Looking fastball -- adjust to off-speed?

In the case mentioned, tell your son to reset when he sees that it is a knuckler.

At that age, the difference in pitch speed between the two should allow the reset.

I've seen batters at many age levels swing, miss and swing again at an unexpected knuckle ball.

Adjusting to any off speed pitch requires that he see that type of pitch in batting practice to develop the adjustment. Depending on his batting style , the adjustment would be a timing delay of some sort. The experience of seeing the off speed such as a curve or change in batting practice will make it almost second nature.

Quincy,

Are you saying that he should completely stop his swing and start over while the pitch is in the air? That is insane.

And have you ever seen a major leaguer, minor leaguer or college player ever swing, miss, and swing again at the same pitch? If you have, you are probably the first.

The fact of the matter is that at any level, if a pitcher throws a good offspeed pitch, you have little chance to make good, solid contact. The thing is, find me a pitcher who can throw 3 nasty offspeed pitche for strikes and I will find a million others who can't. You are likely to get a fastball to hit during your at bat as long as you don't chase the breaking balls out of the zone, so look for the heater until you get two strikes.

Jon, I believe you gave your son good advice, because if you are looking fastball and he gets a breaking ball, keeping the hands back is the most important thing. Stopping forward momentum is tough, if not impossible to do, but if you keep the hands back as best you can, you give yourself a chance to at least fight the pitch off and get a knock, which is what is sounds like your son did.

However, I would advise that you work with your son to look for one pitch with less than two strikes, because hitting is hard enough as it is. Especially as a youngster, look for fastballs because the kids will very rarely command breaking balls. So if he gets a breaking ball when he is looking for a fastball, unless its a hanger begging to be hit, he should take it because that's not what he is looking for. If he is looking for a breaking ball, all that changes is the timing of when he swings, which is for him to work out by paying attention to what the pitcher throws.

I would teach pitch recognition before worrying about HITTING the breaking ball, because if he can lay off the breaking ball and attack the fastball, he will put himself in a better position to make consistent, hard contact.

I have seen Major Leaguers make complete fools of themselves trying to hit a knuckler.

I particularly got a few laughs at Hoyt Wilhelm's no hitting the Yankees. Even as a Yankee fan, it was hysterical at times.

.

Quincy,

True, big leaguers have looked like fools trying to hit the knuckle ball, but they don't try and restart their swing. You cannot swing, miss, and swing again. The only time i saw that Bugs Bunny was pitching. And you didn't answer my first question from before...

You have to get out more.

Not only have a I seen Major Leaguers do it on a knuckler, I've seen them do it on Steve Hamilton's 'Folly Floater'.

An 11 year old's knuckler would have plenty of 'hang time' to reset.

.

No matter the pitch, the first movement of the bat should not be forward...Not for a fastball or an offspeed pitch.........

Quincy,

I play baseball for a living, is that "getting out" enough for you?

Please explain how you can reset during a pitch when you have less than a second to react. I wish I could do it, yes, but it is impossible, unless you are maybe playing slow pitch softball.

If you have video evidence of major leaguers practicing this, please let me see it.

And you still haven't answered my first question: Are you saying that you can completely stop and restart your swing while the pitch is in the air? If you are, YOU need to get out more.

You may have played but that doesn't change the facts.

This may be a case where you may be better served to say that you never saw such a thing. But then you never saw a 'Folly Floater' from Steve Hamilton following a fast ball.

I said it clearly and plainly. What don't you understand?

An 11 year old's knuckler will allow enough 'hang time' for the batter to reset.

That was the example mentioned and the reply is based on those circumstances.

Having played does not make you an authority on anything.

.

Quincy,

You are far too intelligent to keep saying the things you do.

Things like this can not help any young hitter or a dad trying to teach his kid how to hit.

quote:

By Quincy - In the case mentioned, tell your son to reset when he sees that it is a knuckler.

At that age, the difference in pitch speed between the two should allow the reset.

I've seen batters at many age levels swing, miss and swing again at an unexpected knuckle ball.

Adjusting to any off speed pitch requires that he see that type of pitch in batting practice to develop the adjustment. Depending on his batting style , the adjustment would be a timing delay of some sort. The experience of seeing the off speed such as a curve or change in batting practice will make it almost second nature.

