LLWS, Here We Go Again

quote:

Originally posted by nolan ryan:
My son, now 14, and I got into watching the LLWS a few years ago. I often wondered where these teams come from and the quality of the players/teams compared to my sons AAA/Major team playing mostly USSSA. No one plays LL around here. I just figured they were much better. They are playing in the LLWS after all. I just looked up the SW team from LA. They played USSSA AAA/major schedule and had a record of 8-20. I guess I have my answer. Not what I expected.
Doesn't matter - we still love watching it.

Good job trashing a dozen 12 year olds, in so few words. Feel better?

How to wear a baseball hat. Cali
How not to wear a baseball hat. Pa

JMO

Twice, I've heard an announcer say that LL has determined that curve balls do not hurt a kid's arm, it is overuse. And that is why they have pitch limits.

I've not heard this before cbs vs overuse. It is real?


(oh and um, yes this thread got a little off track!)

That assumes mechanics are right and repeated each time. How many 12 year olds do you think that applies to? That's LL propaganda.

quote:

Originally posted by 55mom:
Twice, I've heard an announcer say that LL has determined that curve balls do not hurt a kid's arm, it is overuse. And that is why they have pitch limits.

I've not heard this before cbs vs overuse. It is real?

That's Orel Hershiser. He's the best announcer in the game. Nothing but facts. He is correct.

55mom,
you are well to question the certainty of any particular position.
In April of 2011, the National Athletic Trainer's Association issued a position statement on pediatric injuries.
As it relates to the literature and studies on curve balls and breaking balls, here is a cut/paste of their summary and conclusions:

"Some experts are now moving away from the long-held
and perhaps largely anecdotal belief that throwing
breaking pitches is related to arm injuries in young baseball
players. The only prospective study20 we were able to find
appears to support this belief: pitchers throwing sliders had
an 86% increased risk of elbow pain, and pitchers throwing
curveballs had a 52% increased risk of shoulder pain.
However, biomechanical studies comparing torque and
moments generated by different types of pitches in 11- to
14-year-olds85 and 14- to 18-year-olds86 showed that the
fastball imposed more demand than the curveball. Based
on the results of these biomechanics studies, some
researchers have postulated that throwing breaking pitches
is not necessarily risky for young athletes. Yet it is
important to recognize that the participants in these studies
were healthy, with no history of arm injury, and, in the case
of the Nissen et al86 study, perhaps slightly older than the
players who are generally the target of the recommendation
against throwing breaking balls."

The NATA recommendation on breaking balls for youth pitchers is:

"Parents and coaches should restrict the use of breaking
pitches in order to prevent pitching-related arm
injuries.20 If an individual pitcher can throw breaking
pitches on a limited basis and remain symptom free,
then it may be allowed; however, if the use of this pitch
precedes the development of any throwing-related
symptoms, it should be immediately terminated and
the athlete should seek medical attention. Evidence
Category: C"

That is very interesting. Throw until it hurts? Our son has never had a pitching injury - he didn't throw hard breaking anything until older. I guess it is hard to draw conclusions since it is impossible to do comparative studies. Just use common sense I suppose.

I don't feel like LL is helping its credibility by stating curveballs don't hurt arms. There does seem to be enough evidence to make parents pause and ask themselves "why chance it?"

Common sense is the best advice. Every pitcher is different. Some are better condiotioned, some have better mechanics, some throw harder, some have stronger muscles, bones and ligaments, etc. Each pitcher is different. When we begin making cookie cutter guidelines as a one size fits all we miss the point again. The guidlines put in place by recommendation of doctors is a general guidline and one meant to curb a vast number of injuries from occuring.

Regarding youth throwing breaking balls, again it is common sense as much for that as it is for throwing fastballs. If they can't throw without pain then something needs addressing obviously. In my 10 years of watching youth baseball I have never found any instance where throwing breaking balls were more dangerous than just pitching fastballs. I have seen pitchers with sore arms, sore elbows, shoulders etc, that had no idea on how to throw a breaking ball.

The part that disturbs me the greatest is we are stuck in this belief that as long as they have pain just from throwing fastballs- that's ok- ice them up, give plenty of ibuporofin and wallah, let em go again two days later. This attitude is troubling because we believe that it is only curveballs thrown by youth that damages arm health short and long term.

