I would like to issue a word of caution, when it comes down to criticizing little league coaches whether it be about the number of curve balls thrown or decisions during the game.
I think most coaches have the best interest of the kids in mind. I would think there is a certain amount of anxiety a coach feels with his team being on national television. In most cases the coaches have little experience in having their actions televised.
I have coached little league all star teams that consistently made it to state semi-finals and finals. In more than one of those cases the team lost because I made incorrect baseball decisions.
I also had a situation where I allowed a pitcher on a 9-10 all star game to throw 110 pitches. I had no idea that he was that high, In the late innings I was concerned about getting everyone the required playing time. My assistant coaches didn’t advise me of the pitch count. My fault, as I didn’t identify an assistant to keep a pitch count. For those who knew my coaching style, I was normally very conservative with the number of pitches a kid threw and who could throw a curveball This was one time in which I was so consumed with the other things going on with the game, I lost track of the pitch count.
I watch the LLWS every year. I enjoy is as I am aware of time and effort the players, coaches and families put into the goal of reaching the LLWS. From that perspective the LLWS is a positive event.
Nolan--
That's an average of 15 pitches an inning, which I believe is very good for that age. In my mind it's still too many innings and pitches, but I guess everybody makes their own call. Our son is just under 80 innings for the year. (early March to present) He will be done soon for the summer, and limit his pitching in the fall-- more focus on conditioning and hitting. At that age it just seems like a lot of pitching. Will he also play in the fall, or will he take time off?
That's an average of 15 pitches an inning, which I believe is very good for that age. In my mind it's still too many innings and pitches, but I guess everybody makes their own call. Our son is just under 80 innings for the year. (early March to present) He will be done soon for the summer, and limit his pitching in the fall-- more focus on conditioning and hitting. At that age it just seems like a lot of pitching. Will he also play in the fall, or will he take time off?
Nolan,
In an interview three years ago, Karl Kuhn, the pitching coach at UVA, recommended limiting pitchers to 100 pitches thrown in a competitive setting times their age in a calendar year. By his reckoning, your son is already past his annual limit.
Best wishes.
In an interview three years ago, Karl Kuhn, the pitching coach at UVA, recommended limiting pitchers to 100 pitches thrown in a competitive setting times their age in a calendar year. By his reckoning, your son is already past his annual limit.
Best wishes.
Swampboy-- Wow. Thanks for the video. Extremely impressive and a great reinforcer. Like the towel drill and 5 pitches to correct posture. Have heard nothing but great things about Coach Kuhn. I sure am glad you posted that video.
quote:Originally posted by nolan ryan:
A lot of interesting discussion on curves and overuse. Every kid is different so there is no one size fits all. Here's my story - My 14yo son started with the curve about half way through the 12yo season. He used it very little - maybe <5%. At 13 he was 9% C, 11% CH, and 80% FB. This year he was 17% C, 5% CH, and 78% FB. From late April through early July this year he threw 1,472 pitches in 96 innings over the 26 games he pitched in. Twice he went over 100 pitches, one 104 and another 106. Never, in all the years pitching, has he had an arm problem or complained of soreness. Last time he had a gun on him, that I saw anyway, was a bit over a year ago and he was at 73. Don't know where he is now but I know he's a lot faster. So he's not lobbing the ball up there - there is some torque on his arm. I'm curious to get your thoughts on usage and pitch mix.
Not sure if you have heard (I know you have), overuse is the main cause of injury, which usually shows up later on.
You may not like what I have to say, your son is 15, shame on you.
quote:Originally posted by nolan ryan:
I'm curious to get your thoughts on usage and pitch mix.
Nolan,
As reference, our HS varsity workhorse threw 50+ innings/ 800+ pitches during HS season. For HS summer ball and scout summer team, he has probably thrown an additional30-40 innings/approx 500 pitches. This is the rising senior workhorse - over the course of five months. Compare these numbers to your son's three month total.
(Disclaimer - I know that many HS programs throw their top guy more innings than ours but hopefully, you still get the point.)
As has been posted and radio blogged often here recently, there are many varying opinions on long toss, daily throwing, rest periods, overuse, etc.