Have you truly seen "batters at many age levels swing, miss, and swing again at an unexpected knuckle ball"?

First of all, how many knuckle ball pitchers do you see? And when there is one, why would the knuckle ball be so unexpected? And no matter what, "how" do you reset and at what level have you ever seen a hitter swing twice at one pitch?

Sorry, but you say some of the strangest things at times. Are you pulling our leg?

Tony Horton had the best shot to hit the 'Folly Floater' because he was a good hitter.

A batter who has never seen a knuckler, a rather uncommon pitch, especially in the days before video tape will react to normal speed and look real bad.

The 'Folly Floater' was more uncommon.

Seeing the 'Folly Floater' itself would have one asking if Hamilton was pulling our legs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFvp7kMraAw

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Quincy,

Not playing definitely does not make you an authority and I am a video evidence type of guy, so if you have video evidence of a "reset" please show me. Also, an 11 year old is throwing from 46 feet away, not 60. Add to that that a knuckle ball is not a "folly floater," (which I have seen on tape) or eephus coming in at 50mph, as Steve Hamilton's was (just ask anybody who has faced Tim Wakefield's 70mph knuckler, as I have). So, a knuckle ball from an 11 year old coming in from 46 feet can still not be characterized as a "floater."

Teaching a hitter to "reset" is a poor technique for any age or any offspeed pitch. The whole purpose of any offspeed pitch is to get the hitter off balance, so if you don't want a hitter to get off balance, teaching pitch recognition should be the first thing taught. Quincy, I do agree with your first post in that the adjustment needs to do with timing, but a reset is not the way to do it, whether a knuckle ball, "folly floater," curve ball, slider, gyroball, or any other offspeed pitch you can think of. The reset will never work beyond the slow pitch softball field.

From my so called "having played" I have seen first hand that the only way to hit offspeed hard consistently is to see it up in the zone and attack it when its there. if its down in the zone, its probably going to be a ball, and the more offspeed you take for balls, the more chances you will get to hit a fastball in the zone.

If a batter was to swing at a pitch and miss??
And then was to swing again at the same pitch?
would that be 2 strike's on the Batter.

If not 2 strike's.
Then why would the Ump allow you to swing the second time at the same pitch.
It seems to me that it would be called a strike after the first pitch??
Of coarse i've never seen it happen before.
Maybe the more experianced people hear could explain?

Adjustment's yes. Keeping your hand's back.
Resetting i'm not sure you will have the time to do that.
JMO
EH

You are confusing off speed with an 11 year old's knuckle ball.

Tell me what speed the 'Folly Floater' is traveling.

.

Is there a rule that only allows one attempt to hit a pitch still approaching the plate?

That's one for the rules guys.

.

Quincy,

If you want to teach 11 year olds to "reset," go ahead, but as long as I see big leaguers staying back and timing the knuckle ball, I'm going to teach that.

In the clip you sent me, I still se no "resetting" on the "folly floater." Please, if you do have evidence of players using a reset and it working, show me.

Please just stick to using pitch recognition as the base of teaching kids to pick up breaking balls. Forget the knuckle ball or the "folly floater." As far as i know today, there are two knuckle ball pitchers I can name in the show: Wakefield and Charlie Haeger. The advice I have been given from those who have faced them i simple "if its high, let it fly, if its low let it go." I think thats the philosophy Aaron Boone used...

Oh, and the "folly floater" is traveling slow, really really slow. Yet I am never going to work on trying to hit it because I will never see it.

That film clip of the Folly Floater is hilarious! Thanks for posting it. How high did he throw that?

Did I send you a clip?

Thought sure I posted it on here.

The fact that there is no video of the reset that I can present is not proof of it not happening. Many batters swing at the motion and pray.

Teach what you feel is right. There is no one perfect way in baseball that applies to all players.

PG,

It must have been 30 to 45 feet high. Made for great entertainment and bad looking pro hitters.

.

PG, That pitch should be called a balk?
He the pitcher stops his delivery, and then starts again.
Thats a balk?
Also isn't there a hieght limit on pitches??
EH

He never really stops.

I don't recall a height limit in baseball, only softball.

