"Low D1"

These are good questions.

A low D1 is someone who does not win (well below .500 winning percentage). A high D1 is probably an Omaha contender - someone you might see on ESPN or in a power conference like the SEC, PAC-10, ACC, or Big 12. A mid-D1 is probably a competitive program but probably needs many lucky ducks to line up to make a serious tournament run. For example, they might need a whole boat load of 4th and 5th year seniors to give a high-end team a run for their money in a regional setting.

At each level of baseball (D1, D2, D3, NAIA, JUCO), there are outstanding programs, medium programs, and losers (or bad baseball-wise as you put it). My opinion is that losing is no fun. There are D3's out there known for great baseball and academics that would be better fit than a low D1. My son like many kids wanted to play D1 baseball and he got a lucky break and that happened for him. If the D1 opportunity wouldn't have happened, he was set to commit to a D3 program who came within an eyelash of the D3 world series this year. I really don't care if some disagree with me on this but I would rather win at D3 than lose at D1. You can also get an excellent education at a D3 as well.

I'd consider most of the Ivies as a whole as low D1. Other than that go to Boyd's RPI to get a feel.

Conference Rankings

Here are the conference rankings. Perhaps the lower 3rd of these would be considered low D1 with allowances made for down years or up years for a conference. This implies that the Ivy league was near the top of the low D1 pack or even at the bottom of the mid D1 pack last year.

Thanks for the link, that was VERY helpful in thinking about school for my son!

emeraldvlly,

"Low D1" - That is a valuable piece of information if it is coming from a knowledgable baseball source. You now know where to "fish".

The conference rankings (URL in above post) can be helpful in evaluating baseball levels. My son and I reviewed these rankings last year as well to see where the schools/conferences that were interested in my son lined up in terms of baseball only. We had a seperate ranking for academics. My son will be playing D1 baseball (lower conference ranking 17-32) and studying engineering as your son wants to do. It all depends on the school, conference, schedule in terms of balancing sports and academics. We played particular attention to that before making our decision.

I understand it can be a difficult to evaluate all this infromation and make a decision. There are many fantastic D3s out there, as well as strong lower D1's that can provide an excellent student/athlete experience. It just depends on your priorities and passions.

Feel free to PM me if you have specific questions. Thanks.

That link is helpful - looks like the WCC is mid-D1? There are a few schools in there of interest to my son, but it may be a stretch.
I agree, and I think son would as well, that winning - and playing - on a team is preferable to losing, or sitting, for 4 years! ClevelandDad explained it all very well, I think. Since my son has a pretty good GPA and good test scores, a D3 that wins is sounding good. We've never been thinking along the lines of a scholarship for baseball, because we always figured that most of the money goes to pitching. (he's a catcher). So division level isn't as important as academics and the enjoyment of the game.
I sure wish a WCC team was possible - I selfishly want him to be no more than a quick day's drive away! He claims not to care where in the country he ends up.

emeraldvlly,

One of the huge differences with D1 vs D3 is athletic scholarship money. There is no athletic scholarship money in D3 for any sport. Typically there is merit aid for high achievers in the classroom, and financial aid for those who need it. You will need to talk specifics to the school he is interested in to get an idea of financial packages.

Yes, a lot of the athletic scholarship money goes to pitchers but in D1,D2.

Fenway, Thanks, but I guess I wasn't clear....we know there isn't athletic money at D3's - I was just trying to make the point that the division level isn't important. (didn't make the point very clearly!) We have been trying to figure out what "low D1's" might be compatible with what my son is looking for both academically and athletically. And what a "low D1" is!
CaBB - I hope 08Dad chimes in!

emeraldvlly - of course, there are no hard and fast rules in all this. A low D1 on the West Coast might be a high or mid D1 on the East Coast. Things are relative. Evan Longoria did not get a scholarship out of high school and instead wound up at a JUCO. He is arguably one of the top young players in all of baseball and many people obviously missed on him.

I think living on the west coast as you do, the rules and classifications are a little different. By that, I mean that there are more D1 players than there are D1 opportunites out there. To use your example, I would be reluctant to classify any school in the WCC as a low D1 even though some of them do not have winning records. At the end of the day, each person has to decide for themselves what a low D1 opportunity is.

Okay, gotcha. Good luck in your search for D3 with engineering in the PNW.

We had a real dilema during our initial search 12-18 months ago. We live in Virginia, and there were almost no D3 top level enigneering schools with good baseball teams in the region. We had to broaden our search early on in the process to meet my son's requirements. He ended up at his dream school. I hope you have the luck we had.

I totally agree with ClevelandDad on this point...it seems there are more D1 players than D1 opportunuties on the West coast. My son will play for an East coast D1 school that had 10 California players out 30 players in 2010. Of the 10 freshman they are bringing in, 6 are from HI/CA/AZ/WA/OR. This team will be half West Coast in 2011. The coach is an alum and from CA.

