be interesting to know how many great MLB pitchers would have been passed over if the radar gun would've existed back then.

There is no doubt there are many, many 'woulda-been' MLB players who were passed over for a variety of reasons. A lot of making it to that level is about skills...but there is definitely a 'being in the right place at the right time' element involved too!

On the opposite side of your point, Sandy Koufax was passed over by the Reds scout who had first shot (no draft back then). This was due to control issues, reportedly. And all despite the fact that he threw a baseball with plenty of velocity and a devastating curve ball.

There will always be biases for one thing or another. Your job as a parent is to help your son find the place that is best for him and what he brings to the table.

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
There will always be biases for one thing or another. Your job as a parent is to help your son find the place that is best for him and what he brings to the table.

Your son has offers, congratulations.

However, I get the feeling that you are not satisfied with who gave them to him?

TPM


who are nyou to tell a poster what their job is as parent?

quote:

TPM

who are nyou to tell a poster what their job is as parent?

Hmmmm. TR - It was me, NOT TPM who suggested what a parent should/could do in this situation.

Something you commonly do, BTW.

Guess your bias on who to blame is just a wee-bit obvious!

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm sorry about that

quote:

Originally posted by OKbaseballDad:
My 2013 RHP has taken the teams off his list who simply put a Juggs gun on him on his visits.

Some offered, but the ones that gave the best offers are those who actually had him pitch out of the bullpen against their own guys.

While he only throws 82-83, he throws four pitches, and has a 1.89 ERA.

I know it's been discussed in other threads, but some coaches put way too much into speed and it would be interesting to know how many great MLB pitchers would have been passed over if the radar gun would've existed back then.

What if the Stanford or South Carolina coach showed up with a radar gun and offered 90%?
Still Off the list???

PGStaff- I agree wholeheartedly. Why would you cross a school off your list because they chose to track a pitcher's velocity?

There's a lot that goes into being a collegiate student-athlete...

PG and JH,

I understood the point that OK was trying to make was that if the only thing they are going to be interested in is his son's velocity, in all likelihood, he won't be offered a lot since he just throws 82-83.

I thought his point was a good one. The schools that will probably make his son a better offer, and that will probably be a better fit for him, are those that look at more than just his velocity. JH, you made that point yourself! There's a lot that goes into being a college athlete, and if they were just looking at his velocity, that school likely won't be a good fit for him.

You're not really trying to tell us that programs like Stanford or SC will offer a righty 90% for throwing that speed, are you? If so, I'm not buying it.

Rick- I agree with you on everything you stated. However, I can't say if schools like that would bite at a kid with his repertoire. I would assume its highly unlikely, but I'm not in their shoes recruiting.

I think PG's point, and the one that I echoed, is that it is rather one-dimentional of a player to cross a school of his list simply because of one facet of evaluation. If that school genuinely liked what they saw (not implying Stanford, SC, etc...but any school), then why eliminate an option?

I helped the coaching staff at my school run camps over the summer in which we had pitchers throwing bullpens. I was in charge of the radar gun and charting of the pitches. While I'm not usually looked to for too much insight, there were a few instances when my coach approached me saying something along the lines of "what was (Player's Name)'s velo?" and I said "80-83". Coach then responded with things like "he threw a heavy ball" or "I liked his mechanics" or "his slider was tight".

For reference, I play at a mid-major DI university.

So while a lack of velocity doesn't help in most circumstances, it is not the only tool of scouting. And if a coach's use of a radar gun single-handedly makes a prospect cross that school off of his list, well, I just think that is kind of foolish.

If the 82-83 is the FB as noted, then what is the curve and/or change? I assume 2 of the 4 pitches are 4-seam & 2-seam. Does the FB move a lot. Is there a slider with the FB to deceive. Lots of factors. While I agree that the radar is relied upon too heavily at times, you also have to realize a D1 college hitter will hit a straight 82-83. If you're a top D1, then most assuredly if you're looking at 100 pitchers, then a large percentage throw 82-83.

There are certain things you have to accept during the recruiting process and if the coach is primarily interested in speed during the recruiting process, then that carries over into the season. Your 82-83 may be a starter and do well in HS, but would he be a starter in D1? Probably not - at least from how I read the tea leaves! Is that what you want? As much as a school is picking you, you are picking the school.

As it relates to MLB and history - tough call because you don't call out someone to compare to nor an era in which to compare. Gibson? Koufax? Even without radar guns being as big a part of the decision process, the speed and movement of the ball have always been a factor. Still in order to pitch 82-85 (today) in the MLB you usually have some gimmick to go with it. An absurdly slow change-up or nasty 12/6 curve. A slow throwing lefty or of course the 65 MPH knucklers. Pitching has been and always will be about disrupting the timing of the hitter. Once the hitters adjust to the speed, it's time to change the pitcher!

quote:

I know it's been discussed in other threads, but some coaches put way too much into speed and it would be interesting to know how many great MLB pitchers would have been passed over if the radar gun would've existed back then.

Another thing to think about is maybe the coach has already signed 1 or 2 82-83 mph guys and is looking for a strong arm to add to his staff. Possibly only wants to follow or sign a player with that type of strong arm.

