Marking Launch angles in batting cages?

Btw 90 is the average mlb exit velocity. It can be achieved by good hs hitters but doing it consistently is not easy against pitching.

The average exit velocity is usually around 15 to 20 mph below the top exit velocity. For example altuve had a average exit velocity of 88.9 but a top Velo of 109. 

And mlb average velocity is actually even a little lower because the tracking system has trouble picking up very slow or chopped balls.

A HS player who tops out at 95 will probably average like in the upper 70s or so. 

2020dad posted:

...  So those PG kids are certainly capable of 100+ exit velocity in game situations. So when you look at it that way we are now asking if a high school player should be able to produce 90% of that. I don't think there is a shadow of a doubt they should. ...Do you take exit velocities?  

...  Pretty much any decent player 'can' get to 90 but how often?

No I don't take exits for my HS kids and I was sincere in asking for someone to provide real measured range is for average HS players in-game.  I don't believe they will be anywhere near 90% of the max of the best PG kids' best swings.  Could be wrong.  My guess is way closer to 80 or lower.  Which would bring us back to mostly routine fly balls.  Which is what I have seen for 25 years with balls hit at the launch angles we're talking about.

I totally don't buy that any decent HS player can get to 90 in-game with any regularity.  Just like the discussion on velo of Nature v Nurture...  should most P's be able to reach 90 with proper training, diet, workout, mechanics, etc.  Just not realistic.

cabbagedad posted:

2020dad posted:

...  So those PG kids are certainly capable of 100+ exit velocity in game situations. So when you look at it that way we are now asking if a high school player should be able to produce 90% of that. I don't think there is a shadow of a doubt they should. ...Do you take exit velocities?  

...  Pretty much any decent player 'can' get to 90 but how often?

No I don't take exits for my HS kids and I was sincere in asking for someone to provide real measured range is for average HS players in-game.  I don't believe they will be anywhere near 90% of the max of the best PG kids' best swings.  Could be wrong.  My guess is way closer to 80 or lower.  Which would bring us back to mostly routine fly balls.  Which is what I have seen for 25 years with balls hit at the launch angles we're talking about.

I totally don't buy that any decent HS player can get to 90 in-game with any regularity.  Just like the discussion on velo of Nature v Nurture...  should most P's be able to reach 90 with proper training, diet, workout, mechanics, etc.  Just not realistic.

 

Now we are changing the parameters!  I totally agree they can't get to 90 with regularity. So we are 100% in tune there. Now is where we may differ...  I would effort to get them more consistent rather than give up and go for ground balls. I did exit velocities at the horrible program I coached at. Even there the starters were pretty much all 'capable' of an in game 90. Now how often?  Not very!  A lot of strike outs to begin with and weak ground balls everywhere. 

Dominic, where did you find data on MLB off the tee exit velocities?

2020 I don't think anyone is here claiming you should work to hit ground balls. I just think if you look at the results of thousands AB's at the HS level and also glance at the power stats that are available....power hitters are rare and it isn't because they don't understand your concept. It is because very few have the talent you seem to think is standard. 

My sons HS team is pretty solid, they have 7 or 8 kids that will be playing college ball and there are 2 that have the ability to repeatedly drive the ball in the way you seem to think all varsity players should...now in fairness just about every #1 starter in the league is a D1 local or D2 pitcher next year and to the best of my knowledge most all the other pitchers will be throwing D3 so it is a highly competitive area. You don't get a Loy of meatballs to hit. 

Last weeks fangraphs was writing tons of articles about the launch angle thing

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs...ting-off-the-ground/

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs...-get-off-the-ground/

I think the goal remains to hit a line drive. We just know now that the perfect line drive angle is not zero degrees (into the l screen) but around  15 degrees.

If you can shape your best shot to be around 15 degrees. That ball usually will have an apex height of like 25 feet or so on a field if it is hit like 85 mph so it is definitely not a real fly ball even for a small hitter.

If the best shot is shaped toward 15 degrees the home run is still a slight mistake under the ball but you don't need to get under the ball as much. I don't really think you should train to hit 30 degree shots all the time either. 

Dominik85 posted:

Last weeks fangraphs was writing tons of articles about the launch angle thing

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs...ting-off-the-ground/

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs...-get-off-the-ground/

I think the goal remains to hit a line drive. We just know now that the perfect line drive angle is not zero degrees (into the l screen) but around  15 degrees.

If you can shape your best shot to be around 15 degrees. That ball usually will have an apex height of like 25 feet or so on a field if it is hit like 85 mph so it is definitely not a real fly ball even for a small hitter.

If the best shot is shaped toward 15 degrees the home run is still a slight mistake under the ball but you don't need to get under the ball as much. I don't really think you should train to hit 30 degree shots all the time either. 

Here are the calcs of where the ball will hit the top of an eight foot batting cage, given a decent EV (>80mph).

Dom, been following this stuff as well.  Diamond Kinetics is another one mentioned frequently, which you may have mentioned in a previous post.  It's all interesting but with 2018 preparing for opening season I have to keep the talking about this stuff quiet.  On their twitter feed they reference a lot of things, but on their web site it's more sales site for their Swingtracker, similar Zepp but with improvements.

https://twitter.com/DiamondKinetics

Gov posted:

Dom, been following this stuff as well.  Diamond Kinetics is another one mentioned frequently, which you may have mentioned in a previous post.  It's all interesting but with 2018 preparing for opening season I have to keep the talking about this stuff quiet.  On their twitter feed they reference a lot of things, but on their web site it's more sales site for their Swingtracker, similar Zepp but with improvements.

https://twitter.com/DiamondKinetics

 

the chart I posted was from Diamond Kinetics...an old twitter post I think.

Go44dad posted:

Dominik85 posted:

Last weeks fangraphs was writing tons of articles about the launch angle thing

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs...ting-off-the-ground/

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs...-get-off-the-ground/

I think the goal remains to hit a line drive. We just know now that the perfect line drive angle is not zero degrees (into the l screen) but around  15 degrees.

If you can shape your best shot to be around 15 degrees. That ball usually will have an apex height of like 25 feet or so on a field if it is hit like 85 mph so it is definitely not a real fly ball even for a small hitter.

If the best shot is shaped toward 15 degrees the home run is still a slight mistake under the ball but you don't need to get under the ball as much. I don't really think you should train to hit 30 degree shots all the time either. 

Here are the calcs of where the ball will hit the top of an eight foot batting cage, given a decent EV (>80mph).

 

 

One thing they did wrong is the 8 feet represents from point of contact.  So lets say you hit the ball 30" off the ground then the ball would strike a 10 1/2 foot high cage at 45 ft.  And honestly that is probably a more realistic cage height anyway.  But the point is even a low line drive to the outfield (thats what 10 degrees is) hits the top of the cage well before getting to the back of the cage - unless you are of course in a very short cage meant only for soft toss.  

Btw I think it makes sense to increase Launch angle with age. I think it is relatively easy to go from a level swing to a slight uppercut but from a chop down it becomes harder.

For preteen players I would actually teach level hits into the L screen because uppercutting for them can lead to flaws like dropping the hands, so basically aim for 0 to +5 degrees.

For 11 to 14 year old kids I would add a little bit of lean back and uppercut to match the pitch and hit rising liners over the infield at 10 to 15 degrees.

Many hs players can stay there but for some it might make sense to add a little more and go for 20 to 25 degrees to maximize power.

You revived your thread!  My son hit one last game had to be 95-100 EV (he is 90 off tee so yes realistic guess).  Right at the left fielder.  Never even had to move.  Now if that would have been a 27 degree launch angle...  he's trotting. 

A couple of observations. 

Not sure I would "teach" launch angle.  Just teach an understanding of what the ball looks like in the tunnel and outside.  In other words, hitting the top is not necessarily "bad." 

HS outfielders are just as bad as infielders.  I have seen as many errors, and bad routes, in the outfield, as errors and bad hops in the infield.  So if you think hitting it on the ground gives you some type of advantage over fly balls in HS, it doesn't. 

Ground balls suck.  We are one of those ground ball, dink and dunk teams.  If you have great pitching and can keep games close, and can scratch a few runs across, it can work.  But against any good team, you're toast.  When you're down by 3, you need to be able to put runs on the board.  You need extra base hits to get runners into scoring position and get them home. 

And golf our first double header taught me you need to strike people out.  You are right if the ball goes in playbit is an adventure.  But when summer comes in travel ball those are outs.  So getting under the ball is crucial for a powerful kid.  Instead of hitting where they ain't - hit it where they can't go!

2020dad posted:

And golf our first double header taught me you need to strike people out.  You are right if the ball goes in playbit is an adventure.  But when summer comes in travel ball those are outs.  So getting under the ball is crucial for a powerful kid.  Instead of hitting where they ain't - hit it where they can't go!

You guys just started, so it will get better in a few weeks.  And one thing to note about summer ball, the outfielders are amazing.  We where a team that hits the ball in the air.  We made a lot of outs.  Anything too high, the outfield will get under it.  My kid pounded on probably 360 feet in left center.  SOB centerfielder tracked it down with an amazing over the shoulder catch. 

2020dad posted:

You revived your thread!  My son hit one last game had to be 95-100 EV (he is 90 off tee so yes realistic guess).  Right at the left fielder.  Never even had to move.  Now if that would have been a 27 degree launch angle...  he's trotting. 

my son hit 2 last week in a game where he was trotting and one right at the right fielder which may have been the hardest hit of the 3...they were all good. yesterday he was walked twice and had 6-3 and 4-3....they were not good!!!

enjoy the goods whenever they come regardless of the result!

edit - forgot about the F5 in foul territory...ugh lets talk about last week!!

Curious if anybody else is seeing all these self proclaimed hitting "gurus"  tweeting:   "hit it in the air, it's the only way"?  This should be a gradual thing as kids first learn to hit it hard, then gradually adjusting the launch angles as they get stronger.  Two players on son's team with mediocre velocity are aiming for the fences all the time: results are easy pop fly's to the OF.  Sure, some are going to drop, but the results aren't helping the team, and the kids self esteem's aren't the greatest (which is a learning lesson of baseball in itself).  Lots of good things happen when you're hitting the ball hard, and the kids develop a good approach, along with learning to time up advanced pitching. 

The goal should always be hard hit line drives.  Getting the ball in the air can be a stepping stone for a kid who swings down to contact or is fixing a swing path, but it is not the final destination.

Gov posted:

Curious if anybody else is seeing all these self proclaimed hitting "gurus"  tweeting:   "hit it in the air, it's the only way"?  This should be a gradual thing as kids first learn to hit it hard, then gradually adjusting the launch angles as they get stronger.  Two players on son's team with mediocre velocity are aiming for the fences all the time: results are easy pop fly's to the OF.  Sure, some are going to drop, but the results aren't helping the team, and the kids self esteem's aren't the greatest (which is a learning lesson of baseball in itself).  Lots of good things happen when you're hitting the ball hard, and the kids develop a good approach, along with learning to time up advanced pitching. 

 

Gov,

some where back in this thread posted that I believe people fall in love with MLB stats, percentages and numbers. The truth is IMO the games are different, 90 MPH one hoppers in HS baseball find holes A WHOLE LOT of times where in the MLB they may well get eaten up...HS baseball a few kids who should be looking to launch it high and deep but it is the exception not the rule., again IMO

it is pretty apparent not everyone agrees...that being said I think there are times and places where SAC bunts in HS are good - LOL I know  I know how stupid am I!!!!

Gov posted:

Curious if anybody else is seeing all these self proclaimed hitting "gurus"  tweeting:   "hit it in the air, it's the only way"?  This should be a gradual thing as kids first learn to hit it hard, then gradually adjusting the launch angles as they get stronger.  Two players on son's team with mediocre velocity are aiming for the fences all the time: results are easy pop fly's to the OF.  Sure, some are going to drop, but the results aren't helping the team, and the kids self esteem's aren't the greatest (which is a learning lesson of baseball in itself).  Lots of good things happen when you're hitting the ball hard, and the kids develop a good approach, along with learning to time up advanced pitching. 

 

Yes hit it hard first.  But it's not so much as hit it in the air as opposed to hit it on the ground.  IMO, the goal in HS is the line drive.  It's a 70% success rate.  Starts as a sure single and if hit hard enough in the gaps, it's extra base time. The problem arises with these stupid tunnels.  Hitting the back of the tunnel is a ground ball. Hitting the top corners are gap shots.  #linedrivesrule. 