Again, best of luck in your search.

I think it is valuable to look at the assessment of your son as being a "low D-1" as someone saying to you that he will not play much at all if he goes to a D-1, will ride the bench, and doesn't project as doing anything more than that. I hope that doesn't sound harsh. Because the person who said it is doing you and your son a big favor, especially given the fact he wants to be an engineer. Engineering sections at many schools conflict with baseball practice and engineering is clearly a very demanding major.

If that is the only assessment you have, and you have compared him to other players who are on your summer team, high school, and league who actually went on to play D-1 baseball, and he hasn't received any interest from any D-1 coaches/programs then you should not waste time looking at the D-1 programs unless you simply want your son going to a tryout to say he did it. I think ClevelandDad's advice is right on.

emeraldvlly,

My son was recruited by what would be considered top 1/3 programs in top conferences, but decided that playing chances were very important for him. He also has a chance to play with some HS team mates,one who he has played with since he was 11. He also would like to help an improving program continue to make even more noise on the national level. How does any program get better if kids are not willing to go there and help them improve there level of play. He was offered by CSUN FRESNO ST UNLV and NEW MEXICO ST. Yet he decided STONY BROOK in NY was a better fit and would give him more chances to play and graduate. Also the campus is in nicer area than some of the others and should give a good college experience. The weather will be a factor for sure, but so is it for many minor league parks in this country. Also the school graduates 80plus percent of its athletes, which is important for our family. Hope you can find the right fit for your son and his future, which for most of it is after baseball is over. Also the school has a great engineering department, and had 3 pre-med athletes on campus(none which were baseball players).

CELTDAD - If you would have asked me one year ago about Stony Brook, I might have had a different opinion than I do now. I just saw them in two regional games and they earned my respect. They appear to be building something exciting there.

Your story is a good one, sometimes you might have to look to other regions to find the best fit.

emeraldvlly:

Five years ago we (my son and I as his father) were in the same boat. As a CA kid he was not getting alot of love from the west coast schools. He had an opportunity at a WCC that at the time had a horible record as an invited walk-on. We knocked on a lot of doors and he received a small scholly offer from a Low D1 in SoCarolina.

He ultimatly choose a D3 in Tx. He wanted to play right away and he too was looking at engineering (he found out that it was too difficult while playing BB). He got to play 4-years, took his team to the NCAA tournament twice, hit a 3-run homer agains D1 Notre Dame and played 3-years of collegiate summer ball in three of the better leagues.

As has been noted; there are far more kids on the west coast than opportunities to play D1 baseball. The reality is that it may require you to either expand your horizons both as to level and to geography if you want your son to play college ball.

Unless you see a pro career in your son's future; D3 baseball is terrific. Find a school where your son will find joy in his life academically, socially and athletically.

emeraldvlly:

What kind of engineering does your son have in mind? It really makes a big difference in deciding where to go.

There are two main D3 Conferences on the west coast - the Northwest Conference (NMW) and the Southern California Conference (SCIAC). There are also a couple of independent schools - most notably Chapman in Orange County.

My son ended up in the NWC. The conference is filled with smaller, generally academic liberal arts colleges.

The baseball is pretty darn good. Linfield, the conference champ, made it to the final day of the D3 world series this year and the runner up, Pacific Lutheran was a very fine team - one that I think would have gone a long way in the playoffs had they been included. Having watched multiple games this year and comparing them to the Northern California Juco teams I have seen over the last few years, I'd take the NWC teams in a 3 game series. Players are older and generally more fundamentally sound.

From an Engineering point of view, most of the NWC schools either do not have engineering or only offer engineering through a 3-2 program where you go to their school for 3 years and then finish the engineering degree at another school in 2 more years. One such NWC is the University of Puget Sound - their program is described here:

http://www.pugetsound.edu/acad...-degree-engineering/

Whitworth offers a similar 3-2 program. One school which dies have engineering is George Fox which has an engineering program with multiple majors.

Alternatively, at least two of the SCIAC schools offer Engineering - Cal Tech and Claremont. Cal Tech has historically been a terrible baseball program but Claremont is pretty good and has fine academics to go with the baseball.

As for the whole low D1 categorization, my opinion is that nearly all of the baseball being played in the west coast conferences is mid to high D1 and that most of the low level D1 teams are concentrated on the east coast and north. Seattle University is one exception as a new D1 team - but, on the other hand, they lost to D3 Pacific Lutheran in a match up last season. I also think that far too much is made of D1 vs D2 vs D3 - the levels overlap with the top teams in each division being capable of playing competitively at least one level higher if not two levels higher.

Hope this helps,

08

There's Oregon Tech, a respectable NAIA team down in Klamath Falls.

ev, did you get my PM?