.

Someone should have told Horton to swing on the plane of the pitch.

Linear or rotational ?

Strong front side?

.

So your saying if a pitcher can throw the ball 100' into the air and drop it onto the plate it's a legal pitch.

Now if the ball dropped almost straight down onto the plate,
at some point in that balls travel ( about 3 feet above the plate ) it should be called a strike by the ump?
even if the catcher did not catch the ball on the fly. Correct??

Only if the umpire calls it a strike.

.

quote:

Originally posted by theEH:
So your saying if a pitcher can throw the ball 100' into the air and drop it onto the plate it's a legal pitch.

Now if the ball dropped almost straight down onto the plate,
at some point in that balls travel ( about 3 feet above the plate ) it should be called a strike by the ump?
even if the catcher did not catch the ball on the fly. Correct??

Would that be considered a sinker??? LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzH0k5dD8MI&mode=related&search=



Here's a semi reset for you.

That's the best hitter in the world right now, and he couldn't even reset. All he tried to do was stay back. If A-rod can't do it, I'll go so far as to say nobody can on any pitch.

I'm not sure if this will be helpful but the specifics of the original example were this....11 yr old pitching from 50 foot rubber (USSSA rules), his fastball was around 55mph and I'd estimate his knuckleball/change in the mid-high 30's.

Jon

quote:

Originally posted by beemax:
That's the best hitter in the world right now, and he couldn't even reset. All he tried to do was stay back. If A-rod can't do it, I'll go so far as to say nobody can on any pitch.

The more movement you have in your swing, the goofier you will look. The thing that saves ARod, with that high leg kick, is that he stays long through the zone. If you noticed how he pulled his front foot out when he finally swung, it may be why he has developed the big leg kick in the first place.

Hitting Aids

Gyro Bat

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQ6mVNDXqb0

.

micmeister,

Are you saying that the leg kick A-Rod has is actually a flaw in his approach? Please explain.

I believe its tough to break down his swing because he was completely fooled by the pitch. However if you rememeber, when he was with Texas he hit a home run off of El Duque in New york off of his eephus.

quote:

Originally posted by willj1967:
I'm not sure if this will be helpful but the specifics of the original example were this....11 yr old pitching from 50 foot rubber (USSSA rules), his fastball was around 55mph and I'd estimate his knuckleball/change in the mid-high 30's.

Jon

Would ARod be able to reset on a knuckle ball from an 11 year old?

Is it a matter of 'time to reset' or an 'inability to adjust and reset'?

.

quote:

Originally posted by beemax:
micmeister,

Are you saying that the leg kick A-Rod has is actually a flaw in his approach? Please explain.

I believe its tough to break down his swing because he was completely fooled by the pitch. However if you rememeber, when he was with Texas he hit a home run off of El Duque in New york off of his eephus.

No, I would say it is his trigger mechanism and it works for him. I'm just saying it will look more strange when you have a lot of movement in the start of your swing if your timing gets disrupted.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:

quote:

Originally posted by willj1967:
I'm not sure if this will be helpful but the specifics of the original example were this....11 yr old pitching from 50 foot rubber (USSSA rules), his fastball was around 55mph and I'd estimate his knuckleball/change in the mid-high 30's.

Jon

Would ARod be able to reset on a knuckle ball from an 11 year old?

Is it a matter of 'time to reset' or an 'inability to adjust and reset'?

.

I think a pitch that slow is difficult for anyone with great batspeed to hit. I've seen many examples of baseball players first starting to play slow pitch softball and having lots of trouble hitting the ball. Lots of swings and misses, pop-ups, and ground outs in the beginning.

Would ARod be able to reset on a knuckle ball from an 11 year old?

This question is totally irrelevant to the converstaion here and I still want the main focus of this to be on jon's question at the beginning:

I'd like some feedback from the players or instructors here on how you approach the off-speed pitch (mechanically). How, physically, do you adjust if you're looking fastball? If you stop any forward (linear) movement to wait on the pitch, is it possible to restart some forward movement into rotation, or must you just rotate from a static position? Or should you forget rotation and just keep the hands back and try to make an arm swing the other way? Should you even try to go the other way with the pitch in this instance, or is simply hitting it hard somewhere the only realistic goal?