Hitting ground balls at any age is plain stupid. I don't care if the fielder makes an error.  You are looking to get better not win that specific high school game. The 'gurus' are just stating what should be obvious to all. Wanting kids to hit the back of the cage is stupid. Period. 

2020dad posted:

Hitting ground balls at any age is plain stupid. I don't care if the fielder makes an error.  You are looking to get better not win that specific high school game. The 'gurus' are just stating what should be obvious to all. Wanting kids to hit the back of the cage is stupid. Period. 

1.  What percentage of balls hit on a line to the back of the cage would be hits in a live game?  

2.  What percentage balls hit to the top net at the 30 degree line would be hits in a game?  

Real Green, 

This image give "scoring value" instead of batting average, but I'm making the assumption that they are similar or correlated. It may help answer both of your questions.

Between 10 and 30 degrees has been mentioned before as the optimal range, I also assume it came from this graph (or the same data that created this graph). It's interesting to see the band of very high success rate between 10 and 25 degrees.

Also it's interesting to see high scoring value at 25+ launch angles with low exit velocity, then low scoring value between 70 and about 95 MPH, then high success again as you hit the home run cluster. The low exit velocities at that angle must be line drive base hits, then low success rate as they start reaching outfielders on the fly for outs, then more success as they start going over outfielders (or the fence).

real green posted:

2020dad posted:

Hitting ground balls at any age is plain stupid. I don't care if the fielder makes an error.  You are looking to get better not win that specific high school game. The 'gurus' are just stating what should be obvious to all. Wanting kids to hit the back of the cage is stupid. Period. 

1.  What percentage of balls hit on a line to the back of the cage would be hits in a live game?  

2.  What percentage balls hit to the top net at the 30 degree line would be hits in a game?  

 

So last summer my kids team hit an enormous amount of fly balls.  A lot of wtp.  It was really frustrating.  So I did the numbers.  And while a significant pct. of flyballs where outs, so where a significant pcs. of groundballs.  Turned out, at least for our sample, that fly balls still had something like a 3-5% edge on ground balls to end up hits.  Doesn't directly answer your question, but is a data point. 

2020dad posted:

Hitting ground balls at any age is plain stupid. I don't care if the fielder makes an error.  You are looking to get better not win that specific high school game. The 'gurus' are just stating what should be obvious to all. Wanting kids to hit the back of the cage is stupid. Period. 

Incorrect.  The goal is to win games.  A good hitter can adjust their game as needed.  Putting the need to "get better" over the needs of a team is entirely wrong at the HS Varsity level.  Players with that kind of mentality should stick to JV Ball and Showcase Ball.

again I advocate line drives, but there are times when hard hit ground balls are exactly what is needed.

Had an interesting conversation last night in the cage with my 2017. he has been working at school, with some friends, over the winter with his travel program. last night was only the 2nd night I got spend in the cage with him since last fall. he is a thick kid, left handed power, typically has the one of the top averages on his various teams. he projects to be left handed power with average for college as well.

I noticed his swing looked a little different, I also had notice from some pics of game AB's this spring that he looked a bit different. So he proceeds to explain to me what he has been working to develop a little more tilt so he can improve his launch angles slightly... this is a kid who has never hit the ball on the ground.

So we talked and tossed and I watched, he is good, he is getting more lift, I noticed it in the games this spring I just didn't realize it was an intentional act...his average is down slightly, his power numbers are up in a bigger jump. the combo is tough to argue with.

Point being it is all about age appropriate timing. if he had been working on this stuff at 14 it would have been a waste. IMO - what did amaze me is the power an 18 YR old develops, I have soft tossed him thousands of times for years but now the balls just come screaming off his bat. You can hear the difference, no gun needed.

3and2Fastball posted:

2020dad posted:

Hitting ground balls at any age is plain stupid. I don't care if the fielder makes an error.  You are looking to get better not win that specific high school game. The 'gurus' are just stating what should be obvious to all. Wanting kids to hit the back of the cage is stupid. Period. 

Incorrect.  The goal is to win games.  A good hitter can adjust their game as needed.  Putting the need to "get better" over the needs of a team is entirely wrong at the HS Varsity level.  Players with that kind of mentality should stick to JV Ball and Showcase Ball.

again I advocate line drives, but there are times when hard hit ground balls are exactly what is needed.

it is called situational hitting...

3and2Fastball posted:

2020dad posted:

Hitting ground balls at any age is plain stupid. I don't care if the fielder makes an error.  You are looking to get better not win that specific high school game. The 'gurus' are just stating what should be obvious to all. Wanting kids to hit the back of the cage is stupid. Period. 

Incorrect.  The goal is to win games.  A good hitter can adjust their game as needed.  Putting the need to "get better" over the needs of a team is entirely wrong at the HS Varsity level.  Players with that kind of mentality should stick to JV Ball and Showcase Ball.

again I advocate line drives, but there are times when hard hit ground balls are exactly what is needed.

Incorrect the goal is to become the best player you can be. And maybe your kid is that big a superstar he can do whatever he wants with the bat.  Mine is not. He has to groove a swing and perfect it - and he is far from that point. Trying to change his swing to please some moron coach who wants him to hit ground balls is only going to put him further behind. Besides he will help any team more by getting the ball elevated. Ground balls are never exactly what you need.  But if you think ground balls are better maybe you should stick to JV ball. Cause if you play against varsity teams who can't catch a ground ball...  you must be in the summer ball contingent if Wisconsin baseball!  

real green posted:

2020dad posted:

Hitting ground balls at any age is plain stupid. I don't care if the fielder makes an error.  You are looking to get better not win that specific high school game. The 'gurus' are just stating what should be obvious to all. Wanting kids to hit the back of the cage is stupid. Period. 

1.  What percentage of balls hit on a line to the back of the cage would be hits in a live game?  

2.  What percentage balls hit to the top net at the 30 degree line would be hits in a game?  

 

I see the chart popped up again so that is helpful. Here is what you have to realize about your question - it is way too incomplete. At what exit velocity?  Hitting the back of the cage at 67mph is a ground out. Or more likely a soft line drive the pitcher catches. Pitchers in reality will field all but the very hardest hit balls that hit the back of the cage. So I would think not nearly as many hits as you may think.  Secondly I can guarantee you 100% of those hits are singles. Singles don't win ballgames. Plus you say 30 degrees. That is not the optimal launch angle. But still I will play by your rules. I will take 30 degrees and hit hard anytime over back of the cage. And a whole lot more run production from those hits also. 

old_school posted:

3and2Fastball posted:

2020dad posted:

Hitting ground balls at any age is plain stupid. I don't care if the fielder makes an error.  You are looking to get better not win that specific high school game. The 'gurus' are just stating what should be obvious to all. Wanting kids to hit the back of the cage is stupid. Period. 

Incorrect.  The goal is to win games.  A good hitter can adjust their game as needed.  Putting the need to "get better" over the needs of a team is entirely wrong at the HS Varsity level.  Players with that kind of mentality should stick to JV Ball and Showcase Ball.

again I advocate line drives, but there are times when hard hit ground balls are exactly what is needed.

it is called situational hitting...

Old school you have to go to some new school!  Sabermetrics are showing more and more that situational hitting is not the most productive way to go. Hitting behind runners is kind of a thing of the past. And keep in mind I am old also but we can't just ignore advances in science and statistical analysis. I am a die hard white sox fan (no I don't know why) and hate the Cubs. But you have to give Theo credit. We as baseball folks have to be honest and say these guys know more about these analytics than we do. We will make ourselves soumd silly if we just say 'I don't care what those fancy numbers say I know...'.  One guy once said to me "did that physicist play baseball?"  I was embarrassed for my profession (teaching/coaching) at that point. We have to listen and learn.  And in fact the most important situational hitting is getting the ball in the air deep enough to score a runner from third!!  Hitting ground balls behind runners is definitely a thing of the past. 

old_school posted:

Had an interesting conversation last night in the cage with my 2017. he has been working at school, with some friends, over the winter with his travel program. last night was only the 2nd night I got spend in the cage with him since last fall. he is a thick kid, left handed power, typically has the one of the top averages on his various teams. he projects to be left handed power with average for college as well.

I noticed his swing looked a little different, I also had notice from some pics of game AB's this spring that he looked a bit different. So he proceeds to explain to me what he has been working to develop a little more tilt so he can improve his launch angles slightly... this is a kid who has never hit the ball on the ground.

So we talked and tossed and I watched, he is good, he is getting more lift, I noticed it in the games this spring I just didn't realize it was an intentional act...his average is down slightly, his power numbers are up in a bigger jump. the combo is tough to argue with.

Point being it is all about age appropriate timing. if he had been working on this stuff at 14 it would have been a waste. IMO - what did amaze me is the power an 18 YR old develops, I have soft tossed him thousands of times for years but now the balls just come screaming off his bat. You can hear the difference, no gun needed.

Why would it be a waste at 14?  Why is it ever a waste to improve?  Even if some were caught on the warning track at 14 wouldn't many have gone for doubles, triples and homers?  I have seen many many 14's who have at least the capability to hit the ball 350 to 400 feet. 

2020dad posted:

real green posted:

2020dad posted:

Hitting ground balls at any age is plain stupid. I don't care if the fielder makes an error.  You are looking to get better not win that specific high school game. The 'gurus' are just stating what should be obvious to all. Wanting kids to hit the back of the cage is stupid. Period. 

1.  What percentage of balls hit on a line to the back of the cage would be hits in a live game?  

2.  What percentage balls hit to the top net at the 30 degree line would be hits in a game?  

 

I see the chart popped up again so that is helpful. Here is what you have to realize about your question - it is way too incomplete. At what exit velocity?  Hitting the back of the cage at 67mph is a ground out. Or more likely a soft line drive the pitcher catches. Pitchers in reality will field all but the very hardest hit balls that hit the back of the cage. So I would think not nearly as many hits as you may think.  Secondly I can guarantee you 100% of those hits are singles. Singles don't win ballgames. Plus you say 30 degrees. That is not the optimal launch angle. But still I will play by your rules. I will take 30 degrees and hit hard anytime over back of the cage. And a whole lot more run production from those hits also. 

The past two games I have seen some excellent F4 play.  Both on ground balls up the middle (to the back of the cage).  They where outs. 

Depending on the kid, the intent to hit line drives, if missed slightly, can be a hard hit ground ball as opposed to a fly ball.

Fly Balls are outs in HS Varsity.  Ground Balls are usually outs but not always.  

The "Me First" attitude and not listening to "some dumb coach" in High School is the biggest concern, but that is more of a generational thing from the current generation of kids and current generation of Boomer and Gen X parents.  Kids learn the wrong things and suffer greatly at the next level (if they even can get that far!) with lessons that are more painful and eye opening, if that is the lesson they are taught at home.

I agree with learning launch angle, I agree with knowing where it hits in the cage can tell you something about hits vs outs.  

Not sure a "grooved swing" should be the goal, but perhaps that is semantics.  Bases loaded, late inning, 2 strikes, and you are trying to elevate a slider on the outside corner of the strike zone?  I've seen a lot of kids look lost with 2 strikes in general as it is, because Dad/Coach has hammered into them a "elevate like Kris Bryant, don't listen to your coach kid" attitude.  No ability to adjust, no ability to expand the strike zone, no ability to just get the ball in play and move a runner over & help the team.

A vast majority of kids like that, if they are fortunate enough to even get to college ball, have to relearn how to hit in college or get labelled PO's before they ever get a chance.

Hitting behind a runner to move a player over, especially with 2 strikes and less than 2 outs and a runner on second, is not a thing of the past, especially at the HS, college, and most of MiLB levels!!!!

Preparing a kid for MLB before they ever even play Varsity HS is one of those things that drives coaches crazy about the current generation of players/parents.

3and2Fastball posted:

 

Fly Balls are outs in HS Varsity.  Ground Balls are usually outs but not always.  

 

That's just not necessarily true.  First, on our current HS team, we have more misplayed and errors on fly balls in the outfield than we do in the infield.  Second, as I posted before, on the kid's summer team (playing against above average HS competition) fly balls had a slight edge in hits over ground balls. 

