I would imagine all the top prospects PG has in their database throw breaking pitches. I don't know many hs aged pitchers who don't. Especially Soph Jr and Sr guys. But they don't have to live off of them when their 12 and I don't think most of them did. I could be wrong.
The guys that I have coached that have gone on to have very good hs careers, college careers and have been drafted did not. I could give you several examples of kids I have coached and I am aware of that did not. And PG had them ranked very high.
There is a big difference in living off of breaking pitches at 10 11 and 12 and learning how to throw them and developing once you enter hs. I am sure there are guys that throw the heck out of them from 9 on up. And maybe some of these guys never have a problem. I simply don't think its worth the risk that I believe exists. This is a topic that people are just going to disagree about. And thats ok.
If your son played for me or anyone else's and came in as a 14 or 15 year old freshman he would never have the chance to show me his hammer until he showed me he could pitch. Fastball, 4 and 2 seamer for strikes and balls, change speed on his heater for strikes and balls and work a change. Until he can do that I could careless if he has a hammer or not. And once he shows he can do that we will work on that hammer. But even then its going to be limited in its use. Its just me. Maybe I am a little old fashioned or in left field. But its worked quite well for those with the ability and work ethic to reach the next level.
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Common sense is the best advice.
I think that is what most here are stating yet you still find argument (weak one) to support youth players throwing curve balls is a not harmful.
That just goes to show how limited your scope of experience is, that you get most of your info from "reading" and not from acutual experience in this particular instance. Obviously, your son threw lots of CB's when younger, at 15, it's hard to tell the effects that it might have in a few years, or six months from now. Hopefully you have limited his work, thus eliminating one factor that could result in unjury, overuse.
Let's put this in perspective. We are not talking about Stephen Strasburg here (who by the way threw lots and lots of curveballs in college) but 9-14 year old children. You seem to miss that point, and you also seem to miss the point that these are children, and you don't train children like they are men.
Tell me how to train a 9-14 year old to be better conditioned so that he can throw a breaking ball?
What does top prospects in the country have to do with throwing breaking balls well? Do you think that when players attend showcases at that point they have A+ stuff? Do you even think it necessary to have a bb at that point? Showcases are based upon future projection. And there are plenty of players that get drafted or get into top baseball program that have average secondary stuff. To use son as an example he really didn't have a decent breaking pitch he relied on (more of a slurvy show me pitch as a senior in HS) until college, he was recruited on the use of his 2 FB and change up. And it took years to learn to throw the slider properly.
The 2009 first round pick in the STL organization out of HS, is just now learning to throw a curve ball with confidance. He wasn't drafted as a first pick for his secondary pitches but rather his future projection on the use of those pitches and a devastating fastball. So you need to do some homework regarding the draft.
It's all how you look at it, and waking up each day and looking yourself in the mirror has a lot to do with it.
DK's agent is a former ML player who had TJS. In discussions (about this particular subject) he has told me that at his son uses the FB and the change up, pretty successful national youth team too. Why do you suppose that? And if you think he doesn't know his stuff, you are so wrong. Same as coach May, you got to work on developing your FB (2 seam, 4 seam, change up before you get to use the breaking stuff). I will take his opinion anyday over some wanna be dad instuctor.
I have to go with Coach May's and others opinion on the fact that the argument stands that it isn't on who is right and who is wrong, but what makes common sense. It doesn't make sense seeing these 12 and 13 year old kids use the cb over and over and over, I don't watch the LLWS anymore for that reason.
I have said this before and will say it again, one can make the decision to teach their own these breaking pitches and use them frequently at a young age, but if you are a coach you better stay far away from my kid.
Unfortunetly, the problem is that most parents don't know any better, they put their faith and trust in people who do not know better.
JMO.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Common sense is the best advice.
That just goes to show how limited your scope of experience is, that you get most of your info from "reading" and not from acutual experience in this particular instance.
JMO.
Gingerbreadman, as you can see, according to the Queen of baseball, no one on this site has any credibility regarding baseball unless, their son was drafted and plays professionally or has the word " Coach" in their screen name. No offense is meant to the coaches here.
TPM, enjoy your day.
quote:Originally posted by Pop Up Hitter dad:quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Common sense is the best advice.
That just goes to show how limited your scope of experience is, that you get most of your info from "reading" and not from acutual experience in this particular instance.
