Matching the plane?????

quote:

Originally posted by jojab:

Troy99,

Go back to the Glaus clip. Download it and then play it back in something you can pause to go frame-by-frame (i.e, Quicktime). Notice his spine angles are identical before the pitches (first frame). Then forward it to the frame where the balls are colored orange. Notice how with the high pitch his spine is more vertical? Now go to the lowest pitch and notice how his spine angle is tilted the most?

If you stop and think about this, it is very logical. High level swings are driven from the core so it is logical that the adjustments from pitches high to low are also driven from the core. If they weren't, you'd get disconnected in a hurry (i.e., imagine what would happen if you were tilted down for a low pitch but it came in high so you stayed tilted down but then raised your hands to find the ball...conversely what would your swing look like with a little tilt and you get a low pitch but instead of adjusting your tilt you took your hands to the ball...again that is a disconnected swing).

Joe

Ok ...thanks will absorb this awhile. If you get a minute answer questions above about how MLB hitters got here. Interested in if they realize what they are doing (with regard to spine angle) in your opinion. Is this all just a by-product of great reflexes etc.

Joe,

That was excellent and I totally agree, exactly.

A good example of a hitter becoming disconnected would be if swing has started even though slider is moving away from hitter(RHP to RHH). Hitter will sometimes reach for pitch and spine collapses and just wave at ball in desperation in attempt to not miss ball completely. Swing becomes all arms. Saw this happen several times with even big league hitters the past couple spring training games I have been fortunate enough to attend in the past few days. Happens at every level. Hitter has got to stay in hitting zone in the case of breaking pitches moving away. Posture in spine angle changes and is dictated after the recognition of pitch but most times with it because pitch is moving too, unless it is a dead straight fastball, which will get mashed every time by advanced hitter. peace, Shep

quote:

Originally posted by troy99:

Ok ...thanks will absorb this awhile. If you get a minute answer questions above about how MLB hitters got here. Interested in if they realize what they are doing (with regard to spine angle) in your opinion. Is this all just a by-product of great reflexes etc.

Here is a story that I picked up from another site (I don't recall who posted it):

"Always, when this conversation arises, I remember a story Don Slaught told me about talking w/ Barry Bonds about his swing. Bonds said he "was hitting all right, but didn't think he was swinging down sharply enough to contact." Slaught told him that in fact, like all MLB hitters, he swung UP to contact. Bonds vehemently denied the possibility of this. Slaught used RVP {Right View Pro} to convince Bonds, and later heard him walk up to ARod at the All Star Game batting practice and say, "Alex, you know you don't swing down to the ball, right?"

There have been other stories about how MLB players sometimes describe their swings but then when you try to match it up against what they actually do on video it is different.

My personal opinion on this is that some learned to be "efficient" through trial and error. Others are students of the game and although they may not use the same cues and words that you see written here, they are very well aware of what they are doing. Same goes for coaches. On the site I mentioned before (baseball-fever.com) there is a professional player (a young guy around 25) who works with Steve Englishbey on this same stuff.

If you know of Robert Stock (Google him if you don't), he also works with his dad on this same stuff so there are high level players/prospects doing this stuff. With the internet being what it is and the availability of high speed videos to look at for regular guys like us, I think you'll see more of it in the future.

The great thing about it is that you are your son's best chance of reaching his potential. As you said, his current hitting coach is off doing other things. No one cares about your son’s success more than you and no one has his attention and access to him the way you do. Knowing this stuff and understanding what high level hitters do is going to give your son a huge jump start over other kids that he’ll compete with. Enjoy the journey.

Joe

quote:

Originally posted by jojab:
There have been other stories about how MLB players sometimes describe their swings but then when you try to match it up against what they actually do on video it is different.

Joe

Ok ,,, agree with this... So the next question.? Is this explosive (all or nothing?) swing the best thing to teach 11-16 kids who will probably never sniff the minor leagues. Do MLB hitters hit this way because they can...while the rest would maximize results another way?

Jason,

Here's my take on your statements/questions in brief one-liner, here ya go>

"may as well start teaching kid the right way early on in development as player".


This will prevent kids from having to go back and learn the mechanics after they reach the higher levels and learn they are not able to compete with those who have learned the correct mechanics. peace

quote:

Originally posted by troy99:

Ok ,,, agree with this... So the next question.? Is this explosive (all or nothing?) swing the best thing to teach 11-16 kids who will probably never sniff the minor leagues. Do MLB hitters hit this way because they can...while the rest would maximize results another way?