And I agree on the situational hitting.  The kid's summer team sucked at it and it cost them.  Know the situation and do your job.  Not everything has to be hit to the fences. 

But the whole issue comes up when us northern folks are inside hitting in nets.  Coach's then spend the winter preaching hit the back of the net and anything which hits the top is "bad."  Funny though, when you get outside, they never say, I want you to hit 1 or 2 hoppers (because that's what hitting the back of the next amounts to). 

We know for a fact that a line drive is the most likely to fall for a hit.  We know that a good line drive trajectory is somewhere in the 10-20 deg. range.  So as to the OP, it makes total sense to somehow reference those flight paths in the tunnel.  When we do, we see that hitting the top of the tunnel isn't all that bad. 

3and2Fastball posted:

Depending on the kid, the intent to hit line drives, if missed slightly, can be a hard hit ground ball as opposed to a fly ball.

Fly Balls are outs in HS Varsity.  Ground Balls are usually outs but not always.  

The "Me First" attitude and not listening to "some dumb coach" in High School is the biggest concern, but that is more of a generational thing from the current generation of kids and current generation of Boomer and Gen X parents.  Kids learn the wrong things and suffer greatly at the next level (if they even can get that far!) with lessons that are more painful and eye opening, if that is the lesson they are taught at home.

I agree with learning launch angle, I agree with knowing where it hits in the cage can tell you something about hits vs outs.  

Not sure a "grooved swing" should be the goal, but perhaps that is semantics.  Bases loaded, late inning, 2 strikes, and you are trying to elevate a slider on the outside corner of the strike zone?  I've seen a lot of kids look lost with 2 strikes in general as it is, because Dad/Coach has hammered into them a "elevate like Kris Bryant, don't listen to your coach kid" attitude.  No ability to adjust, no ability to expand the strike zone, no ability to just get the ball in play and move a runner over & help the team.

A vast majority of kids like that, if they are fortunate enough to even get to college ball, have to relearn how to hit in college or get labelled PO's before they ever get a chance.

The idea that fly balls are always outs in HS Varsity is not accurate in my experience. I have seen deep fly balls -- not line drives -- in the gaps go for doubles and triples. Same thing as a ground ball through the hole going for a single. And of course some fly balls go over the fence.

Of course kids should be able to execute a bunt or a hit and run, or hitting behind the runner. At my son's HS they do that stuff. But in a run of the mill AB (let's say leading off an inning) they want them to drive the ball in the air, not hit a ground ball.

And when they are on defense, they are constantly looking for ground balls. I constantly hear the coaches say to the pitchers, "get me a ground ball here" -- if you want a ground ball when you are on defense, how could it be that you also want a ground ball when you are on offense? 

3and2Fastball posted:

Hitting behind a runner to move a player over, especially with 2 strikes and less than 2 outs and a runner on second, is not a thing of the past, especially at the HS, college, and most of MiLB levels!!!!

Preparing a kid for MLB before they ever even play Varsity HS is one of those things that drives coaches crazy about the current generation of players/parents.

Yes but how do you want them to "hit behind the runner?"  A ground ball to F4 (double play) or F3?  Or a double to RF?  I'll take the double, because it works "ebry tyne."   

We keep rehashing the same old stuff in this thread...  

Our HS varsity team uses situational hitting.  Our team takes a line drive approach, not a "lift" intent.  We put a premium on line drives and discourage fly balls and ground balls unless situationally appropriate.  We modify slightly with the outlier speed guy or true power guy.  Currently, we are considered the best hitting team in a decent California HS league that regularly has multiple teams chasing the equivalent of state in our division.  There is only one team in our league that has more extra base hits than we do.  Yet, we have scored over 20% more runs.

Most good HS AND college programs I am familiar with use the same approach and I make it a point to be familiar with many.  It is age and skill level appropriate.  Hitting behind the runner is definitely not dead.  We executed this in a key inning, as well as multiple bunts in another, just last night.  I talk to college players regularly who are taught the same thing we teach and are asked to execute situationally similar to us on a regular basis. 

If you are seeing "many many 14's who at least have the capability to hit the ball 350 to 400 feet", you are in a different world than I am and I'm in California where there is an abundance of good baseball.  There are plenty of reasons why you would not want to teach a 14 y.o. to lift.  How capable is he of getting the ball over the top and with what consistency?  What will that do to his ability to keep the barrel on plane with the ball for an optimal length of time?  Etc., etc.  There are plenty of reasons to teach a HS player how to be successful today instead of just focusing on what he may be able to do at the next level or when they get much stronger.  Here's one - Most HS players are not going to play at the next level.  Their baseball lives, memories, experiences hinge on what they can do to succeed now.

I am very in tune to what sabermetrics is bringing to the table, what the resulting changes are and how it affects decisions at the MLB level.  I am always trying to learn and keep up with any changes I should be making for my players.  In many cases, what applies to MLB players and that game does not apply as best practice to other levels.

As far as hitting the back of the cage...   you can youtube MLB and top college guys (with college, it is coaches with players)  doing hitting drills in cages.  Many of them clearly are intentionally trying to hit the back of the net, several even stating exactly that.  As I've stated in previous posts, I don't dispute the 15 - 25 degree stats at the MLB level.  But even many of those hits came about with the intent to just hit hard line drives.  Yes, some MLB players swing with intent to lift.  Not all.  Doesn't mean it's what every HS player should do, or even most.

Btw a good way to lift more is to aim a little more up the middle or the other way. Pulled fly balls are actually more productive but at the mlb level pulled balls are grounders way more often than oppo balls because the swing goes slightly up and to pull you have to hit it out front which means the chance that you roll over is higher.

If you hit the other way you tend to be a little more under the ball.

So with a runner on third it is a good idea to aim to left center because thqt decreases the chance of a grounder.

That is also why power hitters are shifted in the infield. They try to pull in in the air but if they are s little early they hit the top of the ball and roll into the shift but their fly balls tend to go more towards centerfield so the outfield still is played more straight up or only slightly shifted. 

cabbagedad posted:

We keep rehashing the same old stuff in this thread...  

Our HS varsity team uses situational hitting.  Our team takes a line drive approach, not a "lift" intent.  We put a premium on line drives and discourage fly balls and ground balls unless situationally appropriate.  We modify slightly with the outlier speed guy or true power guy.  Currently, we are considered the best hitting team in a decent California HS league that regularly has multiple teams chasing the equivalent of state in our division.  There is only one team in our league that has more extra base hits than we do.  Yet, we have scored over 20% more runs.

Most good HS AND college programs I am familiar with use the same approach and I make it a point to be familiar with many.  It is age and skill level appropriate.  Hitting behind the runner is definitely not dead.  We executed this in a key inning, as well as multiple bunts in another, just last night.  I talk to college players regularly who are taught the same thing we teach and are asked to execute situationally similar to us on a regular basis. 

If you are seeing "many many 14's who at least have the capability to hit the ball 350 to 400 feet", you are in a different world than I am and I'm in California where there is an abundance of good baseball.  There are plenty of reasons why you would not want to teach a 14 y.o. to lift.  How capable is he of getting the ball over the top and with what consistency?  What will that do to his ability to keep the barrel on plane with the ball for an optimal length of time?  Etc., etc.  There are plenty of reasons to teach a HS player how to be successful today instead of just focusing on what he may be able to do at the next level or when they get much stronger.  Here's one - Most HS players are not going to play at the next level.  Their baseball lives, memories, experiences hinge on what they can do to succeed now.

I am very in tune to what sabermetrics is bringing to the table, what the resulting changes are and how it affects decisions at the MLB level.  I am always trying to learn and keep up with any changes I should be making for my players.  In many cases, what applies to MLB players and that game does not apply as best practice to other levels.

As far as hitting the back of the cage...   you can youtube MLB and top college players doing hitting drills in cages.  Many of them clearly are intentionally trying to hit the back of the net, several even stating exactly that.  As I've stated in previous posts, I don't dispute the 15 - 25 degree stats at the MLB level.  But even many of those hits came about with the intent to just hit hard line drives.  Yes, some MLB players swing with intent to lift.  Not all.  Doesn't mean it's what every HS player should do, or even most.

I wanted to add to this, but can't I agree with pretty much every bit of it. 

While I understand the point of the conversations, it seems there is always a trend with "hitting gurus" that they believe is an absolute. And it changes every 5 years or so. Right now everyone must hit the ball in the air or your coach is not doing it right. While I greatly prefer line drives and mashed flyballs, I can't believe a hard ground ball is the devil or that situational hitting is dead.

And the whole point of games is to win them, as you develop kids to be the best they can be. If you're not trying to win then you're just at a showcase. 

Of course if this defense comes to high school fields, I take back everything I said about ground balls:

www.espn.com/blog/buster-olney...-a-ballpark-near-you

I'll just stick with "can the kid hit or not".  Numbers are what they are and too often the qualitative side of things are lost in the discussion.  Our beloved game is hard enough to play without all the "extra" things to think about and if anyone here doesn't think the average HS player is going to the plate thinking about all this; well....  I'm amazed at how some of the all time great players ever survived without all this.  Yes, I'm just a frustrated HS Coach who has grown weary of this debate and how players all believe they are built from the same mold because the numbers say they should be.  Be who you are, work hard, and be open to all thoughts and ideas on how to be better.

2020dad posted:

old_school posted:

Had an interesting conversation last night in the cage with my 2017. he has been working at school, with some friends, over the winter with his travel program. last night was only the 2nd night I got spend in the cage with him since last fall. he is a thick kid, left handed power, typically has the one of the top averages on his various teams. he projects to be left handed power with average for college as well.

I noticed his swing looked a little different, I also had notice from some pics of game AB's this spring that he looked a bit different. So he proceeds to explain to me what he has been working to develop a little more tilt so he can improve his launch angles slightly... this is a kid who has never hit the ball on the ground.

So we talked and tossed and I watched, he is good, he is getting more lift, I noticed it in the games this spring I just didn't realize it was an intentional act...his average is down slightly, his power numbers are up in a bigger jump. the combo is tough to argue with.

Point being it is all about age appropriate timing. if he had been working on this stuff at 14 it would have been a waste. IMO - what did amaze me is the power an 18 YR old develops, I have soft tossed him thousands of times for years but now the balls just come screaming off his bat. You can hear the difference, no gun needed.

Why would it be a waste at 14?  Why is it ever a waste to improve?  Even if some were caught on the warning track at 14 wouldn't many have gone for doubles, triples and homers?  I have seen many many 14's who have at least the capability to hit the ball 350 to 400 feet. 

you lose me here, I have not seen many 14u that can do this consistently, specifically not with wood or BBcor. back in the BSR days I would be more inclined to give you more leeway on this.

2019Dad posted:

Of course if this defense comes to high school fields, I take back everything I said about ground balls:

www.espn.com/blog/buster-olney...-a-ballpark-near-you

Several years ago, there was a high school player in our area who ended up a first round MLB draft choice.  As I recall, he frequently faced a four-man outfield. 

cabbagedad posted:

 

As far as hitting the back of the cage...   you can youtube MLB and top college guys (with college, it is coaches with players)  doing hitting drills in cages.  Many of them clearly are intentionally trying to hit the back of the net, several even stating exactly that.  As I've stated in previous posts, I don't dispute the 15 - 25 degree stats at the MLB level.  But even many of those hits came about with the intent to just hit hard line drives.  Yes, some MLB players swing with intent to lift.  Not all.  Doesn't mean it's what every HS player should do, or even most.

With that I'll agree.  Hitting Drills.  There is a purpose.  Heck we'll drill it when the kid gets too upright.  We have all seen the Chipper Jones video.  But do those same players take pre-game BP trying to hit the back of the cage (1-2 hoppers off the infield)?  Everyone I have seen laces lines drives all over the field.  Except, Mike Trout.  There was a story floating around that he was trying to hit a particular garbage dumpster beyond the seats in spring training.  They had to move the dumpster to different areas so he would hit to all fields.   

My frustration lies in batting practice and evaluation.  Some coaches evaluate their players via hitting the back of the cage during live pitching.  So you start 0-0.  What do they want?  Hit the back of the cage.  1-1, hit the back of the cage.  2-1, hit the back of the cage.  After we do all the drills, what are we trying to do?  When the pitching is live, I want the double.  Why?  It works Ebry tyne.  Doubles hit the top of the cage. 

