Manny gone from Boston

quote:

What's amazing to me is two great players, and it seems to me the sports writers are in cahoots with the MLB is in the process of trying to destroy both of these players career legacy's.

One of my dear friends on this site has referred to baseball as being conservative (as opposed to liberal in the political sense, I guess) so perhaps this is just another of those right wing conspiracies.

quote:

Originally posted by LLorton:
Manny now realizes how Barry Bonds felt... Only true baseball knowledgeable fans understand the value of the 5 tool talent that Bonds and the Ramariz's represent to the a team.
JMO

LL, My impression of the ultimate 5 tool players are Aaron Mays and Clemente. When I hear of 5 tools, I immediately compare to their skills.
I fully agree with you that Bonds was a 5 tool player, both before and after the body reformation. Some are going to say he did not have a plus arm. While that was true, he had such a quick and accurate release and took such good angles to balls, that he more that made up for the strength part. He would have been exposed in right field by his arm but he was not a right fielder and should not be graded on a position he did not play.
Bonds measured on all his tools with Mays/Clemente/Aaron grades well in each tool.
Manny grades well in hitting and hitting for power. But you will never confuse his arm, defense, base running or speed with Aaron, Clemente and Mays. In fact, to suggest he has tools on par with those three when it comes to running/defense/arm is an insult to the tools of Aaron and Clemente and Mays.
With that said, the Red Sox did not get equal value, which is their choice. Their management decisions do not take away from Manny being one of the great hitters of all time. But it also does not make his other 3 tools anything other than average, at best.
Personally, I don't think comparing Manny to Bonds is fair either...to Bonds.

I found all of this trade stuff to be really interesting this year.
Listening to Marlins' GM speak on TV last night, he noted that in a year with so many teams in contentions, he himself was surprised that there were not more trades (his team did). His philosophy was that they had invested so much time and money into their young players (and very good ones too) that taking a player (obviously short term) didn't go with their plans.
I think that we have definetly seen a big change in baseball with the fact that there are not too many players out there to trade who might make a difference in the fall outcome while many young players for many teams will make a difference in outcomes in a short year or two.
I am not sure if Manny leaving will or will not affect the Sox's outcome. Chemistry is very important, I understand that Manny brought lots of good stuff to his club, he was very much liked and that included his manager. I am pretty sure that letting Manny go was not an option until he made it one.
It will be interesting to see how this all works out, wouldn't that be something if the Dodgers went all the way. Former yankee manager and former Sox raker.

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:

quote:

Originally posted by LLorton:
Manny now realizes how Barry Bonds felt... Only true baseball knowledgeable fans understand the value of the 5 tool talent that Bonds and the Ramariz's represent to the a team.
JMO

LL, My impression of the ultimate 5 tool players are Aaron Mays and Clemente. When I hear of 5 tools, I immediately compare to their skills.
I fully agree with you that Bonds was a 5 tool player, both before and after the body reformation. Some are going to say he did not have a plus arm. While that was true, he had such a quick and accurate release and took such good angles to balls, that he more that made up for the strength part. He would have been exposed in right field by his arm but he was not a right fielder and should not be graded on a position he did not play.
Bonds measured on all his tools with Mays/Clemente/Aaron grades well in each tool.
Manny grades well in hitting and hitting for power. But you will never confuse his arm, defense, base running or speed with Aaron, Clemente and Mays. In fact, to suggest he has tools on par with those three when it comes to running/defense/arm is an insult to the tools of Aaron and Clemente and Mays.
With that said, the Red Sox did not get equal value, which is their choice. Their management decisions do not take away from Manny being one of the great hitters of all time. But it also does not make his other 3 tools anything other than average, at best.
Personally, I don't think comparing Manny to Bonds is fair either...to Bonds.

Excellent post. Manny did have a strong arm when he broke into the majors as a 20 year old. The eight years he played in Cleveland he was a right fielder. I would say for at least a portion of his career he was a three tool player but that is not really the point with Manny as his two tools are what he was paid for. I think there is a 6th tool that is overlooked and that is the ability to perform under pressure. Lets look at some of these and see where they rank in post season play. I will only compare batting averages among them.