JMO.
Gingerbreadman, as you can see, according to the Queen of baseball, no one on this site has any credibility regarding baseball unless, their son was drafted and plays professionally or has the word " Coach" in their screen name. No offense is meant to the coaches here.
TPM, enjoy your day.
GBM claimed to me that he knew a alot about pitching, what does that entail, do you know?
Is he a certified instuctor, has he played the game, does he get paid as a coach, has he ever sent a player to the next level? Does he work for a ML team as a scout? Does he have a player that has made it past HS? A player he has wored with that plays the game at the highest level?
There are lots of folks here that fit into that category, yet they don't spew out on a messageboard what a player should or shouldn't do, based on all the "reading" they do, or watching players pitch on TV. The best advice PUHD, comes from years of experience being close to the game (which many here have) not ten years of "watching LL or travel ball", and FWIW, I have never given advice on how to pitch on this or any other website.
My advice here has and will always be get a qualified person to see you in person to determine what your issue is.
GBM states that common sense is the best advice, yet he refutes what others think is common sense.
That makes no sense to me.
I would like to know what you have added to this site, other than being extremely jealous of Bryce Harper, could you point out what you contribute here, please?
Mr Umpire those are not strikes. Just because he hits his spot its not a strike. Good Grief its frustrating to watch.
It's funny, I didn't see a single curve ball in the LLWS 
I believe some of you may have gotton the wrong impression from my posts regarding throwing a breaking ball. If you will recall I said that common sense should be the rule. Every kid is different- some are...(have I mentioned all this before), anyway, you all know.
My point is that too much emphasis is placed upon youth who throw curveballs and not enough where it needs to be- that of basic overuse. I am not sure why some (TPM) believe I give bad advice? Is teaching that it is wrong to throw while fatigued bad advice? Is it wrong to teach kids the ptoper way to warm up and properly condition their arms for throwing? Is it bad advice to teach parents the importance of not letting junior throw while either injured or fatigued? Is it wrong to work with kids mechanics who throw fastballs and have pain? Is it wrong to not let a kid keep pitching at the first sign of pain and/or fatigue? Is it wrong to teach that it is not normal to have nagging pain from throwing and that ice and ibuprofin is the long term cure?
I guess if I am wrong in those areas- then yes I am giving bad advice. But I know you would all agree.
I get tired of all the jargon over curveball this and curveball that when studies are showing that the main cause for youth injuries is from overuse. That means it doesn't matter what junior is throwing, if he throws too much he increases his odds for injury. I also made it the point that the cookie cutter guidleines like "pitch counts" or "inning limits" is a general guidelines for the reason of helping curb injury. But it isn't one size fits all. this is where "common sense" comes into play. Some can't throw more than two innings of throwing fastballs without severe elbow pain. Others can throw 7 innings and only feel slightly tired when they are done. Each is different and that is where the focus should be. When we place all emphasis on "no curveballs" because it causes injury, I honestly believe we miss the mark entirely or have not done proper research into the matter. Sure, there is a right and wrong way to throw a curveball. But the same can be said for any pitch including the fastball.
My point is that too much emphasis is placed upon youth who throw curveballs and not enough where it needs to be- that of basic overuse. I am not sure why some (TPM) believe I give bad advice? Is teaching that it is wrong to throw while fatigued bad advice? Is it wrong to teach kids the ptoper way to warm up and properly condition their arms for throwing? Is it bad advice to teach parents the importance of not letting junior throw while either injured or fatigued? Is it wrong to work with kids mechanics who throw fastballs and have pain? Is it wrong to not let a kid keep pitching at the first sign of pain and/or fatigue? Is it wrong to teach that it is not normal to have nagging pain from throwing and that ice and ibuprofin is the long term cure?
I guess if I am wrong in those areas- then yes I am giving bad advice. But I know you would all agree.
I get tired of all the jargon over curveball this and curveball that when studies are showing that the main cause for youth injuries is from overuse. That means it doesn't matter what junior is throwing, if he throws too much he increases his odds for injury. I also made it the point that the cookie cutter guidleines like "pitch counts" or "inning limits" is a general guidelines for the reason of helping curb injury. But it isn't one size fits all. this is where "common sense" comes into play. Some can't throw more than two innings of throwing fastballs without severe elbow pain. Others can throw 7 innings and only feel slightly tired when they are done. Each is different and that is where the focus should be. When we place all emphasis on "no curveballs" because it causes injury, I honestly believe we miss the mark entirely or have not done proper research into the matter. Sure, there is a right and wrong way to throw a curveball. But the same can be said for any pitch including the fastball.