Golfman25 posted:

cabbagedad posted:

 

As far as hitting the back of the cage...   you can youtube MLB and top college guys (with college, it is coaches with players)  doing hitting drills in cages.  Many of them clearly are intentionally trying to hit the back of the net, several even stating exactly that.  As I've stated in previous posts, I don't dispute the 15 - 25 degree stats at the MLB level.  But even many of those hits came about with the intent to just hit hard line drives.  Yes, some MLB players swing with intent to lift.  Not all.  Doesn't mean it's what every HS player should do, or even most.

 

My frustration lies in batting practice and evaluation.  Some coaches evaluate their players via hitting the back of the cage during live pitching.  So you start 0-0.  What do they want?  Hit the back of the cage.  1-1, hit the back of the cage.  2-1, hit the back of the cage.  After we do all the drills, what are we trying to do?  When the pitching is live, I want the double.  Why?  It works Ebry tyne.  Doubles hit the top of the cage. 

That makes plenty of sense. We take 90% of our BP swings on the field, and I end up fighting the opposite sometimes. We have a small park where the predominant wind blows out to LF, sometimes 20mph+. Kids will hit a wind-aided 305 ft weak flyball and have it leave the yard. Then they can't understand why I'm not chestbumping them and hitting them 3-hole. 

The key is to have an intelligent coach who can evaluate kids abilities, needs, and potential in different environments, and then communicate that effectively to the player to help him get better. (I'm nowhere near that coach unfortunately.) Sometimes a kid may need to hear "line drive back of cage," and sometimes we may need to try and get him to pull and elevate. 

All I know is that in baseball there are very few, if any, absolutes. And as soon as someone starts telling me their way is the only way, my interest in what they have to say diminishes greatly.

I am not even sure where to begin...  

how bout here.  There are tons of 14's who can hit the ball 350-400. Let's just take the low end of that. 350 feet is 90mph of exit velo.  That translates to about low to mid 80's off the tee. Look at showcase results.  There are a good number of kids who can do that. And in the states that allow hot bats for 14u there are certainly lots and lots.  If we want to talk 15u/freshman I won't say it is commonplace but it certainly isn't rare.  And I would guess at least half of anything decent travel team can achieve that. 

The greats of all time didn't think about all this...  they did it naturally!

developing the kid to be the best he can be is obviously also going to help his team!  But I do find it hypocritical how we here so often that development should come before winning...  right up til somebody doesn't agree with your development path lol!

There are some absolutes trouble is too many people don't want to accept it!  And Ted Williams talked to anyone who would listen about these same things 50+ years ago!  And still some want to rip the 'hitting gurus'!

What applies inMLB certainly does apply in younger ages.  Well at least we don't hear much anymore the old "don't watch the pros you will pick up bad habits" so I guess that is progress.  Fact of the matter is the MLB swing should be copied by anyone who wants to be great - or even really good.  There are not different swings for different ages - that is a myth and if you buy into it you will put your kid behind.

And last but not least the old 'most players won't play at the next level'  Well that is statistically true I suppose.  But first I would guess most here don't feel they are in that category.  Truth is there is a place for just about any serious player who wants to play.  And even so should we teach them the wrong way to do things simply because we think most will not play at the next level?

old_school posted:

2020dad posted:

old_school posted:

Had an interesting conversation last night in the cage with my 2017. he has been working at school, with some friends, over the winter with his travel program. last night was only the 2nd night I got spend in the cage with him since last fall. he is a thick kid, left handed power, typically has the one of the top averages on his various teams. he projects to be left handed power with average for college as well.

I noticed his swing looked a little different, I also had notice from some pics of game AB's this spring that he looked a bit different. So he proceeds to explain to me what he has been working to develop a little more tilt so he can improve his launch angles slightly... this is a kid who has never hit the ball on the ground.

So we talked and tossed and I watched, he is good, he is getting more lift, I noticed it in the games this spring I just didn't realize it was an intentional act...his average is down slightly, his power numbers are up in a bigger jump. the combo is tough to argue with.

Point being it is all about age appropriate timing. if he had been working on this stuff at 14 it would have been a waste. IMO - what did amaze me is the power an 18 YR old develops, I have soft tossed him thousands of times for years but now the balls just come screaming off his bat. You can hear the difference, no gun needed.

Why would it be a waste at 14?  Why is it ever a waste to improve?  Even if some were caught on the warning track at 14 wouldn't many have gone for doubles, triples and homers?  I have seen many many 14's who have at least the capability to hit the ball 350 to 400 feet. 

you lose me here, I have not seen many 14u that can do this consistently, specifically not with wood or BBcor. back in the BSR days I would be more inclined to give you more leeway on this.

And quite honestly the reason they can not do it more consistently is all this coaching for years teaching them to hit the back of the cage!!!  Back in the day when we played pick up games and didn't have enough guys it was right field out and you turned and burned and hit the damn ball in the air!!  Come on old timers - you know it's true!  I don't know who started this ground ball thing but it was us old guys!  We played home run derby, three flies, put marks on the grass or walls or whatever and the higher and farther you hit it the better.  Old school if you are really old school tell me when you and your friends ever got together to challenge each other to a ground ball hitting contest!!

It's the era of the batting cage that has made coaches dumber.  Fortunately the great players know better!

2020dad posted:

 

There are some absolutes trouble is too many people don't want to accept it!  And Ted Williams talked to anyone who would listen about these same things 50+ years ago!  And still some want to rip the 'hitting gurus'!

 

What do you feel are the absolutes? I agree there are a few. And which absolutes don't people want to accept?  

ironhorse posted:

2020dad posted:

 

There are some absolutes trouble is too many people don't want to accept it!  And Ted Williams talked to anyone who would listen about these same things 50+ years ago!  And still some want to rip the 'hitting gurus'!

 

What do you feel are the absolutes? I agree there are a few. And which absolutes don't people want to accept?  

Well let's start with the obvious.  There are still those that teach - and mean it not as a cue - the level swing. There are still those who do the silly demonstrations with their hands while teaching "swing down to make the ball go up". There is no shortage of those who honestly believe you should hit the inside top half of the ball and somehow magically the ball will still be able to find the LC gap!  It is an absolute that MLB players are the best in the world and copying them is probably a pretty good idea. It is an absolute that 'just meet the ball' is a bad idea.  You need good exit velocity just to get it out of the infield unless you have somehow perfected the Texas leaguer swing. How is that for just a start?

Golfman25 posted:

...  When the pitching is live, I want the double.  Why?  It works Ebry tyne.  Doubles hit the top of the cage. 

Well, I wish I knew of players who could hit doubles when they wanted to 

I get the point but disagree with the method when it comes to most HS players.  I have found that there will be far more success with line drive purpose as opposed to lift intent, not only with overall hits but also with XBH's.  The result of line drive intent is optimal barreling consistency, which results in more XBH, whether low liners in the gaps and down the lines or those caught slightly under, which backspin and carry even better over top and in the gaps.  Also, certain pitch types/locations will induce slightly more lift in the swing.  With line drive purpose, that added tilt is like to remain on plane with the pitch and produce better results.   When there is lift purpose, good barrel consistency is even more difficult with these pitches.  And barreled balls, then, are more often just very high fly balls.

I have a current player who is the perfect example.  Strong and athletic, capable of banging the fences.  Came in this Spring with a lift swing.  Struggled with K's and consistency.  When he barreled it, it was good... doubles.  Just not as often as he was capable.  If you are thinking he just needs to be sharper, this was not a case of lack of work and reps.  We got his swing on plane and with a line drive intent.  Now he is hitting for average and power with far fewer K's.  He is hitting more XBH's and just as many over the top.  Now, the slight misses are often good results.  Before, they were not.  This is consistent with what I have seen over the years regarding players' swing plane and launch intent.

cabbagedad posted:

Golfman25 posted:

...  When the pitching is live, I want the double.  Why?  It works Ebry tyne.  Doubles hit the top of the cage. 

Well, I wish I knew of players who could hit doubles when they wanted to 

I get the point but disagree with the method when it comes to most HS players.  I have found that there will be far more success with line drive purpose as opposed to lift intent, not only with overall hits but also with XBH's.  The result of line drive intent is optimal barreling consistency, which results in more XBH, whether low liners in the gaps and down the lines or those caught slightly under, which backspin and carry even better over top and in the gaps.  Also, certain pitch types/locations will induce slightly more lift in the swing.  With line drive purpose, that added tilt is like to remain on plane with the pitch and produce better results.   When there is lift purpose, good barrel consistency is even more difficult with these pitches.  And barreled balls, then, are more often just very high fly balls.

I have a current player who is the perfect example.  Strong and athletic, capable of banging the fences.  Came in this Spring with a lift swing.  Struggled with K's and consistency.  When he barreled it, it was good... doubles.  Just not as often as he was capable.  If you are thinking he just needs to be sharper, this was not a case of lack of work and reps.  We got his swing on plane and with a line drive intent.  Now he is hitting for average and power with far fewer K's.  He is hitting more XBH's and just as many over the top.  Now, the slight misses are often good results.  Before, they were not.  This is consistent with what I have seen over the years regarding players' swing plane and launch intent.

Agree 100%.  But line drives hit the top of the cage.  It's a mathematical fact (unless you have some 40 foot tall cage).   

2020dad posted:

old_school posted:

2020dad posted:

old_school posted:

Had an interesting conversation last night in the cage with my 2017. he has been working at school, with some friends, over the winter with his travel program. last night was only the 2nd night I got spend in the cage with him since last fall. he is a thick kid, left handed power, typically has the one of the top averages on his various teams. he projects to be left handed power with average for college as well.

I noticed his swing looked a little different, I also had notice from some pics of game AB's this spring that he looked a bit different. So he proceeds to explain to me what he has been working to develop a little more tilt so he can improve his launch angles slightly... this is a kid who has never hit the ball on the ground.

So we talked and tossed and I watched, he is good, he is getting more lift, I noticed it in the games this spring I just didn't realize it was an intentional act...his average is down slightly, his power numbers are up in a bigger jump. the combo is tough to argue with.

Point being it is all about age appropriate timing. if he had been working on this stuff at 14 it would have been a waste. IMO - what did amaze me is the power an 18 YR old develops, I have soft tossed him thousands of times for years but now the balls just come screaming off his bat. You can hear the difference, no gun needed.

Why would it be a waste at 14?  Why is it ever a waste to improve?  Even if some were caught on the warning track at 14 wouldn't many have gone for doubles, triples and homers?  I have seen many many 14's who have at least the capability to hit the ball 350 to 400 feet. 

you lose me here, I have not seen many 14u that can do this consistently, specifically not with wood or BBcor. back in the BSR days I would be more inclined to give you more leeway on this.

And quite honestly the reason they can not do it more consistently is all this coaching for years teaching them to hit the back of the cage!!!  Back in the day when we played pick up games and didn't have enough guys it was right field out and you turned and burned and hit the damn ball in the air!!  Come on old timers - you know it's true!  I don't know who started this ground ball thing but it was us old guys!  We played home run derby, three flies, put marks on the grass or walls or whatever and the higher and farther you hit it the better.  Old school if you are really old school tell me when you and your friends ever got together to challenge each other to a ground ball hitting contest!!

Heck we typically didn't have enough infielders. So ground balls where outs. 

We used to play in my back yard.  Starting in grade school.  Then one day we grew up.  Started hitting the neighbors house in left field (they had a nice big window).  There was a grain silo on the farm behind my house.  We knew we were getting too big when my good buddy put one on the top of that silo.  It was da bomb.  After that, we had to move to a real field. 

2020Dad, I agree with most of what you just posted.  Huge Ted Williams fan here.  He said a slight uppercut.  Same thing with most current MLB hitters, slight uppercut.  

2020dad posted:

ironhorse posted:

2020dad posted:

 

There are some absolutes trouble is too many people don't want to accept it!  And Ted Williams talked to anyone who would listen about these same things 50+ years ago!  And still some want to rip the 'hitting gurus'!

 

What do you feel are the absolutes? I agree there are a few. And which absolutes don't people want to accept?  