Hank Aaron - 3 post season series .362 average
Mickey Mantle - 12 WS appearances .257 average
Roberto Clemente - 5 post season series .318 average
Willie Mays - 6 post season season .247 average

Some recent players
Manny Ramirez - 19 post season series - .269 average
Paul O'Neil - 19 post season series - .284 average
Barry Bonds - 9 post season series - .245 average
Alex Rodriguez - 10 post season series - .279 average

Perhaps I have overrated Manny. Still seems like he was a big part of breaking an 80 some year old drought. If they think he is on the downside of his career then they ought to move him. I think he will be very productive (offensively) into his 40's. We'll see if the Red Sox were right.

I read a lot of dreaming on here. Manny at his best is what the red sox wanted. When he was his best, he was accepted by fans, players and management for "Manny being Manny". But when a player becomes a dog, he is no better than any other player, so it was definitely time for him to move on. He was becoming a cancer in the clubhouse and thats a sure way to loose.
He was not and never will be a 5 tool player. He will be good, but only as good as his lineup in L.A. Why will national league pitchers pitch to him, when they can pitch around him? He is getting older, and nobody thought more of himself than Manny did.
Bay has never hit in a lineup like Bostons and in that type of hitters park, he will do well, but nobody expects him to hit like Manny. He will field better, run the bases better, hit well and treat others in the clubhouse with respect. I can't believe how everyone has the Dodgers going to the playoffs because of Manny. He may be the next Andruw, who knows. If he doesn't like something about L.A., watch out.
The Yankees will not be dumb enough to give another aging former star too much money, when they're stuck with a declining Damon, a questionable Abreu and nobody to play center. Nady was a good pickup.
As for them sox, they needed a change in the positive direction and they still have Ortiz, Drew, Lowell, Youk, Pedroia and now Bay. They will compete to the end, and in the short series formats, pitching will make the difference. Thats my take.

quote:

Originally posted by Coachric:

The Yankees will not be dumb enough to give another aging former star too much money...

Ummm, Pudge??

True Papi, but Pudge is a rental and then the aging Posada comes back.

As Pudge & Posada are the same age, it was also a way to not infect the team with any of that 'youth' virus.

Just for fun: the Fielding Bible has Manny as twice as bad as the next worst LFer....

Fielding Bible

It will be interesting to see what Manny does in LA!

FWIW, I just read that ESPN on Mike and Mike this morning were reporting that GM Epstein went to a selected number of veteran players on the Red Sox and was asked what should be done about Manny and they told Theo to get rid of him.

Thats what boston relatives are saying, its on the news there and in the papers. Theo will probably say less about it than we expect and he will move on and introduce Bay.
In the past year on this site and many other reports have always spoken so highly about Bay and what a young superstar he is. Last year was down by his young standards, but because he's been in Pitt, the publicity isn't there.

LL posts: "For those of you who think Jason Bay is going to be better for the Sox put this stat in your calculation..."

No one has suggested Bay is better for the Sox than Manny. Just like no one suggested Manny was a 5 tool player. Oops! You did.


Bay is a temporary patch to an intolerable situation.

Manny is a pawn for Boras' antics of getting out of a contract at the first opportunity. He/they did not like they idea of the club holding the options. He has made it clear he can be unpredictable and a flake. So, management felt that, with declining skills and an unpredictable personality, that moving forward was not a good business decision.

Apparently, word is coming out that his teammates were feeling the same way. Pinch hitting in NY before the all-star break in a game with the Sox coming from behind, the barrel didn't leave his shoulder as he looked at 3 strikes was the shot across the bow.

What tool does the heart come under? I can imagine how Lowell (the consummate pro), Pedroia (ultimate dirt dog and overachiever), Youkilis, etc have tired of Manny's apathy. Especially when in a dog fight with NY.

Knowing how the pawn's personality is, how can you be sure he was not going to have a mysterious injury for the balance of the season. After all, he claimed to have a sore knee a week ago and sat out a game. Management called his bluff and sent him in for an MRI, and he made a miraculous recovery. Next week it would have been something else.

He has been great. He is still good....when the head doesn't get in the way. But, four more years. No way!

The real problem is Boras. Manny is a pawn. Good luck to him.

You guys don't get it...

If I had a team and Bonds and Ramirez were available I'd take both of them right know over Jason Bay and Curt Schilling any day.