From a practical perspective - yes, this stuff does work on kids of all levels. I coach various teams (from travel to rec. ball). Since this is the rec. ball season, I was working with my new rec. team (an 11 and 12 year old league) on this and knowing that I will have a limited about of exposure to them I wanted to get the basics down with them as quickly as possible (season starts next week).

The first practice I just let them hit away while I put a defense in the field and did front toss to them from behind an L-screen from about 20 feet away. I wanted to see what I had to work with. Pretty typical stuff - straight posture, hands to the ball type hitters - every single one of them.

The second practice I talked to them about tilting over the plate and sticking their butts out. I brought stills of various MLB hitters in that position. I explained why standing up straight and dropping the hands to the ball is a poor approach, etc. I demonstrated the two types of swings - what they looked like versus what high level hitters looked like. I also told them I was kicking up the speed of the pitches to get them more efficient in anticipation in facing live kid pitching.

I had each of them hit, while making minor adjustments/suggestions to each of them. Even with me zipping them in there at a greater rate of speed, all but one kid improved -- some quite a bit. We saw a far greater number of line drives and well hit balls over the previous practice. The last kid has zero baseball experience and is lunging in a very severe way so the faster pitching is eating him up (I'll have to work with him a bit separately).

The kids "looked" better, too. It is my belief that although you need to have the correct posture, stay connected and rotate right to have a high level swing, when given a short amount of time and access to the kids, start with posture. Teach them how to adjust to the height of the pitch with their tilts. You get quite a bang for your buck this way.

Joe

Joe,

You are a very valuable asset to this site sir. Please keep coming back because many here need your input because it is "all" 100 percent accurate without a doubt. Would highly recommend your teachings to anybody and everybody I know and would even go as far as to say, if you want success with baseball for your kids, move to where Joe lives in Arizona !!!!! Joe fo sho !!!!

Anyone who calls themselves a Pimp of anything you have to question, so i will... i understand you are on the jock of Englishbey , who i understood was a 1st round pick (what was it, 1972? When did he finally make it to the Major Leagues???) He was a position player, no? What was the report on him for not having not only a career, but also not even one day in the bigs? Oh yeah, he couldn't hit at that level... you should look over scouting reports before swallowing.

Who does he work with that is on the MLB level? You keep talking about Glaus and Chipper who are both clients of ofthe "drop teh heel" guy as was Big mac... why are you using other instructore clients.. use Steve's.

Pimp, you killed counter-rotation? then why with Epstein's client, Glaus, when it starts, you can see just aprt of the digit in the tens place on jersey.. yet once he starts swing, you can see part of digit in ones place? how could that be happening? he is not rotating is he? i mean what else would cause you to see more across the back?

Killed "hinge" in back leg? Does Glaus' back knee never hinge? ever? looks like it does from the get-go on clip....

Killed torque? then why when you look at Glaus' clip, when his belt buckle comes into view, his bat can still be seen behind neck? i mean if his lower body is opened, shouldn't everything else be right there with it - if not, that separation is called torque...

and when you keep talking about the pelvis and the legs are just there.. well what about the psoa major? tensor fascia? sartorious? rectus femorus?, pectineus? those are all large muscles that act on the pelvis - oddly enough they are all located between hip and knee (that is the leg area).

Jojab....... Thanks... good info

quote:

Originally posted by Diablo con Huevos:
Anyone who calls themselves a Pimp of anything you have to question, so i will... i understand you are on the jock of Englishbey , who i understood was a 1st round pick (what was it, 1972? When did he finally make it to the Major Leagues???) He was a position player, no? What was the report on him for not having not only a career, but also not even one day in the bigs? Oh yeah, he couldn't hit at that level... you should look over scouting reports before swallowing.

How many big league at bats did Charlie Lau Jr. have? Think A-Rod cares?

quote:

Pimp, you killed counter-rotation? then why with Epstein's client, Glaus, when it starts, you can see just aprt of the digit in the tens place on jersey.. yet once he starts swing, you can see part of digit in ones place? how could that be happening? he is not rotating is he? i mean what else would cause you to see more across the back?

Would be nice to argue with an educated person. Look up the definition of counter rotation. Ever heard of scap load?

quote:

Killed "hinge" in back leg? Does Glaus' back knee never hinge? ever? looks like it does from the get-go on clip....