Well let's start with the obvious.  There are still those that teach - and mean it not as a cue - the level swing. There are still those who do the silly demonstrations with their hands while teaching "swing down to make the ball go up". There is no shortage of those who honestly believe you should hit the inside top half of the ball and somehow magically the ball will still be able to find the LC gap!  It is an absolute that MLB players are the best in the world and copying them is probably a pretty good idea. It is an absolute that 'just meet the ball' is a bad idea.  You need good exit velocity just to get it out of the infield unless you have somehow perfected the Texas leaguer swing. How is that for just a start?

Not a very good start honestly. If I was a player not sure I'd grasp all those absolutes due to the negative examples. Not that I disagree with some of where you're going.

To me, absolute: a swing that keeps the barrel on plane in the zone for the longest time possible gives the best chance for consistent contact. To me, that can't be argued. Might have different ideas of on plane, but once really delved into the plane of the pitch is the plane of the pitch, no matter opinions.

So what hitting absolutes do you have?

And I would disagree that studying "major leaguers is always the best idea. Dependent on the kid and the MLB player.

Here is a good explanation for the swing level of some pros

https://youtu.be/hELThd8Voj8

Basically the swing is level to the chest/top of the shoulders and the body tilt causes a slight uppercut. In a cage swing they engage less in the legs and hips so the swing is quite flat. In a game swing the spine angle slightly changes and you swing up more. 

2020dad posted:

.

Why would it be a waste at 14?  Why is it ever a waste to improve?  Even if some were caught on the warning track at 14 wouldn't many have gone for doubles, triples and homers?  I have seen many many 14's who have at least the capability to hit the ball 350 to 400 feet. 

you lose me here, I have not seen many 14u that can do this consistently, specifically not with wood or BBcor. back in the BSR days I would be more inclined to give you more leeway on this.

And quite honestly the reason they can not do it more consistently is all this coaching for years teaching them to hit the back of the cage!!!  ...

Come on, man... REALLY?         THAT'S why most 14 y.o.'s can't hit it 350-400' ???

Most 14 y.o.'s can't hit the ball that far consistently because they aren't physically developed enough to hit the ball that far, regardless of mechanics or swing plane.  PERIOD.

Hell, our field is typical HS dims - 325 down the line, 375 straight away.  The ball rarely leaves the yard in BP or in games by our varsity players or any other team's V players and when it does, it's usually nearer the corners, closer to 325 than 350.  That's 15-18 y.o. V players.  14 y.o. JV guys?  consistently?  ...  no.  And this includes the kids who are trying to elevate.

This thread got me thinking about my son's swing. I never taught him to lift the ball on purpose but I think he has a natural lift element to his swing. I told him that his goal should be to barrel up as many as possible and he can't control the outcome.

I checked tonight and will admit that's it a VERY small sample size but every one of his base hits have been in the air (one line drive between first and second) and all three ground balls have resulted in outs.  Obviously, he's made out in the air as well. 

I will continue to monitor throughout the last four regular season games and playoffs. 

ironhorse posted:

cabbagedad posted:

We keep rehashing the same old stuff in this thread...  

Our HS varsity team uses situational hitting.  Our team takes a line drive approach, not a "lift" intent.  We put a premium on line drives and discourage fly balls and ground balls unless situationally appropriate.  We modify slightly with the outlier speed guy or true power guy.  Currently, we are considered the best hitting team in a decent California HS league that regularly has multiple teams chasing the equivalent of state in our division.  There is only one team in our league that has more extra base hits than we do.  Yet, we have scored over 20% more runs.

Most good HS AND college programs I am familiar with use the same approach and I make it a point to be familiar with many.  It is age and skill level appropriate.  Hitting behind the runner is definitely not dead.  We executed this in a key inning, as well as multiple bunts in another, just last night.  I talk to college players regularly who are taught the same thing we teach and are asked to execute situationally similar to us on a regular basis. 

If you are seeing "many many 14's who at least have the capability to hit the ball 350 to 400 feet", you are in a different world than I am and I'm in California where there is an abundance of good baseball.  There are plenty of reasons why you would not want to teach a 14 y.o. to lift.  How capable is he of getting the ball over the top and with what consistency?  What will that do to his ability to keep the barrel on plane with the ball for an optimal length of time?  Etc., etc.  There are plenty of reasons to teach a HS player how to be successful today instead of just focusing on what he may be able to do at the next level or when they get much stronger.  Here's one - Most HS players are not going to play at the next level.  Their baseball lives, memories, experiences hinge on what they can do to succeed now.

I am very in tune to what sabermetrics is bringing to the table, what the resulting changes are and how it affects decisions at the MLB level.  I am always trying to learn and keep up with any changes I should be making for my players.  In many cases, what applies to MLB players and that game does not apply as best practice to other levels.

As far as hitting the back of the cage...   you can youtube MLB and top college players doing hitting drills in cages.  Many of them clearly are intentionally trying to hit the back of the net, several even stating exactly that.  As I've stated in previous posts, I don't dispute the 15 - 25 degree stats at the MLB level.  But even many of those hits came about with the intent to just hit hard line drives.  Yes, some MLB players swing with intent to lift.  Not all.  Doesn't mean it's what every HS player should do, or even most.

I wanted to add to this, but can't I agree with pretty much every bit of it. 

While I understand the point of the conversations, it seems there is always a trend with "hitting gurus" that they believe is an absolute. And it changes every 5 years or so. Right now everyone must hit the ball in the air or your coach is not doing it right. While I greatly prefer line drives and mashed flyballs, I can't believe a hard ground ball is the devil or that situational hitting is dead.

And the whole point of games is to win them, as you develop kids to be the best they can be. If you're not trying to win then you're just at a showcase. 

 

There is a fair amount of good observation here. Well said.

2020dad posted:

 

how bout here.  There are tons of 14's who can hit the ball 350-400. Let's just take the low end of that. 350 feet is 90mph of exit velo.  That translates to about low to mid 80's off the tee. Look at showcase results.  There are a good number of kids who can do that. And in the states that allow hot bats for 14u there are certainly lots and lots.  If we want to talk 15u/freshman I won't say it is commonplace but it certainly isn't rare.  And I would guess at least half of anything decent travel team can achieve that. 

this is a key point, there aren't "tons of 14's" who can do this...your next sentence is "if you want to talk 15u I won't say it is commonplace" you can't have it both ways.

the 14u kid hitting bombs with a balloon bat doesn't sudden get worse over the winter before 15u - he is now using a big boy bat. When you graduate to the real bats you will learn that the math you are so proud of doesn't apply...

Even if the kids are able to generate the EV numbers that you are quoting off a T that just shows how tough it is to square it up. Based on your comments and the numbers you are using the HR and over all power numbers for HS and college should be WAY WAY higher then they are...it is either much tougher then you think or the whole world is stupid.

I realize it is possible that your math is correct and you are just the smartest guy in the room! Real world variables apply, the data doesn't back up the math at the younger levels below college or at a minimum Varsity ball and I am one of the guys who kind of agrees with you!!

This thread is after all talking about 14 yo trying to hit a round ball with round bat.  I have a hard time getting my 14 yo to consistently be a student and he supposedly practices that 5 days a week for 6 hours.  I know he can't consistently get the optimum launch angle off of his bat quite yet. I do not deny Kris Bryant and Ted Williams try/tried to elevate the ball for HRs.  They are elite hitters with grown man strength. I don't believe a 14 yo will consistently have the functional strength to do this consistently at an optimum launch angle.  For my 2020 I just want the bat to stay through the zone long enough for line drives into the gaps, good things tend to happen for him if that occurs.  I also found this tends not to cloud his mind with over analysis during games. 

I also have this same line drive approach with my 2017 who does hit HRs.  His HRs are big boy power alley and not 337ft over the LF fence. He is a lot closer to man strength than my 2020.

I hesitate to post on hitting threads. Hitting threads can be so, well I can't even find the words to describe it. I guess it goes back to all the threads on rotational, linear etc etc.

 Some kids are simply born with the ability to time it up. Some are simply born with the ability to barrel the baseball consistently. Some have a natural swing path and many do not. It is a lot like throwing motions. Some are born with a natural ability to throw. It just flows. No one had to teach them it's natural to them. Some have to be taught and trained to do what comes natural to others.

I believe the best swing path is the one that gets you in the zone the quickest, allows you to stay in the zone the longest, gets there with a slight uppercut, and is on time. BP for hitters is easy. It's quite honestly an ability to reproduce that sweet swing over and over. Almost every pitch is barreled up hit with authority. The vast majority of the balls hit are either line drives or deep fly balls. Ground balls are smoked but rare.

The ground ball has been taught for years at the HS level. Your dealing with a wide variety of skill levels. Your dumbing down is what your doing. You don't take the time to teach individuals you cookie cutter approach it. The theory was created in order to give your team a better opportunity to win at the expense of the actual development of your players. This is how it was explained to me when I first started coaching at the HS level.

Fly Ball - It takes one player making one play to record an out. Most players are incapable of leaving the yard. Fly balls result in outs the vast majority of the time.

Ground Balls - It has to be hit where a fielder can actually get to it. He has to field it cleanly. He has to make an accurate throw. It has to get there in time. Someone has to catch it - to record an out.

So the more ground balls we hit the better opportunity we have to win the game.

So what happens is coaches are teaching hitters to swing down on the ball in order to create more ground balls. Probably giving some hitters a better opportunity to reach base. Probably winning more games. And definitely hindering the development of hitters greatly.

I believe as a coach your job is to develop your players to the best of your ability. Ultimately giving your team the best opportunity to have success at the same time giving your players the best opportunity to have success. I believe you should coach up to the highest level not down to the lowest. I believe your goal should be that every player play at the highest level they can achieve. In other words when your coaching Pre HS players you should be preparing them for HS baseball. When your coaching HS players you should be preparing them for college baseball. Etc etc.

I don't believe you do that by sacrificing their development as players for the sake of winning a game today. The fact is you will win more games today by preparing them for tomorrow.

Hitting for me is about mashing the baseball. Hitting it as far and as hard as you are physically capable of. Developing a swing path that you can repeat with ease over and over again and take to the game with confidence. I never liked BP in the cage. I used the cage for drills. I believe in hitting live on field. I want the player to get that feedback now. I want that feedback now. When players understand launch angle and get that feedback they can see, they learn how to make the needed adjustments. They at the least can relate to what you are trying to teach them.

I understand some kids are not strong enough entering HS to have the success with this approach that they are used to at the younger levels. That bomb at 13 14u is now a routine fly ball on the HS field. Now that is a fact for many. That 300' fence is now 375' 400'. But as they get stronger it all works out. Do you dumb them down to get on base and when they get stronger change their swing to accommodate the new found strength? No of course not. We teach mechanics to produce the absolute most velo we can get and continue to push the limits on creating more and more velo. You will never throw it too hard. Then why don't we do the same with hitting? Do we say "Don't try and throw hard. Don't work for more velo. Just fool them. Then why do we tell hitters to simply settle for GB's because it will help us win?

Of course just because you work to create a swing that produces lift and power doesn't mean you won't still produce some GB's. It's just not the goal. But maybe those GB's will be freaking worm burners you just missed? I don't have all the answers but I believe hitting should be fun and it should be MAXED out in the same way VELO is maxed out. Get all you can and you never have enough.

ironhorse posted:

2020dad posted:

ironhorse posted:

2020dad posted:

 

There are some absolutes trouble is too many people don't want to accept it!  And Ted Williams talked to anyone who would listen about these same things 50+ years ago!  And still some want to rip the 'hitting gurus'!

 

What do you feel are the absolutes? I agree there are a few. And which absolutes don't people want to accept?  

Well let's start with the obvious.  There are still those that teach - and mean it not as a cue - the level swing. There are still those who do the silly demonstrations with their hands while teaching "swing down to make the ball go up". There is no shortage of those who honestly believe you should hit the inside top half of the ball and somehow magically the ball will still be able to find the LC gap!  It is an absolute that MLB players are the best in the world and copying them is probably a pretty good idea. It is an absolute that 'just meet the ball' is a bad idea.  You need good exit velocity just to get it out of the infield unless you have somehow perfected the Texas leaguer swing. How is that for just a start?

Not a very good start honestly. If I was a player not sure I'd grasp all those absolutes due to the negative examples. Not that I disagree with some of where you're going.