Good point Krak... I completely skipped over the NAIA schools. Skipping OIT is really an omission on my part because my dad was a professor there for 20 years!!!

OIT is a Oregon state run college which offer degrees in really two major areas nursing and engineering. They are a D2 school in most other sports - and have a fine basketball and football program. Baseball has been up and down over the years.

Klamath Falls is a small town in the Oregon High desert - which means they have real seasons. Mom and Dad still live outside K Falls - and often get several feet of snow in the winter. Great town for outdoor activities - lots of lakes and forests to explore.

Boggest challenge for OIT is that every game requires a lengthy bus ride. They tend to play the same teams a lot and they also end up playing a lot of games on the road early in the season to escape the weather.

I think rating CalTech as having a terrible baseball team is doing them an injustice. They are nowhere near that good.

Cal Lutheran typically uses that game to do things like let position players who want to pitch and to play their entire lineup and still wins by scores of 17-0.

My experience from watching fairly strong SoCal JUCOs and watching fairly strong D3 programs is that the D3s are stronger but that many of the JUCOs could compete for a game or two. The NAIA schools vary a lot and some are better than JUCOs and some are not.

08Dad --

Thanks for all the info! My son is interested in mechanical engineering. He says he wants to do design. Does that make sense?

Linfield is a good program, and one of my son's hs teammates is going there this fall. But like seemingly every D3 within 800 miles - no engineering, or they have the 3/2 you spoke of.
There is a D3 in So Cal that my son has had contact with, with a good academic reputation, and he's been told it does 3/2 eng. But I don't see it listed as an option. I think its baseball program is on the upswing.

Did your son graduate in eng? Do you know if 3/2 programs have a good record of actually getting young men into the profession successfully after 5 years?

My son's goals are to continue school at an academically challenging college, and to play ball as long as possible. Professional aspirations are in engineering, not baseball. But his happiest moments in life have been on the field, and as a mom, I will help him as I can to keep playing and keep smiling. I know that some folks say baseball is like life, with it's ups and downs, and all the lessons you learn from the struggles, failure, and teamwork. My son has certainly experienced all that - as all of our boys have. But he also experienced having a sister suffer and die from cancer, so his "life's lessons" template is a bit skewed. I love to see that smile when he throws a runner out, holds onto the ball in a collision at the plate, or drives a run in. Whatever level of college baseball allows him to keep working at the game is fine by him, and fine by me.

Thanks everybody, for the great posts!

Another alternative is UC San Diego, a D2 program in La Jolla, CA which has a Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering (MAE) Program and very strong D2 baseball program.

ev, did you get my PM? Was it helpful? I hope it at least gives you some ideas.

Krak

Wow. All the Caltech stuff made me check their website - in the last 4 years they've won 5 games - all against former alumni and pick-up teams! They're on at least a 111 game losing streak (haven't seen how they've done before the 2007 season) in their real games. Why is their program so dismal? Sure, the academic requirements are extremely lofty, but so are MIT's and they've built a respectable ball-club. It's a shame; I was at one point really interested in Caltech for the academic opportunities but the baseball program just seems dreadful.

Krak - got the PM .Thank you! Been really busy and son hasn't had a chance to check it out yet. Much appreciated!

Strongly disagree on whether a D3 could beat a good California JC in a series. West Coast D3 would have little or no chance. My son's JC team had 3 pitchers drafted a few years ago, and is always filled with players who were drafted, went D1, D2 or NAIA (due to grades). Coach always said they could beat most state colleges. The difference is that the good California JC's are filled with players with D1 and major league aspirations. The D3's are not - as they are under the "mistaken" impression school is more important (cough).

brod,
Things have changed. There are players at the good D3s who are D1 dropdowns for various reasons and the D3s tend to have a bit more depth simply because they have players with more experience.

Just about a year ago,
I set out on the road,
Seeking my fame and fortune,
Looking for a pot of gold.
Things got bad, and things got worse,
I guess you will know the tune.
Oh ! Lord, Stuck in LowDI again.

Rode in on the Greyhound,
I'll be walking out if I go.
I was just passing through,
Must be seven months or more.
Ran out of time and money,
Looks like they took my friends.
Oh ! Lord, I'm stuck in LowDI again.

The man from the magazine said I was on my way.
Somewhere I lost connections, ran out of songs to play.
I came into town, a one night stand,
Looks like my plans fell through
Oh ! Lord, Stuck in LowDI again.
Mmmm...

If I only had a dollar, for ev'ry song I've sung.
And ev'ry time I've had to play
While people sat there drunk.
You know, I'd catch the next train back to where I live.
Oh ! Lord, I'm stuck in LowDI again.
Oh ! Lord, I'm stuck in LowDI again.

quote:

Originally posted by emeraldvlly:
Krak - got the PM .Thank you! Been really busy and son hasn't had a chance to check it out yet. Much appreciated!

