Long-toss debate shakes up MLB draft

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Shake up?...could also be that $30 Million figure...

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Does anyone have a list of which teams allow >120 feet for LT?

Nobody will know Bundy better than Bundy himself. If his regimen works, who are these teams to decide it don't.

As for playing for Pittsburgh, Bundy probably don't want to play there because they stink every year and one of the lowest payroll teams. He's looking for the big payday and a team that can win.

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Originally posted by zombywoof:
He's looking for the big payday and a team that can win.

Certainly can't fault him for that.

One thing is for certain, this Bundy kid sounds like a doggone STUD. 18yr old throwing 100mph? Are you kidding me? wow. That is phenomenal.

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Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
Does anyone have a list of which teams allow >120 feet for LT?

As far as I am aware in son's organization you do what you feel comfortable with but you must toss. I never thought that any team had anything set in stone.
Since Lincecum came along, things have changed, I was under the assumption that teams improved upon the pitchers ability, but no complete overhauls.

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Originally posted by jdawg_24:

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Originally posted by zombywoof:
He's looking for the big payday and a team that can win.

Certainly can't fault him for that.

No, you can't. And a kid who can throw that hard, that much and wants the ball that much can pitch for me anyday.

When a player that has had that much success doing something they believe has contributed greatly to that success I can certainly understand their desire to be allowed to continue to do it.

120 feet isn't very far either...for someone throwing with that sort of velocity it's practically a flick of the wrist.

This has been a long-term debate that has been going on in pitching circles for quite some time. ASMI has done some studies on it that are more or less inconclusive. (from a medical standpoint) Jaeger Sports has been a proponent of LT for many years and has quite a following, then you have contrarian guys like Dick Mills who say no. MLB has been slow to adopt it since they have a lot of hard money sunk into pitchers so they don’t like to change what they have been doing unless they have some good evidence that it is beneficial. You are seeing more and more organizations allowing it now, and some more scientific work is being done in this area. I could see that if I was a player who had a lot of success using a method that he would be reluctant to change his approach. It is a difficult thing to measure since there are genetic reasons a kid throws 100MPH. You can’t take a kid and get him to LT and then suddenly change him into a 100MPH arm. It is a routine practice in many colleges now, so I think the MLB is slowly adapting. It does make an interesting story however when you have a 100MPH kid signing a $10M contract, and then want to significantly change his routine.

I think one of the critical benefits of long-toss is arm speed. To throw for distance you are forced to increase arm speed. Yes, you can have arm speed to throw 120 feet, but you are not forced to do so.

If you run, you can run for speed. But if a pit bull is chasing you, you are forced to run for speed!

Watched the kid a few times this year. He is absolutely incredible. He could probably tell a team that he only wanted to be drafted if they gave him a home in Italy and a 1952 Alfa Romeo Disco Volante and they would obey like ducks in a line. Never seen a talent like him.

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Originally posted by Bum:
I think one of the critical benefits of long-toss is arm speed. To throw for distance you are forced to increase arm speed. Yes, you can have arm speed to throw 120 feet, but you are not forced to do so.

If you run, you can run for speed. But if a pit bull is chasing you, you are forced to run for speed!

Exactly Bum. I never understood the argument that LT doesn't help build strength, endurance and arm speed.

BUM, I think your two sentence explaination is the most concise explaination I have seen supporting LT. I used to say that it gave you a measurable way to see how you are progressing, but your is much better. Nice job.

Bum has posted on the benefits of long toss for a long time now. You can bet that when this topic comes up he is going to post in short order of the benefits of long toss. It's because he has seen the benefits of it and the success one can have with a solid lt program and a consistent approach. I am right there with him. I have seen what it can do and what it has done for several players. As the ability to throw from the goal line to the other 20 goes to the ability to throw from the goal line to the other goal line the velocity increase is recorded and seen. When that same kid can now throw from the goal line to the back of the end zone that velo increase comes as well.

I used to have a good arm. I could throw all day. I had no problem long tossing with some of the players. Then I started throwing bp all the time. Never stretching out my arm. Throwing from 40 45 feet every day. I tried to stretch my arm out and throw 90' and it felt like I was trying to throw 300. Watch a couple of guys who can really throw. Watch them go through a long toss routine. When they work back in and get to around 60 feet they almost can't catch each other. The ball is exploding out of their hands. They are throwing from 60' with the same effort and arm speed that it took to throw 300 plus feet.

If you want to increase arm speed and you want to increase velocity get on a serious long toss program and be consistent with it.

Bum and Coach May have nailed it. Long toss does help with velocity and arm speed. It's very beneficial and needs to be done.

Increased "strength" does not equal increased velocity.

Increased "endurance" does not equal increased velocity.

What can I do in 300 foot LT that I can't do on the mound? Other than learn a different motion?

LT allows you to learn to crow hop in order to flip your trunk over/around. You must learn to flip your trunk faster on the mound, without crow hopping. Only then will you increase your velocity on the mound.

I don't have any problem saying that LT is a good program for overall conditioning (and for outfielders), but to say it improves velocity on the mound is a stretch (pun intended).

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I don't have any problem saying that LT is a good program for overall conditioning (and for outfielders), but to say it improves velocity on the mound is a stretch (pun intended).

Sultan, I'm not one to argue but increased velocity is transferable I would bet, even if the mechanics to achieve it differ between LT and pitching.

I'd bet my money on the pitcher who can LT the farthest and achieves the highest velocity. Put em on the mound and I bet on that dude! Power is power. The reason they move strong armed non-hitting position players to the mound is precisely because that velocity DOES transfer.

There was a player on my son's summer collegiate team who routinely long-tossed with Bum, Jr. This kid has been doing it for years as well. You might know this young man, but if you don't you will soon.. his name is J.R. Graham and he was hitting 98 MPH off the mound. He will go in the upper rounds. Bum, Jr. said when he got to the pulldown phase of long-toss the ball exploded out of J.R.'s hand. Son said he wasn't scared to play catch with him but he d*** sure paid attention.