To me, absolute: a swing that keeps the barrel on plane in the zone for the longest time possible gives the best chance for consistent contact. To me, that can't be argued. Might have different ideas of on plane, but once really delved into the plane of the pitch is the plane of the pitch, no matter opinions.

So what hitting absolutes do you have?

And I would disagree that studying "major leaguers is always the best idea. Dependent on the kid and the MLB player.

 

 

(this may be stated in following posts, I just started reading the thread)

Since a pitched ball is dropping, the plane to stay on is an uppercut.

Some interesting team stats from the SEC web site...I assume they have quite a few fairly solid hitters there who job description is to mash...I hope the sarcasm is clear!!

Missouri - AB's - 1126 Extra base hits - 99

S Carolina AB- 1097 EX hits 87

Tenn - 1056 and 81

A&M 1187 and 106

Vandy 1157 and 95

Bama 1076 and 87

Ark - 1166 99

Auburn 1146 and 90

Florida 1083 and 76

GA 1133 and 84

Kentucky 1115 and 117

LSU 1150 and 96

Ole' Miss - 1060 and 75

MSU 1187 and 109

less then 10% of AB's are hits are for extra bases...but you can find "loads" and "tons" of 14u's who are driving it deep - those dumb asses in the SEC should really start recruiting better...again I hope the sarcasm is clear!

What those stats show is just how hard it is to get an extra base hit the higher level you play. The pitching is outstanding. The speed of the outfielders is tremendous. The goal, the intent doesn't always and that's clear give you the result you are looking for. I can bet you one thing the players who can not drive the baseball are not on the rosters.

Coach_May posted:

I hesitate to post on hitting threads. Hitting threads can be so, well I can't even find the words to describe it. I guess it goes back to all the threads on rotational, linear etc etc.

 Some kids are simply born with the ability to time it up. Some are simply born with the ability to barrel the baseball consistently. Some have a natural swing path and many do not. It is a lot like throwing motions. Some are born with a natural ability to throw. It just flows. No one had to teach them it's natural to them. Some have to be taught and trained to do what comes natural to others.

I believe the best swing path is the one that gets you in the zone the quickest, allows you to stay in the zone the longest, gets there with a slight uppercut, and is on time. BP for hitters is easy. It's quite honestly an ability to reproduce that sweet swing over and over. Almost every pitch is barreled up hit with authority. The vast majority of the balls hit are either line drives or deep fly balls. Ground balls are smoked but rare.

The ground ball has been taught for years at the HS level. Your dealing with a wide variety of skill levels. Your dumbing down is what your doing. You don't take the time to teach individuals you cookie cutter approach it. The theory was created in order to give your team a better opportunity to win at the expense of the actual development of your players. This is how it was explained to me when I first started coaching at the HS level.

Fly Ball - It takes one player making one play to record an out. Most players are incapable of leaving the yard. Fly balls result in outs the vast majority of the time.

Ground Balls - It has to be hit where a fielder can actually get to it. He has to field it cleanly. He has to make an accurate throw. It has to get there in time. Someone has to catch it - to record an out.

So the more ground balls we hit the better opportunity we have to win the game.

So what happens is coaches are teaching hitters to swing down on the ball in order to create more ground balls. Probably giving some hitters a better opportunity to reach base. Probably winning more games. And definitely hindering the development of hitters greatly.

I believe as a coach your job is to develop your players to the best of your ability. Ultimately giving your team the best opportunity to have success at the same time giving your players the best opportunity to have success. I believe you should coach up to the highest level not down to the lowest. I believe your goal should be that every player play at the highest level they can achieve. In other words when your coaching Pre HS players you should be preparing them for HS baseball. When your coaching HS players you should be preparing them for college baseball. Etc etc.

I don't believe you do that by sacrificing their development as players for the sake of winning a game today. The fact is you will win more games today by preparing them for tomorrow.

Hitting for me is about mashing the baseball. Hitting it as far and as hard as you are physically capable of. Developing a swing path that you can repeat with ease over and over again and take to the game with confidence. I never liked BP in the cage. I used the cage for drills. I believe in hitting live on field. I want the player to get that feedback now. I want that feedback now. When players understand launch angle and get that feedback they can see, they learn how to make the needed adjustments. They at the least can relate to what you are trying to teach them.

I understand some kids are not strong enough entering HS to have the success with this approach that they are used to at the younger levels. That bomb at 13 14u is now a routine fly ball on the HS field. Now that is a fact for many. That 300' fence is now 375' 400'. But as they get stronger it all works out. Do you dumb them down to get on base and when they get stronger change their swing to accommodate the new found strength? No of course not. We teach mechanics to produce the absolute most velo we can get and continue to push the limits on creating more and more velo. You will never throw it too hard. Then why don't we do the same with hitting? Do we say "Don't try and throw hard. Don't work for more velo. Just fool them. Then why do we tell hitters to simply settle for GB's because it will help us win?

Of course just because you work to create a swing that produces lift and power doesn't mean you won't still produce some GB's. It's just not the goal. But maybe those GB's will be freaking worm burners you just missed? I don't have all the answers but I believe hitting should be fun and it should be MAXED out in the same way VELO is maxed out. Get all you can and you never have enough.

 

 

This is the greatest post on hitting that I have read on HSBBW. I nominate this for a golden post.

Go44dad posted:

ironhorse posted:

2020dad posted:

ironhorse posted:

2020dad posted:

 

There are some absolutes trouble is too many people don't want to accept it!  And Ted Williams talked to anyone who would listen about these same things 50+ years ago!  And still some want to rip the 'hitting gurus'!

 

What do you feel are the absolutes? I agree there are a few. And which absolutes don't people want to accept?  

Well let's start with the obvious.  There are still those that teach - and mean it not as a cue - the level swing. There are still those who do the silly demonstrations with their hands while teaching "swing down to make the ball go up". There is no shortage of those who honestly believe you should hit the inside top half of the ball and somehow magically the ball will still be able to find the LC gap!  It is an absolute that MLB players are the best in the world and copying them is probably a pretty good idea. It is an absolute that 'just meet the ball' is a bad idea.  You need good exit velocity just to get it out of the infield unless you have somehow perfected the Texas leaguer swing. How is that for just a start?

Not a very good start honestly. If I was a player not sure I'd grasp all those absolutes due to the negative examples. Not that I disagree with some of where you're going.

To me, absolute: a swing that keeps the barrel on plane in the zone for the longest time possible gives the best chance for consistent contact. To me, that can't be argued. Might have different ideas of on plane, but once really delved into the plane of the pitch is the plane of the pitch, no matter opinions.

So what hitting absolutes do you have?

And I would disagree that studying "major leaguers is always the best idea. Dependent on the kid and the MLB player.

 

 

(this may be stated in following posts, I just started reading the thread)

Since a pitched ball is dropping, the plane to stay on is an uppercut.

Agreed.  I don't think there is anyone on this thread that proposes the plane to be less than the slightly upward one that matches the pitch plane.  I think the basic recent debate in this thread is whether one should intentionally try to hit the ball at a high launch angle (which, in effect, has the plane more upward than most pitch angles and means the barrel will be on plane for a shorter period of time than if one were trying to hit on plane).  So it's "line drive" vs "lift" intent.  I believe age and player specific skill set factors in.  I also believe that, while there are certainly MLB players who hit with lift intent, there are also many MLB players who take a line drive approach and still hit for power.  And as Coach May points out, ideally, it is just the player's natural swing.

old_school posted:

Some interesting team stats from the SEC web site...I assume they have quite a few fairly solid hitters there who job description is to mash...I hope the sarcasm is clear!!

Missouri - AB's - 1126 Extra base hits - 99

S Carolina AB- 1097 EX hits 87

Tenn - 1056 and 81

A&M 1187 and 106

Vandy 1157 and 95

Bama 1076 and 87

Ark - 1166 99

Auburn 1146 and 90

Florida 1083 and 76

GA 1133 and 84

Kentucky 1115 and 117

LSU 1150 and 96

Ole' Miss - 1060 and 75

MSU 1187 and 109

less then 10% of AB's are hits are for extra bases...but you can find "loads" and "tons" of 14u's who are driving it deep - those dumb asses in the SEC should really start recruiting better...again I hope the sarcasm is clear!

 

So how many of those extra base hits, would have hit the back of the tunnel? 

Golfman25 posted:

old_school posted:

Some interesting team stats from the SEC web site...I assume they have quite a few fairly solid hitters there who job description is to mash...I hope the sarcasm is clear!!

Missouri - AB's - 1126 Extra base hits - 99

S Carolina AB- 1097 EX hits 87

Tenn - 1056 and 81

A&M 1187 and 106

Vandy 1157 and 95

Bama 1076 and 87

Ark - 1166 99

Auburn 1146 and 90

Florida 1083 and 76

GA 1133 and 84

Kentucky 1115 and 117

LSU 1150 and 96

Ole' Miss - 1060 and 75

MSU 1187 and 109

less then 10% of AB's are hits are for extra bases...but you can find "loads" and "tons" of 14u's who are driving it deep - those dumb asses in the SEC should really start recruiting better...again I hope the sarcasm is clear!

 

So how many of those extra base hits, would have hit the back of the tunnel? 

I think the more intriguing question, if we're gonna get anywhere with this, is how many of those were hit with intent to lift and how many were hit with line drive intent.  I'm guessing plenty of both.  And add in some variances like "hit it hard", "hit it where it's pitched", "see ball, hit ball", "mash", "think middle and react", "look fastball and attack", "look away, stay back and drill the gap", "if he hangs it, bang it", etc.

At the end of the day, there are more than one approaches that can be successful.  I also think the discussion would be more interesting if we addressed an earlier question more specifically, and that is "what are the absolutes?".

old_school posted:

2020dad posted:

 

how bout here.  There are tons of 14's who can hit the ball 350-400. Let's just take the low end of that. 350 feet is 90mph of exit velo.  That translates to about low to mid 80's off the tee. Look at showcase results.  There are a good number of kids who can do that. And in the states that allow hot bats for 14u there are certainly lots and lots.  If we want to talk 15u/freshman I won't say it is commonplace but it certainly isn't rare.  And I would guess at least half of anything decent travel team can achieve that. 

this is a key point, there aren't "tons of 14's" who can do this...your next sentence is "if you want to talk 15u I won't say it is commonplace" you can't have it both ways.

the 14u kid hitting bombs with a balloon bat doesn't sudden get worse over the winter before 15u - he is now using a big boy bat. When you graduate to the real bats you will learn that the math you are so proud of doesn't apply...

Even if the kids are able to generate the EV numbers that you are quoting off a T that just shows how tough it is to square it up. Based on your comments and the numbers you are using the HR and over all power numbers for HS and college should be WAY WAY higher then they are...it is either much tougher then you think or the whole world is stupid.

I realize it is possible that your math is correct and you are just the smartest guy in the room! Real world variables apply, the data doesn't back up the math at the younger levels below college or at a minimum Varsity ball and I am one of the guys who kind of agrees with you!!

 

Old school...  a little surprised at your tone. We have disagreed before but usually are able to come to some sort of agreement by the time we are done.  So let's try that again.  You are absolutely correct it's really hard in game. The pitcher by the way is bound and determined to get you out.  You might see one mistake per at bat if you are lucky.  You can't miss it.  But just because it's hard doesn't mean we give up!  Still have to try to be the most productive hitter possible. And in the long run squaring it up is a skill some may never acquire.  

And I wouldn't say the whole world is stupid but a lot of it is. The numbers I am so proud of are real.  The stubbornness of a lot of coaches who refuse to accept those are real. There are lots (is that better than tons?) of 14's that are CAPABLE of reaching those velocities.  And BBCOR does in fact change careers.  

And a big part of the lack of home tuns is the coaching to geound ball swings!!!  And of course the pitcher - let's give them hurlers some well deserved credit.  It's their job to put the ball where a hitter can't crush it. If a MLB player goes to the dish 600 times and fails to hit a home run 560 times he's had a great power year!

2019Dad posted:

Coach_May posted:

I hesitate to post on hitting threads. Hitting threads can be so, well I can't even find the words to describe it. I guess it goes back to all the threads on rotational, linear etc etc.