However, I think that you would get a resounding general consensus that your 14/15 yo is pitching too many innings/# of pitches. Please, for your son, do some serious research. Quickly.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
If he was throwing them frequently, at 11 that signals overuse. The whole argument with the FB is because there are many that do not throw the FB correctly just as they do not throw CB correctly and a lot involves the argument of pronation vs supination, early or late. It also involves a lot of other stuff, which includes arm slot, RHP,LHP, wrist angles and where the pitcher is in his development (open or closed plates). There is a huge argument that supination is harmful for young pitchers and those pitches include breaking balls.
I would love to see a study on more and more CB specialists (those that don't throw the heat and rely on frequent use of CB), in HS,college and pro ball. I will bet they have just if not as many injury issues as heat throwers. You have a very little experience at this time. You remind me of the dad of the LHP who constantly was telling us what a stellar pitcher his LHP was, and he lived off of the CB to get players out, in college he was basically done, though the parent blamed it on the pitching coach, finally admitting as a seior he had shoulder issues. Someday if your son comes to you with an injury, you won't know whether it will be because of all those curveballs he threw or if he went home after pitching and threw a ball against the wall for hours after pitching. And you will not admit it, as most won't. I challenge any parent whose son has had to have shoulder or TJS to tell us what they threw when younger, most won't.
Do you hold up your information based on personal info? I mean how many kids do you see who are injured that throw very high velo in your area vs. other pitches? If you can, please present data. You claim that studies and data prove results yet in another topic when presented data, you don't recognize it. You are neither here nor there.
TPM,
You are certainly not an expert.
How can you even claim that because my son threw a curveball at 11 that it was overuse?C'mon please, we both know that "pitching too much" causing "fatigue" is the leading cause for youth injury and perhaps even injury in HS and beyond. "Overuse" is the definition of a pitcher who throws either while fatigued or injured or both. Now certainly just throwing a breaking ball correctly cannot possibly be termed "overuse" at any age unless he is doing so while either injured or fatigued.
Of course you agree don't you?
I thought I'd get a couple "shame on you's". I know it doesn't sound great but like I said, every kid is different and there is no mathematical formula you can apply to all kids. Body types and deliveries are much different. My son has long arms, big hands, and broad shoulders. His delivery is long, smooth, and effortless. We've all seen the kids, we have some on our team, that stress, strain, and grind to throw every pitch as hard as they can - looks like their arm may fly off at any minute - or they just may p**p their pants! Logic tells me that my son should be able to throw many more pitches than the kid putting way more stress on their elbow and shoulder.
He took July off other than some catch here and there. He'll play some fall ball, maybe 3-4 tournaments and a few practices.
Once he gets into HS and showcase ball next year, the coaches will likely be far more limited on pitch counts/innings.
He took July off other than some catch here and there. He'll play some fall ball, maybe 3-4 tournaments and a few practices.
Once he gets into HS and showcase ball next year, the coaches will likely be far more limited on pitch counts/innings.
Make sure you stress the fact that you don't want to overuse his arm especially as a freshman and coaches a lot of times may forget to look at pitch count. I threw almost 130 pitches one game, one because i felt amazing and two because I had a no hitter going. Thank God it didn't have an effect on me after and I got more than a week and a half almost two weeks rest other than long toss after that. But what i'm saying is, you need to make sure you stress the fact that you are on a pitch count; especially as a starter
quote:Originally posted by nolan ryan:
I thought I'd get a couple "shame on you's". I know it doesn't sound great but like I said, every kid is different and there is no mathematical formula you can apply to all kids. Body types and deliveries are much different. My son has long arms, big hands, and broad shoulders. His delivery is long, smooth, and effortless. We've all seen the kids, we have some on our team, that stress, strain, and grind to throw every pitch as hard as they can - looks like their arm may fly off at any minute - or they just may p**p their pants! Logic tells me that my son should be able to throw many more pitches than the kid putting way more stress on their elbow and shoulder.
He took July off other than some catch here and there. He'll play some fall ball, maybe 3-4 tournaments and a few practices.
Once he gets into HS and showcase ball next year, the coaches will likely be far more limited on pitch counts/innings.
You asked us for thoughts, I gave mine, you can justify all you want, but with the innings and pitch counts you have given us, that is overuse. If you think that your son will avoid issues because of his delivery, or his statue you are kidding yourself. You think as he gets older they will cut back, no that is the time when the innings and pitch counts increase, that is the IMPORTANT time.