It's good we have pitching limits in place in many organizations to help curb the problem. However, we will never get to the bottom of it (the injuries) until we can convince both players and parents (coaches too) the absolute imporatance of proper arm care, conditioning, and knowing when to stop and shut it down. It doesn;t matter what pitchers throw- be it a slider, fastball or knuckle ball. We need to be more aware that "overuse" is the main cause of throwing injuries and that players especially need to have a knowledge that it isn't good to pitch while either fatigued, sore, or injured!

A key problem is kids don't know the difference between normal muscle sorness from work and pain that indicates a problem. From doctors I've talked to, they can't explain it or help kids/parents know one from the other as much as you would think they could either. They talk in code words like "listen to your body"...like a 12 year old is supposed to know what that means.

One thing to watch your son closely on is his delivery. If you start to see his delivery being altered, there's a good chance he's doing that to protect something that hurts. When you protect one problem (for example, elbow), you generally put more strain on something else (for example, shoulder) and it all goes down hill rapidly. I agree with gingerbread man. To me it's common sense to avoid the curveball, and overuse, at this age. But, sadly, many don't come to that conclusion until they are sitting in the operating waiting room.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Common sense is the best advice. Every pitcher is different. Some are better condiotioned, some have better mechanics, some throw harder, some have stronger muscles, bones and ligaments, etc. Each pitcher is different. When we begin making cookie cutter guidelines as a one size fits all we miss the point again. The guidlines put in place by recommendation of doctors is a general guidline and one meant to curb a vast number of injuries from occuring.

Regarding youth throwing breaking balls, again it is common sense as much for that as it is for throwing fastballs. If they can't throw without pain then something needs addressing obviously. In my 10 years of watching youth baseball I have never found any instance where throwing breaking balls were more dangerous than just pitching fastballs. I have seen pitchers with sore arms, sore elbows, shoulders etc, that had no idea on how to throw a breaking ball.

The part that disturbs me the greatest is we are stuck in this belief that as long as they have pain just from throwing fastballs- that's ok- ice them up, give plenty of ibuporofin and wallah, let em go again two days later. This attitude is troubling because we believe that it is only curveballs thrown by youth that damages arm health short and long term.

It's good we have pitching limits in place in many organizations to help curb the problem. However, we will never get to the bottom of it (the injuries) until we can convince both players and parents (coaches too) the absolute imporatance of proper arm care, conditioning, and knowing when to stop and shut it down. It doesn;t matter what pitchers throw- be it a slider, fastball or knuckle ball. We need to be more aware that "overuse" is the main cause of throwing injuries and that players especially need to have a knowledge that it isn't good to pitch while either fatigued, sore, or injured!

Studies indicate that the curveball is no more stressful than throwing a fastball. However, throwing 15 curves in a row is dangerous if the curveball is thrown improperly. There is a correct way to throw a curveball. There is also an incorrect way to throw a curveball, which is the way that 95-99% of all pitchers throw it.

Injuries don't just come from overuse, they come from genetic disposition. If your father has a weak rotator cuff, you have an increased chance of rotator cuff injury. Same thing with the labrum, the UCL, and any other part of the body. Properly pitching mechanics can help lessen the risk, but it's mostly a function of genetics.

I think this can be summed up with one of those old sayings. If your right and I am wrong so what? But if Im right and your wrong, oh my!

Over use no doubt is dangerous. How much is over the top? For one player it may be too much. For another it might not be. There has to be some sort of boundary set just in case. Innings pitched? Pitches thrown in a game? Pitches thrown in or during an inning? How old is the player? How physically developed is the player? How many innings has he already thrown that year? It goes on and on. Pitch counts for a game. Pitch count for a inning. Proper rest between starts with proper recovery program. Proper prep for game throwing. Proper throwing mechanics. Etc etc

Then there is basic common sense. The player starts to lose his mechanics? He can't command his pitches. He loses velo. He starts to throw with a different arm action. He has obvious pain or discomfort. He complains of soreness, stiffness, pain.

I don't believe in breaking pitches for young players. I also believe in limiting breaking pitches for HS aged pitchers. Why? I don't believe that a fastball puts the same strain on the arm as a breaking pitch for a younger player. First of all they have not totally developed physically. They have not developed their ability to pitch totally. There is more strain on the arm , shoulder etc when throwing a breaking pitch than there is a fastball. Now thats my opinion. And if I am wrong so what? But what if I am right?