I also don't agree with the premise though that you just cross off a school because they did not have a player throw against hitters. Original post leads me to believe that offers were made and turned down based on not throwing against hitters. If a school offers to a pitcher after a bullpen where the fastball top was 82-83 that means they put alot of stock into the pitchers movement on pitches, ability to locate and the quality of his other pitches plus maybe projectability in addition to what they saw on the gun. So decision to offer was not just based on the gun.

quote:

Originally posted by OKbaseballDad:
I know it's been discussed in other threads, but some coaches put way too much into speed and it would be interesting to know how many great MLB pitchers would have been passed over if the radar gun would've existed back then.

Our kid has similar velocity and stats...we were thrilled to have anyone with a radar gun show up. Keep in mind, if your son goes JUCO, your interest in some of the schools you have crossed of the list may change in a few years. And, if your son is throwing 88+ mph by then, you'll probably be glad they brought a radar gun.

quote:

I know it's been discussed in other threads, but some coaches put way too much into speed and it would be interesting to know how many great MLB pitchers would have been passed over if the radar gun would've existed back then.

In the old days, they used stop watches instead of radar guns.

I remember coming to this site years ago, and thinking the same thing while my oldest son was being recruited. I thought college and pro scouts had no idea what they were doing passing on pitchers that get outs vs passing on pitchers that light up the radar gun. Some old-timers took me under their wings and showed me how this recruiting thing works. Now, I understand it much better. Velocity matters when you are discussing pitching....there is no getting around it and there are very few exceptions. If your son is one of those exceptions, I wish you well. But they are still going to put a radar gun on him whether he likes it or not. They will do it while he is being recruited, and while he is pitching a college or pro game. Teammates will be charting pitches and mph for almost all pitches. Radar guns are tools, and they are not going away.

Baseball like any business has its metrics for performance, and history thresholds for risk and reward. They are more willing to bet their job on a 90+ guy than a 82-83 guy. That is just the world we live in. A few years ago. I recall a scout telling me at a high school game that he would lose his job if he didn't call in a player throwing 90+. He may have been exagerrating, but I think there is some truth to that. He didn't tell me he'd lose his job if he found a kid throwing 82-83 with incredible movement. Pitching coaches can teach movement, but you can't teach natural velocity.

Bottom line is I would listen to any offer and consider the ones that make the most sense academically, athleitically and financially. I wouldn't cross any college of any list based on their evaluation tools. You shouldn't care what tools they use to evaluate your son. An offer is an offer.

Good luck.

My son goes to a small school and has to play all of the sports, so really only plays baseball from mid-March through mid-May.

Because of this coaches that pay attention say he has a lot of "upside" when he focuses strictly on baseball. He'll go to a JUCO first to improve, so not concerned about Division I just yet, but several DDI coaches told him if he'll improve at a JUCO they'll be watching next year.

Some JUCO's had him pitching bullpen, and he retired their current players...those guys have all offered. Two coaches did nothing but have him pitch after a three hour early morning drive and just held the Juggs gun on him...he's not going to impress anyone with velocity just yet.

One of his summer teammates is 6'5 and throws 92, but won't be able to qualify DI and is very wild (both pitching and off the field), so even the local JUCO's may pass.

My point is there's just a lot more that goes into pitching that MPH, and I've already seen who the lazy coaches are...and aren't.

Maybe the college coach (who spends every day in college baseball)knows more about what it takes to pitch at their level than the parent of a HS kid does?

These college coaches are "lazy" or "don't know what they're doing" is comical.

OKbaseballdad,

It sounds like one silver lining in your son's developement is that he has had to learn to "pitch" and not just throw as many guys who are blessed with great velocity at a young age eventually find they have to do to survive up higher levels. He may improve his velocity three or four mph or who knows maybe ten or twelve, but he will also have already learned how to use his head on the mound. He also can throw multiple pitches effectively, so he's got a lot of things in his favor. Don't shut any potential college out. As someone stated, a lot could change in the next two or three years. Good Luck!

Rather than lament how evaluations are performed, I would encourage the young man to develop his arm strength. Get him on a long tossing program and if he knows there may be a prospective recruiter in the stands, encourage him to let the ball fly. Encourage him to throw the ball hard.

It already appears to me (based on what you've written) that the young man knows how to pitch. Get him to add the velocity tool to his arsenal and all these misgivings become moot.

Welcome to the hsbbweb btw OKbaseballDad!

quote:

Originally posted by OKbaseballDad:
My 2013 RHP has taken the teams off his list who simply put a Juggs gun on him on his visits.

Hello and welcome to the forum.

While I understand your point of view, I would not discount any interest your son receives, regardless if it perceived to be only measured by a radar gun. Keep in mind that many if not all the good scouts are seeing much more than just the mph. They can also see run, break, etc. as well as looking at repeatable mechanics, max effort, arm slot, and so on. So just because your son is in the low 80's at the moment, does not mean he might not be projected to throw higher in the future. They can also look at him as a potential guy out of the pen if they drop him down, if that is a need they foresee in the future.
Not all D1 guys are throwing 90+, even though I am sure scouts/coaches prefer more velo than less. It is obviously easier to back off max velo for control than not have the mph when it is needed. That said, any and all interest/offers should be carefully examined by your family, regardless of the methodology the school uses.

Good luck