I think we have had our fun debating how to hit a knucleball, or a "folly floater" or an eephus, and we should focus on typical offspeed pitches now. Hitters are going to see sliders, curveballs and changeups as the most common offspeed, so why worry about hitting something you are rarely if ever going to see (knuckleball or eephus)?

Seeing typical offspeed pitches, no matter what age is throwing them, allows no time to "reset." If you try to teach your kid this technique it will only hinder his development.

When I hit, whether its batting practice or a game, I am always looking at the pitcher, no where else. I focus on his shoes, his belt, the logo on his glove, whatever spot i can focus on that is, for me, 60 feet, 6 inches away. If i try to look at the shortstop, for example, now my eyes have focused on something that is not the pitcher and will have to re-adjust which takes time. When you have less than a second to react, time is everything.

As the pitcher gets his sign, I am focusing on the things I said before, I always finish at the logo on his hat. Why? Because that is 99% of the time, the closest point you can focus on with relation to where his release point is.

Now that I have my eyes completely focused on the pitcher, I wait until he is ready to realease to look at his release point. Since my eyes are focused in that area, I have the best chance to pick up spin on the ball. Curves usually have a 12 to 6 type of spin (or at least thats the idea behind them ) and sliders have more of a side spin. Fastballs have a true backspin and changeups look to work off of the fastball, disguising themselves as one to get you out front in your swing.

The sooner I pick up spin, the sooner I can make a decision to swing or not. The sooner I pick up spin, the better hitter I will be because I will not chase as many bad pitches.

Jon, again, my advice would be to work with him on picking up spin so he recognize different pitches, because that is the first step in approaching offspeed pitches. Once he begins to distinguish what one looks like from another, he can key on certain pitches as he plays. This is the thought process I work at every day during the season and it's tough, so I wouldn't get too in depth with your 11 year old. I would just start by throwing him batting practice if you can and mixing up pitches as you work with where he should be focusing. FOCUSING YOUR EYES ON THE PITCHER IS KEY! As Ted Williams states in his book, the first rule of hitting is "Get a good pitch to hit." Hitting is hard enough as it is, so the better he can be a pitch selection, the better hitter he will become.

As for the mechanics of hitting the breaking ball, its no different mechanically than hitting a fastball. The only thing that changes is timing. However, like I said before, if you can teach your son to hit the fastball and lay off the breaking ball, you will be going in the right direction in terms of development. And as Willie Mays said, "How do I hit the breaking ball? I hit the fastball first."

quote:

Originally posted by willj1967:
I'm not sure if this will be helpful but the specifics of the original example were this....11 yr old pitching from 50 foot rubber (USSSA rules), his fastball was around 55mph and I'd estimate his knuckleball/change in the mid-high 30's.

Jon

The original question was based on these circumstances.

I know what you are trying to say overall, but we have to stay within the parameters of the original question in order to give suggestions that would be applicable.

.

My suggestions are applicable because I have used them for thousands of at bats from little league to high school to the Pac-10 to the minor leagues. I've seen pitches anywhere from 30mph to 99mph and I have seen every off speed pitch there is. Getting the basics of pitch recognition is the first step no matter what distance the pitch is thrown from or what speed it is thrown. I understand the circumstances of the question, and my previous post was what I have proven to work on the field IMO.

But you have never seen or batted against the Folly Floater.

You must be selling something to be so insistent that you are in possession of the Holy Grail of Baseball.

.

quote:

Jon, again, my advice would be to work with him on picking up spin so he recognize different pitches, because that is the first step in approaching offspeed pitches. Once he begins to distinguish what one looks like from another, he can key on certain pitches as he plays.

Perhaps it would be a good drill to have him stand in the box without a bat and try to see how quickly he can call out each pitch that I throw to him??

Jon

This may be good reading before doing so.

http://pitchingprofessor.com/article_reading_the_ball.html

Quincy,

Who have you taught and where are they at?

You continue to speak of the folly floater...it was a great idea and Hamilton got a few guys out with it. But I know for certain that you have never batted against the folly floater and it is completely irrelevant to this conversation that I am trying to continue here to help Jon with his son and the approach to breaking balls.

