What do these planes look like?......
Troy, can you explain the plane of a 12 to 6 curveball?.....And, a fastball riding away from a hitter?....
What do these planes look like?......
What do these planes look like?......
"and posture IS dictated by the BATTER.. he matches planes by hinging on back leg (slightly sitting on back leg) which changes plane of swing,...."
"The slotting of the front elbow is the key to matching plane of swing to plane of pitch..."
Diablo, so you are now saying sitting on the back leg does not set swing plane?......Slotting the front elbow does?...
Is this because the video proved you to be wrong?.....It also proved you wrong on your front elbow slotting comments...What will you say sets swing plane next?......
"The slotting of the front elbow is the key to matching plane of swing to plane of pitch..."
Diablo, so you are now saying sitting on the back leg does not set swing plane?......Slotting the front elbow does?...
Is this because the video proved you to be wrong?.....It also proved you wrong on your front elbow slotting comments...What will you say sets swing plane next?......
They hate that video, Blue Dog.
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:quote:I am talking about the pitch in general (not each individual pitch).
Troy, what the heck is a pitch in general?.....You complain about Info not answering your questions....He is answering your questions, but you don't understand what he is saying....Your mind is closed with Epstein theory.....Alot of flaws in what he teaches.....
First, my mind is completely open....I'd never heard of rotational hitting until IP referred me to Mankin many years ago. all I'm doing is asking questions....I really want to know what you think. As far as swing plane let me see if I can make it clearer. When I say "pitch in general" I am talking about the general downward plane between the pitchers hand and the catchers glove. I don't think anyone here thinks you should try to match the 12-6 drop of a cb, and I think you know that. The only purpose of that kind post is to try to make others feel afraid to converse with you. It won't work with me because I know I don't know it all.
I am very interested in what IP has said in the past... i'd like to understand your appraoch also... Please educate me.... I've found very little of use in this thread from either of you.... Usually I find some good info that makes me question my approach...nothing today, except what you don't like ...thats not helpful to me... but i'll keep reading in case you slip and offer usable info.
What would be nice from both of you (IP and BD) is a bunch of sentences that start with "the hitter should" . Maybe not as amusing as ripping what others post, but it might help me help my boys hit better which is why I'm here. Thanks in advance
Troy, you mustn't talk in general terms when discussing hitting.....
The fact is, pitches do not have swing planes....You just can't say some do and some don't......
And, MLB hitters do not sit on their back leg at ball contact.....Weathervaning doesn't exist in the MLB swing and neither does counter-rotation....
MLB hitters swing at a point in space where they think the bat will collide with the ball.....They let their posture dictate the swing plane.....They build batspeed early in the forward swing and release everything at ball contact like an explosion.....What's leftover is swing momentum, not batspeed.....
Instead of sitting on the back leg (collapsing the backside), MLB hitters shift their weight forward to produce momentum.....The front leg becomes the axis of rotation....
They do not slot their elbows......They connect the hands and arms to the shoulders and rotate to the ball.....Not through the ball, but to the ball.....
The fact is, pitches do not have swing planes....You just can't say some do and some don't......
And, MLB hitters do not sit on their back leg at ball contact.....Weathervaning doesn't exist in the MLB swing and neither does counter-rotation....
MLB hitters swing at a point in space where they think the bat will collide with the ball.....They let their posture dictate the swing plane.....They build batspeed early in the forward swing and release everything at ball contact like an explosion.....What's leftover is swing momentum, not batspeed.....
Instead of sitting on the back leg (collapsing the backside), MLB hitters shift their weight forward to produce momentum.....The front leg becomes the axis of rotation....
They do not slot their elbows......They connect the hands and arms to the shoulders and rotate to the ball.....Not through the ball, but to the ball.....
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
MLB hitters swing at a point in space where they think the bat will collide with the ball.....They let their posture dictate the swing plane.....They build batspeed early in the forward swing and release everything at ball contact like an explosion.....What's leftover is swing momentum, not batspeed.....
Instead of sitting on the back leg (collapsing the backside), MLB hitters shift their weight forward to produce momentum.....The front leg becomes the axis of rotation...
Interesting....First question.... When I put a drag line (Rightview Pro) thru A-Rod's head at toe touch, how does he shift his weight from back to front with absolutely no head movement.? When I watch and watch and watch, what I see is 50/50 wgt dist at toe touch thru contact. What am I not seeing? ..... How much weight are we moving forward??
I am serious about the questions and I have many more. Thanks for your time.
Troy, I'm beginning to wonder if you're serious......
The weight shift has already happened when the front foot plants.....
The weight shift has already happened when the front foot plants.....
Can you not see a weight shift in this clip?
http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/thomas_frank.mpeg
And, no torque position or counter-rotation....
http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/thomas_frank.mpeg
And, no torque position or counter-rotation....
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
Troy, I'm beginning to wonder if you're serious......