Okay, great! Sometimes my PMs don't seem to make it through or can get filtered since I'm at an overseas IP. Let us know how it goes!

Brod:

Probably depends upon your experience and exposure to CA JCs as well as D3 baseball vs. mine. I was not intending to slight JC baseball - just pointing out that from what I have seen, D3 baseball can be darn good.

My son redshirted at a Northern CA JC and I saw a lot of their games two years ago. Their pitching was not as good as the D3 where he ended up at - and nowhere close to as good as either Linfield or Pacific Lutheran. Both of them have staffs that are deep and are headed with guys who will play in the pros - or already are now that the season is over.

Of course, one key difference is that the D3 players are often 21, 22 or 23 with two or three more years experience under their belt. The JUCO guys could be more talented but haven't had the extra time in the weight room, on the field or time to just get older. In two years, when those same juco guys are in the pros or at the four year school, perhaps they would be better than the D3 guys - but that is not the point.

Not in the West, but check out Denison College. Its a great D3, engineering heavy school with a great baseball team, even had a guy get drafted this year. Might be worth looking into.

Do you think it would be very hard to major in enineering in a top 5 rated conference?

Engineering is an academically strong major in itself and couple that with playing in a Big Conference would make it difficult. My sons roommate is a Petroleum Engineering major and they play in the Big 12 with him as a pitcher. He is a super bright young man but it is very difficult with their spring schedule. That's not to say it can't be done, this young man is handling it well, but you need to be very disciplined.

quote:

Originally posted by NRPMom:
Engineering is an academically strong major in itself and couple that with playing in a Big Conference would make it difficult. My sons roommate is a Petroleum Engineering major and they play in the Big 12 with him as a pitcher. He is a super bright young man but it is very difficult with their spring schedule. That's not to say it can't be done, this young man is handling it well, but you need to be very disciplined.

Good post.

There are different types of students out there as well. There are some kids who are so gifted, and so bright that any academic discipline would be doable given their abilities. Those are the rare exception however. I was at the opposite end of the spectrum when I went to Engineering school. It took all my powers to get through. Early on, I would spend hours and hours each day often working on one or two problems. I personally could not have handled anything else. One thing I noticed however, is that your brain is like a muscle. The more you use it and struggle to understand things, the better it becomes. I noticed that I became better and better at things like Calculus, Physics, and Thermodynamics the more I worked at them. I even saw myself pass students that were initially ahead of me (e.g., tortoise and the hare).

One recomendation for kids who want to play sports and major in Engineering is develop a 5 or 6 year plan for graduation. That is a more expensive plan but it provides a managable path for a young man to achieve both goals and be successful. You will also need a very proactive academic advisor who can pull some strings. It will be difficult for example to manage the labs required at the posted times. Someone will have to be willing to allow you to make that work up at odd hours. Labs however are kind of a group learning experience where students kind of collectively learn to solve problems. Doing them on your own is a disadvantage but can be overcome if good tutors and what not are offered in support. Another option might be to look at the military academies. There, everyone is in the same boat and the support/discipline structure may be better suited to facilitate education and baseball.

Agree with CD. We know of a very bright young man who has done very well as a pitcher in college ball at a top tier D1 but as a result is struggling a bit in engineering. It is also a top tier engineering school. We've heard that he may end up changing majors.

It is a challenge to play ball and do just about any major. Lots of travel, lots of practice - have to stay on top of things.

Southern Utah University.

Close to Zion Natl Park, Bryce Canyon Natl Park, Grand Canyon, Las Vegas (good or bad depending on your prefrences).

Member of Summit League Summit League

SUU's EngineeringEngineering

About Integrated Engineering Generic info

Although not in the west, I must mention Rose-Hulman in Terre Haute as a great engineering school with a strong (D3) baseball program that averages 45 games a year.

Re : Academic intensity
The more players pursuing high-end academics, the easier it is for all players to maximize academic performance.

My son is also interested in engineering and baseball. He was recruited by 5 DIII schools, all of which had a 3-2 program, and were affiliated with an excellent engineering school in our area. Because of baseball, he wanted to stay on campus for 4 years. The school he chose had 1 senior who had been participating in the 3-2 engineering program. Both schools worked out a way for him to attend the engineering school in the fall of his senior year, but to enroll and take classes at the DIII in the spring, so that he could still participate in baseball.

My son chose a different route: he is going to major in physics, minor in math, and then get his masters in engineering. With the help of the college coach, he was able to talk with an admissions counselor at the engineering school to see if this was an acceptable option.

There are ways to accomplish both. If you son is interested in a school because of academics and athletics, have him discuss his options with the coach.