I am not in possession of any Holy Grail, just information that has been passed down to me and that I have learned from actually playing the game and studying it. I learn something new every day, so if you want to call that possessing the Holy Grail, go ahead. I simply call it experience and education.

Have you ever played baseball Quincy? And if so, what is your experience level?

Throughout this thread I have tried to stay on the issue raised by Jon. While you were successful in highjacking the thread to attempt to denigrate others and boost your own ego, I tried to stay on topic.

You can share your experience and education without the 'extras' and be appreciated far more and taken more serious.

Quincy,

Are you saying that he should completely stop his swing and start over while the pitch is in the air? That is insane

.

Q,

If I have offended you I am sorry, I get passionate about talking hitting. I am all for staying on topic and being taken serious.

For you, I was just wondering what you experience level was?

I am no longer interested in getting into post battles with you. I'm glad that we both agree that we want to stay on topic, but IMO, some of your opinions need to be questioned because the bottom line in this post is that Jon's son needs assistance in his approach to breaking balls, and I feel that your opinions are a detriment to him.

I think its great that you want to help, as I do, but there has to be accountablility behind your theories, and from what I've read, I dont see any. That's why I ask you experinece level.

Let it suffice to say that I was offerred some money at a time when money wasn't that great.

I felt that if I wanted to be traveling the country and being away from home for little money, I might as well join the circus.

.

quote:

Originally posted by beemax:
I'd like some feedback from the players or instructors here on how you approach the off-speed pitch (mechanically). How, physically, do you adjust if you're looking fastball? If you stop any forward (linear) movement to wait on the pitch, is it possible to restart some forward movement into rotation, or must you just rotate from a static position? Or should you forget rotation and just keep the hands back and try to make an arm swing the other way? Should you even try to go the other way with the pitch in this instance, or is simply hitting it hard somewhere the only realistic goal?


Seeing typical offspeed pitches, no matter what age is throwing them, allows no time to "reset." If you try to teach your kid this technique it will only hinder his development.

When I hit, whether its batting practice or a game, I am always looking at the pitcher, no where else. I focus on his shoes, his belt, the logo on his glove, whatever spot i can focus on that is, for me, 60 feet, 6 inches away. If i try to look at the shortstop, for example, now my eyes have focused on something that is not the pitcher and will have to re-adjust which takes time. When you have less than a second to react, time is everything.

As the pitcher gets his sign, I am focusing on the things I said before, I always finish at the logo on his hat. Why? Because that is 99% of the time, the closest point you can focus on with relation to where his release point is.

Now that I have my eyes completely focused on the pitcher, I wait until he is ready to realease to look at his release point. Since my eyes are focused in that area, I have the best chance to pick up spin on the ball. Curves usually have a 12 to 6 type of spin (or at least thats the idea behind them ) and sliders have more of a side spin. Fastballs have a true backspin and changeups look to work off of the fastball, disguising themselves as one to get you out front in your swing.

The sooner I pick up spin, the sooner I can make a decision to swing or not. The sooner I pick up spin, the better hitter I will be because I will not chase as many bad pitches.

FOCUSING YOUR EYES ON THE PITCHER IS KEY! As Ted Williams states in his book, the first rule of hitting is "Get a good pitch to hit." Hitting is hard enough as it is, so the better he can be a pitch selection, the better hitter he will become.

As for the mechanics of hitting the breaking ball, its no different mechanically than hitting a fastball. The only thing that changes is timing. However, like I said before, if you can teach your son to hit the fastball and lay off the breaking ball, you will be going in the right direction in terms of development. And as Willie Mays said, "How do I hit the breaking ball? I hit the fastball first."

Some good advice in this post. I learned a few years ago listening to Tony Gwynn, that he always focused on the bill of the pitcher's cap and moved over to release point at the point it started to drop. I have found this to be very good advice. It allows you to have your eyes near the release point, but not really frozen on anything specific.

As far as what Jon should do with his son and offspeed pitches is this. Try to minimize your son's head movement and step to release of the ball on his toe and track the ball to contact point. Dropping his heel in time to get to a good solid contact position. For an 11 or 12 year old to get any off speed pitch to the plate it will leave the pitcher's hand going up first. The only recognition he needs to learn is the release points and then just track the ball. He can learn and practice the pitcher's release points while in the dugout or while on deck.