I have given my stance on the frequent use of the curveball at a young age, my opinion is no one here would like to admit their sons injury was caused by anything other than it "just happened". Pitching is risk vs reward, you all as parents can control it when your kids are young after that it's out of your hands. What are you gonna do, call up the college coach and tell him your son pitched too much the day before? Your time is now, use it wisely.
What you dads tend to not realize is that your sons can sail through middle school and high school, maybe college, maybe drafted. Just ask a minor league first rounder how he feels that he has major shoulder issues and removed from the 40 man and not placed back on because everyone knows that shoulders rarely heel. Ask all of those guys who are released even after TJS because the organization can't wait another year while you find your control. Just ask the college starter who is supposed to be a first round pick (actually first of 5) and blows out his UCL (HS overload and multo sport), and is not drafted, the following year later because he can't find his control. He is playing in ML but he lost out of LOTS of money due to overuse before he got to college. Just ask the HS starter who has every major D1 after him and suddenly he develops shoulder issues (lose of velo). Most of those programs suddenly disappear.
Because you are not seeing it now, doesn't mean it's not possible. Again, you all sound like a dad that bragged how great his son's performance was all through growing up and HS and got to college and couldn't pitch more than an inning at a time. Shoulder issues.
You do what you want, it's only you guys who have to get up in the morning and look at yourself in the mirror everyday, enjoy as much as you can now.
Talking to a trainer from a big program the other day, can't beleive what issues pitchers come with. You guys have no clue, really you don't. You want to argue, fine, but I can't see hoe parents of 14,15 year olds can see the future, unless you have a crystal ball.
I don't have a dog in this fight anymore, luckily my player has escaped major issues, but non the less he has had issues that have set him back, maybe even prevented him from someday reaching the top, even WITH minor stuff. Has he gone further than many, yes, but that was not the original intention. You see for every pitcher that goes down, there is another one right behind you, HS, college and pro.
quote:Originally posted by nolan ryan:
Logic tells me that my son should be able to throw many more pitches than the kid putting way more stress on their elbow and shoulder.
It tells me the same thing!
I tivoed and watch 5 of the games yesterday. I'm sorry but maybe I have a much different view of good 12 year old mechanics than some but I saw some really good swings. Yes I saw some bad ones but saw some great ones as well. The lead off hitter for Florida has a beautiful swing.
Swampboy - Very well stated and much appreciated!
You are absolutely correct in that it's a risk/reward balance. My thought was that the more he is out there the more situations, batters, etc he will face, and it will make him a better player. Practice makes perfect, 10,000 hours, etc, right? But you are correct in that there are likely diminishing returns to this, especially within a given season.
One benefit you didn't mention. He absolutely loves every second he is on the mound. He is in charge and is the star. He hated when the season ended and can't wait until the next tournament in a few weeks (right now he is at home likely throwing a tennis ball into a pillow placed on the couch - while watching MLB network). I'd hate to take some of that away but I surely would if I thought there were a high risk of injury.
I don't want to give the impression that we are not concerned with arm health and pitch him whenever we feel like it. His coach (arm injury ended his college pitching career) and I are very aware. We keep detailed pitching stats, he gets plenty of rest between starts - at least two days, and we continually ask how his arm feels (never an issue). A lot of his 26 appearances were in weekday league games where he'd pitch an inning just to keep fresh.
It's tough to get the proper balance. Guess that's why this topic is discussed so much! Thanks again for the comments. You've given me something to think about!
You are absolutely correct in that it's a risk/reward balance. My thought was that the more he is out there the more situations, batters, etc he will face, and it will make him a better player. Practice makes perfect, 10,000 hours, etc, right? But you are correct in that there are likely diminishing returns to this, especially within a given season.
One benefit you didn't mention. He absolutely loves every second he is on the mound. He is in charge and is the star. He hated when the season ended and can't wait until the next tournament in a few weeks (right now he is at home likely throwing a tennis ball into a pillow placed on the couch - while watching MLB network). I'd hate to take some of that away but I surely would if I thought there were a high risk of injury.
I don't want to give the impression that we are not concerned with arm health and pitch him whenever we feel like it. His coach (arm injury ended his college pitching career) and I are very aware. We keep detailed pitching stats, he gets plenty of rest between starts - at least two days, and we continually ask how his arm feels (never an issue). A lot of his 26 appearances were in weekday league games where he'd pitch an inning just to keep fresh.
It's tough to get the proper balance. Guess that's why this topic is discussed so much! Thanks again for the comments. You've given me something to think about!