If Bonds wants a big recliner chair in the club house and Ramirez wants something likewise to play and be happy they would get it from me...as long as all the other players were treated the same way. That means I would make accomodations for my players to keep them happy.

If you don't understand that concept go to the 49er dynasties under Di Bartolo where he flew his teams in private first class accomodation lavished them with large bonuses and gave them extra incentives to do well. After 5 Super Bowls I got the point. So did the NFL and they went about instituting the cap and all the other garbage that has made the NFL one level just above college ball...but nothing to get excited about anymore.

What the owners and GMS don't understand it's not about them...it's about winning! otherwise all the money and hype is meaningless. It's about the players and the fans and keeping both of them revved up to support the program. That's how the Yankees used to do it, but now the Yankee organization is more bottomline oriented to the dismantling of the cohesion and pride of what once they used to have. Even the local NY sports writers sense the difference and it is now ugly to watch the Yankee train wreck every year.

Yeah I'd take the non-5 tool players like Bonds and Ramirez over players like Jason Bay anyday of the week.

JMO

Hurray for Jason Bay and the Boston fans, coaches and players on the roster that want their team to succeed... We've all worked with some Jack-A$$ that really wants to see Failure... that's Manny. He loafed in playoff games (yes Jim Mora, I'm talking about the playoffs)...

I gaurantee you Terry Francona just feels like a load of BS got lifted off his back.

quote:

Originally posted by trojan-skipper:

I gaurantee you Terry Francona just feels like a load of BS got lifted off his back.

Don't bet your life on that one. Trust me on that one.

LL,
How do you know what each management provides or doesn't provide for their players?

Don't compare the DiBartolo football family to baseball. His teams were successful because he had big, I am talking HUGE megabucks to buy the talent when others didn't. And he treated all his employees like that, my husband made much more working for him than if he had done the same job with other companies.

quote:

You guys don't get it...

No, you don't get it. The Sox are diplaying fiscal responsibility. Funny. We criticize owners for throwing money at players and creating escalating salaries. Then, when one draws the line in the sand and refused to be held hostage...the bleeding hearts can't believe it. Their system has won.

It's the same model that Belichick uses for the Pats. You have a value, and if you want more, good luck. The Sox' new ownership has done it, and managed to win 2 world series. They turned important parts of the roster (Pedro, Damon, Mueller, Lowe, Millar, Nixon, Cabrera, Foulke, etc) over between 2004 and 2007 and still won. Following the same plan, they will do it again. Bay is a short term patch...not a long term answer. He is priced right to move after they pick up a free agent in the off season.

Under your plan, they get stuck with dead salary when Manny's a further liability defensively in 2-3 years and only has value at DH. (Just like many of the guys the Yankees have had over the past five years. The primary difference is that the Yankees are so strong financially they can overcome the mistakes) Then, how do you split time between Manny and Ortiz?

You are right about one thing: It's about winning. In case you haven't noticed...they DID win in 2004 and 2007. Get it?

quote:

If you don't understand that concept go to the 49er dynasties under Di Bartolo where he flew his teams in private first class accomodation lavished them with large bonuses and gave them extra incentives to do well. After 5 Super Bowls I got the point. So did the NFL and they went about instituting the cap and all the other garbage that has made the NFL one level just above college ball...but nothing to get excited about anymore.

LL, are you arguing that, for one minute, Ronnie Lott would have tolerated Manny being Manny on the field, during competition? Are you suggesting Bill Walsh would have tolerated Manny dogging it on the field and taking himself out of the lineup?
Can you name one 49er during the time Walsh was the coach and GM and Lott played who ever acted on the field the way Manny acts on the field?
Bill Walsh got rid of guys (Lott and many others) who were giving 200% on the field before he thought their skills would start to decline.
To argue that either would have tolerated Manny for one game is totally implausible, in my view.

quote:

Who the he*ll is Schilling

Umm! You may want to check his post season stats. Historically huge on the big stage.