 Some kids are simply born with the ability to time it up. Some are simply born with the ability to barrel the baseball consistently. Some have a natural swing path and many do not. It is a lot like throwing motions. Some are born with a natural ability to throw. It just flows. No one had to teach them it's natural to them. Some have to be taught and trained to do what comes natural to others.

I believe the best swing path is the one that gets you in the zone the quickest, allows you to stay in the zone the longest, gets there with a slight uppercut, and is on time. BP for hitters is easy. It's quite honestly an ability to reproduce that sweet swing over and over. Almost every pitch is barreled up hit with authority. The vast majority of the balls hit are either line drives or deep fly balls. Ground balls are smoked but rare.

The ground ball has been taught for years at the HS level. Your dealing with a wide variety of skill levels. Your dumbing down is what your doing. You don't take the time to teach individuals you cookie cutter approach it. The theory was created in order to give your team a better opportunity to win at the expense of the actual development of your players. This is how it was explained to me when I first started coaching at the HS level.

Fly Ball - It takes one player making one play to record an out. Most players are incapable of leaving the yard. Fly balls result in outs the vast majority of the time.

Ground Balls - It has to be hit where a fielder can actually get to it. He has to field it cleanly. He has to make an accurate throw. It has to get there in time. Someone has to catch it - to record an out.

So the more ground balls we hit the better opportunity we have to win the game.

So what happens is coaches are teaching hitters to swing down on the ball in order to create more ground balls. Probably giving some hitters a better opportunity to reach base. Probably winning more games. And definitely hindering the development of hitters greatly.

I believe as a coach your job is to develop your players to the best of your ability. Ultimately giving your team the best opportunity to have success at the same time giving your players the best opportunity to have success. I believe you should coach up to the highest level not down to the lowest. I believe your goal should be that every player play at the highest level they can achieve. In other words when your coaching Pre HS players you should be preparing them for HS baseball. When your coaching HS players you should be preparing them for college baseball. Etc etc.

I don't believe you do that by sacrificing their development as players for the sake of winning a game today. The fact is you will win more games today by preparing them for tomorrow.

Hitting for me is about mashing the baseball. Hitting it as far and as hard as you are physically capable of. Developing a swing path that you can repeat with ease over and over again and take to the game with confidence. I never liked BP in the cage. I used the cage for drills. I believe in hitting live on field. I want the player to get that feedback now. I want that feedback now. When players understand launch angle and get that feedback they can see, they learn how to make the needed adjustments. They at the least can relate to what you are trying to teach them.

I understand some kids are not strong enough entering HS to have the success with this approach that they are used to at the younger levels. That bomb at 13 14u is now a routine fly ball on the HS field. Now that is a fact for many. That 300' fence is now 375' 400'. But as they get stronger it all works out. Do you dumb them down to get on base and when they get stronger change their swing to accommodate the new found strength? No of course not. We teach mechanics to produce the absolute most velo we can get and continue to push the limits on creating more and more velo. You will never throw it too hard. Then why don't we do the same with hitting? Do we say "Don't try and throw hard. Don't work for more velo. Just fool them. Then why do we tell hitters to simply settle for GB's because it will help us win?

Of course just because you work to create a swing that produces lift and power doesn't mean you won't still produce some GB's. It's just not the goal. But maybe those GB's will be freaking worm burners you just missed? I don't have all the answers but I believe hitting should be fun and it should be MAXED out in the same way VELO is maxed out. Get all you can and you never have enough.

 

 

This is the greatest post on hitting that I have read on HSBBW. I nominate this for a golden post.

That's certainly a post I can get on board with.  In fact that's pretty much what I have been saying.  Just because its hard to actually do in game doesn't mean you don't try to develop that ability!

2020dad posted:

old_school posted:

2020dad posted:

 

how bout here.  There are tons of 14's who can hit the ball 350-400. Let's just take the low end of that. 350 feet is 90mph of exit velo.  That translates to about low to mid 80's off the tee. Look at showcase results.  There are a good number of kids who can do that. And in the states that allow hot bats for 14u there are certainly lots and lots.  If we want to talk 15u/freshman I won't say it is commonplace but it certainly isn't rare.  And I would guess at least half of anything decent travel team can achieve that. 

this is a key point, there aren't "tons of 14's" who can do this...your next sentence is "if you want to talk 15u I won't say it is commonplace" you can't have it both ways.

the 14u kid hitting bombs with a balloon bat doesn't sudden get worse over the winter before 15u - he is now using a big boy bat. When you graduate to the real bats you will learn that the math you are so proud of doesn't apply...

Even if the kids are able to generate the EV numbers that you are quoting off a T that just shows how tough it is to square it up. Based on your comments and the numbers you are using the HR and over all power numbers for HS and college should be WAY WAY higher then they are...it is either much tougher then you think or the whole world is stupid.

I realize it is possible that your math is correct and you are just the smartest guy in the room! Real world variables apply, the data doesn't back up the math at the younger levels below college or at a minimum Varsity ball and I am one of the guys who kind of agrees with you!!

 

Old school...  a little surprised at your tone. We have disagreed before but usually are able to come to some sort of agreement by the time we are done.  So let's try that again.  You are absolutely correct it's really hard in game. The pitcher by the way is bound and determined to get you out.  You might see one mistake per at bat if you are lucky.  You can't miss it.  But just because it's hard doesn't mean we give up!  Still have to try to be the most productive hitter possible. And in the long run squaring it up is a skill some may never acquire.  

And I wouldn't say the whole world is stupid but a lot of it is. The numbers I am so proud of are real.  The stubbornness of a lot of coaches who refuse to accept those are real. There are lots (is that better than tons?) of 14's that are CAPABLE of reaching those velocities.  And BBCOR does in fact change careers.  

And a big part of the lack of home tuns is the coaching to geound ball swings!!!  And of course the pitcher - let's give them hurlers some well deserved credit.  It's their job to put the ball where a hitter can't crush it. If a MLB player goes to the dish 600 times and fails to hit a home run 560 times he's had a great power year!

LOL - ok the bolded and blue I can totally agree with! my wife actually gets mad at me because until proven different I assume I know better!! Maybe it is character flaw but soooo many people lack the ability to use logic...well anyway.

I apologize if I am being a bit rough, am dealing with a few issues at work, yes I do actually have a job that occasionally gets in the way of baseball and golf, I haven't been in the best of moods here in the office lately. 90% of my internet time comes in the office...I do apologize for being short tempered!

old_school posted:

Some interesting team stats from the SEC web site...I assume they have quite a few fairly solid hitters there who job description is to mash...I hope the sarcasm is clear!!

Missouri - AB's - 1126 Extra base hits - 99

S Carolina AB- 1097 EX hits 87

Tenn - 1056 and 81

A&M 1187 and 106

Vandy 1157 and 95

Bama 1076 and 87

Ark - 1166 99

Auburn 1146 and 90

Florida 1083 and 76

GA 1133 and 84

Kentucky 1115 and 117

LSU 1150 and 96

Ole' Miss - 1060 and 75

MSU 1187 and 109

less then 10% of AB's are hits are for extra bases...but you can find "loads" and "tons" of 14u's who are driving it deep - those dumb asses in the SEC should really start recruiting better...again I hope the sarcasm is clear!

 

Jeez...  this is frustrating.  Here is my direct quote:

There are tons of 14's who can hit the ball 350-400. Let's just take the low end of that. 350 feet is 90mph of exit velo. That translates to about low to mid 80's off the tee. Look at showcase results. There are a good number of kids who can do that

WHO CAN being key here.  The raw ability to do so.  It has to be developed to show up occasionally in game. At no point in time ever did I even remotely suggest there are 14's by the ton hitting 400 foot home runs IN GAME left and right.  Never 

By the way do they have any good pitchers in the SEC?  Whose job it is to keep the hitters from elevating? I hope my sarcasm is clear. 

2020dad posted:

old_school posted:

Some interesting team stats from the SEC web site...I assume they have quite a few fairly solid hitters there who job description is to mash...I hope the sarcasm is clear!!

Missouri - AB's - 1126 Extra base hits - 99

S Carolina AB- 1097 EX hits 87

Tenn - 1056 and 81

A&M 1187 and 106

Vandy 1157 and 95

Bama 1076 and 87

Ark - 1166 99

Auburn 1146 and 90

Florida 1083 and 76

GA 1133 and 84

Kentucky 1115 and 117

LSU 1150 and 96

Ole' Miss - 1060 and 75

MSU 1187 and 109

less then 10% of AB's are hits are for extra bases...but you can find "loads" and "tons" of 14u's who are driving it deep - those dumb asses in the SEC should really start recruiting better...again I hope the sarcasm is clear!

 

Jeez...  this is frustrating.  Here is my direct quote:

There are tons of 14's who can hit the ball 350-400. Let's just take the low end of that. 350 feet is 90mph of exit velo. That translates to about low to mid 80's off the tee. Look at showcase results. There are a good number of kids who can do that

WHO CAN being key here.  The raw ability to do so.  It has to be developed to show up occasionally in game. At no point in time ever did I even remotely suggest there are 14's by the ton hitting 400 foot home runs IN GAME left and right.  Never 

By the way do they have any good pitchers in the SEC?  Whose job it is to keep the hitters from elevating? I hope my sarcasm is clear. 

I think it's arguing semantics here. The definition of CAN is at the heart of it. I'll accept your idea the 90 mph of exit velo = 350', although I've never looked into it. My point would be that mid-80s off of a tee doesn't mean you CAN hit a pitched ball any certain distance. I have big, strong football players at my school who could likely square a ball up off of a tee at 90+ mph, but would struggle to make contact in BP. 

If your argument it that a lot of 14 yo can achieve 85+ mph off of a tee I don't think I would argue that (although again, I don't know a lot of numbers for 14 yo exit velocity). But to me does not mean they can hit a pitched ball 400', and I don't believe its due to how the swing plane is coached. Same way the track kid who can run an 11.00 100m CAN still a lot of bases, but in reality gets picked off 75% of the time. 

ironhorse posted:

2020dad posted:

old_school posted:

Some interesting team stats from the SEC web site...I assume they have quite a few fairly solid hitters there who job description is to mash...I hope the sarcasm is clear!!

Missouri - AB's - 1126 Extra base hits - 99

S Carolina AB- 1097 EX hits 87

Tenn - 1056 and 81

A&M 1187 and 106

Vandy 1157 and 95

Bama 1076 and 87

Ark - 1166 99

Auburn 1146 and 90

Florida 1083 and 76

GA 1133 and 84

Kentucky 1115 and 117

LSU 1150 and 96

Ole' Miss - 1060 and 75

MSU 1187 and 109

less then 10% of AB's are hits are for extra bases...but you can find "loads" and "tons" of 14u's who are driving it deep - those dumb asses in the SEC should really start recruiting better...again I hope the sarcasm is clear!

 

Jeez...  this is frustrating.  Here is my direct quote:

There are tons of 14's who can hit the ball 350-400. Let's just take the low end of that. 350 feet is 90mph of exit velo. That translates to about low to mid 80's off the tee. Look at showcase results. There are a good number of kids who can do that

WHO CAN being key here.  The raw ability to do so.  It has to be developed to show up occasionally in game. At no point in time ever did I even remotely suggest there are 14's by the ton hitting 400 foot home runs IN GAME left and right.  Never 

By the way do they have any good pitchers in the SEC?  Whose job it is to keep the hitters from elevating? I hope my sarcasm is clear. 

I think it's arguing semantics here. The definition of CAN is at the heart of it. I'll accept your idea the 90 mph of exit velo = 350', although I've never looked into it. My point would be that mid-80s off of a tee doesn't mean you CAN hit a pitched ball any certain distance. I have big, strong football players at my school who could likely square a ball up off of a tee at 90+ mph, but would struggle to make contact in BP. 

If your argument it that a lot of 14 yo can achieve 85+ mph off of a tee I don't think I would argue that (although again, I don't know a lot of numbers for 14 yo exit velocity). But to me does not mean they can hit a pitched ball 400', and I don't believe its due to how the swing plane is coached. Same way the track kid who can run an 11.00 100m CAN still a lot of bases, but in reality gets picked off 75% of the time. 