The weight shift has already happened when the front foot plants.....
okay??? so what is the approx dist. after foot plant.... ???
that is good BlueDog... now we are getting somwhere... i think we are begining to meet in thoughts... first off, if i ever said that all players SIT ON BACK LEG AT POINT OF CONTACT, i mis-typed... what i said everywhere i went back to look, was that in the approach phase of swing, once palms get flat, back knee is already "hinging" (that is just flexion in the leg) - hinging is not necessarily only happening while player is on his back leg... maybe that is where i am being confusing...
now, you said that POSTURE dictates swing plane..HOW? There has to be something all players do that allow them to get there posture to a position to be successful in their swing.. what is it that they are doing.. and surly we agree it can not be identical in all of that players swings... because the ball comes through zone at different locations for each pitch. So players must be able to make some sort of on-the-fly adjustment... what part of their body makes the adjustment ( i know posture), but what in the players swing changes his posture... i mean what changes the angle or degree to which they get their body posture in to? in other words (if i am being confusing) what does a player do with what part of his body to get the angle he wants for his swing plane?
and also if elbows are never slotted for pitch plane (trajectory ball is coming to batter).. then the elbows of each individual player is in the same spot for each pitch - whether it is up and in or low and away??... if lead elbow doesn't slot for pitches it should never have to move from swing to swing - why would it right. you are saying there is no relationship between lead elbow and swing plane, right?
help me here dog.
now, you said that POSTURE dictates swing plane..HOW? There has to be something all players do that allow them to get there posture to a position to be successful in their swing.. what is it that they are doing.. and surly we agree it can not be identical in all of that players swings... because the ball comes through zone at different locations for each pitch. So players must be able to make some sort of on-the-fly adjustment... what part of their body makes the adjustment ( i know posture), but what in the players swing changes his posture... i mean what changes the angle or degree to which they get their body posture in to? in other words (if i am being confusing) what does a player do with what part of his body to get the angle he wants for his swing plane?
and also if elbows are never slotted for pitch plane (trajectory ball is coming to batter).. then the elbows of each individual player is in the same spot for each pitch - whether it is up and in or low and away??... if lead elbow doesn't slot for pitches it should never have to move from swing to swing - why would it right. you are saying there is no relationship between lead elbow and swing plane, right?
help me here dog.
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
Can you not see a weight shift in this clip?
http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/thomas_frank.mpeg
And, no torque position or counter-rotation....
before toe-touch I see weight shift...never have thought otherwise.
Counter-rotation has never been a description i have used. Although our BI does recommend a small "load" it is in the hips only. ...I think I see it in many MLB clips.... I'm ducking waiting for response
You say the back knee hinges or flexes as if it is a part of the mechanics of a high level swing.
It is not. The legs do little more than provide a stable base from which the pelvis can work.
Whatever the leg does is a result of the hips doing what they do.
It is not. The legs do little more than provide a stable base from which the pelvis can work.
Whatever the leg does is a result of the hips doing what they do.
quote:...now, you said that POSTURE dictates swing plane..HOW? There has to be something all players do that allow them to get there posture to a position to be successful in their swing.. what is it that they are doing.. and surly we agree it can not be identical in all of that players swings... because the ball comes through zone at different locations for each pitch. So players must be able to make some sort of on-the-fly adjustment... what part of their body makes the adjustment ( i know posture), but what in the players swing changes his posture... i mean what changes the angle or degree to which they get their body posture in to? in other words (if i am being confusing) what does a player do with what part of his body to get the angle he wants for his swing plane?
You've got a lot to unlearn Diablo.
The posture changes by the amount of bend at the waist for the most part.
quote:...and also if elbows are never slotted for pitch plane (trajectory ball is coming to batter).. then the elbows of each individual player is in the same spot for each pitch - whether it is up and in or low and away??... if lead elbow doesn't slot for pitches it should never have to move from swing to swing - why would it right. you are saying there is no relationship between lead elbow and swing plane, right?
help me here dog.
The lead upper arm is perpendicular to the spine, which is tilted over the plate. Unless last minute adjustments are necessary (fooled by pitch speed or location)it will remain in that position, relative to the upper body on all pitch locations.
It can remain in the same position due to posture adjustments. More bend. Less bend. Depending on pitch location.
Any questions?
Perpendicular it is! That is incredible video illustration. GREAT stuff. Keep it coming.
So....lets start with simple. I teach my boys a no-stride swing. They are taught to be 50/50. They load (very minor looking move) the hips, as they see the ball in pitchers hand. This move results in the front foot coming up slightly off the heel. At the time of commitment the hips lead (explosively) the shoulders (hands). The back elbow stays close to the body unless they are fooled. (teach them it is like a punch). Work hard to keep the arms from casting out. This is the most common repeated flaw.
Now I know you'll hate this but we also teach them to hit thru the ball (3 balls for the young ones). I understand why you don't like this....Question... for less than MLB caliber hitters...do you see no value in "staying thru the zone" a little to compensate for slightly poor timing?
What happens in your model if we are going to that specific point in space but your timing is off just a little?
Am i ruining these guys?
Now I know you'll hate this but we also teach them to hit thru the ball (3 balls for the young ones). I understand why you don't like this....Question... for less than MLB caliber hitters...do you see no value in "staying thru the zone" a little to compensate for slightly poor timing?
What happens in your model if we are going to that specific point in space but your timing is off just a little?
Am i ruining these guys?
Info, do you think Diablo is capable of unlearning?......
Kind of disproves weathervaning, eh?
So....we've killed counter-rotation. We've killed leg hinging. We've killed weathervaning. We've killed heel drop starting the swing. We've killed torque.
What good is he?
He's real good at the mental side of hitting.
So....we've killed counter-rotation. We've killed leg hinging. We've killed weathervaning. We've killed heel drop starting the swing. We've killed torque.
What good is he?
He's real good at the mental side of hitting.