2 days between starts?
It's not tough to find a balance, the former college who ended his career with an arm injury should know better.
It's not tough to find a balance, the former college who ended his career with an arm injury should know better.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
You asked us for thoughts, I gave mine, you can justify all you want, but with the innings and pitch counts you have given us, that is overuse. If you think that your son will avoid issues because of his delivery, or his statue you are kidding yourself. You think as he gets older they will cut back, no that is the time when the innings and pitch counts increase, that is the IMPORTANT time.
I have given my stance on the frequent use of the curveball at a young age, my opinion is no one here would like to admit their sons injury was caused by anything other than it "just happened". Pitching is risk vs reward, you all as parents can control it when your kids are young after that it's out of your hands. What are you gonna do, call up the college coach and tell him your son pitched too much the day before? Your time is now, use it wisely.
What you dads tend to not realize is that your sons can sail through middle school and high school, maybe college, maybe drafted. Just ask a minor league first rounder how he feels that he has major shoulder issues and removed from the 40 man and not placed back on because everyone knows that shoulders rarely heel. Ask all of those guys who are released even after TJS because the organization can't wait another year while you find your control. Just ask the college starter who is supposed to be a first round pick (actually first of 5) and blows out his UCL (HS overload and multo sport), and is not drafted, the following year later because he can't find his control. He is playing in ML but he lost out of LOTS of money due to overuse before he got to college. Just ask the HS starter who has every major D1 after him and suddenly he develops shoulder issues (lose of velo). Most of those programs suddenly disappear.
Because you are not seeing it now, doesn't mean it's not possible. Again, you all sound like a dad that bragged how great his son's performance was all through growing up and HS and got to college and couldn't pitch more than an inning at a time. Shoulder issues.
You do what you want, it's only you guys who have to get up in the morning and look at yourself in the mirror everyday, enjoy as much as you can now.
Talking to a trainer from a big program the other day, can't beleive what issues pitchers come with. You guys have no clue, really you don't. You want to argue, fine, but I can't see hoe parents of 14,15 year olds can see the future, unless you have a crystal ball.
I don't have a dog in this fight anymore, luckily my player has escaped major issues, but non the less he has had issues that have set him back, maybe even prevented him from someday reaching the top, even WITH minor stuff. Has he gone further than many, yes, but that was not the original intention. You see for every pitcher that goes down, there is another one right behind you, HS, college and pro.
I agree with this for the most part. I'm not a Marshallite in the traditional sense, though I do subscribe to some of his tenets (Release the ball as high as you can and pronating every pitch). There are successful (and injury free) pitchers who didn't do what he said to do, and that leads me to use other information.
Personally, I wouldn't teach (and I don't throw it regularly ) a curveball until the kid is at least biologically 16. I would teach the kid a variant of the Maxline Pronation Curve. I've thrown the Maxline from time to time, always with fair results.
On the other hand, I feel that he is incorrect on certain things. I don't see "Pitching Forearm Flyout" as an issue, and I don't see "Subscapularis detachment" arising from Scap Load to be a big issue either.
N y m a n on the other hand believes that injuries are a function of genetics. For the most part, I think he's right, but mechanics as well as overuse play a part as well. Mills is right on one thing (at least in my opinion). Most pitching drills are a waste of time. I have used weighted balls from time to time, but I feel that the best way to learn to pitch/throw well is by doing just that, throwing a lot.
You don't need a pitching coach or a hitting coach if you can learn through trial and error. I'm really starting to get irritated with "Little Johnny goes to (insert pitching coach here) x times per month! He's going to be a great pitcher!"
Most "pitching coaches" don't know what they're talking about. The kids that they teach would be better learning by themselves. However, I'm sure that there are at least a few people here who know how the body moves the ball.
And just for the record:
I am NOT Paul N y m a n
it is all about common sense
TPM - 1,470 pitches over 10 weeks (147 per wk)and 26 appearances (avg 56 pitches per game)is excessive bordering on child abuse. Please tell me the right level for my son. Thanks
quote:Originally posted by nolan ryan:
TPM - 1,470 pitches over 10 weeks (147 per wk)and 26 appearances (avg 56 pitches per game)is excessive bordering on child abuse. Please tell me the right level for my son. Thanks
Here's a guideline I found. If outdated someone please correct.
http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/position_statement.htm
ML pitchers don't throw 147 pitches per week why would 15 year olds?