Ultimately, the true litmus test is that his manger and teammates had enough of him.

wayback the Sox are so fiscally responsible that they are paying Ramirez his full salary for the rest of his contract as he plays for the Dodgers. Being fiscally responsible is more about treating your players with respect especially those that have contributed so much to your organization, and resigning them based on the remaining worth and value to their potential contribution. It serves no purpose in teeing a guy off where he doesn't want to play for you anymore, which gives him control over your fiscal flexibility as has happened with Ramirez. No wonder they had to go for a loser like Jason Bay.

infielddad I see players doggin it down to first base all the time in the majors even on the Sox. But the difference is you don't have a snake-in-the-grass like Schilling creating factions of discontent as the sits on his behind and collects a paycheck that he isn't earning.
JMO

quote:

Being fiscally responsible is more about treating your players with respect especially those that have contributed so much to your organization, and resigning them based on the remaining worth and value to their potential contribution.

This is where either Manny will be revealed to be the uneducated pawn that he is, and sign for less than the $20 mil he had coming (maybe he can justify lower $/yr based on a 4 year contract), or some GM will overspend and be stuck with dead money in years 3-4 (unless they have a spot at DH...which the Sox clearly don't).

Let's face it, Boras is pulling his strings. Boras doesn't care about any team, or any goal of signing a player on his remaining worth to the team. His goal is to get as much money as possible, justified or not. There is no keeping him for this year, and then resigning him. It is a club option, meaning the Sox have the power.

Boras does not like the position of not having a say in negotiating. The only way to get to a bigger pay day was to sabotage the relationship and get run out of town. I can't believe you don't get this. If he does not get a long term deal now...at the end of the Sox' two option years his skills may have declined too much to reap a big contract. So, he needs to lock in now. It's his only way. The Sox didn't want to lock in at the value today...because they believe his future value is less. Yes, fiscally responsible.

You have been nothing but shortsighted in this. It isn't about past production. He produced and got paid for that. It isn't about this year. It's about a four year plan and an intolerable personality.

As for this year, clearly Jason Bay isn't Manny. But, you assume Manny is on the field. The Sox brass don't trust a Boras puppet who may "pull a hammy, or get a sore knee" just so they don't pick up the option. He may even disappear into the wall during a pitching change to go to the bathroom and forget to come out. Funny stuff. Unless you want to win...and you're paying him $20 mil.

quote:

snake-in-the-grass like Schilling

Yeah! Not like Schill would ever play hurt or anything.

And speaking of Manny's value....twice in his tenure in Boston the Sox put him on waivers. He was there for the taking...with nothing to give in return. Just pick up his salary and he's yours.

Yet, not one single team stepped to the plate. That speaks volumes.

quote:

Just pick up his salary and he's yours.

Yet, not one single team stepped to the plate. That speaks volumes.

Before we all think the Red Sox management need to be knighted for this trade and that Manny is such a villain, let's also recognize they got every bit of worth out of Manny they could.
As CD pointed out, they have basked in the accolades and revenues from their 2 WS wins. I would bet their revenues post Manny acquisition are substantially more than pre Manny. The Red Sox ownership has done fine financially with Manny as one of their assets and has now made the choice to put him in the rear view mirror.
The fact that no other team picked Manny off waivers also says nothing other than no other team wanted to "just pick up his salary" of $20,000,000 per year for the rest of the years, plus his option for each additional year. The fact that no other team wanted to "just pick up his salary" sure does not say what kind player he is other than he is good enough to have one of the heftiest contracts in baseball.
From what I read this morning, even the Dodgers aren't "just picking up that salary" as most is going to be paid by the Sox.

What it says is that Manny's value of himself (and/or Boras' value of Manny) has exceeded the market for Manny.

Let's face it, the $20 mil value may have been a market of one. But, the Red Sox made that deal after having lost the Mike Mussina sweepstakes a month earlier.

Manny has been a historical producer. But, moving forward, that same level of performance shouldn't be expected.

I think the Sox will miss his bat. But, Manny made it clear of his desires. It came down to a business decision. To continue, as an employer, to pay him top dollar, it would be expected to have top performance in return. Long term, his skills will diminish and he should be a DH. They already have one of the best clutch hitters in the game. Short term, the decision had to be gauged on character and his ability/desire/liklihood to finish the year. Knowing the unpredictability of Manny, the Sox felt they had to make the move they did.

wayback said: Yeah! Not like Schill would ever play hurt or anything.
________________________________________________________________________________

Schilling is a fraud, I don't know of many pitchers who haven't suffered a bleeding contusion from hitting the crown of their instep or their ankle on the rubber everytime they push off and rotate, Pedro Martinez had to take rtime off because it got so bad.