I have seen too many young kids with good arms never pitch in hs. First of all they were on the mound way too much. And secondly they were throwing breaking pitches at a young age. Did the over use lead to their demise or did the breaking pitches at a young age lead to their demise? I would say both. But if I am wrong so what?

What do you lose by not allowing young kids to throw breaking pitches? What do you gain by allowing them to throw them? Now ask yourself if its worth the potential risk? If your right and breaking pitches pose no more harm than throwing a fastball then what have you gained? But what if your wrong?

I have seen the torque that some young kids put on their arms when trying to throw breaking pitches. I have seen some young kids who could really spin it. But none of them ever were top arms at the hs level. For some reason they were not around by the age of 17 or 18. I have had some great arms over my time as a hs coach. Every one of them were guys that were born with a very good arm. Every one of them were guys that worked very hard. Long toss, core work, weight room when in hs, and they learned how to command the fastball. They worked on their off speed stuff in hs. But the bread and butter was the fastball and command of it.

If those that believe the curveball, slider does not pose anymore risk that throwing a fastball for a young pitcher is willing to risk their son's young arm then go for it. And if your right great. But what if your wrong? Is it worth it? Me I will not risk a kids future in the game based on a hunch, or a study, or anything outside of what I have personally seen over many years in the game. And that is the curveball, slider - breaking pitch does indeed put more stress on the arm than a fastball. And especially for kids who have not physically matured and have not properly learned how to throw them.

If I am wrong so what? If you are wrong you have to live with it. Many parents love the attention that their son gets by having success at a young age. And if that breaking pitch allows them to have that success then they go with "its not the breaking pitches" its over use. The bottom line is you can spin it all day long but if you don't have a certain level of velo behind that fastball your days are numbered very quickly in this game. And if your hanging by the time your 16 is it really going to matter what you did at 12? Over use is bad. Throwing breaking pitches at 11 and 12 --- not worth the risk. Unless your SURE you are right. Are you sure your right? If so you know more than a lot of folks who have been around the game for a long time.

I am not 100 percent sure. So I would rather err on the side of caution. Because its simply not worth the risk of being wrong. If I am wrong the kid has spent his time working on mechanics, command of his fastball and how to change speeds on his fastball. He has spent his time learning how to pitch. When he adds that off speed arsenal to his tool box he is even better. If you are wrong - oh my.

I remember sitting with a dad while his son was getting drilled in a middle school game. All he had was a fastball and a change up that was no more than a bp fastball. He simply didn't have the velo and command yet to dominate hitters his own age. His dad kept saying "If he would just learn a curveball." And I just sat there looking at a kid who I knew was going to be a stud once he learned how to command and got stronger. He is now pitching in the Majors.

The breaking pitch for kids 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 is fools gold. Once your in hs and your facing kids older, stronger, smarter who are not going to be fooled by simply a "breaking pitch" if you dont know how to pitch and you dont have a fastball that can command their respect your done. The last piece of the puzzle in my opinion is the mastery of the off speed arsenal. And it should be slowly worked into the tool box as the player matures both physically and mentally as a pitcher.

This is just my opinion. I may be wrong. But even if I am. I still feel I am right. Either way I can live with it.

Coach May,

Excellent!

Coach May,
Had a kid on my LL team at 12yo who had great success throwing curves at 11yo. His dad would ask me to call more curves. He had a good fastball so I didn't even consider it and told the dad the kid had a future because of his fastball and arm action. He now pitches for BYU.

The other kid from our area who had also targeted BYU was more successful in HS throwing lots and lots of sliders. He's out of the game.

I actually beleive that the use of the slider has not been in the best interest for my son. I believe that the slider poses an issue for most pitchers, even at the pro level. Has his issues been due to that breaking pitch or his velocity? There is no right or wrong answer. I can only say he never had any issue in his life until he began throwing that pitch in college. It's a good pitch for him, but now uses it in his limited role. He is throwing 95% FB (2 and 4) and feels great.

If it's not great for grown men, why would it be good for a growing boy?

An added note, if breaking balls are so great for youngsters, why do ML and former ML pitchers not allow their young pitchers to throw them?

Makes you have to stop and think.