 

But the CAN.  I don't disagree with the spirit of what you are saying though. So that's the key - you have the ability or would the word potential work better for you guys?  Now the question is can you carry it over to the game. And that my friend is the key.  That is why we have to work to groove that swing and smooth it out. And then accept some just will never be good enough. 

old_school posted:

2020dad posted:

old_school posted:

2020dad posted:

 

how bout here.  There are tons of 14's who can hit the ball 350-400. Let's just take the low end of that. 350 feet is 90mph of exit velo.  That translates to about low to mid 80's off the tee. Look at showcase results.  There are a good number of kids who can do that. And in the states that allow hot bats for 14u there are certainly lots and lots.  If we want to talk 15u/freshman I won't say it is commonplace but it certainly isn't rare.  And I would guess at least half of anything decent travel team can achieve that. 

this is a key point, there aren't "tons of 14's" who can do this...your next sentence is "if you want to talk 15u I won't say it is commonplace" you can't have it both ways.

the 14u kid hitting bombs with a balloon bat doesn't sudden get worse over the winter before 15u - he is now using a big boy bat. When you graduate to the real bats you will learn that the math you are so proud of doesn't apply...

Even if the kids are able to generate the EV numbers that you are quoting off a T that just shows how tough it is to square it up. Based on your comments and the numbers you are using the HR and over all power numbers for HS and college should be WAY WAY higher then they are...it is either much tougher then you think or the whole world is stupid.

I realize it is possible that your math is correct and you are just the smartest guy in the room! Real world variables apply, the data doesn't back up the math at the younger levels below college or at a minimum Varsity ball and I am one of the guys who kind of agrees with you!!

 

Old school...  a little surprised at your tone. We have disagreed before but usually are able to come to some sort of agreement by the time we are done.  So let's try that again.  You are absolutely correct it's really hard in game. The pitcher by the way is bound and determined to get you out.  You might see one mistake per at bat if you are lucky.  You can't miss it.  But just because it's hard doesn't mean we give up!  Still have to try to be the most productive hitter possible. And in the long run squaring it up is a skill some may never acquire.  

And I wouldn't say the whole world is stupid but a lot of it is. The numbers I am so proud of are real.  The stubbornness of a lot of coaches who refuse to accept those are real. There are lots (is that better than tons?) of 14's that are CAPABLE of reaching those velocities.  And BBCOR does in fact change careers.  

And a big part of the lack of home tuns is the coaching to geound ball swings!!!  And of course the pitcher - let's give them hurlers some well deserved credit.  It's their job to put the ball where a hitter can't crush it. If a MLB player goes to the dish 600 times and fails to hit a home run 560 times he's had a great power year!

LOL - ok the bolded and blue I can totally agree with! my wife actually gets mad at me because until proven different I assume I know better!! Maybe it is character flaw but soooo many people lack the ability to use logic...well anyway.

I apologize if I am being a bit rough, am dealing with a few issues at work, yes I do actually have a job that occasionally gets in the way of baseball and golf, I haven't been in the best of moods here in the office lately. 90% of my internet time comes in the office...I do apologize for being short tempered!

Ok we're good.  And I could have resisted the sarcasm comment.  In the long run I think we are saying mostly the same thing.  That in game everything becomes a million times harder. 

3and2Fastball posted:

Hitting behind a runner to move a player over, especially with 2 strikes and less than 2 outs and a runner on second, is not a thing of the past, especially at the HS, college, and most of MiLB levels!!!!

Preparing a kid for MLB before they ever even play Varsity HS is one of those things that drives coaches crazy about the current generation of players/parents.

Who said anything about preparing for MLB??  See people just throw these things out there as if someone actually did it. I am 90% sure my son will never hit beyond high school.  I still want him to have as good a high school career as possible.  The MLB swing is the swing for ALL ages

Never been a fan of hitting in the cages (obviously it is necessary sometimes, we're in Ohio).  I threw to my son on a field as much as possible when he was growing up....whether it was on a 280' fence when he was 12-14 or on the HS field when he was 15U and up.  As someone said earlier, you get a "visual" that you can't get in the cage....even if you mark the cage somehow.  I would call every ball he hit.....and out or a hit.  Sometimes he didn't like it "center fielder made a diving grab"   but I really do think it made him a better hitter.  In the cage, he would just swing as hard as he could....and have no idea where the ball would have gone.  On a field, he would strive to get 10 straight hits before making an out.  He was never big also had the power to put 5 or 6 straight over the fence on the HS field if he hit it good....but realized that a lot of times trying to go for the fence was just him long fly outs.  He would hit plenty of HR's but in most cases they were the result of a good swing.  He hit 4 HR's his senior year....I really think all the BP we took on the field the summer before was a big part of it

Although not completely relevant, the #2 theory kind of lines up with Coach May's post.

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/...ites-taking-baseball

We have a great hitting Juco team that doesn't use a cage/machine.  They go from hitting off a tee into a mat, to front (behind screen) toss at 10ft (simulates a fastball), to live BP from 46ft.  All of them have a MLB swing.  I personally don't know any coaches who teaches hitting ground balls.  On our season so far, only 2 or 3 hits have been from ground balls.  Everything else are line drives to the gaps and bloopers over the IF.  

another interesting article

http://rocklandpeakperformance...elos-what-need-know/

you could conclude that softer hitters between 80 and 90 (probably 75 to 85 with HS OF depths)  are best served hitting at 5 to 15 degrees and harder hitters at 90+ would be best served hitting at 20 to 30.

the middle of that (20) is actually not all that great for softer hitters (the donut hole) because it tends to get caught more often unless really hard or really soft.

but then again who can control it that well? 

the article also shows that in MLB you need to hit it really hard to get GB hits. at -5 degrees you need to hit it 95+ to get to a .400 average which is very hard. hit those at 85 and you are always out. so basically more exit velo gives you a higher launch angle range in both the sharp grounder and donut hole range. if you don't have the power you need to be more precise with your LA and you cover a smaller LA range. that does not mean LA does not matter at higher EVs though. a 100 MPH grounder is a hit in MLB quite often but you don't produce extra bases. that is not terrible if you defend like kevin kiermeier but if you are a first baseman (those big players produce the most 100+ hits) you basically take away your only way of contributing positively on the baseball field.

for example eric hosmer is a grounder machine who hits it really hard. he isn't a bad hitter, due to his strength he still gets his hits and 20 bombs that he misses under but he is not producing well for a 1b and only an average player. so he gets away with his non mastering of launch angle somewhat and still is a slightly above average hitter but he is not as good as he could be.

there is of course also the other extreme. billy hamilton has an average launch angle of 18 degrees this year. that actually is not bad but his average EV is one of the lowest in the majors at 80. that probably means the OF plays him shallower taking away the bloopers so that he basically has a lot of donut hole flyouts at 20-30 degrees.

he probably would be better off to lower his LA a little to 5 to 15. of course that wouldnt make him a good hitter either because he not only hits the ball soft but also strikes 100 times a year, which is not bad in these days but too much if your average EV is 80 and you hit 3 HRs a year.

Dominik85 posted:

another interesting article

http://rocklandpeakperformance...elos-what-need-know/

you could conclude that softer hitters between 80 and 90 (probably 75 to 85 with HS OF depths)  are best served hitting at 5 to 15 degrees and harder hitters at 90+ would be best served hitting at 20 to 30.

the middle of that (20) is actually not all that great for softer hitters (the donut hole) because it tends to get caught more often unless really hard or really soft.

but then again who can control it that well? 

the article also shows that in MLB you need to hit it really hard to get GB hits. at -5 degrees you need to hit it 95+ to get to a .400 average which is very hard. hit those at 85 and you are always out. so basically more exit velo gives you a higher launch angle range in both the sharp grounder and donut hole range. if you don't have the power you need to be more precise with your LA and you cover a smaller LA range. that does not mean LA does not matter at higher EVs though. a 100 MPH grounder is a hit in MLB quite often but you don't produce extra bases. that is not terrible if you defend like kevin kiermeier but if you are a first baseman (those big players produce the most 100+ hits) you basically take away your only way of contributing positively on the baseball field.

for example eric hosmer is a grounder machine who hits it really hard. he isn't a bad hitter, due to his strength he still gets his hits and 20 bombs that he misses under but he is not producing well for a 1b and only an average player. so he gets away with his non mastering of launch angle somewhat and still is a slightly above average hitter but he is not as good as he could be.

there is of course also the other extreme. billy hamilton has an average launch angle of 18 degrees this year. that actually is not bad but his average EV is one of the lowest in the majors at 80. that probably means the OF plays him shallower taking away the bloopers so that he basically has a lot of donut hole flyouts at 20-30 degrees.

 

he probably would be better off to lower his LA a little to 5 to 15. of course that wouldnt make him a good hitter either because he not only hits the ball soft but also strikes 100 times a year, which is not bad in these days but too much if your average EV is 80 and you hit 3 HRs a year.

Good insight.  I will remind that no one in this thread/discussion has ever suggested a negative LA (ground ball).  I know I don't need to tell you that but trying to keep any healthy debate in context for other(s).  

I will challenge your interpretation of the chart, however.  It appears to me that your exit velo would need to be 100+, not 90+, before a launch angle over 18% is advantageous.  That probably eliminates 98% of HS players.  And you have to be realistic about what they "potentially can" do and what they realistically can do.  So, this chart would imply to me that HS players, except the very rare few, will get optimal results at 5 - 18 degrees.

I took particular interest in the Hosmer reference.  A grounder machine.  I would love to hear his take on what his INTENDED launch angle is.  I'm willing to bet that, most often, it is not negative/GB's.  Again, my point is that the resulting statistical data is not necessarily directly correlated to the intent or the teach.  Many MLB players who hit their share of HR's don't hit with the intent of 20-30 degree lift.  They try to drive the ball hard and very slight misses under the ball but barreled leave the yard while very slight misses over the ball are hard ground balls.

To further illustrate my point...

Another interesting stat from the charts - hitters with 100+ exit velo are better off at 10 degrees than 15-20 degrees.  Then, things improve again at 25 degrees.  So are hitters/hitting coaches using the data and trying to hit at either 10 degrees or 25 degrees but not in between?  Don't think so.

When you get to 100+ you have to consider extra base hits. The average is probably better with 15 degrees but slugging gets better with higher LAs.

If you are below 90 getting on base is probably the better bet than extra base hits but at 95+ the role of slugging gets higher.

I'm bumping my old thread because there was a Topic about how the Launch angles translate to lower Exit velos.

I wrote a Little article subsetting different velos for Launch angle ranges and production Output (wOBA). for comparison average wOBA is around .330 so you can see which LA combinations are successfull and which not.

https://www.fangraphs.com/comm...ty-and-launch-angle/

What is interesting that in MLB very soft (below 80) and medium hard hit balls are not really different in production.

below 80 mph league wOBA is .265, 80-87 (87 is MLB average EV) the wOBA is .185 and 87-94 it is .215. So in MLB 71 MPH or 91 doesn't really make a big difference  (both are mostly Outs unless hit at very specific angles). Then at 95-100 you get to .380 and then above 100 it really takes off.

Grounders at low and medium EV are both not very effective. I devided chopped grounders (below minus 10) and "line drive grounders" (basically one hoppers from minus 10 to plus 5). The chopped grounders are always below average and for the flatter grounders you Need to hit it at 95+ to gain above average production (385).

5 to 20 degrees are effective at all EVs, but at EVs below 95 there is a sharp drop in production above 20 degrees (unless in the super soft category- i.e. bloopers). For example at 97-94 the wOBA at 25-30 is just .215 (worse than the line drive grounders).

At higher velos that changes, 95-100 remains effective till about mid 30s and at 100+ you are effective till almost 45 degrees.

That would mean for average HS Players who hit 70-80 off the tee (you can add about 100 MPH to that against live pitching on a well hit ball and probably get similar results in average EV because in MLB top Exit Velo is also about 15-20 mph higher than average Velo ) it is probably best to hit the ball between 5 and 20 degrees.

In case somebody cares, I have written a little series this year based on my statcast research:

https://www.fangraphs.com/comm...mized-not-maximized/

https://www.fangraphs.com/comm...ptimum-launch-angle/

https://www.fangraphs.com/comm...ving-a-contact-cost/

https://www.fangraphs.com/comm...aunch-angle-profile/

https://www.fangraphs.com/comm...ty-and-launch-angle/