What a cry baby. My son has been pitching with that painful contusion and bleeding for a long time...nothing you can do about it. It's part of the job...don't like it, play the outfield. That's what I told him.

If you're a pitcher with this condition insert a soft sponge that covers the top of your instep and wrap your foot. Then put on a sock.

Can you remember how Curt made such a big deal about it. Big phoney!!

JMO

Manny was left no choice but to stand up for himself in whatever way he thought he could "win". No one gave a rats-pah-toot about what he wanted...and Boras is paid to represent his client's best interest, not the interest of the Red Sox.

Francone is a figure head, he makes out the lineup. Its obvious he has no power to do a thing about who ultimately gets to play.

The Red Sox made a business decision, and Boras gave his client the best possible option. Going to a team that is vying for a league championship.

I hope its the Dodgers and the Red Sox for the WS and it comes down to 7th game with Jason Bay up to bat with men on base after Ramirez hits a HR to put the Dodgers up one run in the top of the ninth inning... What poetic justice and irony extraordinaire. Hollywood couldn't write a better script. I'll leave it to your imagination as to the outcome.

JMO

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:
There comes a time that the baggage a player brings with him out weighs the good he brings on the field. In Manny's case in the batters box. You can bet that the players in that club house had some say in this move including the Manager. They have their two WS rings. The pressure is off. In the long run they will be better off without his distractions imo. I know many will disagree with me on this that is fine. But they are better off with Bay and the loss of the distraction that Manny was.

According to the Boston papers even Manny's clubhouse friends turned on him and suggested to management he be traded. The rest of the team wanted him gone long ago.

quote:

Originally posted by LLorton:
TPM

Out of respect for the coach I deleted the question.

Bonds and Ramariz are 5 tool players. They can hit for power, hit for average, can steal a base, field their position, and have strong accurate throwing arms.

but that's JMO

Manny couldn't catch a cold. He never could. Accurate throwing arm! Give me a bleep,n break. Why do you think he played left? He was awful in right in Cleveland. Manny could hit and hit for power, period. He's one of the great clutch hitters in baseball.

quote:

Originally posted by LLorton:
TPM

Out of respect for the coach I deleted the question.

Bonds and Ramariz are 5 tool players. They can hit for power, hit for average, can steal a base, field their position, and have strong accurate throwing arms.

but that's JMO

Manny couldn't catch a cold. His arm is weak. He's scary on the base paths. The man is a hitter. He's one of the best clutch hitters ever. That's all.

quote:

Originally posted by LLorton:
Both players OBP around .450, Slug% around .600 amd fielding at 98%. That's All-star caliber quality. Hitting over .300 and last time I checked stolen base % is a function of situation and called by the coaches. The NL plays a different game with no DH that impacts Ramirez's numbers.

What's amazing to me is two great players, and it seems to me the sports writers are in cahoots with the MLB is in the process of trying to destroy both of these players career legacy's.

For those of you who think Jason Bay is going to be better for the Sox put this stat in your calculation...As ESPN reports Jason Bay though stats very comparable to Ramirez for 2008 season but not close with runners in scoring position BA .219. Ramirez BA with runners in scoring position .309 I think the Dodgers will gain ground and the Sox won't make the playoffs this season.

Heard comments by Curt Schilling about Ramirez and he went into everything about the man except what's important in baseball...can he play, and is he a winner. Curt Schilling just show'd me something that tell's me why the Sox are not a good organization. Who the he*ll is Schilling to be judging anyone, the big phony!!!

Welcome to the Dodgers, Manny
JMO

Manny was threatening to sit out the remainder of the season. He did it once before. What numbers would he have put up not playing?

The guy quit on his teammates once before. He was doing it again. Even his friends on the team wanted him gone.

quote:

Originally posted by LLorton:
No wonder they had to go for a loser like Jason Bay.

Wow! With the five tool argument I thought you were just ignorant about baseball. This comment proves you're stupid. Bay has made the all-star team twice in the last four years. He's averaging .280, 30, 100 over the same time. No, he's not Manny. But in the Sox lineup he could put up some big numbers.