I managed to watch the final, but I had to mute Mussy and the "dog".... What a train wreck!
It was fun to watch Japan and Cali, two very good teams. I hated to see Japan not get out of the 6th with the tailor made DP ball. I know the DP cannot be assumed, but the SS makes that play 99 out of 100 times!
Congrats to the Cali boys!!!
GED10DaD
It was fun to watch Japan and Cali, two very good teams. I hated to see Japan not get out of the 6th with the tailor made DP ball. I know the DP cannot be assumed, but the SS makes that play 99 out of 100 times!
Congrats to the Cali boys!!!
GED10DaD
quote:Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
It's funny, I didn't see a single curve ball in the LLWS
Neither did several of the home plate umpires.
Thank goodness it is over!
I'd rather be forced to watch endless 30 year old reruns of Jerry Lewis MDA Labor Day telethon, than be subjected to the continual Little League propaganda every time we click on ESPN.
Kudo's to MLB.com & streaming tonight's National Youth Baseball Championship!
I'd rather be forced to watch endless 30 year old reruns of Jerry Lewis MDA Labor Day telethon, than be subjected to the continual Little League propaganda every time we click on ESPN.
Kudo's to MLB.com & streaming tonight's National Youth Baseball Championship!
Agree thank goodness it's over, but why does the ESPN trailer have to continually say, "Japan shortstop made an error on possible double play ball that allowed..."
Couldn't it just say, Hunington Beach player *** hit a walk off single?
Why do we have to rub it in like that. For goodness sake, they're 12.
Couldn't it just say, Hunington Beach player *** hit a walk off single?
Why do we have to rub it in like that. For goodness sake, they're 12.
JMoff I totally agree with you.
Besides the fact of the camera looming in on his face as he is literally bawling.I felt bad for that kid.I would of rather seen them not lose like that.Japan always puts good teams and classy kids on the field and I personally enjoy watching them every year.
quote:Originally posted by journey2:
Thank goodness it is over!
I'd rather be forced to watch endless 30 year old reruns of Jerry Lewis MDA Labor Day telethon, than be subjected to the continual Little League propaganda every time we click on ESPN.
Kudo's to MLB.com & streaming tonight's National Youth Baseball Championship!
Yeah but did you see the size of those kids on the Texas team? Talk about "man-child"!
Fanofgame, agree 100%. I enjoy the LLWS, like to try to predict who the final two are, Japan seems to be always there in the final game. I wonder if they bet on them in Vegas?
I would rather watch kids play baseball for the fun, rather then million dollar prima donas.
I would rather watch kids play baseball for the fun, rather then million dollar prima donas.
Is it just a matter of time before some very advanced 13 year old in the LLWS will be throwing 90 mph?
Will they allow him to play? Will the MPH conversion show he is throwing 120-130 mph?
Will they allow him to play? Will the MPH conversion show he is throwing 120-130 mph?
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Is it just a matter of time before some very advanced 13 year old in the LLWS will be throwing 90 mph?
Will they allow him to play? Will the MPH conversion show he is throwing 120-130 mph?
Yeah, I totally hear you there. I remember a few years back they had a kid throwing in the low 80's and it was ridiculous. The announcers kept bragging about his power arm and him throwing no-hitters. Well, duh! I hope they do find some 90 mph kid and put him on the bump so that it perhaps can finally show to the world why they need to move the mounds back and bases apart or redo the age limit.
Doubt LL will ever move the mound & bases bases back, it wouldn't work with LL's penchant for having closed bases. LL's 50-70 pilot program seems to have fizzled, though I'm far from in a LL insider. Personally, I think its beyond stupid keeping the present course, by moving the age cutoff to Jan1, it would eliminate many of the bigger guys. During Sports Center, we looked up the player history of the S Cal pitcher who had the comebacker hit him in the cap. Talking a solid 12Majors tournament ball kid & his reaction didn't necessarily save him from having his face rearranged or worse, more like luck 