The advice from Ted Williams "get a good pitch to hit" is the best advice you will ever get. The second best is this, "don't get stressed out about strike one or two, you're not out until you miss strike three."

Perhaps it would be a good drill to have him stand in the box without a bat and try to see how quickly he can call out each pitch that I throw to him??

Jon

I think this would be a good drill Jon and sorry for not getting back sooner. I would have him holding the bat in his stance to make it as realistic as possible. I think any drills you come up with the idea of pitch recognition in mind is probably going to be good. Remember he's only 11, but if you can find a way to have fun with it go on ahead.

As you go along you can make each pitch into a situation (0 and 2, runner on second base, no outs for example). This way he can start to develop a thought process as to why the pitcher will throw the pitch and what counts to expect it in. For me, many 0-2 pitches are out of the zone as the pitcher is looking to strike me out (we can do another thread on two strike approach later) and they are usually offspeed. Just the opposite, 2-0 he should be looking for a fastball to hit hard. I'll stop before I go off on too much of a rant, but if you have more questions I'll be more than glad to help

beemax,

Your involvement here will be greatly appreciated by many. Hope you find the time during the off season to post frequently.

You've brought up a few things already that IMO need to be discussed here. Hope these topics get discussed/debated/argued.

1 - 2 strike approach for one thing.
2 - Vision/tracking
3 - Mental side to hitting

Quincy,

Most players in professional baseball would have much too large of an ego to post here trying to help others for absolutely no gain. Perhaps we can all learn a thing or two.

beemax and deemax... Man, you sure can see the "Like father... Like son"! And in my opinion that is a very good thing around here.

Thanks again Doug!

PG

I am with you 100%---I am not sure that Quincy had the pleasure of knowing Doug---But I agree "Thankks Doug"


Quincy--- just so you are aware withnthese two young men I do not think ego's are involved !!!

Now we are really talking hitting. To heck with this other nonsense.

As hitters progress the approach will progress or at least should progress. When my son was younger I taught him the look fastball adjust to off speed approach. As he has gotten older and much smarter at the plate he now makes the adjustment from pitch to pitch, place in the order he hits, on count, pitchers approach during others abs etc etc. He has had alot of success sitting on cbs and change ups in HS because that it what he normally gets in the strike zone. Most of the time when he gets a fastball its for a ball out of the zone and then the pitcher will try to get him on an off speed in the zone. Plus alot of HS kids do not have the kind of heater that keeps a good hitter honest. You can sit on off speed and still rake the fb. When the pitchers are better look for a fastball count and dont worry about being wrong just be ready to be right. If your sitting on an 2-0 count what have you lost if you sit on a fb and get deuced for a strike? You are still in the drivers seat at 2-1. Start the process all over again. One thing I have found that helps alot is to learn to hit the ball deep in the zone. This will allow you to see the ball longer and helps with pitch recognition as well as late movement etc. Too many hitters try to hit too early. Let the ball get deep. Of course this takes experience and it takes bat speed. It is the reason velocity is and always will be important for pitchers. It shortens the reaction time for the hitter. It forces the hitter to make his decision earlier. I guess Im rambling now but its nice to have people here that talk real hitting and reality. A hitter must trust his ability to get the bat in the zone after seeing the baseball - "Trust your hands" remember that one? Your son could be hitting the ball out of the pitchers hand so to speak. He has a predetermined swing thought process working. Bounce baseball at him. Skip them in. This will force him to watch the ball all the way in in order to make contact. Use the ladder drill. Drop the baseballs like soft toss from a ladder and tell him he can not hit it untill it goes below his waist. These are excellent drills. Good Luck

Gamer did you make it to UNCC this weekend? I could not make it up I was going to try and find you if I did. Im hearing alot of good things about your son.

Thats right we played you guys at Wingate on Saturday but the field was wet so I think they did some kind of simulated scrimmage. We were at UNCC on Sunday. NO , I did not make it up this weekend. We are at Louisburg College Saturday to play those guys and then NC State the next weekend. I know what you mean. It can get crazy. I hope to see you soon.