Legs are reacting to the hips. Hinge was dead on arrival. Killed completely. Never existed.

quote:

Killed torque? then why when you look at Glaus' clip, when his belt buckle comes into view, his bat can still be seen behind neck? i mean if his lower body is opened, shouldn't everything else be right there with it - if not, that separation is called torque...

No, separation is not torque. Forces moving in opposite directions is torque. I see one force. Nothing working the other direction.

You guys must hate video.

Diablo.... I'm listening ...I am very well versed in what you are saying. Have had much success with a very similar approach.

Love to hear the other ideas. Let them fly... I find it all fascinating.

Great the last few days. Thanks

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Diablo con Huevos:
i understand you are on the jock of Englishbey , who i understood was a 1st round pick (what was it, 1972? When did he finally make it to the Major Leagues???) He was a position player, no? What was the report on him for not having not only a career, but also not even one day in the bigs? Oh yeah, he couldn't hit at that level... you should look over scouting reports before swallowing.
[QUOTE]

By Steve Englishbey's own account, it was his failure to succeed at a high level that drove him to find out why he didn't.

Is every great coach/manager someone who achieved success at the highest level of his sport?

Joe

Diablo:

It's really ashame you're getting defensive and hysterical. This thread was taking a very educational turn. Comments about jockstraps and the like are pretty childish.

You've asked a series of questions, but you've never answered the one I posed about where you see sitting on the back leg prior to contact in the Chipper video. And since you brought it up, where do you see it in the Glauss video? I'm not talking about a hinge which is something different - I'm talking about "sitting" which is what you told us determines the swing plane.

It is a very difficult thing to have your belief system challenged. But to respond by lashing out insures that, instead of continuing to learn, you will simply dig your heels in regardless of what the video shows you. Believe me, this is not the best method for helping your kids to improve. No one has all the answers and many of us are continually searching. That's why some of the posters here are asking so many questions instead of pretending they have all the answers.

jojab, excellent posts.... lots of great information. Certainly hope your able to stick around and contribute further to these boards.

Standard operating procedure.

When there is no counter for the message, shoot the messenger.

Good evening fellas, did you read in the GEN. ITEMS forum under "Frustrated with my swing" thread that we are combative souls that could possibly start WWIII if sought for advice? Can't imagine who that person could possibly be talking about because we are all 's down here...Wouldn't you fellas agree?

Let's get that bunting C-r-a-p out-a-here and start talking about some hitting

Don't want to hear anything about that moving runners over stuff either-That's Japanese baseball...we live in USA!

Put that bunting C-r-a-p up in the Coaches section JK Kevin

Earlier it was said [by Mr. "Eggs " ] that:

" ....I understand you are on the jock of Englishbey."

Uh , just for the record I'd like to point out that this is an incorrect statement.

I never did ---as a baseball player[played for 6 yrs up to AAA for the Astros org.] or football player [quarterback ---approx. 25 scholarship offers]
,nor do I now as a teacher of hitting/throwing , or as an exercise trainer--- wear a jock.

Just wanted to correct the record.

steve

quote:

Legs are reacting to the hips

Ofher, Let me get this straight....

You are saying then that lead leg extension in the weight shift MLB swings is all a result of the middle working.


You believe then that the hip turn generated 2-3/100 before contact that far around the spinal axis can still be powered effectively and totally by middle action.

You believe that lead leg force applied to the ground does not push the lead hip back toward the catcher at this point in the swing and have an effect on the speed of the unhinging of the wrist / bat angle

You believe there is no torque in MLB swings.

You believe plane transition and entering the momentum path of the shoulder turn from above the path serves no physical purpose

You believe that overlapping load and unload through working the middle with a slight weight shift can give the same power as full momentum transfer and head movement forward ...head over belly button to foot plant and lead leg extension.

I read what you say over and over and I believe this is what you have said. I just want to know if this is what you truely believe

quote:

Originally posted by steve englishbey:
Earlier it was said [by Mr. "Eggs " ] that:

" ....I understand you are on the jock of Englishbey."

Uh , just for the record I'd like to point out that this is an incorrect statement.

I never did ---as a baseball player[played for 6 yrs up to AAA for the Astros org.] or football player [quarterback ---approx. 25 scholarship offers]
,nor do I now as a teacher of hitting/throwing , or as an exercise trainer--- wear a jock.

Just wanted to correct the record.

steve

Did you at least wear a CUP?