I don't know about curves. I stayed away from them as much as possible with the youngsters because they tended to hurt my arm when I threw a lot of them in BP. Not very scientific reasoning there.

I think almost everyone agrees that the slider is hard on almost every arm. It is also a very effective pitch so it gets used.

Over the past few years, when I've asked a pitcher at tryouts (ages 12-14) what pitches they throw, more often than not the answer is "Fastball and Curveball." Sometimes they'll even toss in a Slider or a Knuckleball.

Seriously? Slider? Knuckleball? Where's the change up?

I'm no Orel Hersheiser, but I'm positive a young pitcher can go a long way with a fastball and a changeup.

Heres where I don't agree- A lot of people who may be coaches, Dads, ex-pro players are saying the breaking ball is very bad on young arms and saying nothing about overuse of just plain throwing. The recent studies by leading doctors and researchers are now coming to the pretty much overwhelming conclusion that injury in youth players is due primarily to "overuse" and not necessarily throwing breaking balls. Research by those same leading doctors and specialists are also now saying that more stress indeed is placed on the arm throwing a fastball over any other pitch.

I do agree however that the fastball is the number one goal for any pitcher to master and command and that they should work on that pitch paramount to all other offspeed pitches. But here is where it bothers me because we still have this dogmatic tradition of believing that only pre hs and even hs kids themselves who throw strictly fastballs and changeups make it to the big leagues. It's almost as if we preach this doctrine of throwing a myriad of fastballs and less offspeed is most healthy for an arm, and that when a pitcher does experience any kind of pain, the first place we look at is- how many curveballs did they throw? How many curveballs did Strasburg throw before TJS? He more than likely had surgery because of the velocity he throws at, period!


Don't get me wrong here, I am not necessarily advocating throwing and teaching kids to throw lots of breaking balls, I am just saying that the main emphasis needs to shift from the old dogma of "no curveballs before 15" and shift gears into teaching pitchers to better condition their arms, not throw while fatigued or injured, and not leave them in marathon pitching events or too many showcases where they throw too many hard fastballs that are most damaging and stressful on the arm.

Just curious but... I wonder what percentage of the top prospects on PerfectGame who attend their showcases as HS pitchers do not throw some type of breaking ball and throw it well at that? I mean, if we are going to really keep score, do the top prospects in the country who do go on to play post HS and perhaps even go on to get drafted, did they throw a breaking ball in HS and also threw it well?

I mean, if we are going to really keep score, do the top prospects in the country who do go on to play post HS and perhaps even go on to get drafted, did they throw a breaking ball in HS and also threw it well?

---------------------------------------------------

gbm

the top prospects in the country were most likely top prospects in HS. i'd bet that was mostly based on size/body type and velocity.

i have heard DR. Andrews say the cb is not good for young arms. that along with overuse is going to take it's toll on young arms. but you won't know it for years.

we do need to learn/teach proper development for pitchers etc. we need to remember 2 things.

1)youth baseball is a game, games are meant to be fun.

2)you can't train a 12 yr old like a man, keep it in perspective.

have fun with the process,when the fun stops..........

As usual; Coach May put this into a proper perspective. Why would you allow your son to take the chance??

I've said this before in various threads but there is absolutely "no doubt" in my mind that throwing a pitch that requires supination (normal curve balls and sliders) puts additional strain on the elbow.

No study needed, just 2000 years of teachings in the "striking arts" and your own demonstration. In Karate, it is taught to "twist" the arm inwards, thumbs down as you strike. One can literally throw power punches this way all day, everyday, without elbow pain. However, try it without "pronating" or worse yet, twisting outwards, "supinating," and see how you wince in pain as the elbow locks.

Try it your self, hold your fist near your body at shoulder height and then throw a punch pronating, then straight, then supinating.

No, I wouldn't allow my son to throw curve balls, in number, until Junior year of high school.

I don't buy the argument that the fastball causes more problems. My youth son, now in College, has thrown hard all his life without elbow or shoulder issues AND performed a "gazillion" power strike movements with both arms (As have I, all pronating, of course). By the way, rarely do the worlds best throwers, Javelin throwers, suffer elbow issues because you pronate throwing that thing which weighs more than the five ounces of a baseball. Again, common sense ought to prevail here.

Overuse, is definitely a problem with youth players. They do need rest and recovery time.

WHY TAKE A CHANCE? (well said; Coach May).