You are making justification by spreading it out, I am not sure that it works that way. It is very important what a pitcher does. An example would be let's suppose a pitcher did 8 innings with 100 pitches but in one inning he pitched 40, you don't average it as a good outing, you pay lots of attention to that one inning. Saying he struggled in one inning but made it through is subjective, in that one inning there could have been lots of stuff gone wrong later on, you ust don't know.
TR is right, it's all about common sense, common sense tells me that 14,15 year olds do not have to spend that much time on a pitching mound.
But if it does to you that is fine.
We were very careful with our pitcher, he had all the physical attributes your son has, I am not sure that has anything to do with it, as you will see all types of pitchers with issues, short, tall, stocky, left handed, right handed. I am not an expert I just see the heartache that pitchers go through when injury occurs at all levels. It's all about risk, and my suggestion is minimizing that while you have control over it. You all seem to think that as your sons get older there will be more restrictions, better control, not true. As your sons get older the stakes get higher. There still exists that HS or college coach who will push the limit as much as he can for a win. The better yoor son, the more he can be abused.
It's just a suggestion, you can do what you feel is best, but placing your son in that many games to get better isn't a good reason, your son has plenty of time, years in fact, to get to keep playing, the one thing that can end it...injury.
I am not a fan of weighted balls either, and beleive that injury is part due to genetics, but that doesn't mean because you have good ones, you can go overboard. Save those good genes for later when it counts!
As I said I have no dog in this fight, I only hope adn wish for your pitchers to be able to reach their dream, but sometimes that gets clouded by people who mean well, but just dont realize the pitfalls.
After a long summer on the road with 2nd son, I am finally catching up on this thread. I have to agree with TPM on the number of pitches thrown by 12-15 year olds.
My son actually played in the LLWS several years ago. Although he was a pitcher, he didn't pitch. I was the only parent who wouldn't allow my 12 year old to throw a curve ball. I knew after speaking to many knowledgable coaches that my son was not ready to throw multiple curve balls in a game. He was 5'6" tall then and is now 6'5". He threw his first curveball in a game at 15.
Were there other kids that passed him by in those three years? Of course. Those same kids have already had surgery. Did it make my son a late bloomer? Probably. Did he learn the proper techniques for throwing and proper methods of taking care of his arm? He did.
Most of all he had fun along the way while working very hard. He may not have gotten the coverage for pitching on TV, but he starts his freshman year in two weeks and will be pitching in college while so many of his friends have already blown out their arms.
My son actually played in the LLWS several years ago. Although he was a pitcher, he didn't pitch. I was the only parent who wouldn't allow my 12 year old to throw a curve ball. I knew after speaking to many knowledgable coaches that my son was not ready to throw multiple curve balls in a game. He was 5'6" tall then and is now 6'5". He threw his first curveball in a game at 15.
Were there other kids that passed him by in those three years? Of course. Those same kids have already had surgery. Did it make my son a late bloomer? Probably. Did he learn the proper techniques for throwing and proper methods of taking care of his arm? He did.
Most of all he had fun along the way while working very hard. He may not have gotten the coverage for pitching on TV, but he starts his freshman year in two weeks and will be pitching in college while so many of his friends have already blown out their arms.
quote:Originally posted by LauraZA:
After a long summer on the road with 2nd son, I am finally catching up on this thread. I have to agree with TPM on the number of pitches thrown by 12-15 year olds.
My son actually played in the LLWS several years ago. Although he was a pitcher, he didn't pitch. I was the only parent who wouldn't allow my 12 year old to throw a curve ball. I knew after speaking to many knowledgable coaches that my son was not ready to throw multiple curve balls in a game. He was 5'6" tall then and is now 6'5". He threw his first curveball in a game at 15.
Were there other kids that passed him by in those three years? Of course. Those same kids have already had surgery. Did it make my son a late bloomer? Probably. Did he learn the proper techniques for throwing and proper methods of taking care of his arm? He did.
Most of all he had fun along the way while working very hard. He may not have gotten the coverage for pitching on TV, but he starts his freshman year in two weeks and will be pitching in college while so many of his friends have already blown out their arms.
Well said Laura! I wish more parents would follow your path. Way too many saddle their boys with plans geared for adult athletes thinking more is better. Then the injuries inevitably come, so sad!