Someone mentioned Bay is a short term fix. It's possible. He could also be a long time fixture in left. The guy can play.

LL, you sound like an intelligent guy discussing a subject in which he is ill-informed.

You are ill-informed about the 5 tool stuff.

Most of your argument based on statistical data is either flat out wrong (fielding ability, stolen bases, etc), or outdated (using Manny's career numbers even though his recent numbers are no where near that average).

Your comments regarding Schilling or Francona don't even deserve a response.

And,now, the Boras-Manny dynamics. Manny had to do what he had to do to win, and Boras..no one gave a rat's rear what Manny wanted....blah blah blah.

An important fact for you here, LL, Manny signed a contract, but didn't want to honor it. What was it that he wanted? He wanted to throw a tantrum until the team no longer could tolerate him. Not just management, but the players.

And, the Dodgers have the 8th best record in a weak league. Any team coming out of the AL will smoke them. I could at least accept you saying the Angels of Anaheim Somewhere in the Smog Near Los Angeles (or whatever their name is now).

You seem to be anti-Sox, but haven't said anything credible. So, have at it. You seem to enjoy changing the subject just to continue arguing.

Just watched Bay come to the plate.

LL, you were right. You said "What the owners and GMS don't understand it's not about them...it's about winning! otherwise all the money and hype is meaningless. It's about the players and the fans and keeping both of them revved up to support the program".

He got a standing ovation from a revved up crowd.

He walked and went 1st to 3rd on a Drew hit. Scored on a sac-fly. Nice intro to Fenway. And a congratulations from a revved up team.

BTW: isn't California a place where medical marijuana is allowed. I'm guessing Manny comes up with a case of glaucoma.

I think Sox-Nation is going to love Jason Bay.
The guy has hit in a lineup with no protection. Now he will have JD Drew, Lowell, and or Ortiz to help him and Ellsbury and Coco to set the table... his numbers could very well go up. Manny will not have those studs to help him...

Manny got himself traded but he also cut his prospects for next year way down because a lot of GMs don't want to put up with this baloney. Can you blame them? Also, nobody wants to give that last contract that can be a bust. I think ManRam just jobbed himself out of a lot of dough that would have come his way if he would have played hard this year. ... but that would have been kissing up to the man I guess.

Jerry Remy talking about Manny now: He liked Manny. Enjoyed watching him hit. But, he lost it for Manny when he sat out games when team needed him...and blamed ownership for being against him (when the truth is they bent over backwards for him).

Also talking about discussions with teammates who collectively wanted him gone. The team couldn't keep him because not sure if he would finish season or simply go home stranding the team. Calling Francona the happiest man in the world. Time will tell if team will be better...but the change had to be made.

How will Torre-Ramirez relationship play out?

quote:

Originally posted by trojan-skipper:
I think Sox-Nation is going to love Jason Bay.
The guy has hit in a lineup with no protection. Now he will have JD Drew, Lowell, and or Ortiz to help him and Ellsbury and Coco to set the table... his numbers could very well go up. Manny will not have those studs to help him...

Manny got himself traded but he also cut his prospects for next year way down because a lot of GMs don't want to put up with this baloney. Can you blame them? Also, nobody wants to give that last contract that can be a bust. I think ManRam just jobbed himself out of a lot of dough that would have come his way if he would have played hard this year. ... but that would have been kissing up to the man I guess.

Sad thing is...Manny probably doesn't even care about the money or playing baseball.

Varitek interview: Manny irreplaceable. But, time to go... Manny's actions left no choice.

LLorton, I'm beginning to thing Jason Bay stole your High School Sweetheart or something. (I'm sure he would be crushed to know that YOU considered him a loser.) That term is just a little harsh. Sure, he's not going to be the clutch hitter that manny is/was but give the guy a chance. I'm looking forward to seeing "Jason just being Jason"!

Jason Bay 0 fer 2 with a BB and 2 K's with a RUN Scored, BA .000 inauspicious start to say the least.

Not like Willie McCovey who hit the first pitch he saw as a SF Giant into the right field seats.

Maybe Manny's antics are looking more like how he kept himself loose so he could hit under pressure and not choke like Jason Bay is doing tonight.

JMO

A RUN scored-he's already doing something manny didn't do in his final sox days...run!